Pontiac Vibe

johnclineii

A thought has occurred to me (dangerous, I know!).

Perhaps these companies want to be SEEN as marketing to youth in order to get more of us older middle aged people who WISH we were young (not me) to buy the product? Both Matrix and Vibe marketing are either aimed at twenty-somethings and slightly older, or want to appear to be.

Whaddya think?

Tup

Well, you're not the first to think this....check out this review:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4435&sid=181&n=157

orangelebaron

I am 37. I too find the marketing to a specific age group with the flashy techno website to be condencending and silly.
People will buy what they want. Don't advertise as if you want only college students to buy your product. Don't make me feel like I'm too old for a sporty wagon. Don't make college students feel like they're in play school either.

It's as if the clueless big wigs at GM had their hand in this as they did in the styling of the Aztec.

Maybe I'm just angry because I was interested in this car until I found out that heated mirrors are not available nor do they foldaway. I know that's not good enough reason to not buy a car, but that's what I want. (Tired of walking into my mirror in the garage!)

clyde2000

Since I haven't seen any announcements regarding the price of the Vibe on Pontiac's web site, I was surprised to come across this. I'm not sure if it came up before (it's dated December 3rd), but I'll pass the URL along anyway. Whether or not the source is credible is another story.

http://www.cartrackers.com/Buyers_Guide/News/Automotive_news/PID.564.113121110101.1.html

odman

Canadian Driver seems to like the Vibe. Canadian-specific content includes a block heater!

http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/03vibe.htm

revka

is now available. Here's direct link to First Drive: 2003 Pontiac Vibe, A Good Vibe, by John DiPietro. Happy motoring!

Revka
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Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards

clyde2000

http://www.pontiac.com/vibe/vibe_specs.pdf

dindak

Good amounts of info coming through now. I like most of what I am seeing but I am a little concerned about the prices which seem a bit high. On the plus side there is a lot of standard equipment on these cars and with some luck dealers will be a bit flexible on price come the spring when our lease is up.

zircon2

I think Edmunds hit the nail on the head - modest cladding, great drive trains (except AWD), and high calibre factories. I too think the high end ones may be a tad expensive. There are lots of cars in or lower than that price. Will 17" wheels be an option (seems like yes) as well as the sunroof? I wish they would nuke the Chevy Chase wally-wagon luggage carrier and add the sunroof - their cost is probably nearly the same (ok, within $100). Be intersting to see how hot this car will be - it looks like a winner.

jimjps

In current trim it seems a little disappointing. AWD 0-60 in 11.5 seconds! That's a little hard to accept in a supposedly sporty car. So now we're talking FWD, and vs the competition it doesn't break any new ground.. The high floor (needed to accomodate the AWD) has left a cargo space of 57 cu ft. which is nothing to brag about. The Jetta wagon has significantly more space (and a honkin' 2.8 VR6) and the Focus Wagon has more than 70 Cu ft. So what was the high roof supposed to buy us? Maybe ground clearance? I liked the concept but the reviews and #'s leave me disappointed. I'll have to test drive and see if that changes my mind. PS: AWD hp is lowered because exhaust is restrictive around the rear drive components. Could also be the reason the GT engine is not available on the AWD (too much exhaust restriction for the higher output engine)?

johnclineii

A VR6 with the sport suspension and package will set you back more than 26 thousand US dollars.

I hardly see this as in the same market as the relatively humble Vibe/Matrix.

Why not just compare it to a BMW?

The Vibe/Matrix will do fine for the market at which it is targeted. Probably too fine. I predict price gouging by dealers, at least at first. Can you say Beetle or PT Cruiser? BUt look, too. The market for both those niche vehicles has since cooled substantially. The market for youth coupes is notoriously fickle. Will sport wagons be different? Or, as I asked before, are these two vehicles even REALLY aimed at youth?

dindak

I think you are looking to deep at the marketing. The car will sell itself to many, but the younger people seem to look mainly at Civics and a couple of other imports. Pontiac is simply trying to get noticed by a younger crowd they lost many years ago. If young folks start driving Pontiacs again, maybe they will look at a Grand Prix later in life rather than an Accord. The key for Pontiac is to get some young people in these cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some gouging at the beginning by both Pontiac and Toyota. I hope it doesn't last as I will not pay a premium for a car.

vocus

I really do like the look of the new Vibe/Matriz. I like differently styled cars though. I am about their "target" (23, single male) too. I think they are really cool. What I think they do need, though, is more power. I have driven the 130hp Celica GT engine with automatic, and it's noisy and a little slow to rev in the Celica. They should have also made automatic available for the Vibe GT. That makes no sense to me.

Overall, though, I think the Vibe/Matriz have a promising future here in the US. And if their quality is at the same level as the Corolla/Prizm that comes from NUMMI, then it should be a shoe-in.

ecarmack

has a favorable review of the Vibe/Matrix/Corolla.
A few options are listed for the Vibe:

Power Group $600
Sun & Sound $500
Nav System $1,600

leafguy2727

Geez, I see the debate on where the target market is. The bottom line is this car will be purchased by many people, different ages, incomes, demographics, etc etc. What makes me laugh is how many 18-23 year olds do you know that can afford a new car???? I'm sure there are some out there but not a hell of a lot. In my case my wife and I have a Cavalier, 1996, yeah I know sucks to be me. She takes the train to work everyday so we didn't need a second car, the cavalier is paid for so why have a payment on a second car that we didn't need?

Anyways, now I'm 26, we are expecting our first baby and need a second car as my wife will be off work for a year, I'm sure she won't sit there with no car. Do you think Pontiac was targeting 26 year old males who need a 2nd car becuase they are expecting a baby, need cargo space but don't want mini van or a sportute ??

To be offended how they market a car is a joke.......do you buy a car because the music in a commercial is nice or because it suits your needs, you like it, and can afford it. I'm just saying what do targeted ads really accomplish? Right now the second car will either be a 99 CRV, the Vibe the Matrix or the Impreza wagon.....

Time will tell, just waiting to see what pricing comes out here in Canada!!

jimjps

Actually, a Jetta GLS 2.8 Vr6 wagon is $21K. You can get one from Carsdirect including destination for $20,954. The Vibe GT and the AWD MSRP's that I saw were 19,900 and 20,100 so the VR6 is about $1k more than those models and I think a 5-speed 2.8 Vr6 (not a cheap car because the wagon is made in Germany) is more than a match for the 1.8 Vibe GT and it has more cargo area. The base Vibe is $16.9K. The Focus wagon 5-speed can be had for under $16K. The Focus has even more room then the Jetta but it's acceleration is closer to the base Vibe or AWD Vibe. 0-60 acceleration results I saw were Base Vibe 10.5 seconds and AWD 11.5 seconds. This is sad when my Civic is under 9. Am I going to trade in on something slower than my Civic? I have not seen Vibe GT 0-60 results but would be surprised if it approached the 7's of the Jetta Vr6. I do not doubt the Vibe and Matrix may be sucesses, but I was expecting more room and better performance. They will certainly out sell the somewhat frumpy looking Jetta wagon.
PS The reason I am comparing Jetta and Focus is they are the closest dimensionally, relatively high and short wagons. Vibe/Matrix is a little higher and a little shorter. OK, I am spending too much time on this. Good luck on the Vibe hunting and maybe they will pump up the power before long.

clyde2000

The reason GM (via Pontiac) is trying to market to the 18-35 yr group is quite simply brand loyalty. Whether or not it works the way it did years ago is open to debate, but the idea is that if you have a GM car now, you're more likely to buy one in the future.

Look at the grad rebate (usually anywhere from $750 - $1250) that most manufacturers have. Do you think they really care that you graduated? Well, other than the fact that you might actually have the money to pay for the car because of it, they really don't. They want to you to be their customer again in three years when the lease is up. The best customer is a repeat customer.

Remember how everyone has fond memories of their first car? I know I do, and I'm still driving my 96 Cavalier. Although I pray I never have another Cavalier, I will certainly look at another GM product, and of course I'm seriously considering the Vibe...

zircon2

lots of choices. The base vibe should be affordable and reliable - exactly what you will need. IBID the 99 CRV. We have a 2000 which just turned 50000Km (30,000 miles). Not one defect. Er....mind you I had the back bumper repainted today because my wife closed the garage door on it and sliced it open.

Why doesn't GM ditch the disco web site (www.gmcanada.com) and post some new info on the Vibe? My 56K modem is in permanent pergatory with that site. Why so late in getting canuck prices on the site????

I agree with Dindak... after the Aztek disaster, Pontiac will probably try to squeeze every $ they can out of these cars, perhaps to the point they lose customers to Focus (yuck). I too hope it will not last long, but if it does sell well, watch for the famous mid-year price hike.

johnclineii

Don't you mean famous mid-year price hikeS?

leafguy2727

http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/product/docs/2002/20020103a_matrixp.jsp

Tup

Whoa!! Has Toyota become a little jealous of all the Vibe hype or are they taking advantage of the cheaper cost of making the car in Canada? $14,670.00 for the base with A/C....assume PDI of say $500 so $15,100 vs $16,900 for the base Vibe! Did I miss something here?!?!

kookoolooloo

And the article says the Matrix XRS comes with an automatic too!

Tup

Here are the numbers we have:
Vibe:
Craig Bierley, Pontiac Vibe brand manager, said that pricing will begin at $16,900 manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP), including destination charges of $560. The powerful Vibe GT will start at $19,900 MSRP and Vibes equipped with all-wheel-drive will list for $20,100 MSRP, also with destination charges.

Matrix:
The front-wheel-drive Standard grade with a five-speed manual transmission starts at $14,670. The front-wheel-drive Standard with an automatic transmission begins at $15,470. The four-wheel-drive automatic Standard is priced at $17,115.

The Matrix XR front-wheel drive with a five-speed manual transmission is base priced at $16,180. The front-wheel-drive XR with an automatic transmission starts at $16,980. A four-wheel-drive automatic XR begins at $18,445.

Base MSRP for the XRS ranges from $18,750 for the six-speed manual transmission to $19,330 for the four-speed automatic.

Tup

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/48582/page007.html

That picture looks a little different from others I've seen. I've seen one in person and it doesn't look that squashed down and actually looks quite nice....the more you look at it the more it grows on you.

Tup

should be interresting to see which one sells more...Vibe or Matrix.

montanafan

Most of this weeks mail brings good road test on the Vibe/Matrix , Car&Driver, Automobile, and AutoWeek.Confused with that pricing story, as the printout I have from the Toyota site says Air Conditioning is an option of the Base Matrix. And the Vibe site print out shows it is equiped closer to the Matrix XR (without the power locks & windows). I am sure once production starts and the cars are on the way the web sites will be updated. Actually, they are making their "public debut" at the LA & Detroit shows, so the sites will probably be updated next week.

gweilo

I agree with others here that the 180hp should have an available automatic. If the power of that engine lies outside the normal autotrans shift points, why not adjust the shift points to take advantage of it? Maybe that's what Toyota decided to do with the Matrix XRS. One Vibe reviewer thought the low-end torque was better as well in the 180hp. I guess we'll have to see how much the "dealer-installed" blower will help the base unit. I haven't seen whether that will bring the 130 up to the 180's performance. It will be interesting to see how Matrix/Vibe competition shapes up. Here in Madison, WI there is a street with a Pontiac dealer on one side and Toyota on the other. I'm picturing the dueling price stickers: "Over here!" "No, over here!"
Also, maybe a "traction control" system would have been a better bet since it gets good reviews on other GM makes and (I don't think) it doesn't require re-routing of exhaust. Doesn't Toyota have something similar? I mean, this car doesn't strike me as a true off-roader so the 4WD seems excessive.

vocus

Believe it or not, there are some under-25 folks that can afford a new car out there. I am 23 and on my third new car in 2 years. I will agree that there are not many (only one friend of mine out of about 20 has a new car, and me). But still, the styling and versatility are meant for younger peoples' active lifestyles. That doesn't mean, however, that a car can't be bought by anyone at any age though.

Prices: In reading from the Matrix prices link above, it looks that an automatic transmission will be available with the 180-hp engine on the Matrix, but not the Vibe (from Edmunds' own article). What's up with that??? I didn't think there were hardly any cars that did NOT come with an automatic option, since most cars are sold that way anyway (except sporty cars).

johnclineii

Pontiac determined quite some time back that the shift points were way too high on the automatic for the high revving 180 hp engine. So, there is no auto on the 180hp Vibe. It remains to be seen if there are actually 180hp Matrices built and offered for sale, or what Toyota may have done to the transmission if there are.

hudrahead

Like the looks of the VIBE. Stumbled thru the website. (very poor) Site says, COMING JANUARY 2002 !! Called dealer, "No, not till maby April or May" and "Can I interest you in a good deal on a 4 cyl GMC Sonoma instead" ? Give me a break !! Better yet, give me some salespeople that know what the sam hill they are doing !! No wonder GM continues to lose market share. Their sales guys should be selling refrigerators @ Sears ! On second thought that's probably where they all came from to begin with ( my apologies to Isell on this one LOL)

hudrahead

Tup

Toyota will sell some Matrix's with 180hp Automatics to people who just want the bragging rights or just like the idea of the 180hp. Many will see that it's no deal others won't notice/hear/care.

dindak

hudrahead : Bad salesman indeed!! Unfortunately all dealers seem to have a few of them.

tup : From what I've read, the 130 hp version is the better one to get as the 180 doesn't seem to add all that much punch. It will be interesting to test both back to back.

leafguy : I'm in a similar situation. One baby with another coming in a year or two. Need some economical space with out a mini van stigma!! ;-)

orangelebaron

I read in AutoWeek that you will not be able to put a kayak on the roof of a Vibe because of the Euro style antenna. Is this true? Maybe the antenna can be moved or it bends? If not.... that's pretty shortsighted.

hpulley4

My 2001 Saturn LW200 has a euro-style antenna on the back. It is a highly flexible whip antenna so I have no problems using my roof rack with long items (I got the Thule Rapid Attachment system to put on the factory rails). Knowing GM, if the Vibe has a flexible whip it will be the same part.

Regarding 130 vs. 180hp the Lift, in VVTL-i vs. 'just' VVT-i, only adds to what you get after 5000rpm. My question is, will a salesman let you rip it up like that on a test drive? Will the break-in RPM be over 5000 rpm? I doubt it, so they better have a lot of demonstrators. IMO, the best feature is probably the GT is the 6-speed tranny though I still don't know if it'll be worth all the extra $$$.

Any Canadian prices announced yet? Seems silly that the Matrix will be built down the street from me but the Pontiac will be made south of our border. Prefer to buy as local as possible but Toyota doesn't take my GM card points so...

My '95 Geo Metro was made at the same CAMI plant where the Matrix will be made, and it is a very reliable car like most of the Corollas and Prizms and Swifts to come out of that joint GM/Toyota/Suzuki plant. I hope the Vibe will be as well built. For my personal commuter, the Vibe may make a good replacement for the Metro which will be out of its all but unused extended warranty at the end of May (the headlight switch needed replacement on it, that's all -- oh well, it was very cheap and included roadside assistance for a total cost of not much more than an auto club membership).

Tup

The standard equipment is greater on the base Vibe.

In the US:

The Matrix has 3 levels(not counting AWD): Base; XR; XRS. The Vibe has only base and GT. So the Base Vibe has more options than the base Matrix; things like illuminated entry, that household type plug, drivers seat height adjust, power side mirrors, rear wiper. Now a base vibe has A/C and there are conflicting accounts...both from Toyota as to if the Base Matrix has A/C or not(I suspect not). So this explains some of the cost difference (Vibe $16400 vs Matrix $14670.) ....However...

A Matrix XR is still cheaper(16,100) than a Base Vibe and has base vibe features: A/C, seat height adjust, power side mirrors, household style plug. It also has: Power windows, power doors, leather wrapped steering wheel, variable int. wipers, keyless entry.

So the Matrix XR seems to be by far the best deal.

Also, if you want the all wheel drive version, you can get it in base or XR trim with the Matrix while with the Vibe, you have to get it fairly loaded.

Now in Canada...

We have no pricing yet but it should mirror the US pricing.

The base vibe seems to be the same as in the US but instead of stand alone options, they are mostly in packages.

The Matrix is slightly different in Canada...Base Matrix in Canada has a rear wiper and the XR Matrix has alloy wheels and cruise.

I ordered a base Matrix with the "B" option package which includes power doors, keyless entry, alloy wheels, A/C and illuminated entry.

The AWD Matrix is available in any of the trim levels while a Vibe AWD comes with all the base vibe options plus the 6 speaker 200Watt stereo, power windows and doors, keyless entry, cruise, side airbags, ABS.

I find it ironic that the Vibe which looks more sport utilitish has made the AWD very optioned and costly while the more "sporty" looking Matrix will probably sell more AWD versions.

To research some...check out http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/look_ahead/matrix_specs.pdf

www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicles/ (take out this gap) pontiac/vibe/pont_vibe_flash.html

http://www.pontiac.com/vibe/vibe_specs.pdf

Studying these same but different cars has been interresting. I still think that the Matrix offers the best bang for the buck but it depends on the options you want.

teo

Just finished calling every single Pontiac dealership in the Miami-Ft Lauderdale area and NO ONE has a new 2003 Pontiac Vibe in stock!!!!

GM what's up with that???????

The 2003 Cadillac CTS seems to be thesame exact story....new cars that are a total market launch mystery!!!

teo

Just called Pontiac...they say the car will be available until March or April at the earliest! I told the person that why they had annnounced a lunch date of January 2002 at their website and he could not provide an answer other than it is possibly a *mistake*.

I told him that GM/Pontiac needs to change the launch date of the vehicle, otherwise they are aliniating people.

So it looks like it will be another 3 or 4 months before we see this car.

Unacceptable!

Tup

Don't believe everything you hear about the vibe launce...even from a GM employee. The Matrixs (what is the correct plural of Matrix? Matrii?) are rolling off the assembly lines now and I suspect the Vibe's are as well. I have a Matrix on order and it being built next Friday with a delivery about 3 weeks after. So I think that Production started in January with dealers receiving cars by the end of January or first of Feb. Toyota always has 02/02/02 as the introduction date (which is a saturday).

apatia

that dealers are not well informed about when a vehicle will hit the lots. I remember asking a saturn dealer about the VUE in Nov and they told me it'd be late january or february before the VUE hit the lot. most dealers has testers available by the 2nd or 3rd week of Dec.

as for the vibe, I was really excited about it, but I'm concerned about how reactive the vehicle will be - the vibe is around 2800 pounds and reports hint that the 180 hp engine is not much more effective than the 130 hp engine. my current vehicle is much lighter than 2800 lbs and it isn't that fast off the line w/ a 125 hp engine.

i wasn't expecting sports car performance, but looks only go so far.

dindak

Matrix just started rolling off the assembly line Thursday and Vibe production will like be starting soon (if it hasn't yet). Local Pontiac dealer says end of the month for the first ones to arrive. As for CTS, they should be arriving any time. When they say January, they generally mean sometime in the month, not necessarily the 1st day.

dindak

I read the review in the Saturday star today and it was not all that flattering. The author cited poor handling and "over the top" styling as 2 of his beefs with the car. I guess the Corolla is not a great handling car so maybe Matrix/Vibe will be similar?

zircon2

Hpulley: small correction. Matrix is made by Toyota in the plant near Toronto (also builds the Corolla). The Geo was built in the GM-Suzuki plant in Ingersoll (near London, ON). It now builds the Suzuki Sidekick and Chev Tracker. The 2 plants are completely separate. However, Vibe is being built at the GM-Toyota NUMMI (?) plant in California. Both Vibe and Matrix plants produce very high quality vehicles.

petl

dindak, Gerry Malloy and the Star are not Toyota fans. Ever since Toyota refused to participate in the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC) awards, they have not been in the Star's good books. Toyota stated the award system is flawed. This did not sit well with the Star, which places a lot of importance to the awards and spends a lot advertising dollars on the process. I can't remember the last time Jim Kenzie, one of their prominent editors, has even reviewed a Toyota product (he used to review them frequently).

Translation... Vibe = Toyota. Therefor don't expect any glaring reviews from Mr. Malloy. He may be right in his assessment but I would take it with a grain of salt until you read it from an unbiased source. i.e. Consumer Reports

dindak

You may be right. To be fair, he did say at the beginning of the review that the younger writers seemed to like the cars and seemed to elude to the fact that it just wasn't his cup of tea. I guess he was looking for sports car handling here and was disappointed not to find it.

In the end, the Vibe has great styling IMO and the Toyota engine should be a good one. Toyota makes good four bangers.

zircon2

I wouldn't trust ANYTHING published by the Star. The Vibe will be a hit for old Pontiac, especially if they improved the 6-spped manual. My friend has a Celica GT and has complained in past that the tranny is tricky to shift (he's a mechanic and car nut). One of the Vibe reviews said it supposedly shifted better than the Celica, something a Pontiac guy claimed credit for. I hope they did improve it. Some people are also concerned that the power is not in the useful range, but it's o-60 time is supposed to be in the low to mid 8 - pretty good if not awesome.

storyteller

For what it is worth, the plural of Matrix is Matrices. I only see that being used by English majors and serious students of Latin. Matrixes is also correct and is what most people would say.

odman

I agree, the Star is flakey. The National Post's Driver's Edge is better than Wheels.

What was it about the AJAC methodology that Toyota didn't like? I've heard this said before, but have never heard the real reasons.

dverespey

Production is currently in ramp up....not sure when your local dealer gets one.

leafguy2727

Price looks amazing. Should be interesting to see what Pontiac does now.

http://www.newswire.ca/releases/January2002/07/c0613.html

dindak

It will be at least $900-1000 more as Vibe comes with A/C standard.

Still have not seen any CDN Vibe pricing.