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Comments
My Envoy was built in 4/02, and I have had it exactly 10 days and 360 miles.
I don't know if it was robbing me of power, because I was afraid to give it any gas -- in a nutshell, the noise is embarrassing. This may just be a coincidence, but when I was able to get enough speed for the tranny to shift from 1st to 2nd, the noise went away.
Also, because the fan is going bonkers, it seemed to prevent the engine from reaching normal operating temperatures as quickly as normal.
It would appear as if GM is still searching for an answer. I have yet to contact my dealer, because I want to see if it will rear its ugly head again, but I am sure they will be hearing from me.
I had a thought. I wonder if there is a bad temperature sensor somewhere, since it has an electronic clutch on the fan. Just I thought.
This may teach me to not ask questions, as I feel I have jinxed myself. I will try to keep everyone posted.
JAW
Still no repeat of the problems since the reprograming other than two back to back days.
I guess I just wait and see....
I hope that everyone is enjoying their triplets. I've been reading these posts concerning shifting speeds and PCM reprogramming.
I'm curious what the normal RPM ranges for first to second, second to third are under normal driving conditions, and, if you got the PCM reprogrammed, how have the rpm ranges changed?
I didn't think 3000 RPM was excessive for a six-cylinder engine -- my last car was an 8 cyl stick-shift Ford Bronco and I tended to drive it in the mid-rpm range as that was where it got the best torque (engine had 180k miles so I needed to push it to get it to go), so I have no idea what acceptable shift ranges on the six should be.
Thanks for all the information!
-Jeff
I am hoping someone can give me some insight regarding some problems that I have noticed with my wife's TB LTZ (Build date 05/01). Let me know if there are any known solutions ...
1. Loud Clunk when making a tight turn
2. Loud buzz/whine noticeable from both inside and outside the vehicle (sounds like electrical noise)
3. Cooling fan is making a load ticking noise when running
4. Very loud wind noise at highways speeds (crosswind). Sounds like the door is pulling away from the seal. Not the roof rack issue.
Sorry if these issues have been addressed and I am asking for repeat info, but with no search mechanism on these message boards it is hard to find.
Thanks,
Kent
Thanks.
Please advise.
Thanks.
If the vehicle is fully warmed up, there would be no need to go through the slow approach since any "left-over" values would likely still be acceptable. Obviously, this is just a layman's theorizing.
Just returning home from a 3 day work related trip to Detroit, I find that I am wayyy behind in these postings once again.. BUT.. that's good .
As things currently stand, the local dealership still has possession of my vehicle (6 days).. No answer to the cold acceleration issue and no info on the posted recall on this site. I informed my service advisor that I would stop over to the dealer on Monday and take the servicing technician out on a test drive in at least THREE new Envoys to prove that my problem is NOT normal. I will update you all on my findings.
Dead Battery: I read message # 5585 from vplaza concerning his dead battery experience. I also had my battery conk out on me several times in the past. When I took it to this new servicing dealership several weeks ago, they simply replaced the battery and so far, so good! The interior lights are very bright in the mornings and everything!
Security Light: I noticed that my security light does operate as stated in the manual. When I open the driver's door, the security light does indeed flash. If I lock it using the key fob or door lock switch, it goes to a steady light (as opposed to a flash). Also, I think (can't be for sure since my vehicle is not in my possession currently) that once I close the door, the light stays illuminated for 30 seconds and then it turns off??
Calibration Question: I read the posting from envoyenvy1 that listed the gm website for posted calibrations. I printed the calibrations that were listed for my vehicle and will compare them against a new one that I find today on the dealer's lot. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that the calibrations listed on my printout are those only from when the vehicle was built and shipped correct? The listing is not automatically updated whenever the dealership performs a flash correct?
Last but not least.. I wanted to share some info about a funny experience I had yesterday. Well, after my conference had ended in Detroit on Friday, I decided to cruise on over to the local Acura dealerships to take a look at the MDX. Much to my dissatisfaction, two out of the three dealerships did not have any models available to look at. All were pre-sold at full MSRP. I talked to a local dealer in Novi and he stated that they had 5 new MDX's hit the lots but were all sold. He also informed me that I could come over to view them if I wanted, so I did! I was immediately greeted by the guy whom I had spoken to over the phone. He was even more arrogant in person, constantly stating that the ACURA is the most "luxurious and highest quality vehicle ever made in this category." Well, lucky for me, a GOLD MDX had been prepped and brought onto the showroom floor since the deal slipped through the cracks, so this gave me the perfect opportunity to check it out. Of course playing the naive role, I often asked him to elaborate on stuff that I already knew about just to get his perspective which was completely arrogant and condescending to every other vehicle out there including my Envoy. BUT.. the funniest part is that I constantly had him on the ropes when I talked about the features of my Envoy that the MDX did not have. He was quite shocked and I believe that he was even a little impressed when I informed him that my SUV had the factory DVD in addition to electronic controls in the rear for HVAC and radio functions.
All in all, the Acura was a very nicely built vehicle.. full of quality type immentities such as the velvet lined coin holder, etc. But I immediately noticed that it did not have nearly as much legroom in the front as my Envoy, nor did the seating position feel as comfortable as the Envoy. I think that Acura has a good product, but this is 2 years on the market, I believe that they will make some serious changes for 2003 to compete with the newcomers. Since I "wasn't allowed to drive the MDX without purchase commitment ($500 deposit)," I didn't have a chance to experience the navigational system but it looked nice!
My .02 cents!
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
I'd have bought it if they would have budge on price, but it's a personal thing. I grew up in the biz and I'll be darned if I'm paying sticker. Money wasn't the issue but principle.
When I looked at the MDX it was nice, but not my style at all. The manager commented that it was also selling for list and above and that if I wasn't interested in paying that than I shouldn't even look for a ride.
I told him, I wasn't interested and that I'll probably end up spending more on another vehicle and be just as happy.
IMO, they can keep them. I understand supply and demand. Heck we sold Olds Aurora's for above sticker and held the same attitude, but at least back then it was a pretty unique vehicle for a 1994 ride.
The MDX and TL lack style but that's just me.
Anyway, good luck with your hunt.
tim
2 syllables, 5 letters: Honda, Acura, Enron, just a coincidence?
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
Can someone who has post the VIN on the forum?
Thanks.
gmbuypower.com
If you are experiencing hesitation (after coming to a complete stop) please don't take "no" for an answer - it took me 9 months to get them to listen to me. Each time they returned my truck they stated there was nothing wrong.....then I called Montvale NJ (MB CORP) and things got done."
I will post photos and dyno results soon.
Scott
Oh well.. My hands are tied, I guess I may just have to live with it :-(
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
Did you know it was basically the same vehicle as the other?
Why did you choose it over the other?
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Review your vehicle
Could it be just you.
I never put any vehicle into motion immediately after starting. I take time to fasten and adjust my seatbelt, adjust hear/AC, mirrors, and so on and to get settled into the seat.
Probably at least 30 seconds, or more sometimes. During this time, the vehicle rpm will wind down from the initial start fast idle, and all warning lights and such go out.
I always park in a garage so I have to back out, so I then place the vehicle in reverse and slowly idle out and down the drive way. Then into forward and away I go.
I've never experienced any hesitation, cough, sputter, lack of power or anything else. Some times I get the fan noise, but it quickly subsides.
Could it be traction control cutting spark advance cause it thinks your wheels are spinning?
Could it be just a cold sputter? Impossible on a FI system, but common on carb equipped machines.
I know you feel this is a major defect on your vehicle, but what would happen if you let it idle for a bit longer, say a half minute, or parked where you had to back up first?
Just a thought.
I have a 2WD Bravada, so there is no really good comparison. But I don't have traction assist.
If you really want to dump your Envoy, I'll give you 50 cents on the dollar, as it looks to be a piece of junk. (again, don't get insulted here)
WichitaGreg
Loving his Bravada more and more each day.
Since I am also experiencing this problem (vehicle is only 2 weeks old), I can tell you that I don't think letting it idle will make a difference. The very first time it happened (last Friday), I was leaving work. The parking garage I park in has the corkscrew type ramps to get to street level. While going down this, the vehicle is basically at idle (in D) and gravity is providing all of the forward motion. This was not enough to cause the fan to 'disengage' and everything go back to normal.
I also had the fan/acceleration issue yesterday, in the afternoon. The vehicle had been sitting (garaged) approx. 6 hours. I haven't contacted the dealer yet, but I am making detailed documentation of conditions (date, time, how long the vehicle had sat, where the vehicle was (garage, etc), and what the conditions were (ambient temperature, general humidty conditons (low, moderate, rainy))). I just want to give them as much info as possible.
IE and medolark (and everyone else this problem affects), I will be sure to post here if/when I have any new info. It is frustrating.
On a side note, GM still has not fixed the sunroof/headliner issue. My "velcro" does not stay attached. Looks like I will be adding my own. Hey, is that considered a mod?
Other than all that, I do thoroughly enjoy the Envoy.
JAW
Anyhow, several of us have been experiencing this issue. I have done everything under the sun from letting my vehicle idle for 20 minutes, etc. and the problem still persists. I guess the issue is hit or miss with each vehicle because I have actually driven several that do not have the hesitation problem that I am experiencing. Additionally my vehicle is a 4x4, not a 2wd.. If that was the case then I would have settled for a regular station wagon.. :-)
Lastly, hmmm.. .50 cents on the dollar eh? Maybe you are a little sore because you probably paid more for your vehicle than I did???? Sucks to be you!
PS: "(take that as it was meant)"
Anyway, I had the fan come on the other day on a cold & rainy morning. I shut it off and pulled the cooling fan fuse. I started it back up and the fan was still on. This seems to indicate that it's a cold fan clutch fluid issue as opposed to an electronic issue. Not a big deal in this case.
I don't know if this helps to clear things up or adds to the confusion.
It's barely 50 degrees and real damp and rainy. Seemed much worse outside after work vs inside my garage. I barely notice it in dry weather. I've yet to play with the IAT sensor, but it could be related to that?
I really don't worry about it much. As I drive off for the first time, which is all that it lasts, I just floor it and take off a bit hard. It's always gone away completely after the initial take off. I don't even take first gear past 4k rpms. Thus by the time I go 1/8 mile down my street and turn right, it's gone.
tim
IExplore2000@aol.com
This morning, the slow start routine advocated by dshepherd did not prevent my fan from engaging. I didn't wait a full 10 seconds, but I did wait for all the lite checking, etc. to be finished. I guess I am far less concerned about the fan than the hesitation.
So far I have not found anything except a little driving that will eliminate the hesitation. I keep coming back to the "learning" software in the machine. I think it must have to "relearn" to operate correctly every time it encounters an engine temperature less than some value. Why doesn't everyone have it? - Maybe Noller2 is right- the software is sensitive to driver habits. No matter the cause, the performance is totally unsatisfactory for a $35K vehicle.
I love the look and styling of the truck, but CANNOT fathom the thought of paying over 30K for a vehicle, and having hesitation problems and what not.
Besides losing my $100, would there be any other penelties for not taking delivery of this vehicle?
I understand that alot of people praise the twins, but unfortunately the minor problems that the twins are plagued by are really stressing me out.
Thanks Mike
I can completely understand how you feel, heck I would be very apprehensive myself about taking delivery of a new LTZ after reading these postings, BUT just as someone mentioned before in this forum, "You have to take them with a grain of salt." I am sure that there are plenty of happy triplet owners out there that are not active users of this forum. What you are seeing here on this forum are a bunch of triplet owners attempting to discover, correct or address certain issues that we consider to be important in our eyes. In addition to the latter, there are plenty of happy owners posting to this forum as well! Personally, I think that I would be at a total loss facing the service department if it wasn't for the comradely that the individuals to this forum have for each other.
I honestly think that the Envoy is a wonderful vehicle for the money. You cannot beat the feature content that comes with these babies! BUT.. just as the trend continues, in most cases, if you take the plunge on first-year models, you might as well consider yourself as a "personal prototype tester." This could be a good thing because based off of "popular demand," GM will probably make dramatic improvements the triplets for 2003 based off of customer problems, issues, concerns and research in general. Of course, for those that had the privilege of being "prototype testers," they will in exchange have some of the most common issues/concerns addressed (i.e. tailgate gasket, new calibrations, ECAS muffler filter, etc.).
As far as canceling your order, you "may" loose your $100 deposit but that's about all that the dealership could do besides being upset and giving you the speal about them ordering a vehicle that they didn't want and have to sell. I've been down that road before in 1996, forfeited my $100, earned a couple of enemies at the dealership and just plain ole walked out. Give it some serious thought, not everyone is the same! Some complain loudly while others do not complain at all!
Good Luck!
IExplore2000@aol.com
PS: If you were to ask the question, "Would you buy a triplet again if you had the chance?" I would respond with a YES, but I would wait for a 2003 model. WHY? Because I am too much of a stickler to just "live" with issues that bother me, but at the same time, I don't have enough time in my schedule to keep visiting my local service department.
-mike
Mike .T.
Hesitation. Is it annoying? Yes, the 2 times it has occurred. Is it a deal breaker? In my mind, no. Buying now, toward the end of the model year, a believe a number of issues have been addressed (running changes in production). There are so many other good things on the triplets that FAR outweigh the bad, IMO. I would think that a good number on this board would agree. Heck, IE2K has been fighting this for a while, and he still would buy one (albeit a 2003).
If you think you will enjoy it, go for it. I too was worried about all of the problems that I had read about (just bought at the end of April) but decided in the grand scheme of things, they were mostly cosmetic.
Hope this helps.
JAW
I have the Envoy, build date 02/02, purchased 03/30/02 and just under 2000 miles. Have not had one single mechanical problem with mine (at least so far). The tailgate gasket issue was my only problem which I had taken care of within two weeks of purchase.
I wouldn't blame anyone backing out of a purchase after reading the last two months of postings here. Keep in mind, the number of those having problems is actually small - they just post frequently about their problem and ongoing attempt for a correction. I think that's good. Keeps the rest of us owners informed of what to look for, allows everyone to put in their two cents trying to come up with a cure. Squeaky wheels get greased. Besides, it makes them feel better to know they are not totally alone with their issue. I know I'd feel the same and did with the gasket issue.
Long story short, my suggestin is go ahead with the purchase. I think you'll be pretty impressed EVEN IF you do end up with some of the problems mentioned here. Eventually they will get taken care of (I think).
Good luck and if you don't cancel, enjoy!
Paul
I posted this a while ago, but just for reference, my '95 Jimmy has always had a loud fan noise at start-up. It fades away after about a block. I just heard a late model blazer pull into the service area with the same noise. Maybe I'm a little more accustomed to it, but I've never heard the TB sound nearly as loud or the frequency of occurrence like the Jimmy. If it's just the noise and none of the other symptoms I wouldn't be too worried about it.
The cooling fan is an electric fan. However, it is still hydraulically clutched. When it engages, it can be pretty loud. It sucks in extra cooling air when the engine is under heat stress--usually when driving in harsh conditions such as off-road. Ironically, the "fast idle" and "hesitation when cold" are not a result of the current environment, but rather the conditions of the engine when you shut it off. If you shut it off within about two minutes of having the fan active, the fan stops with some of the fluid still engaging the fan. The only way to purge the fluid, and thus disengage the fan, is centrifugally. So when you start your truck up next, the fan engages and spins until the fluid is purged. This takes about 30 seconds. Since the engine powers the fan, it takes horsepower from the engine when running--about 10%. Thus, if your fan was engaged when you shut off the engine, it will activate the next time you start the vehicle, causing the loud roar--often mistaken for a fast idle--and will require more gas to accelerate to overcome the loss of power. Run it for a block, and everything should run normally.
That would help explain why noller2g hasn't had the problem with his slower startup routine (I'm assuming he pulls into his garage as carefully as he pulls out of it), and iexplore2000 has experienced it more with his less patient routine.
My friend said they sent out a new calibration last November that should help minimize the problem. I told him that some folks here are still having the problem, and that in fact at least one of them was driving the new TB EXT, and he promised to see if he could find out more. I hope this helps.
2. Lower fascia - you may want to have your dealer epoxy the push pin rivets in the closed position to prevent them from loosening.
3. Wind noise - check all of the weatherstripping to see if it is loose. Reposition or remove the crossbars for the roof rack. Also check the rubber gaskets inside the front quarter panels (you can see them when you open the door and look in at an angle)
4. Wandering Mirrors - effects vehicles with memory seating... the mirrors forget their memory presets and wander whenever you push the key fob or start the car. There's a TSB for this, and they will replace the mirror actuators.
5. Wheel binding - I haven't experienced it, but some think it's the transfer case, other's the eaton gov locking diff...
6. Hesitation - Many theories here as well...
7. Paint - Some have complained of Orange Peel. Others have had problems with rocks/sand stripping paint on lower rear fenders. Personally, my paint is holding up very well and looks great! It's just impossible to keep the indigo blue clean.
8. Spontaneous shutdowns - Recall issued for Fuel filter seal and ecm tsb programming updates.
Can't think of any more, but I'm sure they're out there. Check out www.timlauro.com Tim has a pretty comprehensive site, and even some of the TSB's he was able to round up while we had access to the service GM site.