I believe it's the same rate per hr. but the Manf. specifies less hrs. for the same job than the dealer would charge a customer. Either way the dealer gets less $ from the manufacturer than from paying customers, at least at the 2 dealers that I am very good friends with.
The hinges are actually mig welded from the inside this takes the sandwich of hinge plate inner doors skin and underlying reinforcment plate/door beam and fuses it by welding with wire feed at high amperage in four (4) places per hinge. If bent please let a professional realign the door as much can be damaged including popping the outer door skin. Do us caution. These things are to pretty to wreck.
gmdrone: Can you help us growing number of Bravada owners with the binding in turns issue? It's a transfer case (or a rear end) issue that I haven't seen a fix for yet. My dealer is still waiting for parts and may have to repurchase my vehicle if they don't come in soon. Heck, they don't even know if this will fix the problem. Any help is appreciated.
I realize they get reimbursed, but tell me the dealer you worked at wouldn't rather be doing non-warranty repairs? As Paisan suggested, they often get shafted on the hours allowable for billing, so they're either going to do a half-[non-permissible content removed] job on the repair, take a loss, or refuse the repair altogether.
When I was a SM, I had control over the tone of the shop and required all personel to treat warranty work as important and profitable. Warrany repairs were our best customer, List price on parts, even small jobs at the maximum rate. The problem lies with management not controlling what the shop does and doesn't do and this reflects on the quality and handling of warranty customers. Now we say how does the customer have control over this? Well some research about the service dept. at the prospective delaership should be done before buying there, like their CSI scores on customer warranty work which they should be glad to reveal if they are doing a good job in this area. Remember we can buy a vehicle anywhere , but when it comes to fixing it , this seperates the "men from the boys"
Point well taken... Any good dealer will make more in service than they ever do in sales anyway. Personally if I don't get what I want service wise, I will go to another dealer! One thing I've learned though, no matter how pissed off you are, don't ever loose your cool. You will get absolutely nowhere... I try to be as nice as possible. Besides, it's so easy to scapegoat GM when something goes wrong in the first place =p
Thanks for the phone call. I can see you care. Also thanks for the in-depth explaination of the construction of the door attachments.
That makes sense. The plate to body connection is not visably welded, and I can see how the service writer would describe the fix as a bonding. All of this is at the "A" pillar, not on the door.
The body shop never called me back, so I will go down and see them. I'm sure they have a way to push the door back, as the alignment and fit is good as new. I'd like to know how they did it.
I want to say again that my 2002 Bravada has been my best new car experience in many years. Probably the 84 Subaru was the only trouble free vehicle, and even it needed a cam belt under warranty.
I traded a 2000 Lincoln LS for the Bravada. I traded a 1998 Mazda MPV for the Lincoln LS I traded a 1994 Crown Victoria for the Mazda. I traded a 1990 Mazda MPV for the Crown Vic I traded a 1986 Subaru GL for the Mazda I traded a 1884 Subaru SW for the GL I traded a 1983 GMC S15 Pickup for the Subaru, and that S15 was the biggest POS I ever had. Came with 3 recalls, and coupons for two more in the glove box. Leaked oil from day one, had the rear main seal replaced at 6000 miles and I traded it.
During this time I also had a 91 Nissan PU, traded for a 94 4x4 Ranger PU, traded for a 94 Lincoln Mark VIII that needed a new tranny at 55,000 miles, traded for a 99 F150 5.4 2 WD that needed a new motor at 33,000 miles so I traded it for a paid for 1985 S15 Jimmy 4x4 that has 165,000 miles and leaks from every orifice.
But my baby is my 2000 Honda Valkyrie Interstate. 6 carbs, 6 cylinders, 100 HP and 100 FtLbs of Torque.
Yep have to agree, I jump from a dealer as soon as their service rubs me the wrong way. Til I find a place I can trust and does good work. Not *all* dealers do poor/rushed warranty work, but a lot of them do.
Last week I posted a list of our Envoy problems. All have been addressed, thank you GM, but now there is another. The anti-lock braking system light came on and stayed on, until the engine was stopped and restarted. Looks like its off to the dealer again. Any ideas on this one?
Why are there so many problems with these cars? I onw a 2000 sunfire convertible, a vehiche that cost half of an Envoy, and its never in the shop, even after 24,000 miles.
Thanks for the info, cmack4. I must be a total idiot, though, because I registered, and still couldn't find any TSBs. I think you do need to be an owner, because the site gives you an option to enter your VIN for additional content. It looks like I won't be able to get the scoop for my brother-in-law.
Maybe that's why GM doesn't want to post this information, BTW. In this competitive age, it costs a lot of money to launch a vehicle. Why would you want to taint it with negative information? Shoppers already are afraid of the product after reading reviews from Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, and forums like this where people tend to gripe more about their problems than hype the positives. They tend to ignore positive review like that in Motor Trend, seeing it as marketing or favoritism given to advertisers.
From a marketing perspective, I can't blame GM for wanting to avoid shoppers from reading the TSBs, but I can't understand why they wouldn't let current owners have access to them, like it looks like Audi does. I think that kind of trust and service would help maintain customer loyalty--hard to do these days.
BTW, I also applaud Mark (GMDrone) for working with this board. I remember when Kay tried to represent Oldsmobile in the Bravada launch, a number of people were a little hard on her--especially after the demise of Olds was announced. It's hard to try to help people when they are more interested in "yelling" at you. cmack4 is right: be nice! It'll help Mark keep trying to help.
previousamigo, The factory "shield " package consists of the already present composite front shield that has the swing open plate for oil changes, a steel radiator guard and a composite gas tank guard. I would recommend checking with GM for just the tank guard because my 4x4 LS already has the radiator and front shields. I've also got the GM molded mud guards, they mount easy and do a pretty decent job of protecting the sides. IIRC the total of the order for these was ~$265 inc shipping. The shield pkg part #12497685 $140+shpg hth, Tim http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/
Haven't popped in lately. Update on my 02 Bravada.. it's still humming along fine. Had one issue last month where the front end was creaking a little. It was resolved and other wise it's been clear sailing.
I hear the Bravada is done after this year and will be changed over to a Buick. Does anyone know for sure? If true, my Bravada will be very rare in Canada as this was the first year it was available here.
As promised, I wanted to update you all on my service visit for those whom are interested.
Well, I did receive my Envoy back late Thursday evening (8pm). I brought her home and then went to work (90 miles away) on Friday in my Grand AM. Yesterday, upon returning home from work, I was very anxious to see if the cold acceleration issue had been resolved so I immediately jumped in my suv and was quickly greeted by the same hesitation problem! I re-checked my service order to see if they had performed the program update. The service order read:
"Customer states that there is a delay when shifting from R to D in the morning. Needs possible calibration 12575341. Customer requested to check to see if PCM is up to current calibration and found needs update for excessive noise. Updated PCM per total customer satisfaction and test drove. All okay at this time." (not exactly close to how I verbalized the problem to the advisor, but OKAY??)
In this case, my vehicle had sat over 24 hours before I test drove it late Friday evening, so of course the engine was quite cold. All in all, the hesitation problem still exists and I must say that this issue leaves my stomach a little uneased. I just don't understand why my 02 Grand Am GT runs so much better than my Envoy and cost over $15K less?
I have decided that the best thing for me to do is to drop off the vehicle again on Monday morning, explaining to them that I am willing to give them another 3 or 4 tries to get this problem resolved. If they cannot figure out what is causing this problem, then I have no other choice but to pursue the possible "buy back" option through the GM Customer Satisfaction Center. I really hate to have to go this route, but I really have no other choice in the matter? Especially when I feel that this is not how the vehicle should run after test driving several others.. It just doesn't add up??
Also, to be certain that I wasn't "imagining" the problem being present, I tried it again today. When I started it up again this morning, I was quickly greeted with the same hesitation as experienced before. I personally don't know what to think about this, except that maybe the dealership did something wrong with they applied the PCM update 12575341 that has helped others with similar (i.e. slow accel. problems due to cooling fan) issues? I honestly appreciate the professionalism, courtiousness and eagerness that this new servicing dealership has displayed to me concerning my issues. I would definitely recommend them to anyone. Personally, I am not faulting them for not trying to resolve my issue because I honestly believe that they are definitely trying!
Well.. that's all folks.. Any additional questions, comments or concerns would be greatly appreciated... "haaa--gazooooooo--choo!!" <--------- me sneezing in an attempt to summon our GAZOO!
Thanks Everyone!
Sincerely.. Dazed and Confused IExplore2000@aol.com
PS: The servicing dealer did install the new mirror actuators.. so far, so good! Additionally, they also installed the ECAS muffler filter, now I can only here a faint 'psssss' sound when the compressor is releasing pressure!
It's trye, RIP Bravada. However,instead of make it a Caddy, the bosses at Gm decided to make it a Buick and give it a V-8! supposedly, they will be the only one with the new v-8 that had been promised for the Envoy.
I also Wonder if this means Buick will dump the unerpowered RDV?
As I mentioned before, the majority of the problems that have been identified, are problems that can be addressed by reprogramming of electronic modules. Sure your sunfire may cost less, but I'm sure it doesn't have 1/4 of the electrics that are in the triplets! The triplets really have some ground breaking electrics. No distributor, coil over plug technology... No traditional throttle/brake linkage, again electrically controlled... AWD/4WD wheel sensors to manage torque split between front and rear... and a whole lot more! True this has caused more problems then normal, but it also makes correctiong a lot easier! Electronic components on average are far more durable then their mechanical counterparts as well!
Well a month after reprograming my Envoy I had no further fan noise/acceleration problems in the morning, until TODAY! Started it this morning and the roar of the fan greeted me once again. Put it in drive and sure enough lack of power transfer and fan noise even louder. How does a reprograming fix work for a month and then fail again? I'm beginning to wonder if the computer chips in these cars have memory leaks that are causing alot of the computer related problems.
Guess I'm taking it in again Monday! Might as well have the wind noise checked again, although I'm sure they won't find anything again! Have taken roof racks off, had weather stripping replaced, nothing helps.
I traded in a 6 year old Ford Explorer that NEVER had a visit to the dealer in the 6 years I owned it. Now I buy a car that list for $37,000 and it doesn't work right in the morning and sounds like a wind tunnel on the freeway. What a deal!!!
For those that would state "well, it's a first year model"... That's a bunch of BS and a poor excuse for bad quality from the manufacture.
Yes, this fall, the Olds Bravada name will disappear but the vehicle itself will be back as a Buick. Called the Buick Rainier, it's basically the same SUV but with a more Buick-like nose and it will only come with the aluminum 5.3 liter V8 that will be available in the TB EXT & the Envoy XL later this year.
Wow.. I can understand your frustration since I am kind of in the same boat, however I promised myself that I wasn't going to get upset about anything just yet.. hence I am willing to give the service department several tries to get the problem corrected, but if they can't.... well that's a different story.
Also, I MUST laugh when you stated " I traded in a 6 year old Ford Explorer that NEVER had a visit to the dealer in the 6 years I owned it." Funny that you should say that because just TODAY I was telling a friend over dinner this evening the same exact thing! "I had my 2000 Ford Explorer V-8 Limited for 2 years and not one visit to the service department except for oil changes!" I am not saying that the FORDS are 100% better, but I was truly impressed with the reliability of the FORD. When I sold it to a couple in Cleveland in January, I was very proud to hand them all of the necessary records that went along with the truck. They were impressed at the build quality and the high quality interior pieces that it had. Now if I had to personally sell my Envoy to someone, I would not be able to look them straight in the face and tell them that my Envoy has been very reliable. Sure it hasn't broken down or anything, but the number of service visits are becoming quite an inconvenience for me since I work 90 miles away and the service departments are not open late. That makes dropping off and picking up my SUV quite a chore!
I do wish you the best during your service visit on Monday, I will be at my servicing dealership as well. Hopefully they can get to the bottom of this soon enough... If not, I may have to begin thinking about my next SUV of choice and believe me, I think that it would be something in the foreign car market. The MDX is starting to look good to me all over again! Ha, ha!
Envoyenvy1- I'm very sorry to hear it did not work. I hope I didn't jinx you because I was thinking about your "solution" today and strategizing how I could get my dealer to do what yours did.
I really would like to hear from anyone who thinks they have actually gotten this fixed. Perhaps those who have had fan noise/cold acceleration/hesitation problems and had something done that "fixed" the situation can reply with what was done and how long the fix has held up. That could be very useful to those of us still struggling with this thing. I'm not trying to clutter up this board with one issue, but searching for past solutions on this board is tough and even if we find some, how do we know they have actually worked and passed the test of time? I'm sure Envoyenvy1 would agree 1 month just isn't good enough.
I think I'll take mine in Monday as well. Perhaps all three of us hitting the dealers at the same time will have some effect.
...... The sunshade for the sunroof does not go all the way back to open when the sunroof is closed. However, when I open the sunroof, the shade will slide all the way back out of the way.
Is this common with other sunshades on the triplets? If so, anyone figure how to get around this so you can get the full view of the sunroof glass.
I had a curious issue occur, I just got back from the car wash and on the passenger side front seat there is a bunch of little threads sticking out of many of the perforated holes. Has any one else had this happen before. I'll assume it occurred when the seats got vacuumed, but this didn't occur on the drivers seat, and this isn't the first visit to the car wash. Any ideas.
Also I got my first door ding yesterday and I had a question. The impact occurred on the plastic molding on the drivers door, and the JA must have flung their door open as hard as they could because it took a chunk out of the plastic molding. My question is, has anybody here had to repair their door molding yet, and if so how is it done. How expensive was it if you didn't fix it yourself. Just goes to show, you can't have anything nice in this world without someone having to ruin it for you in short order. For the curious, it occurred at a mall parking lot, I parked in the back forty on purpose so this sort of thing wouldn't happen, there was plenty of parking closer the mall entrance, yet this JA had to park six inches apart from my vehicle and damage it. Makes me wonder if they did it on purpose.
gidden_john: Hope you waited for them to have them pay for the damage, or at least returned the favor on the way out.
cmack4: What good are all these electronics and computers when they constantly fail and need reprogramming. Our computers at work all always failing. That alone should scare the hell out of us when it comes to vehicles. What possible advantage does an electrontic throttle give over a conventional cable? Who ever heard of having a cooling fan reprogrammed? At least some of these conventional parts were 100% reliable. Who needs an electronically controlled tranfser case when a viscous coupling will do (Bravada)? I had a viscous coupling on my Honda and Subaru and it NEVER gave me one problem. Based on this board, lots of people (me included)are having problems. Computers are great for engine managment and similar functions, but keep the rest of it simple!
After further reflection on your recent post I wanted to suggest an answer to your question:
"How does a reprograming fix work for a month and then fail again?."
I think there are several possibilities other than leaky memory: 1) The "learning" function of the system is involved in the problem - ie. it changes behavior in a given situation in response to something it is sensing over a period of time. 2) The reprogramming that was done that you thought had fixed the problem merely compensated for some sort of mechanical wear. As the wear worsened the symptoms came back. 3) I have noticed that during startup, all the gauges are driven in a downscale direction (not just de-energized, but it appears the polarity is actually reversed) I wonder if this is necessary to reset certain variables in the computers? If so, perhaps temperature is not being reset each time?
Why would they dump the Rendezvous? It a very very big seller for Buick. It may not be real powerful, but it's adequate and the RDV is a sweet ride.
I am surprised how fast the Bravada is being phased out. I thought for sure there would be one more year since the Aurora, Alero and van are still around for 2003.
I have been reading this board off and on for a few weeks now and just registered. First off, you all are doing an invaluable service with all of the information that is posted. It makes for a lot of reading :-), but never the less, thanks.
So regarding this cold accel/fan noise thing that is described in different ways...I am a bit confused, or maybe just don't know what to do. I have had my envoy for a little over 2 months now, build date, 01/02. I have experienced this about 4-5 times. A couple times early on, and twice about 2 weeks ago. Anyway, turn engine on, with putting into R or D, fan noise is excessive, rpms high....back up and go into drive and no power, doesn't downshift, high rpms, excessive fan noise. And then it goes away as everyone says.
So, first question... is this the same thing that PSB 831229 (on Tim's site) addresses and is it the same thing that post #5398 talks about with all the ID #s including 12575341. Second...are those ID #'s PCM programs or TSB #'s (I know this sounds like a dumb question, I am thinking programs... so are they all covered under the above TSB) This where I am a little confused.
So...my VIN is past the VIN cutoff on PSB 831229 so I am not sure I should take my envoy to the dealer and second, maybe I am just wary of dealers, but since the problem doesn't really happen routinely, I am afraid that if I take a list of numbers to them (from post 5398) that they could potentially do more harm them good. On the other hand, I have to take it in for the gasket fix, since my envoy is black and the chipping is easily seen. Plus, I don't like the fact it is happening at all on a new vehicle. Any clarification on the above #'s and/or recommendations on what to do would be much appreciated.
Thanks again for everybody out there taking the time to post and help people out.
I agree with you 100% that conventional technology wins hands down if you can't make new technology work better/faster/cheaper... I'm convinced that fixes will come for most if not all of the problems on this board, but nobody likes to play the waiting game... especially with their vehicle! I am a federal civilian, and I buy technology for the government (the military in particular. You want to talk about a struggle. The customer always wants "cutting edge" but wants better reliability to go with it! I've seen stuff that would both blow your mind, and I've seen stuff that would leave you guessing for hours on what the heck they were thinking... Love it or hate it, change is inevitable! Even with the flaws, I'm still fascinated with my Bravada
Just an update on my TB with the hesitation/fan noise problem. I have had the reprogramming fix done twice now on the truck, the last time about 6 weeks ago. The fan problem still takes place about once a week or so, most recently today with an outside temperature of 75 degrees. I can now say for sure it is not just a cold weather issue. The technician I spoke to at Chevy basically stated they have no fix. These TSB's are basically just test fixes. I have almost resigned to just live with this until I get rid of the vehicle which may be within a year, particularly due to the 13 -- 14 miles per gallon gas mileage in mixed driving. I now have almost 15,000 miles on the truck. I was wondering if anyone out there has rolled up some significant mileage on their vehicle thus far and can comment on the reliability (or lack of). I thought the long term update from one of the auto magazines summed it up when their first sentence of the review was (What's wrong with the TrailBlazer now.)
"I thought the long term update from one of the auto magazines summed it up when their first sentence of the review was (What's wrong with the TrailBlazer now.)"
Which automotive magazine are you referring to? Tks. Bruce
Anyone has problem like I do? My 2002 TB LS has very sensitive seat belt on the passenger side. It locks intermittently and remain locked until I unbuckle the latch and let it return fully all the way back to unlock the seat belt and re-buckle again. It is normal all the time during driving but only happen once or twice. Very alloying.
From what I understand, the seat belt is functioning properly if what you are referring to is the child seat restraint engagement. This occurs if the passenger belt is pull out to it's stop. I posted something similar on some testing I quickly performed. Here's my recap: -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Has anyone had any issues with the passenger side seat belt engaging the inertia/child seat lock? I saw a couple of posts on it & did some "experimenting" on my own. I buckled the passenger seat belt (empty) and while breaking hard, noticed the inertia brake holding the belt as it should. When belt tension was released, so did the inertia brake. However, if the belt is ever extended all the way to the limit, a child seat lock engages and does not release until the belt is almost all the way retracted back into the unit. I suppose this is normal however, I have had a couple of passengers engage this by adjusting the shoulder strap. This is uncomfortable as the more you try to release the tension, the tighter it gets. They had to unbuckle the belt, let it retract and buckle it back up. I suppose this is normal, but would like to know for sure. If it is, it may seem like the belt length could be designed too short. Any comments? Any TSB?
Thanks for your reply to confirm my findings paisan.
First, let me let yoa'll know that I have contacted a buddy at Powertrain, and if he can find out what is going on, I'll pass it on to you! (I can only assume that it is indeed a documented problem, not subject to "official" label). I'll do what I can (Engine Hesitation/cold start/reprogram/etc). Mrau- as long as we have been installing the tilt and slide glass roof, that is the way it has been designed. I believe it stems from the old design standards to limit the possibility of catching the sunshade behind the edge of the headliner, and thus initiating a self-destruct mode on the interior trim. I've only seen a few of GM cars without that "feature",I've learned to live with it. Doesn't bother me any more, but I'll remember to mention it to the Sunroof DSE next time I see her.
Also see if you can steal Isuzu's Trooper roof for the Envoy/TB/clones That is the biggest roof in any SUV and would give you guys a nice edge over the rest.
I had the occasion yesterday to use my Envoy off-road. A left bag at my house needed to be returned and the owners live off the grid (no phone, solar panels, etc.). So, with bag in hand and Envoy I head to their home. I did hesitate when turning onto their "road" (it begins with a sharp incline into the woods and is really a set of ruts with water, leaves and mud running down and runs for 3 miles!) and thought about leaving the bag in a tree with a note, but in the end I put the Envoy in 4AUTO and took off. After a few car lengths of slight wheel spin in the mud I changed to 4HI. After ruts, water, exposed ledge, rocks, STEEP hills, trees immediately on the left and right, I will say the Envoy never put a wheel out of place. By VERY CAREFUL going I did not bottom out or scrape once. The hard plastic GMC mud flaps did not scrape once and did a great job of keeping ALL the mud off the vehicle (the tires and wheels on the other hand, were covered).
Observations:
After the last climb up a very steep muddy hill covered with tree roots and mud, the cooling fan came on FOR REAL! It is much more noticeable then the few times I have experienced when it comes on in the mornings -- it really puts a drag on the motor, but it shut off after a minute or so.
On the return trip I used 4LO which was a much better way to travel over this kind of terrain.
The air suspension really soaked up the rough going. I have travelled this "road" many times in Land Rover 88s and Toyota Land Cruisers (mostly as a passenger) and though they are superb off road, they are a MUCH rougher ride than the Envoy.
Though I think it is kind of "nuts" to take a $38,000 vehicle off road, the Envoy is capable of off roading and still go 75+ mph on the highway!
The bag was return to it's rightful owner and the Envoy provided it can handle 4-wheelin.
I too have had the reprogram for the fan noise.It lasted 2weeks and sure enough it's back.I wonder if Gm will ever get a fix for this excesive fan noise and loss of power.
Well.. I dropped off my Envoy last night at the dealership for a re-try at the cold acceleration issue. I didn't leave my keys in the drop box because I had plans on returning to the dealership this morning to personally talk with my service visor and perform the necessary write up.
Upon my arrival I was promptly greeting by my "new best friend" (service advisor), I mentioned to him that the problem still persisted and that the vehicle had been left overnight if someone wanted to check it out sometime today or later this week. He wanted to confirm my version of the "cold acceleration" issue and summoned their lead technician to go along on a ride with me. I was quite please by this gesture and took him up on the offer. I explained everything to "Pat" and off we went. With Pat behind the wheel, he experienced exactly what I had been telling him. Additionally, we made several quick complete stop and goes and he noticed that the acceleration continued to be somewhat delayed and not smoootthh. We even tried shutting the vehicle down and restarting and no such luck... the problem still persisted.
Upon return of our trip, Pat said that he would personally work on the vehicle to see what he could find. I do believe that Medolark and EnvoyEnvy1 had agreed to take their vehicles in as well this morning, I would love to hear their service stories. Was your technicians quite helpful or understood the nature of the problems or did they simply write up the request?? I am keeping my fingers crossed, everyone please say a prayer for us! Ha, ha..
How about if we try to get Tim to start tracking some info on his site? Those of you with the Hesitation/Fan problem provide your vin# and build date. Maybe we can narrow this down and provide gmdrone with some better info to take back. It may be unique to a certain range of production vehicles. While I still only have about 1,500 miles on mine, I haven't seen any mechanical problems at all. Hopefully, we won't be sucking gmdrone in to getting into trouble with the GM Gods if he continues to try to assist.
This is looking similar to the gasket issue, where GM is really very aware of the problem, but can't or won't respond to it (yet?). The more noise (and numbers) thrown at GM, the better the chances of prompt action IMO.
Something else that would be nice to track (again on Tim's site if he is willing) is a survey of satisfaction. Something like:
> __No problems > __Minor problems but fixed > __Problems, still not fixed > __I want to give it back
This would be very helpful to those coming here trying to find out if they should buy one of these trucks. There is way more negative being posted than positive and that may not be reality, just the nature of us beasts. It might also be a little reassuring (or not) to those who have aleady bought. By putting it on Tim's site, it would eliminate the need to sign up as is required to post here. I would bet we have a lot more readers than posters.
I still think the vast majority want to keep what they have even though it has been a hassle. You just want the problem(s) FIXED!
Based ONLY on my personal experience, I still HIGHLY RECOMMEND these trucks.
I hear you ! When GM moves fast, look out, we're in big trouble! Actually, while I think that the time it took to develop a gasket and get it into production and everything was pretty quick, compared with some of the earlier programs I have been involved with! Used to be that we'd meet about it for 4-5 months, decide whether or not it would cost a lot, see whether we could convince the beaners that it was economically feasible, contact SPO, etc. I'm kinda amazed that they listened to you guys as much as they did. The problem really became apparent at Moraine when they started the 370, and there was a new corporate auditor! Then they started to believe the dealer complaints! Sorry we're not fast enough, but we're trying!
Re: Rattle in hood, there is a campaign to insert a spring washer into the hinge bolt, part # is 12383460. If you need the text file, I can probably send it to you as a Blbshtml. file.
Re: Engine hesitation, etc. C/ #01-06-04-052
Vin# PRIOR TO Below should have PROM reflashed ONLY IF YOU HAVE THE SYMPTOMS DESCRIBED in bulletin. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! You guys all know how software is once it's been overwritten!! (They are supposed to clear the PCM before they reflash), I trust the dealers know this, if not, BETTER TELL 'EM! I wouldn't be surprised if that hasn't occured on some of your trucks.
TB 22244600 ENVOY 22244601 BRAVADA 22244597
If you have had the PROM reflashed,make sure that they use GM-VIS TIS 2000 Version 8.5/2001 data update or later. There is also a reset that needs to be done if any pressure has been relieved by the dissassembly of the transmission. (Something to do with codes not taking,)...
They are all in the system. Let me know what's happening. I'm still waiting to hear from the Powertrain Guy.
You are really turning out to be a GeM. I'm sure everyone here REALLY appreciates your efforts.
It means alot to have someone actually listen and make an effort. The feeling most of us have gotten when calling the customer assistance number is that they don't really care. Just another call to process and send on its way.
I did as you asked, opened the front door a looked toward the engine compartment, and what did I see??? Not what you described, but what I can best describe as a sound baffle. It looked to be a flat piece of DIY pipe insulation to fill the void and reduce/prevent wind noise. Go to a dealer and check out what they have on the lot. I just picked my Envoy up on Tuesday, so it is a new build.
That being said, I DO have the fan activiation on cold startup, but I fall outside the VIN cutoff. To me, it doesn't make sense why you would need to have the radiator fan on when the engine is cold. Is everyone having the fan activation on COLD startup?? I don't appear to have the hesitation, but I am also not romping on the accelerator as I am still within the 500-mile break-in period. Will follow up in a week or so when I reach the magical 500.
I had also asked the question about a rear parcel shelf. Turns out, through some research, that shelf only comes with the long versions.
gmdrone, thanks for all of the good work you are doing for us here. I know everyone appreciates it. Can you maybe find out why the fan activates on COLD startups as well when you talk to powertrain?? I have a dgree in Mechanical Engineering and would be interested to find out the thought process behind it.
I have seen alot of postings making reference to the following website http://service.gm.com
However I am always asked for a user name and password to get in to the site. Can someone please tell me how I can login there. I have a 2002 Bravada with the wandering mirrors, The loud fan noise, and the reduced power with cold startups. The dealer has been unable to duplicate the problem and I would love to be able to print out these forms and show them that I am not crazy.
Don't think the answer exists yet for your fan/power loss issue unless the recent post from "gmdrone" helps (post #5516 or #5735 if you use the "goto" feature.
can you describe more of what you called sound baffle....is it loose, just hanging there, or is it glued tight....on my ltz, there just hanging there between the hinge and front quarter panel?...what exactly are they?
I only looked at it breifly, but it appears to be glued on to the frame but loose at the quarter panel, I think. I will look again this evening and reply. But there is something there, and it sounded like racoon (post 5455) had nothing but a gaping void.
As far as what they are exactly, I am not sure. My previous post was just my best guess.
Vindog45, I looked last night and I also have the piece as described by Jwinky, however mine was just hanging there and I also could see into the wheel well. It appears to have some clips I believe. I also have the wind noise problem and have taken it in before. Rear door stripping was falling off before. Maybe this is also contributing.
Medolark & Iexplore2000, didn't get my car in to the dealer today as some work related issues came up. Let me know what happens with yours. I'll try and get mine in tomorrow.
gmdrone, thanks for the info. Sounds like there are several people experiencing the same problems with fan noise/acceleration. Please take back a msg to GM from a first time GM customer (and last time), A great design and features don't matter if quality is lacking.
Comments
-mike
jp
Can you help us growing number of Bravada owners with the binding in turns issue? It's a transfer case (or a rear end) issue that I haven't seen a fix for yet. My dealer is still waiting for parts and may have to repurchase my vehicle if they don't come in soon. Heck, they don't even know if this will fix the problem. Any help is appreciated.
GAM2
That makes sense. The plate to body connection is not visably welded, and I can see how the service writer would describe the fix as a bonding. All of this is at the "A" pillar, not on the door.
The body shop never called me back, so I will go down and see them. I'm sure they have a way to push the door back, as the alignment and fit is good as new. I'd like to know how they did it.
I want to say again that my 2002 Bravada has been my best new car experience in many years. Probably the 84 Subaru was the only trouble free vehicle, and even it needed a cam belt under warranty.
I traded a 2000 Lincoln LS for the Bravada.
I traded a 1998 Mazda MPV for the Lincoln LS
I traded a 1994 Crown Victoria for the Mazda.
I traded a 1990 Mazda MPV for the Crown Vic
I traded a 1986 Subaru GL for the Mazda
I traded a 1884 Subaru SW for the GL
I traded a 1983 GMC S15 Pickup for the Subaru, and that S15 was the biggest POS I ever had. Came with 3 recalls, and coupons for two more in the glove box. Leaked oil from day one, had the rear main seal replaced at 6000 miles and I traded it.
During this time I also had a 91 Nissan PU, traded for a 94 4x4 Ranger PU, traded for a 94 Lincoln Mark VIII that needed a new tranny at 55,000 miles, traded for a 99 F150 5.4 2 WD that needed a new motor at 33,000 miles so I traded it for a paid for 1985 S15 Jimmy 4x4 that has 165,000 miles and leaks from every orifice.
But my baby is my 2000 Honda Valkyrie Interstate. 6 carbs, 6 cylinders, 100 HP and 100 FtLbs of Torque.
WichitaGreg
Who kind of went off on a rant...
-mike
Did GM release these vehicles before their time?
Maybe that's why GM doesn't want to post this information, BTW. In this competitive age, it costs a lot of money to launch a vehicle. Why would you want to taint it with negative information? Shoppers already are afraid of the product after reading reviews from Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, and forums like this where people tend to gripe more about their problems than hype the positives. They tend to ignore positive review like that in Motor Trend, seeing it as marketing or favoritism given to advertisers.
From a marketing perspective, I can't blame GM for wanting to avoid shoppers from reading the TSBs, but I can't understand why they wouldn't let current owners have access to them, like it looks like Audi does. I think that kind of trust and service would help maintain customer loyalty--hard to do these days.
BTW, I also applaud Mark (GMDrone) for working with this board. I remember when Kay tried to represent Oldsmobile in the Bravada launch, a number of people were a little hard on her--especially after the demise of Olds was announced. It's hard to try to help people when they are more interested in "yelling" at you. cmack4 is right: be nice! It'll help Mark keep trying to help.
Sorry for preaching; just my two cents.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/
I hear the Bravada is done after this year and will be changed over to a Buick. Does anyone know for sure? If true, my Bravada will be very rare in Canada as this was the first year it was available here.
As promised, I wanted to update you all on my service visit for those whom are interested.
Well, I did receive my Envoy back late Thursday evening (8pm). I brought her home and then went to work (90 miles away) on Friday in my Grand AM. Yesterday, upon returning home from work, I was very anxious to see if the cold acceleration issue had been resolved so I immediately jumped in my suv and was quickly greeted by the same hesitation problem! I re-checked my service order to see if they had performed the program update. The service order read:
"Customer states that there is a delay when shifting from R to D in the morning. Needs possible calibration 12575341. Customer requested to check to see if PCM is up to current calibration and found needs update for excessive noise. Updated PCM per total customer satisfaction and test drove. All okay at this time." (not exactly close to how I verbalized the problem to the advisor, but OKAY??)
In this case, my vehicle had sat over 24 hours before I test drove it late Friday evening, so of course the engine was quite cold. All in all, the hesitation problem still exists and I must say that this issue leaves my stomach a little uneased. I just don't understand why my 02 Grand Am GT runs so much better than my Envoy and cost over $15K less?
I have decided that the best thing for me to do is to drop off the vehicle again on Monday morning, explaining to them that I am willing to give them another 3 or 4 tries to get this problem resolved. If they cannot figure out what is causing this problem, then I have no other choice but to pursue the possible "buy back" option through the GM Customer Satisfaction Center. I really hate to have to go this route, but I really have no other choice in the matter? Especially when I feel that this is not how the vehicle should run after test driving several others.. It just doesn't add up??
Also, to be certain that I wasn't "imagining" the problem being present, I tried it again today. When I started it up again this morning, I was quickly greeted with the same hesitation as experienced before. I personally don't know what to think about this, except that maybe the dealership did something wrong with they applied the PCM update 12575341 that has helped others with similar (i.e. slow accel. problems due to cooling fan) issues? I honestly appreciate the professionalism, courtiousness and eagerness that this new servicing dealership has displayed to me concerning my issues. I would definitely recommend them to anyone. Personally, I am not faulting them for not trying to resolve my issue because I honestly believe that they are definitely trying!
Well.. that's all folks.. Any additional questions, comments or concerns would be greatly appreciated... "haaa--gazooooooo--choo!!" <--------- me sneezing in an attempt to summon our GAZOO!
Thanks Everyone!
Sincerely.. Dazed and Confused IExplore2000@aol.com
PS: The servicing dealer did install the new mirror actuators.. so far, so good! Additionally, they also installed the ECAS muffler filter, now I can only here a faint 'psssss' sound when the compressor is releasing pressure!
I also Wonder if this means Buick will dump the unerpowered RDV?
Guess I'm taking it in again Monday! Might as well have the wind noise checked again, although I'm sure they won't find anything again! Have taken roof racks off, had weather stripping replaced, nothing helps.
I traded in a 6 year old Ford Explorer that NEVER had a visit to the dealer in the 6 years I owned it. Now I buy a car that list for $37,000 and it doesn't work right in the morning and sounds like a wind tunnel on the freeway. What a deal!!!
For those that would state "well, it's a first year model"... That's a bunch of BS and a poor excuse for bad quality from the manufacture.
Also, I MUST laugh when you stated " I traded in a 6 year old Ford Explorer that NEVER had a visit to the dealer in the 6 years I owned it." Funny that you should say that because just TODAY I was telling a friend over dinner this evening the same exact thing! "I had my 2000 Ford Explorer V-8 Limited for 2 years and not one visit to the service department except for oil changes!" I am not saying that the FORDS are 100% better, but I was truly impressed with the reliability of the FORD. When I sold it to a couple in Cleveland in January, I was very proud to hand them all of the necessary records that went along with the truck. They were impressed at the build quality and the high quality interior pieces that it had. Now if I had to personally sell my Envoy to someone, I would not be able to look them straight in the face and tell them that my Envoy has been very reliable. Sure it hasn't broken down or anything, but the number of service visits are becoming quite an inconvenience for me since I work 90 miles away and the service departments are not open late. That makes dropping off and picking up my SUV quite a chore!
I do wish you the best during your service visit on Monday, I will be at my servicing dealership as well. Hopefully they can get to the bottom of this soon enough... If not, I may have to begin thinking about my next SUV of choice and believe me, I think that it would be something in the foreign car market. The MDX is starting to look good to me all over again! Ha, ha!
Thanks,
IExplore2000@aol.com
I'm very sorry to hear it did not work. I hope I didn't jinx you because I was thinking about your "solution" today and strategizing how I could get my dealer to do what yours did.
I really would like to hear from anyone who thinks they have actually gotten this fixed. Perhaps those who have had fan noise/cold acceleration/hesitation problems and had something done that "fixed" the situation can reply with what was done and how long the fix has held up. That could be very useful to those of us still struggling with this thing. I'm not trying to clutter up this board with one issue, but searching for past solutions on this board is tough and even if we find some, how do we know they have actually worked and passed the test of time? I'm sure Envoyenvy1 would agree 1 month just isn't good enough.
I think I'll take mine in Monday as well. Perhaps all three of us hitting the dealers at the same time will have some effect.
Is this common with other sunshades on the triplets? If so, anyone figure how to get around this so you can get the full view of the sunroof glass.
Thanks,
Mike
Also I got my first door ding yesterday and I had a question. The impact occurred on the plastic molding on the drivers door, and the JA must have flung their door open as hard as they could because it took a chunk out of the plastic molding. My question is, has anybody here had to repair their door molding yet, and if so how is it done. How expensive was it if you didn't fix it yourself.
Just goes to show, you can't have anything nice in this world without someone having to ruin it for you in short order. For the curious, it occurred at a mall parking lot, I parked in the back forty on purpose so this sort of thing wouldn't happen, there was plenty of parking closer the mall entrance, yet this JA had to park six inches apart from my vehicle and damage it. Makes me wonder if they did it on purpose.
cmack4: What good are all these electronics and computers when they constantly fail and need reprogramming. Our computers at work all always failing. That alone should scare the hell out of us when it comes to vehicles. What possible advantage does an electrontic throttle give over a conventional cable? Who ever heard of having a cooling fan reprogrammed? At least some of these conventional parts were 100% reliable. Who needs
an electronically controlled tranfser case when a viscous coupling will do (Bravada)? I had a viscous coupling on my Honda and Subaru and it NEVER gave me one problem. Based on this board, lots of people (me included)are having problems.
Computers are great for engine managment and similar functions, but keep the rest of it simple!
GAM2
"How does a reprograming fix work for a month and then fail again?."
I think there are several possibilities other than leaky memory: 1) The "learning" function of the system is involved in the problem - ie. it changes behavior in a given situation in response to something it is sensing over a period of time. 2) The reprogramming that was done that you thought had fixed the problem merely compensated for some sort of mechanical wear. As the wear worsened the symptoms came back. 3) I have noticed that during startup, all the gauges are driven in a downscale direction (not just de-energized, but it appears the polarity is actually reversed) I wonder if this is necessary to reset certain variables in the computers? If so, perhaps temperature is not being reset each time?
Sorry for my obsession with this damn thing!
I am surprised how fast the Bravada is being phased out. I thought for sure there would be one more year since the Aurora, Alero and van are still around for 2003.
So regarding this cold accel/fan noise thing that is described in different ways...I am a bit confused, or maybe just don't know what to do. I have had my envoy for a little over 2 months now, build date, 01/02. I have experienced this about 4-5 times. A couple times early on, and twice about 2 weeks ago. Anyway, turn engine on, with putting into R or D, fan noise is excessive, rpms high....back up and go into drive and no power, doesn't downshift, high rpms, excessive fan noise. And then it goes away as everyone says.
So, first question... is this the same thing that PSB 831229 (on Tim's site) addresses and is it the same thing that post #5398 talks about with all the ID #s including 12575341. Second...are those ID #'s PCM programs or TSB #'s (I know this sounds like a dumb question, I am thinking programs... so are they all covered under the above TSB) This where I am a little confused.
So...my VIN is past the VIN cutoff on PSB 831229 so I am not sure I should take my envoy to the dealer and second, maybe I am just wary of dealers, but since the problem doesn't really happen routinely, I am afraid that if I take a list of numbers to them (from post 5398) that they could potentially do more harm them good. On the other hand, I have to take it in for the gasket fix, since my envoy is black and the chipping is easily seen. Plus, I don't like the fact it is happening at all on a new vehicle. Any clarification on the above #'s and/or recommendations on what to do would be much appreciated.
Thanks again for everybody out there taking the time to post and help people out.
Brian
I have need of a copy of this bulletin. Can anyone help me locate a copy on the web? To my knowledge, there is not one on Tim's site.
Thanks,
Paul P
Which automotive magazine are you referring to?
Tks.
Bruce
It is normal all the time during driving but only happen once or twice. Very alloying.
tidester
Host
SUVs
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Has anyone had any issues with the passenger side seat belt engaging the inertia/child seat lock? I saw a couple of posts on it & did some "experimenting" on my own. I buckled the passenger seat belt (empty) and while breaking hard, noticed the inertia brake holding the belt as it should. When belt tension was released, so did the inertia brake. However, if the belt is ever extended all the way to the limit, a child seat lock engages and does not release until the belt is almost all the way retracted back into the unit. I suppose this is normal however, I have had a couple of passengers engage this by adjusting the shoulder strap. This is uncomfortable as the more you try to release the tension, the tighter it gets. They had to unbuckle the belt, let it retract and buckle it back up. I suppose this is normal, but would like to know for sure. If it is, it may seem like the belt length could be designed too short. Any comments? Any TSB?
Thanks for your reply to confirm my findings paisan.
John
-mike
(I can only assume that it is indeed a documented problem, not subject to "official" label). I'll do what I can (Engine Hesitation/cold start/reprogram/etc). Mrau- as long as we have been installing the tilt and slide glass roof, that is the way it has been designed. I believe it stems from the old design standards to limit the possibility of catching the sunshade behind the edge of the headliner, and thus initiating a self-destruct mode on the interior trim. I've only seen a few of GM cars without that "feature",I've learned to live with it. Doesn't bother me any more, but I'll remember to mention it to the Sunroof DSE next time I see her.
Mark
-mike
Observations:
After the last climb up a very steep muddy hill covered with tree roots and mud, the cooling fan came on FOR REAL! It is much more noticeable then the few times I have experienced when it comes on in the mornings -- it really puts a drag on the motor, but it shut off after a minute or so.
On the return trip I used 4LO which was a much better way to travel over this kind of terrain.
The air suspension really soaked up the rough going. I have travelled this "road" many times in Land Rover 88s and Toyota Land Cruisers (mostly as a passenger) and though they are superb off road, they are a MUCH rougher ride than the Envoy.
Though I think it is kind of "nuts" to take a $38,000 vehicle off road, the Envoy is capable of off roading and still go 75+ mph on the highway!
The bag was return to it's rightful owner and the Envoy provided it can handle 4-wheelin.
Upon my arrival I was promptly greeting by my "new best friend" (service advisor), I mentioned to him that the problem still persisted and that the vehicle had been left overnight if someone wanted to check it out sometime today or later this week. He wanted to confirm my version of the "cold acceleration" issue and summoned their lead technician to go along on a ride with me. I was quite please by this gesture and took him up on the offer. I explained everything to "Pat" and off we went. With Pat behind the wheel, he experienced exactly what I had been telling him. Additionally, we made several quick complete stop and goes and he noticed that the acceleration continued to be somewhat delayed and not smoootthh. We even tried shutting the vehicle down and restarting and no such luck... the problem still persisted.
Upon return of our trip, Pat said that he would personally work on the vehicle to see what he could find. I do believe that Medolark and EnvoyEnvy1 had agreed to take their vehicles in as well this morning, I would love to hear their service stories. Was your technicians quite helpful or understood the nature of the problems or did they simply write up the request?? I am keeping my fingers crossed, everyone please say a prayer for us! Ha, ha..
Thanks for Listening!
IExplore2000@aol.com
How about if we try to get Tim to start tracking some info on his site? Those of you with the Hesitation/Fan problem provide your vin# and build date. Maybe we can narrow this down and provide gmdrone with some better info to take back. It may be unique to a certain range of production vehicles. While I still only have about 1,500 miles on mine, I haven't seen any mechanical problems at all. Hopefully, we won't be sucking gmdrone in to getting into trouble with the GM Gods if he continues to try to assist.
This is looking similar to the gasket issue, where GM is really very aware of the problem, but can't or won't respond to it (yet?). The more noise (and numbers) thrown at GM, the better the chances of prompt action IMO.
Something else that would be nice to track (again on Tim's site if he is willing) is a survey of satisfaction. Something like:
> __No problems
> __Minor problems but fixed
> __Problems, still not fixed
> __I want to give it back
This would be very helpful to those coming here trying to find out if they should buy one of these trucks. There is way more negative being posted than positive and that may not be reality, just the nature of us beasts. It might also be a little reassuring (or not) to those who have aleady bought. By putting it on Tim's site, it would eliminate the need to sign up as is required to post here. I would bet we have a lot more readers than posters.
I still think the vast majority want to keep what they have even though it has been a hassle. You just want the problem(s) FIXED!
Based ONLY on my personal experience, I still HIGHLY RECOMMEND these trucks.
What do you guys think?
Paul
Re: Rattle in hood, there is a campaign to insert a spring washer into the hinge bolt, part # is 12383460. If you need the text file, I can probably send it to you as a Blbshtml. file.
Re: Engine hesitation, etc. C/ #01-06-04-052
Vin# PRIOR TO Below should have PROM reflashed ONLY IF YOU HAVE THE SYMPTOMS DESCRIBED in bulletin. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! You guys all know how software is once it's been overwritten!! (They are supposed to clear the PCM before they reflash), I trust the dealers know this, if not, BETTER TELL 'EM! I wouldn't be surprised if that hasn't occured on some of your trucks.
TB 22244600
ENVOY 22244601
BRAVADA 22244597
If you have had the PROM reflashed,make sure that they use GM-VIS TIS 2000 Version 8.5/2001 data update or later. There is also a reset that needs to be done if any pressure has been relieved by the dissassembly of the transmission. (Something to do with codes not taking,)...
They are all in the system. Let me know what's happening. I'm still waiting to hear from the Powertrain Guy.
Sorry so brief,
Got work to Do!!
Mark
It means alot to have someone actually listen and make an effort. The feeling most of us have gotten when calling the customer assistance number is that they don't really care. Just another call to process and send on its way.
So, for everybody here... THANKS!
Paul
I did as you asked, opened the front door a looked toward the engine compartment, and what did I see??? Not what you described, but what I can best describe as a sound baffle. It looked to be a flat piece of DIY pipe insulation to fill the void and reduce/prevent wind noise. Go to a dealer and check out what they have on the lot. I just picked my Envoy up on Tuesday, so it is a new build.
That being said, I DO have the fan activiation on cold startup, but I fall outside the VIN cutoff. To me, it doesn't make sense why you would need to have the radiator fan on when the engine is cold. Is everyone having the fan activation on COLD startup?? I don't appear to have the hesitation, but I am also not romping on the accelerator as I am still within the 500-mile break-in period. Will follow up in a week or so when I reach the magical 500.
I had also asked the question about a rear parcel shelf. Turns out, through some research, that shelf only comes with the long versions.
gmdrone, thanks for all of the good work you are doing for us here. I know everyone appreciates it. Can you maybe find out why the fan activates on COLD startups as well when you talk to powertrain?? I have a dgree in Mechanical Engineering and would be interested to find out the thought process behind it.
Sorry for the long post, folks.
JAW
However I am always asked for a user name and password to get in to the site. Can someone please tell me how I can login there. I have a 2002 Bravada with the wandering mirrors, The loud fan noise, and the reduced power with cold startups. The dealer has been unable to duplicate the problem and I would love to be able to print out these forms and show them that I am not crazy.
You can't get there anymore. We only had access for a few days. When GM found out, they pulled the plug (fixed the login and password process).
Here is a link to Tim's site with the mirror TSB.
http://www.timlauro.com/cars/trailblazer/pdfs/mirrors-tsb-873047.pdf
Don't think the answer exists yet for your fan/power loss issue unless the recent post from "gmdrone" helps (post #5516 or #5735 if you use the "goto" feature.
Good luck.
I only looked at it breifly, but it appears to be glued on to the frame but loose at the quarter panel, I think. I will look again this evening and reply. But there is something there, and it sounded like racoon (post 5455) had nothing but a gaping void.
As far as what they are exactly, I am not sure. My previous post was just my best guess.
JAW
Also, anyone getting more than 15 MPG? The highway rating is 20, and we have yet to get close.
Medolark & Iexplore2000, didn't get my car in to the dealer today as some work related issues came up. Let me know what happens with yours. I'll try and get mine in tomorrow.
gmdrone, thanks for the info. Sounds like there are several people experiencing the same problems with fan noise/acceleration.
Please take back a msg to GM from a first time GM customer (and last time), A great design and features don't matter if quality is lacking.