Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

ficuss

That's the problem with the legal system, they have strict definitions. A car can be a lemon to an owner without being legally a lemon. The triplett's list of problems is so varied that many like my former 02 TB did not legally qualify to be called a "lemon", but they are certainly troublesome enough to sell them or trade them in. 15 to 20 different problems and recalls do not make a car a lemon legally, but they should.

tidester

A car can be a lemon to an owner without being legally a lemon.

Yes, and that is one reason we have laws and regulations do deal with such matters. Without those standards no one would have protections since every disagreement would either be ignored or tied up in the courts for years. Are existing standards fair and reasonable? Perhaps not. Are they uniform? Definitely not.

tidester, host

ficuss

How can a "standard" not be uniform? A standard can be proven (tested) many times with the same results each time. One of the problems with "lemon laws" is that they vary by state. Since manufacturing is spread out over many states, the laws within the state are written to some extent to protect the manufacturers within the state. Some states will throw a three time offender in jail for life, even if the offenses are relatively minor. Why not throw Execs. in the same jail for manufacturing offenses. Pinto, Corvair, Audi 5000, the list can get very long.

snoking

We have had the Rainier for about 6 weeks now, and they should start a reward program to Rainier Sightings. We have only seen one other on the road! We drove the I6 and the V8 and bought the V8. There was no comparison in the way they drove. With the I6 I felt that I had to push to make it run at speed on the hiway. With the V8 is just rolls along. Mileage average is 16.734 so far. I believe that on a long freeway trip it would be in the high 18's or low 19's. When I drive it, mileage goes up, when wife drives it mileage goes down. Figuring out she must have a lead foot. There is no way that I would have paid 40-42K for it. We got a 2004 demo with 5782 miles on it for 31. Full warranty, minus the miles. Loaded with everything but DVD and Nav. We like the XM radio, as we have it on the boat, in the house in two places and in the RV. Ours has an analog/digital ready cell phone. They have a program that you can share minutes with your personal Verizon cell phones. However the cell phone will have to be upgraded to digital for this, so we just added the extra first year 100 minutes to the free 30 minutes for 19.95.

If it was me driving it all the time, I would be looking to install stiffer shocks, however my wife likes it "just the way it is". Here is my list of things they should improve.

1. Front drink holds/center console. :mad: Move the parking brake to kick panel and install better center console.
2. Front seat lateral support.
3. Cruise control on the steering wheel. OH NO already 12 buttons there.
4. Funky hi/lo beam push/pull. Why not click it like other cars. Maybe this is a GM thing. I have not owned one for many years.
5. Quiet air compressor for rear suspension.
6. Rear seats that fold down without moving the fronts ahead a bit.
7. Better AWD system (as reported by others). I have an email into Buick about this system. I am a little affraid to send my wife into the mountains with it next winter until I know more about it's handling in the snow. Reports I have read are all negative, with fishtailing and pushing in corners listed as short comings. Seems the car could use a four wheel traction control similar to Honda's or others. With posi-traction in the rear and the need to turn the rear driveline more than the front for it to kick in, you have both rear wheels spinning and the fishtailing before putting power to the rear, and the minute that happens, it appears that the system goes back to rear wheel and you start all over again.
8. Gas struts on the hood. 42K cars should not have a rod to hold the hood open.
9. Fix soft hump in climate control system. Appears others are hearing the same thing. I do not see a TSB on this issue.
10. Better storage pockets in doors and dash. Have these guys every looked at a Honda.

I have to say, I purchased this vehicle on a Sunday night on impulse and tried to backout of the deal on Monday morning. Dealer would not let me do that. Wife loves it so far. Deal was pretty good, with them giving us 2225 more for our 2001 Honda Accord, than the Honda dealers would on a trade for a Pilot. So I call the Rainier our accidental SUV. As in I bought it by accident.

For a body on frame vehicle, Buick has done a very good job of refining this vehicle to drive fairly well and it is very quiet on the road. It came with the tow package, and I would have had to spend another 1K on the Honda to add that feature.

If you like your TB and want to step up a notch, then take a look at the Rainier.

SNOKING

tidester

How can a "standard" not be uniform?

Obviously, they vary from state to state which we both pointed out and, obviously, we're straying further from the topic of this discussion.

tidester, host

ficuss

you're right

gmfan

Well, I decided to take a look at the 05 Buick Rainer today, RWD, 5.3 V-8. Asking price started at $36K and the dealer said they would go down to $32K, which is not bad; however, these vehicles are starting $3,000 too high in my opinion given alternatives in the auto marketplace. Even the new TB's and Envoy's are priced $3,000 too high these days! Where are the deals GM? With gas prices and interest rates creeping up, what haven't the manufacturers countered with better incentives? Why do we as a society continue to pay such high prices for these vehicles? Everything we buy new has gone down in price due to competition: cell phones, TV's, VCR'/DVD's, flat screen TV's, cameras etc, but the price for new cars continue to sky rocket. It is almost as if the auto industry has conspired with each other to set the bar at a certain level and keep on increasing the price even though cars are built faster and more efficiently today than forty years ago. Well, that's it for me and I refuse to by another new vehicle until the tide turns. I told the sales guy if he could get within $50 dollars of my current monthly payment, I would sign. He could not get within $200 per month!!! GM listen up: I am not idiot, and the fact a manufacturer thinks people will buy based on a rebates, which may psychologically work on some people, is a joke! The trade in value on my 02 TB is only $11,000, which means the value of my vehicle has dropped over $4,300 a year? That depreciation is probably in line with comparable amercian vehicles, but I am disappointed with deals especially since the the 2006's will be out shortly. Luckily, I am still enjoying my TB and have one more year until payoff. I guess I will not be helping GM's numbers for a while until things change. I thought things changed back in 2002 when I bought my brand new TB for $23,800???? It is almost as if GM has so many similar models that they are competiting with each other? They need to simplify, simplify, simplify and re-identify themselves.

snoking

OK, I signed up with InfoTraxx and have been reading TSB's. Pretty interesting. GM says that it is the compressor cycling on V8's only, making the thump. No fix at this time.

Delayed Engagement of Front Wheels During a Slip condition is TSB 04-04-21-001 Needs TIS software version 11.5 released November 10th, 2003 or newer.

03-08-44-020 deals with Bose radio may have poor fidelity.

03-08-111-002C seems to the latest on clip paint of rocker panels. If they approve you get the Assist Steps installed and repainted.

Snoking

ridgley

Hi there,

I'm just curious if anybody has caught the spot, which I'm sure lots of folks have, where the SUV driving exp. is compared to the taming a of a wild beast??

Considering making the move to something more family friendly, but these spots got me to thinking about the difficult driving issues...even went so far as to check their site and ended up finding a freebie game to test out my driving skill on the 'beast'....I think it's here www.esuvee.com/landing.html pretty fun game which my Son got a kick out of ....

I like seeing how safe driving is a forefront issue, but should I really be concerned about this in my upcoming purchase??

thanks

tblazed

"Everything we buy new has gone down in price due to competition: cell phones, TV's, VCR'/DVD's, flat screen TV's, cameras etc, but the price for new cars continue to sky rocket."

Not necessarily... Price of a 16 oz jar of Ovaltine in 1973 $1.13, today a 12 oz jar is $3.89, similar price increase for coffee, a gallon of gasoline was 22-28¢, now 10X that price, a new 1970 "loaded" mid sized car with power steering, power brakes, manual windows, and AC was $3500-4000. Today that would be considered a stripped vehicle that no one would want to buy. Now, air bags, ABS, leather seats, emissions controls that have reduced pollutants as much as 99%, power-everything that's expected these days, plus the low maintenance, compared to the old points-plugs-rotor-dist cap tune-up routine that was common every 5-10k miles back in the "cheap" old days. Cars back then lasted 75-100k miles. Now they are just mid-way through their life at that mileage.

The incentives have now all been built into the MSRP. 2002 was a good time to buy - just when all the huge incentives became popular and expected, and before the mfgrs could begin decontenting and raising the base price to compensate.

snoking

What are you going to buy? Wife really likes driving her Rainier. I like a bit of a stiffer ride. Rainier drives more like a large luxuary car, than a mid size SUV. But turns very sharp and the rack and pinion street is pretty good. SNOKING

gmfan

You make good points. I understand inflation exists on commodities such as Ovaltine, coffee, milk and bread. But the inflation trend or consumer price index for vehicles seems a little excessive and out of line. The housing industry is another example that is getting riduclous in our area. Yet, people continue to pay for them including myself. By the way, it took the sales rep over one hour to tally up some numbers on the Rainer. Games, games, games. Either you can do it or not, but don't drag it out. Has anyone else noticed fewer of the new TB's on the road than the older 2002 or 03 models? $28,000 for a new TB is riduculous,especially with no light under the hood, no glove box light, and a cheap plastic steering wheel. What's up with the GMC Envoy Denali? Are they going to start competing against the Buick Rainer?

dmathews3

When I buy a new car with trade I tell the salesman that this is the car I want, here is my trade. You have 30 min. and then I leave. I've had 2 call me at home with better deals but both times I have bought elsewhere. One said he could match my deal after he had his chance. I told him to knock off a grand and I would deal, if not I wasn't going to screw the guy who was honest with me out of his deal.

tblazed

$28,000 for a new TB is riduculous,especially with no light under the hood, no glove box light, and a cheap plastic steering wheel.

Guess I am out of touch on the '05s other than a few I have seen on display. Briefly looked at one a few weeks ago with the black leather interior and better bolstered front seats. They did get that right finally. Very nice at first glance. Did not know they went to a plastic steering wheel, I guess on the entry level LS?

Read elsewhere someone complaining their new $56,000 Cadillac Escalade was missing the underhood light that was on their old one they traded in. Apparently even the Caddys get decontented.

tblazed

Remember the Ford Explorer - Firestone rollover settlement a while back? Ford's funding the one year Esuvee ad campaign - to "educate" the public that SUVs handle differently than a car.

Only place I have seen that ad is on Speed Channel.

tblazed

As far as dealing with a car salesman over the price, when I bought mine I already knew the "invoice", the holdback, the incentives, etc. from doing a little research on the internet first. One salesman I almost had a deal with started at a high price, near MSRP. I came back with a price I knew was way below their cost. We went back-and-forth a few times and ultimately we were at about $700 for the dealer. A fair profit I think. Unfortunately he left to go to dinner when I tried to call him just as I was driving out of the parking lot to tell him to be ready in the morning to wrap it up, next day was his day off, so in the meantime I found a better deal on-line with exactly the options I wanted, only it was 200 mi N in Oklahoma City. Drove up there and bought it. A couple of more days passed, the salesman calls and wants to know if I am still interested!

In D-FW area, I don't think I've seen 3 Rainiers on the road. GM's probably figuring there are a lot more outlets to sell Envoy Denalis than Buicks.

imadad2

gmfan, be patient. I bought my 2004 last year around father's day. $4,500 off with $500 loyalty rebate. GM was making money last year. The TB's and Rainer's will get huge rebates this summer. GM loves to play their little game, and if you are patient and can play along, you should be able to get what you want. I bought my 2004 LS EXT at invoice with $6,500 in rebates. The $5,000 listed above as well as $1,500 from my GM card. I would not be surprised if you could get 1 or 2 percent below invoice during the summer. GM has to lower their prices or their SUV's will be sitting on their lots. The prices will drop. Buying any GM 2006 model in the fall makes no sense to me, because I can buy the same exact model some 8 months later almost $10,000 cheaper. Good luck.

twinrotts

Been driving on the Hotchkis install a bit over a week now and am pleased. Can not really distinguish any loss of comfort but truck behaves better in turns.
Definitely worth the $$

twinrotts

Was reading some posts about the GM Northstar engine and saw some comments about the benefits of running the engine hard. Was suggested that to keep rings clear of carbon you needed full throttle driving habits with some degree of frequency. Then was reading some Subaru posts and someone was claiming the benefits of mashing the pedal at least each tankful.
So what's the real deal? Is there any benefit to beating on modern engines? If so, I'm screwed with the way I baby mine :surprise:

eruss44

Hey there,imadad2....I just read your post #16522 concerning holding off from buying a new vehicle early in it's selling year....Well, if you recall, you offered VERY similar advice to me about financing and being patient about purchasing a TB....I believe our brief exchange was over in the"buying experiences...or a similar thread, last summer....Well I must say that you are 100% right about holding out and being patient....I bought a 2004 TB LT Sept. 26th (brand-spankin' new, 24 miles on the odometer) for 3% less than invoice, then 5k off, and another 1k off (in the form of 2 dealer holdback coupons they applied) to make it a pretty sweet deal....I'm REALLY glad that I was talked out of a "SmartBuy" by all you good people on this site,too!!!! Life's been great with my new TB, just turned 6,500 miles on her...I'm really sorry that I got off-topic, but I finally found the right time to thank y'all!!! Be patient, all you eager beavers!!! :shades:

01_hoe

The GMC Envoy Denali in both SWB and LWB are now available. Drove one the other day. Very nice driving. Available in 2WD or 4WD. I personally like the 4WD option better than Buick's AWD. GM let The Buick Rainier have the 5.3L V8 for 2 years to get them kick started. I don't think Buick has made much progress, many don't see Buick as a truck. GM should have let the TB and Envoy have a V8 before now, the Dodge Durango Hemi has sold many with the V8. I was truly amazed at the smoothness of the 5.3L V8 over the 4.2L I6.

gmfan

I looked at a 2005 LT and the one I looked at had plastic steering wheel. My 02 LT has a leather wheel and it was standard.

gmfan

You can get the 5.3L in the Envoy Denali?

imadad2

erus44 ... Glad to hear you got such an awesome deal. The big three American auto makers all do the end of year sales stuff. GM, I have noticed, starts near the end of June and runs specials until they get rid of their vehicles. IMO, the best time to buy a GM vehicle is July - September. It sounds like you got a better deal than I did. I still wish I had gone with the LT instead of the LS. I liked the LS rims better as well as the black side molding. The vehicles were about $5,000 different, but if I had tried to go 3% below invoice like you did, that would make up a big chunk of it. Also, I am glad to hear you are loving it. Not a lot of people sing the praises of the TB here, so it is noce to read it.

gmfan ... I have the V-8 5.3 in my truck and love it. I get the same gas mileage, and have 30 more horsepower with a lot more torque. I love that V-8 and am glad I bought it. The Envoy Denali XL offers the V-8. I am not sure if the 5 seater does. Check on the GMC website. I am sure you can find out for sure. I'd do it, but I am to lazy.

d2000one1

Was there ever a resolution to the vibration issue on the triplets?

imadad2

http://www.gmc.com/specs/specs_content_files/specs_engines.jsp?brand=envoy&vehicle=denali&- cmp=2005ola&pl_code=MGMC9KTC4030P477272B409391S0

This link states that the Envoy Denali comes with the V-8 standard. I stand corrected.

ross1962

I love it too. The only negative character of it is when you hit a pothole. BANG! :surprise: That's due to the urethane bushings.

tblazed

"when you hit a pothole. BANG!"

To help with that I run 30 lbs in the front tires, 28 in the rears, unless I heavily load it, then I will run the same higher pressure front and back.

eruss44

Imadad, I also like the black side moldings much better than the color-match ones that I currently have...Just the other day, in the most remote section (I park there on purpose) of our local supermarket parking lot I came out of the store to find a dime-sized gouge in my driver side molding,OUCH!!!....Some nitwit obviously "doored" it and didn't want to stick around for any discussions with me :mad: ...SO, I am tinkering with the idea of re-applying black moldings that have the TrailBlazer name on them to spruce her up to my liking...Anyone know of the least expensive source(without doing a huge google search HA-HA!) for the GM '04 TB black side moldings??? I realize that the '05 moldings are plain jane, so I'm not interested in the '05 version... Nice to be back at the site here once again!!! Thanx, ERUSS44~

01_hoe

Might look on Ebay for the black moldings. Have seen them from time to time there.

tblazed

...black moldings that have the TrailBlazer name on them...

Looks like, for the front doors, 15185709 and 15185710 ( black with Trailblazer nameplate), and for the rear doors 15180287and 15180288. Check GMPartsdirect and GMPartszone for pricing. Be ready to spend $200.

wlbrown9

Yep. Bought the Envoy XL LT about May 14 or so last year. Had not been in the GM dealership in several months. The new salesman I had talked with was no longer with the dealership. Found the Sales Manager and he set me up with a more experienced salesman. SM rummaged around on his desk a little and said, yep, they just added $1000 additional rebate on the Envoys (and a few others) that day, maybe around May 10th. That put them up to $5000 rebate. Test drove and decided to try and deal about Friday....found out that morning that the wife qualified for the GSM supplier pricing. Got the paperwork and that really took the hard work and pain of trying to deal out of the process. If GM follows their pattern, esp with the recent large loss, I would expect some good incentives soon...could be wrong though.

Bill

dmathews3

To help with that I run 30 lbs in the front tires, 28 in the rears, unless I heavily load it, then I will run the same higher pressure front and back.

Kind of lite in the back tires. They call for 35. Now you are getting into the same problem Ford caused themselves by lowering air pressure for a better ride, which in fact heated up the tires until the blew. :mad:

gmfan

I just heard S&P has downgraded GM & Ford to junk bond status. If another rating organization steps in and agrees with S&P, the vehicle incentives may come back sooner than we thought. I want to support GM: GM, give me good incentitives so I can help by buying the Envoy Denali!!! I want the V-8 in the short wheel base.

-gmfan

imadad2

eruss44 ... sorry to hear about the door ding. Some nit wit keyed my rear quarter panel when I was eating at a restaurant. I wanted to kill someone when that happened. You spend so much on the vehicle, and then some moron ruins it and runs like a coward. Karma will hunt them down and pay them back.

I think the 2004 black moldings look best on any TB. I'd suggest anyone replace their moldings with them. I wish I knew a place to get them cheap, but all I can suggest is you might get lucky at a "pick a part" junk yard.

Why GM changed the 2005 black side moldings I will never know. Maybe they did it to sell more LT models. That is another change made in 2005 that is ruining the TB. Like I said in another post, I love the design, but with all the changes they have made on the TB. I will never buy a 2005 TB. They changed to much compared to the 2004 model. Good thing I did not get a 2003 or 2002. I might be screaming even more with the changes. Nice going GM. I don't mean that in a good way.

imadad2

That is not good. I was employed by a company that was graded junk bond and it was downhill fast after it happened. gmfan, you might be right. A fire sale could be coming and quick. GM & Ford will have to reduce their debt and the only way to do that is to sell cars and trucks.

snoking

The 35 in the rear would be if you are at 3400 GAWR of the rear. Front is 2950, GVWR is 6001. Our 2004 Rainier V8 AWD numbers. You would really have to weigh the front and rear separately to know how you "might" want to run air pressure with a light load. In normal light usage, the rear is most likely lighter than the front, so you do not need the full 35 lbs of pressure, AS LONG as you air up when you load it up. The last part being the key.

My tires (Michelin P255/60R-17's) are rated to 2039 lbs at 35 lbs of pressure. So in reality you do not need the full 35 lbs to handle 3400 Rear GAWR. As 35 with these tires in good for 4078 lbs. SNOKING

onlyagirl

I'd asked for help a few weeks ago about what I need to get checked before my warranty expires....
One this was that "clunking" noise and what I call a "creak" underneath when making turns...the guy said it's all related to the same thing and they are ordering parts.... he said something about it being the seals and someting about induction ?? On the invoice it says "suspension" repairs... but of course they had to order parts so it will be about 2 weeks before it's repaired.... does this sound like the sway bar problem some of you were talking about??

I had regular service done and they installed a fuel filter and BG Induction service... all of that came to 287.00 dollars...is this alot? I also had wiper blades replaced.... that would just be the rubber part right? ...that was 52.00 dollars....

Anyway , just wanted to hear what some of you thought of my service work?
Since I am
Onlyagirl

gmfan

I doubt they just replaced the rubber on the blades. I have tried that before and it is a real pain. They probably replaced the whole part- I changed my wipers two weeks ago and you can buy wiper replacement part and blades assembly from any automotive store for about $6 a pair. I hate to break the bad news, but you paid someone 8 times what you should have. It takes about two minutes to install. I cannot say about the fuel filter service and BG induction service they performed- I have 65K mi on my vehicle and I have never had this service, and the vehicle runs the same it did when I bought it new 3 years ago. Maybe someone else can answer your question about your "clunking" problem - Besides the wipers, I am sure everything else was covered under the factory 36K mi warranty? Let us know

-gmfan

onlyagirl

well, the filter changes etc were not under warranty and I didn't think they would be....my brother in law just told me the fuel filter change was a good thing but he didn't know about the bg induction thing..no that wasn't under warranty either.... I didn't think anything like that was covered under warranty.... the suspension thing will be covered...he also told me to ask him next time before getting the wiper blades changed... maybe they replaced the whole thingy?? For $52.00 I would hope so! Oh, well, live and learn.....oh, and btw my vehicle is an 03 Envoy....I thought I was doing the right thing, doing the 30K Mile service...oh, well, hopefully the suspension thing will be fixed and I'll just go from here....I've never had to use the service dept at my dealership until now...except about 2 weeks after I got the Envoy the AC quit...I live in a small town about 20 miles away from the city where the dealership is and I do get excellent service from them, as in they come pick the Envoy up and deliver it back when they get through....

any other comments will be appreciated...

thanks

01_hoe

Regarding the BG Induction service, a lot of dealerships push this to allow them to charge a big price for some fuel injector cleaner. I have never personally opted for this, instead I like to use a $10 bottle of Techtron that I can get from WalMart every few thousand miles in the gas tank.

The wiper blade replacement sounds a little high also. I just had the blades replaced on the '01 Tahoe and they were $20.00 total for the front from a GMC dealer. However, you must use a genuine GM part for the rear wiper, or it will not work properly.

As you say, you get excellent service, and that is definitely worth something. Service work costs also depends on what area of the US you are located, and what type of competition exists.

Front end could be sway bar links or bushings. Hopefully they will get it fixed for you.

eruss44

Thanx, 01hoe, I'm gonna' try your suggestion first....Then, tblazed 's excellent parts look-up(great work, my boy, on the part #'s!!!!) next....I am trying to go to the store with my old lady's '97 Biuck to do the shopping from now on!!!! Thanx fellas for the help....Regards, ~ ERUSS44~

previousamigo

I just received 5 emails at the same time from My GMLink.com web site for 5 different old recalls on my '02 TrailBlazer that I have already done. Anyone else get these? Why are they so late? I remember that I did register at the site about 3 years ago but have not looked at it since.

tblazed

I've got you beat... I received 6 email notifications today, one is the old "fuel filter fitting disconnect" recall, and 5 others that are already completed! That fuel filter disconnect recall was 3 years ago - the first recall I had done!

gmoudy

I haven't received any old recalls for my 02 TB. Mine shows all were done.

imadad2

I use the Chevron Techron in my truck and car every oil change. I had a huge problem with hesitation with my Prizm. After using the Tchron, no problems what so ever. Using the Techron keeps the fuel filter and your injectors clean. One of my friends paid over $30 to have someone pour the Chevron Techron in her gas tank. It is the best fuel cleaner that I have ever used. Just pour it in right before a fill up and that is it.

I am afraid you were ripped off on the wiper replacements.

I am glad to hear you at least get good service from the dealer, and your Envoy is running well.

sabotage

Recently my truck which has not even 3000 miles, began to shift hard??? took it to gm today and they said there is a service bulletin for 04 transmission problems..Its ha hard shift into 2nd gear..Does anyone know where I can find the service bulletins for such problems??? The tech said that before 3000 miles something happens to the transmission...Didnt really go into details though..They mad me take off my cold air intake etc, incase a gm warranty rep was in..Please help a brutha out...There has to be a website with the bulletins on it!!!

ross1962

Next time you get wiper blades, by them from your local auto parts store, go outside, them come back and an sweetly ask if they can show you how to install them. I guarantee yo they will be installed in 2 minutes for free.

dsr9

Update: my 03 LS model is running great, only 1 recall and I ignored it since it was the taillamp problem and mine haven't burned out yet. I disagree with the posts about multiple design flaws, since mine and others here have not experienced those issues. A/C always works, transmission shifts smoothly, in fact it runs so quietly on the freeway I can't even tell if the engine is on! There is slight wind noise, but probably due to the quietness of the engine and tires. My opinion is that the quality of the assembly at the factory has the most effect on the number of issues with the vehicle -- e.g. sloppy assembly work could cause
the instrument panel to flash off, a/c cycling problems, or taillights to go out prematurely.

ross1962

If you floor it from a dead stop, does the tranny make a "screech" sound going into second gear? Mine's doing that.