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Comments
-mike
1. The higher the gear ratio, the better the gas mileage. A 3.42 rear end is higher than a 3.73 or a 4.10 You only need the 4.10 if you plan on doing a significant amount of towing.
2. These boards have been an excellent source of information for alot of people. Also they have been a soap box for people to [non-permissible content removed] and whine about unreasonable petty things and ANYWHERE in between. It would be better if people were constructive.
3. There are many happy owners out there that just watch these boards for the information only. Why post if all you see is a bunch of complaining?
4. My 02 trailblazer (purchased 2/2002, build 2/2002) has been excellent. The only reason for it to go into the shop has been the rear tailgate gasket, normal maint and one minor hit and run accident that left a dent and broken taillight.
I have pulled a 5,000lb boat behind my 02 TB and compared it directly with my 2001 Silverado. It is amazing how well these things handle the load. As far as gas mileage, well if I could keep my foot out of the gas pedal, I would get much better results. But is mostly city driving (better than 90%), I get 15-18 mpg.
Finally, Advertising fee? Here in So Cal, the last three new vehicles I have purchased have NEVER had an advertising fee, all GM makes.
Good Luck.
Walter (Gator)
If I could find it again! I did a Google search yesterday (while at work) and it was on a GM Powertrain web page but I can't find that same page today (at home). When I get back to that same computer I will see if it is still in "history" if you need specifics. Should have included a link to that page in my original post.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
After tblazed mentioned the gm powertrain site, it was a simple lookup.
FYI. Most 4x'ers consider 4.10 to be a lower gear ratio than a 3.42. As all gear ratios are not just 3.42 or 4.10. They are 3.42:1 or 4.10:1
http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/index.html
Oh, and even though the Jet chips aren't available yet for the triplets, you should be able to buy one of these now, since they have one designed for the 4L60E. Here's a retailer link, http://www.performanceintl.com
4.10 is a higher gear ratio than a 3.73
4.10 is a lower gear than a 3.73
I work with 4 other people who have bought TB's this past year.... all are delighted. I think this forum is doing the TB/Envoy an injustice.... More people that are happy with their triplets need to speak up.
I'm one of the many who read this board daily but haven't felt the need before to extol the virtues of the triplets.
So take all that you read here with a grain of salt, understanding that given a chance most folks will gripe before they compliment.
Now, as far as wind noise, I still have observed the latest models of triplets with a racks looking like they are on backwards. Luckily, my style of roof rack has a the word "Forward" & and arrow indicating the forward edge of the roof rack. I don't think that I have a problem with noise. As I have viewed this board since I purchased my TB, I remember past posts describing the rack cross-member profile being similar to an aircraft wing. The front edge being rounded with a slight rise and tapering to the trailing edge. I have been on the dealer lots and seen that the a "newer" style of roof rack cross-member does not have any indication of a forward edge. However, the profile appears to be with the tapered edge forward. Could this be attributing to the wind noise people are still complaining about?
Another indication of the a possible front to the cross members could be the "loop" or hole where the rack slides is toward the front.
Hope this helps.
John
The BBB rules on nothing. They have no power they not a governemental agency in any way, shape or form.
The BBB is a marketing device, primarily of benefit to local merchants. It is an organization formed by and for businesses. It allows them to use the slogan "Member of the BBB". The only recourse available to the BBB is to remove members if their becomes becomes too egregious for the other member businesses to accept.
You gain nothing by having a BBB hearing. It is only cover for GM who wants you to think you are somehow in a neutral forum.
When we have to resort to lawyers to get results, there is a problem. We are NOT alone. The three triplet owners where I work have all had multiple problems. Read Autoweek's scathing review of their long term TB (and all the people who have complained to them).
Any suggetions on what us poor souls with lemons should do? GM refuses to listen. Anyone with a problem free Bravada want to trade for mine? No?
That's what I thought.
GAM
Shortly after my engine fell apart internaly and was replaced, I was offered an extended warranty by GM. I don't know if the bad engine had anything to do with the offer or not. The plan I purchased was the major guard plan. It covers nearly everything in the car for 5 years or 75k miles. It also has a low deductable, and is TRANSFERABLE. It cost me about $1200.00 I think it is worth it, some others don't think so. Time will tell. I not concerned about repairs now.
Chevy mailed me a questionaire regarding my experience with the TB. I lit up the page with my comments about the failed engine and the mounting negative comments on boards such as this. I mentioned that I no longer had confidence in the vehicle. They asked what it would take to make me happy, short of buying back my car. After several phone calls, I was offered a component letter on the engine. This amounts to a warranty on the engine out to 60k miles, but with no deductable. It's not much, but it is something.
WHINERS? I don't think so. Because of our comments on this board, GM has been quickly confronted by an articulate and informed customer base. Because of our comments, most of the earlier problems are now solved. A dealer can't say he hasn't heard of a problem if you present him with a TSB. From valve controllers to wandering mirrors to auto levelers and rear gate gaskets, we have pushed the issues. I don't think we're whiners. I think Edmunds and its posters have provided an invaluable service for GM and other manufacturers. If you want the truth, keep reading this forum. If you want fantasy, read and believe the automakers brochures.
Frank
Others say "GM won't listen." Maybe these are the kind of people who think they need to get in somebody's face and yell all the time. I don't pretend to know everyone's situation here and I'm not singling anybody out, but I know these people exist. I see them all the time. If I were on the reverse side of them, I wouldn't want to help them either.
As for 21 problems. Well, I can't really defend GM on that. That's beyond my abilities. Maybe Johnny Cochran or somebody could handle that.
As far as price, one of the most exciting things about the new model is that even with all of the incredible advancements over the 3rd generation, the price is only increasing a tick for the 2003s! No wonder Toyota has kept this truck under such tight wraps...they didn't want to hurt the sales of the 2002s sitting on the lots.
The one item that I took a major exception to in my Bravada was the extremely poor quality of the door stampings where sheet metal ripples are so obvious where the top corners are at each door. If you have dark color, these will jump out at you. Go look at yours; I'll bet you have 'em too. GM has told me that what I call a manufacturing defect is what they consider a "design feature." Luckily my 2001 Silverado LT didn't have the benefit of this feature!! I haven't seen many posts concerning these obvious flaws. Better check yours. They'll make you feel really taken advantage of.
Another issue that I haven't seen posted is the operation of the auto climate control. Read your owner's manual and it'll tell you that all you do is set the desired temperature and the truck will maintain it for you controlling fan speed and automatically operating the recirculation function. Mine didn't do this. Complained to dealer and was told that the system was never designed to automatically control the recirc function. this they found out from their GM tech line. Gee, GM says the owners manual was wrong! Did they ever tell anyone? Not me; how about you? A page from one of our members websites has a copy of a GM document describing in technical detail the operation of the HVAC system and guess what -- it says the recirc function IS automatically controlled. Where does the truth lie??
These are only two of the more than 10 problems this truck has had in 7500 miles. Yes, I'm pursuing a buy back and yes I'll take the BBB approach first, but only because,according to a lemon lawyer' this won't affect my rights under our state's lemon law. I guess I just like to follow rules. Now, if only GM will.
GM would do a lot to gain faith in their products if they would follow Honda's lead and extend the warranty on every 2002 and 2003 with this 4.2 engine. Last week Honda extended warranties on 1.2 million automatic transmissions because of a <2% failure . That kind of action builds confidence and loyalty in customers.
I would like at some point to step up to something a little bigger for towing, but want to meet the following:
tow 3000lbs easily
haul 3+3 people (2 bench seats) plus 4 big coolers and a grill to the football game
full frame
at least 31 inch X 15 tires
solid axles front and rear
roof rack
external tailgate spare
6 or 8 cylinders
I know gas MPG will be bad, but hopeful?
no fancy trim levels, ability to hose out back
resistant to New England road salt
limited slip rear, or decent rear which can take a detroit locker
suggestions?
International Travelall (Suburban clone) 4X4. It has the added benefit of being so ugly it would never get stolen!
To others: I sent several letters to Olds Cust Service. Never once did I swear or act unprofessional. I stated my problems and asked them for a resolution. I asked them several specific questions that were never answered. Then they outright lied and said they never buy back vehicles. They closed my file unresolved and unsatisfied. So I'm going to start with the BBB and go from there. Hell, even just acknowledging my vehicle is abnormally troublesome would be a start. I envy those with good ones, because I would not be complaining if mine was relatively trouble free (NOTHING is perfect).
GAM
The model I took has 3.42 gears so my 4.10 concerns are gone.
My apologies for creating the foundation for the debate on "whining", but I too like to read all these posts as somewhere in the middle lies total truth.
So you all do not feel too unique in this forum, I also frequent the Club B5.5 forum for VW Passat owners.
It is all the same except on that site the owners are typically in total love with the cars but absolutely despise the dealer network.
Little quirks with the cars are to be expected because afterall these are precision instruments of performance and need a degree of forgiveness for their uniqueness.
Typically a good bunch of folks with a similar infatuation with German engineering.
Can anyone please give me the low down on what issues I need to check for at delivery.
IE, licence plate gasket???,Liftgate issue???
http://www.wagonmaster.com/
It is a long drive from MA to TX, but could be fun, and get an awesome car out of the deal!
I am seriously interested in finding the right vehicle. I wish Jeep still made the GW, or somebody made something similar to it now. Maybe take the same body, and update the drivetrain?
What kinds of needs do people on this forum have, whether it be owners of these vehicles, or prospective owners?
No Solid front axle and 31.5" tires are small for a trooper.
-mike
And they say "buyer beware" is NOT supposed to apply to NEW vehicles. . .
Good luck with your decision. And I hope you get a good one! It'll be one less that GM may have to buy back.
How are they offroad?
How are the Trailblazer in comparison (on ALL points mentioned earlier)?
twylie "Jeep Wrangler" Oct 1, 2001 8:26am
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
-mike
I can assure everyone on this board that if MY particular TrailBlazer experience had been a positive one, I wouldn't think twice about singing GM's praises. In fact, I have absolutely NO DOUBT that some of the triplets are nearly flawless. There's NO WAY that I would ever try and refute that. But then again, aren't they SUPPOSED to be nearly flawless? People buy BRAND NEW vehicles to AVOID the hassles of perpetual garage visits. As you can CLEARLY see by reading this board, not everyone has had a charmed experience with their triplet. There are a whole lot of folks that have posted messages stating that they are pursuing a repurchase from GM. This is NOT good--and it is painfully obvious that there are some serious issues with MANY of the triplets that have rolled off of GM's assembly lines. These people on here aren't "whining". Plain and simple, they don't like paying somewhere between 23 and 35 grand for a vehicle that is laden with mechanical, electrical and trim/finish bugs!!! You could understand it if the vehicle was sporting a YUGO logo! These people just want some decent quality for their money!!!
I'd like to see what the 'happy owners' would have to say on here if THEY had been stuck out in the boonies with a failed transmission at 9,000 miles of operation!!! Or had to take their triplet in for TWENTY-ONE different issues within the first 15,000 miles. Or picked up their triplet at the service department only to have NEW issues created by the service technician--in addition to blobs of grease on the carpet and steering wheel. Or if they had to take their triplet in for the SAME problem four straight times without a resolution. Or if they picked up their triplet only to notice that someone had driven it 190 miles while it was out of their possession. Admittedly, a couple of these issues were dealership-specific. That's true. However, the majority of them have been related to design and manufacturing flaws by GM.
In summary, don't try and squelch the so-called "whiners" on here. They can only HELP everyone in the long run regarding the triplets' quality. If people don't speak out and offer up constructive criticism that GM can readily access from these types of forums, there's simply no way that the myriad problems with SOME of the triplets will ever get rectified. I've said it before on here, and I'll say it again. I am very, very happy for the triplet owners that have been fortunate enough to land one of the good ones! That's great!!! But just remember, you too could have been one of the unlucky ones that shelled out thousands of dollars for a lemon. I can GUARANTEE that you'd be extremely hacked off too. Bear in mind, I am considered to be a VERY upbeat and positive man by everyone that knows me. But I also FIRMLY believe in standing up for my rights as a consumer and make absolutely NO APOLOGIES for being vocal about it!
Regards,
Ron M.
What is new in this debate? Have any of these cartrucks improved at all in offroad agility? I am not sure if I like the looks of the Trailblazer, but it has some other good points. Right now, I have a 1997 Wrangler, and was looking at used SUV's. Some I consider are Durango, Tahoe, S-10 Blazer (Trailblazer?), maybe Trooper.
I would like at some point to step up to something a little bigger for towing, but want to meet the following:
tow 3000lbs easily
haul 3+3 people (2 bench seats) plus 4 big coolers and a grill to the football game
full frame
at least 31 inch X 15 tires
solid axles front and rear
roof rack
external tailgate spare
6 or 8 cylinders
I know gas MPG will be bad, but hopeful?
no fancy trim levels, ability to hose out back
resistant to New England road salt
limited slip rear, or decent rear which can take a detroit locker
suggestions?
Other coments about the S-10 Blazer is that has a VERY strong V6 (actually a chopped down chevy 350), but it's not very smooth running. It is prone to a couple of expensive problems like ABS brake modulator failure ($800) and fuel injector problems ($900). Other than that, it's very tough and a real truck, even if you get the 2 wheel drive.
I ran a test the other night on a level section of I-70 where I measured the mileage over a 16 mile stretch at 70 MPH with the A/C on. I had the cruise control set most of the way.
Amazingly, the average mileage was 23.9 MPG as reported by the Bravada's info display. This is amazing because I never got above 20.8 MPG before. My '02 Bravada has a 4.10 rear and about 16,000 miles.
The next time I go on a longer highway trip, I'll rerun the test. Since this was the only modification to the engine the vehicle has had, it looks like some improvement occured in the PCM programming.
On a side note.. the interior of that new 4Runner looks pretty darn impressive! Anyone out there want a used 02 Envoy SLT with a FULLY AUTOMATIC A/C system that will more than willingly work based on the reverse logic principle?? Ha, ha.. Hey.. I like hot air in the face on a 90 degree day! Thanks GM for adding this innovative feature! As the temps get colder, I pray that I will make it through the winter with heat in my vehicle! :-)
Just having fun.. But.. OH SO TRUE!
Thanks,
IExplore2000@aol.com
I'd prefer the extra space. What do current models have? (hopefully not under or inside!)
What year did the new S-10 Blazer (Trailblazer) come out?
"It is prone to a couple of expensive problems like ABS brake modulator failure ($800) and fuel injector problems ($900)."
I would not want an SUV with ABS, but thanks anyways for the heads up.
ABS is easily disabled these days via a fuse, heck you can even put a switch on the fuse.
-mike
From what I have seen...
There are alot of people in here with good information.
There are alot of people with good vehicles that rarely post. (why should they? They obviously don't have the problems others do.)
For some reason GM appears to have more whiners than most other manufacturers. I have been around along time and have seen very similar problems in ALL other makes of vehicles. It just seems that because GM is the Largest car manufacturer in the world, people have to say just how bad GM is.
I would say that some GM dealers service can be oblismal yet I have seen much worse by way of the Japanese dealers. If you find a good service department stay with them....
Someone told me along time ago....
"Never buy a the first model year of a new design"
It was the positive comments on this board that helped me to decide otherwise regarding my purchase of an 02 TB. My wife and I do not regret it after 6 months and 12,000 miles later.
WHOMEVER THINKS THIS BOARD WILL AFFECT CHANGE BY GM IS HOPING ON A LONG SHOT! It is true that a GM dimensional engineer has and continues to look at this board. Yet that is an exception, he has done this on his own accord and is nit the rule. Better results can be accomplished by actual direct mail and or phone calls.
In college a business professor told me. Businesses look at contact by the level of effort it takes. A phone call does not take as much effort as a actual letter. If you want to affect change, write a letter directly to GM.
Now someone will say that I am a GM loyalist and I may have drank the punch or something. That is not the case. I am a realist. I have another vehicle that I have had more than my share of issues with. I have not and will not think of Buy back. But I have made several contacts higher up in the chain that have allowed me to make progress on resolving my current issues. You get more with honey than vinegar.
And if you want to see alot more whiners, go see the Silverado boards....
Most of the posters here have very constructive things to say...
Instead of friction between the plates causing them to lock (viscous), the motor receives input from the wheel sensors telling it where to send torque and how much, and it locks the appropriate plates.
For a short comparison of the Trooper and the TB, I'd have this to say. The Trooper wins in offroading capability and cargo area, but the TB has got more power, better on-road mannerisms (at least stock), and more features (which, when they work... they're great!) The Trailblazer has a lot of great features and was well designed but as any first year vehicle does, it had some issues. The Trooper is basically a no frills truck of the past with an updated (and even advanced by today's standards) 4wd system.
What IS the ground clearance? What are the biggest tires they can take in stock form? What kind of lifts are availble (links, please)?
Are they solid axle front and rear? (the best for off road duty)
What kind of springs (coil or leafs) do they have?
Do you have the departure angle? Approach?
Is the antisway bar (if it has one) easily removeable?
I have heard shakey things about their reliability, though. However, I have reliability issues with GM also.
Ground clearance = 8 inches
Solid Axles front and rear
Coil Springs
Antisway is probably removable, but wouldn't recommend it... It doesn't limit suspension travel, so it shouldn't be a problem
I'm not sure on the angles, but it's apparant that it was designed more for aesthetics and on road versus off road performance.
I don't want to sway you away from the TB, because I'm guessing it would probably suit your needs well. It's a capable tower, has decent off-road ability, exceptional power, and better than average handling. The 4L60E is a proven transmission, and so far I've heard few complaints about the engine. If you get a chance to crawl under one, you'll see that it's well built.