Pontiac Vibe

Tup

There is no traction control option. Just AWD which is only in Automatic and only with the 130HP engine.

I'm surprised they had one in Toronto. Obviously they are not going to hold them until the 02/02/02 introduction.

I'm curious as to what model it was. I'm thinking it was an XR automatic which is $20,990 plus $1000 automatic and $995 freight. This would retail at $22985. Sounds like the dealer would like to do some price gouging though!

hpulley4

The AWD has the 123hp engine, not the 130hp of the base version. I wonder if you could get 130hp out of it with a custom exhaust, since they claim restriction is the problem?

Not that I want AWD. I would want a manual tranny base model with AC, CD/AM/FM, heated power mirrors, dust/pollen filters. No ABS please.

montanafan

I know there has been some discussion, according to the US brochure: 3yrs/36,000 Bumper-to-Bumper like the rest of GM's cars.

Tup

I have heard or read somewhere that it would have a 5 yr powertrain....but maybe that's just Canada.

If GM has a similar price and only a 3 yr warranty....that will steer people toward the Matrix.

Tup

Do a comparison on the edmunds site here:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/toyota/matrix/fwd4drwagon18l4cyl5m/compare.html?id=lin0010

it brings up some weird stuff. According to the info there, the Vibe is 2 inches higher, has 2 more inches of ground clearance, has more cargo room, gets better gas mileage, is half and inch longer, has less headroom, weighs 20lbs more....etc.

Is this just a case of different people doing the measuring? I would expect a few differences.. but 8 inches of ground clearance?!?!

Also check out the higher shipping and dealer holdback on the Vibe.

Oh, it also says the vibe only has a 3 yr powertrain warranty....weird.

dindak

Interesting article in the Toronto Star today re: Matrix/Corolla pricing. Apparently GM is re-jigging Vibe pricing as Toyota pulled those prices out of no where. They went on to say that all small car makers will be reviewing their pricing in light of Corolla's price cuts. Looks like Toyota wants to gain market share big time now. It will likely be all good for consumers and bad for re-sale of older models.

montanafan

I recall an early post from some one who thought the Vibe was better looking and happy it would have Toyota quality but if the Toyota had 1 year better warranty they would go with the Toyota. Not sure if that contradicts the Toyota quality. Probably be able to buy a one year extended warranty below $400. Tup, are there different warrantys on the other GM products between US and Canada?

hpulley4

For example, Saturn L-series in Canada we get a 5-year 100000 powertrain warranty on top of the 3-year 60000 bumper to bumper while there is no powertrain warranty in the states yet. I'm sure there are other examples.

montanafan

Tup, looked at the Vibe/Matrix comparison (had to get it from the Vibe page). Comparing the numbers to the PDF downloads from both sites and the Vibe brouchure, I found almost every line were they are different to be incorrect compared to the other sources. The weight difference is only 78lbs which is probably standard equip differences or rounding. The height could be the luggage rack on the Vibe. Ground clearence is 8.1 Vibe vs 7.0 Matrix, most likely differences in where GM & Toyota measure from.

lbthedog

Went to the Pontiac site and went snooping. Anybody else check out the green? I'll wait until the production stuff starts showing up but the colors, well I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. By the way, the film done by the "kids" Pontiac sponsored is quite good.

zircon2

I think GM has lots of that puke green left from the Aztek fiasco, and transferred it to the Vine plant. I agree with you - it is terrible. Some of the others look nice on computer -dark red, dark blue (auto show).

Dindak, saw the Star article and am not surpised that Toyos prices probably took GM by surprise. However, I thought the AWD and GT versions were supposed to be within $200 of each other (Matrix USA prices). What gives with the 3-4000 difference in Canada?

dindak

Not sure. Seems like a lot huh? Hopefully GM's revised CDN pricing will be out this week.

If I buy a Vibe it will be a base with auto and power package. Hopefully the Toronto Auto Show will have a car available for sitting in. They should as the car is due to hit dealers in 2 weeks or so.

zircon2

6-speed with sunroof and 180HP. The delay in pricing this thing suggests they are stunned. The same drive train in the Celica cost ca. 35K in Ontario, with tax, so this really is a bargain. The torsion bar rear suspension is a big question, however.

ecarmack

GM's pricing baffles me. The Matrix XR is definetly a better deal over the base Vibe. And if you don't need a wagon, the price difference between the base Vibe and a comparably equipped Corolla CE is $3,000!! That seems like too high of a premium for what is essentially a Corolla CE wagon. And the Toyotas will probably also have better resale values.

I could take advantage of GMS pricing and GM Card earnings to bring the Vibe down to the Corolla's price, but I may just save the rebates for a future purchase, and get the Corolla now. Perhaps GM's price is higher due to the impact of future incentives and GM Card earnings being factored into the price.

Having said all of that, the Vibe and Matrix look like hits, and GM will probably have no problem selling all of the Vibes (is it only 70k?) it can make at the higher price I just spent time complaining about.

montanafan

The Matrix has a $500 advantage over the Vibe (w/Fog Lights & Roof Rack). So the Corolla pricing must not bother Toyota.

ecarmack

I guess the difference between the XR and Vibe is only about $500 to $600. You could tack on another $500 for the Vibe's monotone paint.

However, the options on the Matrix are less expensive. For example:

ABS - $300 Matrix, $500 Vibe
17" Whls - $560 Matrix, $800 Vibe

Seems odd to see Toyota's options cheaper than GM's.

Toyota also gives the option of a lessor equipped Matrix for $15,155. Maybe that will entice more Corolla shoppers to go for the additional utility afforded by the Matrix.

logic1

Have you had a chance to drive a GT yet? The February buff magazines all got down on the engine as needing too many rpms to get max hp. Is this a legitimate quibble, or are they exaggerating?

hpulley4

The GT and base engines are essentially the same until 5000rpms when the second cam lobes are electronically put into play. It doesn't reach 180hp until 7600rpm. I wonder how long those 180hp engines last if you run them up to 7600rpm every shift? I guess we could ask some Celica GT owners.

If I get one, it'll be with the base engine.

logic1

That is the point most reviews are making. (I must say you said in a more understandable maner) An engine like that must be a lot of fun in a tuner. I just wonder if it fits in what Toyota and GM seem to have meant to be more practical day to day vehicles. Maybe there are more tuner sales than I am aware. The craze did not catch on as much in the Midwest as it appears to on the Coasts.

zircon2

Good question. I have not driven it, but the car is supposed to do 0-60 in about 8.5 seconds, not earth shattering, but clearly it can haul a-- pretty well. Mind you it takes premium to do it. If you want to drive like a partent, you will get pretty decent gas milage. When your teenage son asks for the keys, a new engine will show itself and the tach. will never drop below 6000. 2 cars for the price of one.

squiredogs

... or not. Boy, after all the visits to the irritating website, I was hoping I could sit in on this month! Oh well, February is almost here... No one here drove yet, did they? I'm still interested in an Aztek-Vibe comparo, especially with the pick-up (or lack of) of the AWD Vibe and the AWD Aztek.

hpulley4

I've put my email address in to both Pontiac and Suzuki for Vibe and Aerio info. I'm sure they'll start filling my mailbox as soon as there is more info and/or something to test drive. My little commuter car is still driving well but I'm itching to try something new.

canswim

I'm with you hpulley4, I can't wait to try one out. Luckily a friend of our family runs a Pontiac dealership so as soon as one comes in i'm gonna get him to call me.

I am starting to lean more towards the base model and away from the GT for 2 reasons:

1) I am unsure of how much of a difference I will actually notice between the 2. If the difference isnt noticeable until your reach 6000-7000 rpms then I dont think its worth the extra dough.

2) Wonder how difficult it will be to find a GT if they are only producing 15% of the entire stock as GT, and I dont want to be left out in the cold!

Any other thoughts? Opinions are welcome to help me decide, or ease my troubled soul...

thanks

seminole_kev

you might actually prefer the base engine because it developes the same amount of torque, but at a lower RPMs then the GT engine. Should be more "drivable" power for most people than the GT's powerplant.
Just my two cents.

revka

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Sporin

#423 of 424  canswim by seminole_kev  Jan 25, 2002 (08:34 am)

you might actually prefer the base engine because it developes the same amount of torque, but at a lower RPMs then the GT engine. Should be more "drivable" power for most people than the GT's powerplant.
Just my two cents.

This is a popular opinion in the Celica forums. (same engines) MANY people choose the regular GT over the 180hp GTS because the GT is as fast or faster in sedate driving.

I think the new Camry's 2.4 liter 4cyl. should be the base engine in the Vibe/Matrix. It could deal a lot better with all that weight, especially in the AWD version.

Just my opinion.

hpulley4

It is interesting to note that the base Celica GT engine is 140hp, not 130hp. Slightly different compression ratio or other tuning factor, I wonder? Even 140hp would make the Matrix/Vibe more competive (Elantra has 140hp, Aerio will have 141, Focus & Protege have less, etc.).

magnetophone

The Focus and Protege are also lighter cars than anything else mentioned...

dindak

I would (and will if I buy) get a base engine as the upgrade isn't worth the extra bucks. I wish GM had put their own Ecotec 2.2L in as an option but I guess that doesn't offer much extra HP vs the base (130 vs 140).

Still no Canadian pricing on the Vibe, is there?

hpulley4

There isn't much GM about the Vibe. For the most part, it is a rebadged Toyota, not a global platform.

cayennered1

Still don't get how they have the nerve to charge $500 to paint the car like virtually every other car on the road (monchromatic). If they had jacked up the price $500 and made gray cladding a no-cost option people would probably not feel they were being taken advantage of as much as charging extra for what simply is an ordinary paint job.

With the possible exception of a black car, I think the gray cladding sucks big time and would only buy the car monchrome.

But it grinds me big time to shell out extra dough for a basic paint job.

dindak

Actually all the body styling inside and out is GM (Pontiac). There is a lot of GM in the Vibe. In fact the model being sent the Japan is a re-badged Pontiac Vibe. The platform, engine and drivetrain is all Toyota though.

hpulley4

Assuming that the preliminary Vibe numbers are near the final production values...

The manual tranny P5 is 2750lbs or 50lbs more than the base Vibe, with (supposedly) the same hp.

The Focus ZX5 is only one pound lighter, again with supposedly the same hp. The SVT is 50lbs lighter than the Vibe GT but its engine has 10hp less.

Elantra GT is 65lbs lighter with a 140hp engine.

The Aerio sedan in Japan is about 200lbs lighter than the base Vibe, but that's with a 1.5(1.6?)L engine so the 141hp 2.0L model will be heavier, though the hatchback SX may be lighter than the sedan.

Overall, the weights and engine ratings on these 5-door hatches are quite close. Performance will likely be more about how each car is geared and actual torque curves rather than just peak numbers.

If cost is no object and you just want the best performance in a 5-door, a 3000lb 230hp Viggen is probably your best bet ;-)

bayham_jd

Well it's almost the end of January, where is it? I absolutely adore this vehicle. The GT model will be mine when my lease expires this summer..... I can't wait to test drive it soon!!! (I went to the NAIAS this year and I was ticked that I couldn't sit in the vehicle)

While the Matrix may be less expensive on paper, when it comes down to it, I bet GM will run better deals on buying/Leasing....

montanafan

Base Matrix $15,470 / Matrix XR $16,180, First additional feature on XR: Color-keyed door handles, side rocker panels, and power mirrors. Many moldings, panels and bumper covers are painted by the suppliers before delivery to the plant. That is why many inexpensive cars do not have colored bumpers. There is additional costs to making parts in colors, both inventory and delivery, and additional costs at the plant to match multiple colored parts to the right car. Many manufacturers charge additional for costs of two-tone paint, or metallic paint, or pearl paint, etc.. I think a 2%-3% additional charge for a more dramatic and individual look to be reasonable for someone who dosen't like the two-tone effect.

scott31

I priced out a Matrix XRS with NAV system, and a similarily equipped Vibe GT, and the Vibe was almost $2000.00 higher....did someone here say that GM is rethinking pricing? I like the looks of the Vibe better, but not $2000 better.

cayennered1

It's true that some base model vehicles have non body color bumpers and some charge extra for packages that give you color keyed mirrors, etc. But those are usually base model cars at very low prices and paying $16,500 dollars for a car one would hope that at that price you should be able to get monochrome paint as standard. Look at comparable vehicles (Protege5, Impreza Wagon, Focus ZX5) and you'll find all have monchrome paint and are in a similar or even cheaper price catagory than the Vibe.

Look, this is not going to make or break my decision to buy a Vibe. I just think it's another example of marketing errors committed by GM and others which will create a negative where a positive might otherwise be.

People rave about the Protege5 because it comes basically fully equipped and at very reasonable price. Extras include moonroof, abs and side airbags, but not things like pw, pl, pm, alloy wheels, etc. That is what good marketing is all about. Nobody sits there complaining how they have to pay extra for all the basics on a P5. Maybe someday GM will learn.

johnclineii

I disagree. I have not bought and will not buy a Protege5 wagon. Before that I did not buy a Mazda 626. I also have not bought a Honda Civic EX.

ALL for the very same reason. With those cars, to get ABS, you MUST take a moon roof. I don't want one---noise, less headroom, possibility of leaks and I would never use the dang thing. Dealers offer to lower the price such that the moonroof is 'free.' I don't care. It is not a money issue. I want ABS and I DO NOT want a moon roof. PERIOD. I don't care if they pay ME to take it.

But on the Civic, the Protege5, the 626, I could not get ABS, with which I will NOT do without, without a moon roof, which I will NOT accept.

I cannot get ABS without the moon roof, so I bought something else.

Similar issues exist on larger cars, where leather is often mandatory. At least Ford finally saw the light and made it a no cost option on Vics and Grand Marquis.

GM has different packages, but they are by no means alone in requiring extra money (and often options you don't want) in order to get things you want.

cayennered1

This option game is not pretty. I wasn't aware that a moonroof was manddatory to get ABS on a P5. I know ABS comes in a package with side airbags (kinda makes sense). The worst I've seen is Nissan on the new G35. You want a $400 sport package (alloys, sport suspension, alum. trim) all you have to do is buy a $900 Bose stereo, $1000 moonroof and a $650 winter weather package (that would sure come in handy in California, Florida, Texas, Hawaii, etc.).

I still think however, that something as basic as monchrome paint which is not even considered an option on at least 95% of all vehicles should not be something that warrants an extra charge and certainly not $500. If they tacked $150-200 I might just ignore the thing, but $500 is real money.

hudrahead

Was thinking about a Vibe. Saw the pictures of one with the god awful, butt ugly gray cladding (might look ok on a black car) on the base model. OK, so I'll,order a mono paint job. At $500, get real !! Plus I bet ALL the first base cars are gonna be with the gray plastic cladding. Thanks but no thanks. Proto5 here I come !!

hudrahead

scott31

Is anyone considering getting the NAV System in either the Vibe or Matrix. I really want a NAV system as part of my next car, and I wanted a little Mini-SUV type machine, so I guess I'm limited to those two vehicles.

rsparrow

Interesting...According to my brochure, the Canadian Protege5 comes standard with ABS. The moonroof is still an option. Wonder why they wouldn't offer the same setup down south?

johnclineii

from Edmunds US site:

Mazda Protege 5:

OPTIONS:

AB3 Antilock Braking System w/ Side Airbags
REQUIRES Power Moonroof (MR1).

The factory brochure says the same thing. The capital letters, by the way, are Edmunds', not mine (sigh).

squiredogs

I've heard all the talk about factory superchargers that may come out later. Would the AWD Vibe be able to accept a supercharger? I know part of the reason for the weak-willy engine was because of the AWD/exhaust set-up. I don't know how superchargers work.

Would the car then need premuim gas?

What typically happens to gas mileage?

What is the HP/torque gain usually?

How much $$?

My other question is about painted cladding. I like black cars. I'm not sure if I'd like the grey cladding unless the car was white or silver. Does the paint on cladding get ruined easily? I'd want to know, especially for $500!

Thanks

hpulley4

If the exhaust is restricted then it will be difficult to use forced induction to get more power. You could do it, but it would not gain you as much as if you added both a supercharger and a custom exhaust.

Premium gas is usually needed when you run with forced induction, because the high pressures can lead to pre-ignition (pinging) with low-octane fuel.

The gas mileage goes down with forced induction engines. Super and turbo chargers increase the hp and torque per litre of the engine but the hp and torque per gallon goes down, as you must use the engine to power the charger. If it wasn't less efficient, it would be a perpetual motion machine -- no free lunch and all that.

Power gains are quite variable, depending on the setup. With low pressure systems, the gain can be quite low like 10-30% while high pressure setups can increase it 100% or more.

As for cost, I don't know about the Toyota parts, perhaps a Celica group could tell you. For something like the GM 2.2L ECOTECH in the Saturn, Cavalier, Sunfire, Alero, et al, there is an aftermarket supercharger available now for about $5000 USD installed. I expect the cost would be somewhat similar.

vonnyvonce

Undecided myself over Vibe with painted cladding or without however a reasonable point was made on a post at Edmunds long ago that painted bumpers and for that matter painted cladding kind of defeats it's purpose. You do see many monochromatic cars today with serious paint damage to their bumpers that might not be showing if the bumpers were plain gray/black plastic. Cladding's "mission" is to take damage from road debris etc. so as to save the painted finish of the vehicle. It might not look perfect but here form follows function.

n8magic

I just called GM Canada to see what all of the dawdling is about with regards to Vibe pricing, and the nice lady told me that the car wouldn't be out until July/August. (!!!!!)

She said she had been asked this question last week, and when she looked up the information that was what she had been given. I told her that the Matrix (same car) is coming out next week, and GM couldn't be THAT far behind. She told me she would talk to the production department (it's 7:30pm here) and get back to me tomorrow.

Has anyone else heard this?

That, and is the Vibe available with a power sunroof? I can't seem to find that info...

cayennered1

The idea that the gray cladding is designed to protect the bumpers seems a bit far out. If that were the case then why is it that 95% of the vehicles on the road including very expensive models all have painted bumpers. Are we to presume that only cheap low end models (usually the ones with gray plastic bumpers) are concerned about protecting the looks of a vehicle.

In the Vibe's case the gray cladding is arguably to give the car a rough and rugged appearance though I doubt that it does. But to argue this is all about protecting the car's looks doesn't seem very persuasive

Tup

Well, since the factory is in the US (California) then perhaps Canada isn't high on the priority list. I know production is limited. Whereas with the Matrix being built in Canada....gives us an advantage.

It is a 2003 model so technically they don't have to have it out for some time yet. Also, I have yet to see any official advertising as to introduction date (as they have 02/02/02 for the Matrix).

A friend I know who works for a local GM dealership said he heard the Vibe was arriving this spring. He wouldn't necessarily be somone in the know though.

Time will tell.

dindak

Pricing is still not up (says TBD), but this car will be out real soon since it's been added to the list of cars available instead of "coming soon"!!

http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/pontiac/vibe/vibe_pricing.html