Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

richardcoulson

Maybe we need a class action law suit to force gm to give us an update that increases our fuel economy. It should be easy to calculate the damages based on actual fuel consumption and what the fuel consumption should be.

I am also concerned about the piston slap at cold start ups, which will probably reduce the longevity of the engine.

scottc454

Suing GM to give us better gas mileage! Shoudld we sue for the extra 5 horsepower too?
This is almost as bad as that fat guy who's suing the fast food chains. We can't expect them to halt progress on account of keeping owners of older models happy.

It's always frustrating when they come out with something then improve it the next year, but that's the way it works. They should provide longer warranties for first year models or some other incentive, but until we wise up and stop buying first year models, there's no need.

stever

Actually I have heard of a similar "scam" like that - the dealers have a name for it, but it escapes me at the moment. Look around the Finance, Warranty & Insurance Board if you have time. Anyone recall seeing this before?

Oh, and if the SUV is a nightmare, let them have it back if there's no sales contract :-)



Steve

Host

SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

richardcoulson

scottc454, I disagree. I do not think it is unreasonable to have updates made available to owners, particularly when many of these vehicles are only a few months old with a few thousand miles on them. I do agree that at some point, it is not feasible to continue maintaining the updates. This is not much different than software such as windows xp. I don't think anyone would want to buy another copy of windows xp everytime a new security patch or bug fix became available. GM advertised estimated mileage figures. Since many of people on this board do not seem to be getting close to the stated figures, particularly in city driving, gm should to provide a fix. Accountability is not a bad thing to expect, particularly on a $36,000 vehicle.

smmiller

I agree that GM should continue to offer improvements in the SW for the PCM even for older models. In older cars you could tune things yourself, but today you depend on your car's manufacturer to do it for you. The ball is in GM's court to provide updated software without making someone trade in and throw $10-$15k in the toilet since the depreciation on these things is ridiculous.

gam2

Stoney11: I can relate to your problems. Mine has 21 service issues. It's been to the dealer 3 times for 25 days now.

Looking for resale value? The dealer affered me $21,000 on a trade. List was $35,600 6 months, and 5500 miles ago. I've been in contact with their Customer (Dis)Service and they can't even give me an E-mail address for the rep I am dealing with. Each time I reply to an e-mail, it gets lost in the system because their reps don't have individual e-mails. What a joke! Easily the worst vehicle experience of my life! Thanks GM!

GAM

tlauro

Don't Hate me for my reply as I'm just keeping the conversation going....but depreciation....I just don't understand why the belief that the depreciation was going to be low?

The market is in a tank, and with the history of depreciation values and manufactures taking hits on them, the depreciation rates today, while not to our liking are not abnormally low. Typically, cars loose about 45-50% in 3 years. SUV's were slightly higher about 5-10 years back, but todays market is oversaturated and prices are more competetive as is the selection, thus they are slipping through today. Hey, I'm not commenting on the value of your 6mo. truck, but keep in mind, the 02's were introduced back in early 2001 and from a model year perspective don't have an advantage...in reality...they can be much older. The market is an average, not based on just individual vehicles. Besides, the 03's are out and residual values have already dropped for 02's thus a further impact. Low to 0% finance rates on new doesn't help the value of used cars either.

Lastly, regarding emails.....dealers are the last below attorney's and doctors at wanting to spend money on technology such as PC's and computers. With the turnover there is in the industry and lack of education and hands on experience for sales people....can you imagine the IT costs involved at setting up individual emails? or the time wasted with reps emailing and surfing all day. Most dealers don't want sales or information with anything other than a live body on the phone or at a deal desk. That's how they sell cars regardless of how we the buyer view it. Things will change, but slowly. Just my thoughts as seen from the inside....at one time.

tlauro

I've read a lot of messages about the MPG's of the I6 and how they do not seem to match our figures in the real world. I emailed this to a fellow board member. Good reading.

In summary, I feel the results of my 3.73 equipped LTZ are right on par with it's 15/21mpg ratings. After reading the artical, how many of us can say we average 20mph in the city and 48mph on the highway. I sure don't. Given that, I don't think I'll ever see 15/21 on a regular basis. Although I do average about 13-15 in the city and 18-21mph on the expressway.

I do a lot of driving and while am unsure about city speeds, I can say I am quite heavy on the gas pedal...more so than most. The highway...I go no slower than 70mph and typically cruise at 72-75mph....still achieving 18mpg...not bad IMO.

Site: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates

 

"How are fuel economy estimates obtained?

The fuel economy estimates are based on results of tests required by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). These tests are used to certify that vehicles meet the Federal emissions and fuel economy standards. Manufacturers test pre-production prototypes of the new vehicle models and submit the test results to EPA. . EPA re-tests about 10% of the tested vehicles to confirm manufacturer's results in EPA's lab. The vehicles are driven by a professional driver under controlled laboratory conditions, on an instrument similar to a treadmill. These procedures ensure that each vehicle is tested under identical conditions; therefore, the results can be compared with confidence.

There are two different fuel economy estimates for each vehicle in the Fuel Economy Guide, one for city driving and one for highway driving. To generate these two estimates, separate tests are used to represent typical everyday driving in a city and in a rural setting. Two kinds of engine starts are used: the cold start, which is similar to starting a car in the morning after it has been parked all night; and the hot start, similar to restarting a vehicle after it has been warmed up, driven, and stopped for a short time.

The test used to determine the city fuel economy estimate simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 miles per hour (mph). The trip takes 31 minutes and has 23 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling, as in waiting at traffic lights or in rush hour traffic. The maximum speed is 56 mph. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight. Vehicles are tested at 68 F to 86 F ambient temperature.

The test to determine the highway fuel economy estimate represents a mixture of "non-city" driving. Segments corresponding to different kinds of rural roads and interstate highways are included. The test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph. The maximum speed is 60 mph. The test is run with the engine warmed up and has little idling time and no stops (except at the end of the test). "

tlauro

Re: all the PCM update posts.....it's my opinion that GM is doing just fine. Where on earth the assumption that we are entitled to PCM flash upgrades came from is beyond me. This is a car, not a digital camera or a software package. We bought 2002's and there is more to just a flash upgrade to make an 03. How many times have you upgraded software on a PC and found it incompatible with another program or hardware device. Exactly the same with Cars. Manufacturers would then expose themselves to the costs of the upgrade and even if the consumer paid for it, the exposure to long term changes and warranty costs incurred is not worth it, thus they won't offer PCM flash upgrades. Again, there is more to an 03 than just the PCM changes and it's not up to us the consumers to decide that no conflicts would occur if the PCM's were upgraded. It's also not our place to expect the manufacturers to offer it.

Heck, I swapped out a simple mechanical pulley on the supercharger of my GTP and gained 30hp. Simple mod, yet the dealer won't do it and GM...well, they won't offer it even for a fee. Bet you a $1 that the new L67's Supercharged 3800 hits 270-280hp from GM. Yep, they'll offer it in 04, I'm pretty confident in that. That's a whole 'nother board though

See my comments on depreciation too. The market...us the consumers set depreciation. Not sure why everyone thinks that SUV's are still holding such high values. Look into understanding leasing a bit in detail or talk to a financial planner to understand more, but in the end, Imports only hold their value more because consumers will pay more for them. Ever wonder why a Honda can command such high value? Go count how many Oddessy Vans or Pilot SUV's you see at local dealers. Heck, compare the number of Honda Dealers vs GM in your area. Don't forget that GMC, Chevy and even Olds still...all sell the same trucks. Supply, demand and the almighty Dollar, not GM or GM dealers set what your SUV is worth. Just my thoughts.

My take on leasing can be seen on my site.

tim

mlauricella

Do you have an annoying squeak that you cant find? I bet you do, as I have had one since the day my 6/02 build LTZ got delivered.

I finally located it, after having the rear doors adjusted, hood things lubed, third brake light housing tighened....

Its coming from the driver side roof rack...I can hear it loud and clear when I slam the rear driver side door. I thought this would be an easy fix, so I took the crossbars off, took out the 4 star head screws holding on the rack, slid the inner track out, and the whole side came off.

I lubed everything, with wd-40, tighened everything back down, and, well, IT STILL SQUEAKS!!!!!

An easy way to tell if its your rack, hit the side of it with the palm of your hand...Mine squeaks right aroung the trailing edge of the rear door.....

Any suggestions would be appriciated...If im not able to fix on my own, I will request a new roof rack, as this is driving me crazy...:(

tlauro

No squeaks on my LTZ. Build date of March 02.

Try pure silicon spray. WD-40 isn't really a lubricant but rather a solvent and can damage rubber and many other seals. Pure Silicon is key.

jmw4

I agree that the market does determine the depreciation of vehicles in the end. Why do Honda or Toyota hold their values better? First, there is no rush on behalf of the owners to trade them in within a year or two due to mechanical issues. Thus there are fewer used ones to begin with on the lot. If you do find a used MDX for example, buyers have a higher confidence level that they won't be stuck with someone else's problems. Consumer report has an entire section on used vehicle best bets and unfortunately for us as owners of these SUV's these will most likely not be included. Certainly the issues that are made public on these vehicles would scare off many used car buyers. Add to this the high rebates and 0% financing and it equals a high level of depreciation.

ficuss

The story has it that the government asked a chemical company to come up with a formula for something that would displace water from electrical and other equipment. After trying 39 formulas that did not work, the 40th formula did displace water hence WD40, water displacement formula #40.
tlauro is correct, WD40 is not a lube. One of the most useful applications for WD40 used to be spraying it inside damp distributor caps of cars that would not start on cold damp days. This usually removed any moisture inside the cap and if all else was ok, the car would start. This is one thing I don't miss about the older cars. The newer ignitions and spark distribution systems are much more dependable.

To the poster who was overjoyed at getting 26.5 MPG going to the coast. What was the mileage on the return portion of the trip from the coast. Going to the coast is a usually lot of downhill. Going from the coast is the opposite. I once got 67mpg going down a hill in Ohio. Unfortunately I had to go back up the hill on the return trip.

Frank

smmiller

My overall average gas mileage so far is 13.9. that's 1.1 less than claimed city mileage. I'm less than impressed so far with this aspect of my vehicle.

tlauro

While I too would agree that 13.9mpg isn't something to be happy with, the delta is very reasonable (for 3.73 equipped Triplets) considering your avg. speed was probably much greater than the 20mph avg that the EPA used when setting the figure.

"that's 1.1 less than claimed city mileage. I'm less than impressed so far with this aspect of my vehicle."

envoy2002

Had my Envoy serviced for a slew of things, of which was the front end squeak/noise when turning left and going over some kind of a bump (like into a driveway)... noise problem fixed..report said "nuts and bolts loose" under front end. Hmmmm. Also, I mentioed that the fog lights really bounce around on bumps and they referenced the TSB on the front bumper braces. Glad to say that about 50% of bumper looseness is resolved. The amount of play (looseness) in the bumper is reduced and the fog lights (which of course on in the bumper) dont move as much over small bumps anymore. Finally...something done right! Then again, today driving back from Detroit to Columbus, out in Boondock Land my display panel went black. Wouldnt work even after turning engine off and on, but did work when after being off 40 minutes once back in Columbus. Onstar diagnosed code as U1000 and was diagnosed as "computer modules not interfacing" and was told to have it "ASAP towed to a shop" (per OnStar procedure). Wasn't about to do that 2 hours from home, and thus drove it back -- bummer --- couldnt speed, oh well. I guess I should have guessed something bigger was going to happen when 20 minutes prior to failure my steering wheel volume/AM-FM /Station preset buttons failed to work.

choots

My little 20 mile trip that I got 26.4 mpg was not to the coast, or from the coast, it was along the coast, at a constant elevation of very few feet above sea level.
Carl

barbz

The TrailBlazer seems to be full of problems. Auto Week magazine says they

"..want to choke someone at GM because of near-constant trips to dealers for diagnostic testing of this problem and that."

The TrailBlazer is constantly breaking, one thing after another.

http://autoweek.com/longtermtests/index.mv

tblazer503

I am not ultimately thrilled with my MPG, but I have been averaging a realistic 14.5mpg per fillup(about 10days and 250mi 16.9gal) add the 5% figure because I have 5.6% bigger tires, and I get about 15.5 MPG. Not impressive by a long shot, but expected. My first 2 tanks were about 8.5 and 9.75MPG respectively. after my few mods, it went up about 2mpg, so I was getting about 13mpg before hand... of course it is more tempting to open it up with the intake and exhaust... =o)

adjguy

well guys, I think I am really gonna get sick. And definitely going to need some therapy thanks to the "General". First let me catch you up if you dont know. GMC bought my 2002 Envoy back due to so many problems, well, besides the numerous problems we still loved the Envoy so we thought, hey, how in the heck could we get another lemon? OMG was I wrong.

Coming home tonight. for the heck of it i decided to pull over to a quiet area and listen for any sounds coming from the motor. Now folks, i almost nearly puked when I heard the knock knock knock knock. Its the same darn knock that GMC replaced my motor in the 2002. It fades in and out. I cannot beleive I am going to have to go through this all over again. I only have 1500 miles on the motor. To say the least I am really down in the dumps right now. What a foolish move on my part for going with GMC again.

GMC=giving migraines constantly
ADJGUY

cmack4

What exactly are the systems of your engine knock? I've heard some report piston slap on cold starts when idling. Personally, I've never heard my engine make as much as a peep though.

tblazed

Seems to me that if there are valid improvements in transmission shifts, fuel mileage, etc. for the 2002s, GM ought to continue to support that year's model at least through the warranty period. Like MicroSoft does by issuing updates and service packs for Windows. Sure wish I could get into the program in my TrailBlazer to adjust those shift points. Maybe someday.

Adjguy, well so much for the "new, improved" model! Guess the new improvements in the engine do not necessarily address engine knocking noises. More likely improvements to reduce manufacturing costs. Like the new "polymer coated pistons". They probably went to that so the tolerances could remain sloppy and quiet the piston slap with a coating of "polymer". How many of you have worn off the coating of "polymer" (i.e., PTFE or Teflon) on a frying pan? I guess that the new polymer coated pistons and that added cost has been more than offset with the simpler harmonic balancer and removing the oil level sensor.

Oh well, I did convince a friend this weekend to forget a GM triplet for now (I don't want the responsibility!) and go look at a Mercury Marauder.

scottc454

An oil level sensor is nice, but how much do you really need something like that? The thing might come in handy after 180,000 miles or so, but you'd have to start burning a lot of oil. I wouldn't miss it.

tblazed

I don't have it either on my LS but the point was, just another cost-cutting measure reducing the features from one model year to the next. As far as the necessity of that feature, I know of two incidents where someone went to a Quickie oil change place and in one case the filter was left loose, in another case the drain plug wasn't tightened and fell out a few miles down the road. With the proliferation of these quickie places might not be a bad idea to have a way to monitor the oil level if you use those places! I agree though in normal circumstances an oil level monitor is pretty much useless with an engine that uses almost no oil between normal oil changes. With the excessively extended oil change intervals they say you can get with these though some people might need an oil level sensor.

mattlissy

I purchased a 2002 XL with Technology Package July
9, 2002. I have almost 4,000 miles with zero problems. No sqeecks, no knocking. MPG 20-21 interstate driving. 16 MPG all around driving.
Its hard to believe some people are having so many
problems. I am very pleased with my XL.

caldwell52

My Chevy Parts Counter having problems finding the RIGHT part number for the FRONT Splash Guards for my 2002 TB EXT with Factory Running Boards. Has anyone purchased them for this model or know the correct GM Part number. Apparently there are at least 3 different numbers. (so I'm told).

2k_impala_ls

I am with you, I had the chance to get the exact TB with 3.73 gears but got the 3.42's. Like you I thought I would get better mileage. In mostly city driving I have been getting about 14 mpg. I only have 1200 miles, hope it gets better. I got my K & N saturday and I am putting it in today. Maybe that will help. I also got my husky liners, will post some pix as soon as I get rid of stupid computer virus.

2k_impala_ls

here is a link to GM Acces Website. If you have the factory Boards, the front flaps will not work to see go to http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/accessories/modellistTra.html

I have the GM add-on boards and the guards will work. See pix on my site http://www.trailblazer.homestead.com

kgbkahnk

not true, not true..

i've got the GM factory boards on my LTZ and had the dealer throw on a set of 4 moulded splash guards (with ugly white bowtie, which i promptly removed) before i took delivery.....looks great, too

same with my brother and his Envoy....factory boards and GMC moulded flaps

sorry, but unfortunately i do not have/know the part number(s), but my dealer let me look at what they had to offer before installing them, so i could choose between just the flat, black truck mud flaps and the moulded guards.....try calling another dealer to see if their parts dept knows a bit more about it.

adjguy

cmack4: right now the knock is very very quiet(the same way it started in my 2002, then we took a trip to Vail, Co. and things got much louder up in the mountains), I had to pull down a deserted street, turn off the air, and anything that might make noise. I left my doors closed and the windows up, then just listen, its there, and I almost guarentee its in yours. Thats the best way to hear it in my opinion, but I am also a DJ so I got a great ear, when you lift the hood you have to deal with fan noises and others so it is harder to make out for regular listeners. This was after a 45 minute ride too, so not sure about piston slap, its just plain knocking. Sometimes it gets a little louder, then it will quiet down. But I can actually feel the knock resinating through the vehicle, and through the steering wheel. but you have to really concentrate to do that.

I have drove this thing like a baby. my shift points are always below 2500rpm if not lower. I am constantly pissing people off with my slow starts, but really wanted to try and be easy on the motor and hope it wouldnt start knocking, well that didnt work.

GMC is a joke, and for them to continue selling us vehicles that are defective is a crime.

GMC, mark my words, YOU WILL PAY. Just look at what happened to Anthony and Opie when they tried to cheat my girl out of a contest. )

ADJGUY

scottc454

Knocking is caused by premature detonation and doesn't happen at idle because there isn't enough cylinder pressure. It could be piston slap or something else.
As for how being a DJ helps to hear engine noises, I don't know what kind of music you're dealing with there.

cmack4

Granted, during an engines break-in period, it's not a good idea to over-rev the engine. But, keeping the engine at low rpm's after the break-in period isn't necessarily a good thing, and in many instances can actually cause more harm than good! Your other post indicated that you have about 1500 miles on your new engine, which should be past the typical break-in period (most suggest between 500-1000 miles). My suggestion would be to drive it for the next 500-1000 miles more aggressively than you commonly would, and see if the knocking goes away. Knocking normally indicates some kind of friction, and it could just be that your engine is still tight, since you haven't hit the high rpm's yet.

tblazed

Hmmm... I too was a DJ at one time and between the tinnitus and high frequency hearing loss I have from several years of loud music I would think those conditions would help mask the noises!

ficuss

adjguy: what was the reason for GM buying back your first Envoy. Was there at least one very serious problem or was it just too many minor problems to fix? I know you don't want to hear this, but you should think about buying the extended warranty. I bought one after they replaced my engine. Now I don't care what noises my TB makes. They will repair it for 75K miles. I doubt I'll have it past then.

Frank

ross1962

Actually, WD40 was developed by General Dynamics Astronautics Division to displace water on the skins of their Atlas rockets. They sold the formula to a chemical company, but at least when I was working on Atlases in the 90's, WD40 was still used on the rocket skins and was applied with a mop.

tblazed

Heck all this time I thought it originated as Water Displacemant-40 but during WWII! http://www.wd40.com/AboutUs/our_history.html

gam2

tlauro: The dealer was trying to rip me off. Used
02 Bravadas are going for $28-29000 around here.
They wanted to make a quick $7-8000 on my trade, on top of what they would make on the replacement vehicle. As expected, a letter to the dealer has gone unanswered.

Regarding customer service, I was talking Oldsmobile Customer Service. I have an open complaint file with them at their headquarters.
They tell me the Olds reps do not have individual e-mail addresses. Doesn't matter. I got the same response to every letter I wrote. It's time to take a different avenue.

adjguy: Think class action suit!

GAM

scottc454

gam2, that's what dealers do. They always try to low ball you when trading in a vehicle. Stealing trade-ins is easy money for them. If I ever tried to trade in a car and they didn't try to low ball me, I'd think they're stupid. A lot of people don't do their homework and get screwed on tradeins. Who's fault is that?

The way I see it, I let the dumb guys get screwed and generate profit for the dealers. That way they can afford to give out good deals to more enlightened and persistant folks.

I don't know why people get all bent out of shape at the dealership experience. Nobody can make you buy or sell anything and you have the freedom to visit multiple dealerships. Capitalism at its finest.

vtripicchio

Has there been any "new" remedies for the wind-noise...last week the dealer replaced the weather-stripping(i knew this would not work), and no change....I believe this is a design flaw, and may never be fixed....For GMC to call themselves "professional Grade" is crazy. Why can't they create a permanant fix and issue a service bulletin for this problem? Maybe it's me, but i can not stand that amount of wind-noise in a brand-new design. PS, my engines knocks a little as well, especially when going up-hill. I only use regular unleaded, should I try plus or super?

robfrompittsbu

caldwell, I have the TB EXT also (since April '02) and am having the same problem. The problem is for the EXT only apparently. Anyone else have any success on this one (I have no running boards, just the standard molding along the bottom sides). The front flaps we tried did not fit the gap in the molding....any other EXT owners...HELP!

ron_m

Could someone provide me with the part number for the front bumper fascia support bracket kit that I read about a while back on here? Supposedly GM came out with a fix for this particular problem, but the dealership that is working on my 'bucket of bolts' TrailBlazer says that they aren't aware of any such support bracket kit.

Thanks in advance!

Ron M.

envoy_xl_in_pa

I have an '02 Envoy XL, with the factory installed running boards. Contrary to what my dealer thought, and also contrary to the GM website, the factory "GMC" molded mud flaps fit on the truck on all four corners, even with the factory boards. I had to get the mud flaps from the parts department myself and show the dealer that they did fit - then they agreed to install them. I have had them on since May, and they make a big difference in the amount of road dirt that gets on the rocker panels, even with the factory running boards in place. Good luck, the molded guards do fit the XL, so I can't imagine why they wouldn't fit the EXT, since they are basically twins.

tblazed

TSB 02-08-62-001

I knew I saved that TSB number for reference someone posted a month or so ago .

barbz

Is there a way to fix the piston slap noise ?

2k_impala_ls

I now have K & N pictures and info, also pictures of my husky liner floor savers and info.
would like to start a page od edmunds townhall user pictures of trucks. send me a .jpg file and I'll put it on.
http://www.trailblazer.homestead.com/

navigator3740

about GM. I think the new design of the T/B, Envoy is fabulous, great engine, nice looking, drives wonderfully. But looking at all the problems on this board, and this piston slap thing is very bad news. GM's alleged comeback will be short lived if they don't get this quality thing under control, like they ever had it under control before, I guess..... It's a shame. They're killer good looking......

tblazer503

I just looked at an 03 compared with my '02 Trailblazer, and it seems that my LS 1SC was a steal now... to get it comprable you would have to PAY an extra $1400 MSRP plus you don't get the hood light, rear air, and other small stuff... Since when did the SAB become optional?? Very interesting... guess they weren't selling enough and had to move some of the good stuff up a notch... =oP

jw4gm

Is there a triplet out there with over 100k miles? 50? I saw a 33k posted awhile back. Are these things going to perform over the long haul? I only have 16 and am well pleased thus far.

mytrip2

My Envoy w/build date 03/01, 4:10 gears/ air susp only has 40,000K on it. These are mostly interstate miles at 70-75 MPH. Just pulled front brake pads, could not detect any wear. Only problem I have is the cooling fan will lock up when the temps are above 90F. I know that's what it is designed to do, but it does annoy me sometimes.

L Webb

cmack4

For what it's worth I found a website devoted specifically to "GM Piston Slap"... http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/gmpistonslap/ It in no way is related to the vortec 4200's (looks like it focuses primarily on the 6.0L V8's in Silverado's), but it looks like it has some useful information for those of you with knocking engines.

Personally, I've tried everything to hear a knock in my engine, and it just isn't there. Even when cold, it doesn't make an audible knocking noise... even though every engine will theoretically have some knock, since it's impossible for the piston and sleeve to expand and contract at the same rate under differing heat conditions.

The people who are actually experiencing an audible knock should closely monitor their oil consumption. While some oil consumption is acceptable in the combustion process, any changes in the normal consumption is often a sign of premature wearing of piston/sleeve walls.

On a side note, if a problem would start to exist, it should be an easier fix on the triplets, since the sleeve that the piston travels in is a separate component from the block itself. Looking at the 6.0L pics, it appears that the sleeve is integrated into the block, so the entire engine block needs to be replaced versus just the sleeve.