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Comments
New topic please
Eric
P.S. I think that quick sales for the silver-autos may in part be do to their being in scant supply...I'm _still_ waiting for mine
-Dave
In short, I don't think VC will hurt the joy of driving a MT WRX enough so that MT fans must consider an AT WRX.
Be happy with what you've chosen. Never mind what the other chose, they're happy with it. :-)
There are people whose only choice is AT - don't spoil their dream of being in a WRX. MT:AT which is superior - they each have their purpose.
-Dave
I think we have to admit, these cars have their own ablilities, and I don't think it's really fair to compare them with other kinds of cars for anything other than personal preference. They just are not the same thing, just like the auto vs the manual is not the same thing.
I personally don't buy into the idea that you can make either one act like a RWD, or a FWD for that matter. A week or so ago, I was in a situation where I was making a turn around a blind intersection and low and behold, here comes a car, I nailed it, in 2nd, and the thing kinda just stood up and completed the turn all on it's own. Wow!! what a ride! It had a little bit of side skid, but it was very little and the front wheels pulled it right out of it. And I was up the road like a shot! This took place on a concrete surface with a slight dew on the pavement. The lady in the other car gave my car a strange look at the next stop light! like What is that!? It was kinda scary, but fun at the same time.
Ken
IMO, MT + VC + Skilled Driver > AT + VTD any day of the week. Don't take the subtraction of skilled driver from one side of that equation as an insult. I'm simply saying the skilled driver part is deminished so far with the AT that it no longer becomes a factor. Yes you can downshift in the AT, but ultimatly the computer has the final say what happens which is why the car wouldn't react like the above example.
I am not saying that rally cars don't meet my standards since they have the VTD because rally cars would never be equipped with an automatic transmission. It's the combination of the two that causes me to pause with the AT taking the brunt of the blame. No doubt that the AT with a VC would would be light years behind the MT in stability and handling.
The reason why the auto has the VTD is probably to make it FEEL more like the manual when accelerating and handling. It is probably also to make up for the lack of control that happens when you equip a car with a automatic transmission.
I'm not taking issue with the existance of automatics or the desire of the people to buy one. I am taking issue with the fallacy that the auto's are somehow superior to the manuals simply because they have the VTD. The VTD exists in the auto's in an attempt to level the playing field and to try to offer a consistant experience between the two transmissions and really should not be a consideration when you make your transmission choice.
IF the VTD was avaliable in the MT, there would be no question that you would buy the manual.
XT6 + AT + Rcompounds > WRX + MT + Kumho V712s
I have #s to prove it too.
I'm not a die hard AT fan (although that is all I drive) but driver skill and training is worth more than the small difference between the AT and the MT on the WRX. Drive what *YOU* feel comfortable in.
-mike
So how do they work? Well, they certainly feel a little stronger when I stomp on them. Others who have had the 4-pots for a while say the biggest difference is the lack of brake fade on the track. So, I'll have to wait a couple of months till track/autocross season begins. At any rate, they look great - big fat calipers painted black with a solid "SUBARU" logo on it. (Finally got my NASA card!)
-mike
-mike
-B
Why has one other possibility been ignored ?
AT + VTD + Skilled Driver ???!!!
Any skilled driver (after getting used to the vehicle) can capitalise on the strengths and minimise/mask the weaknesses of a car and/or its transmission. It does not apply to MT alone. A professional will extract every little bit of that tremendous torque-transfer capability of the VTD-AWD (through the torque sensing planetary gear differential + Multi-plate transfer clutches) and make sure that the better turn-ins provided by the stiffer springs would be utilized to the fullest.
Nobody who is driving in a car beside mine, suspects that the Auto-WRX I drive is an Auto. Everyone thinks it is a MT. And I am not a driver anywhere close to a real professional who can push the envelope way beyond what I can do.
Later...AH
Or a sign on the side that reads... "Bet you think this is a 5 speed, huh!"
Or maybe he drives "incognito".
Ken
If you believe that a skilled driver w/AT will be beat by an MT driver then there is nothing I can tell you that will change your mind.
In general I don't agree with AHs militant forcing of AT on people, but I think the MT guys aren't cutting enough slack to the power of ATs in 2002.
-mike
In general I don't agree with AHs militant forcing of AT on people, but I think the MT guys aren't cutting enough slack to the power of ATs in 2002."
AH also thinks a Acura TL will beat a GTP.
My secondary point is this. Even the auto drivers have said that manual can be (and for the most part is) more fun. Now since we (or at least I) believe that that VTD does not gain the AT any significant advantages over a VC paired with a MT, is the increase in cost of the AT plus the decrease in fun worth the increase in convenience? That's the question that only the individual can answer, but at least it's the CORRECT question.
I just don't know why anyone would choose the convenience over fun, this car is meant to be DRIVEN, not steered.
We are all Subaru fans here people.
rex author: My uncle has an acura TLS, and I'd put my money on that over a GTP, if there are some curves involved. Off the line the GTP may be faster. It would be close though.
Sunday SUnday SUnday: Anytime AH wants to auto-x his AT WRX v. my AT XT6, I'm there, he can have his springs, but I get my R-compounds
-mike
I read the Type-S can click off a low 6 second time; although Edmunds has it at 6.6, Ive seen it as low as 6.2 something. Not too shabby for a slushbox FWD. The Type-S would likely be my choice over a GTP, if I had the money to make the choice.
-mike
In the exact same comparison test where the TL got the 6.7secs 0-60, the Infiniti I-30 which has both hp and torque greater than the TL and is lighter by a couple of hundred lbs, fetched 7.4secs 0-60. This is on the same day, same time under the same conditions. So it is not merely a matter of HP/Torque/Weight alone. Gearing plays a very important role too. Also, the TL spanked the I-30 in 0-30, 0-40, 0-50, 0-60, 0-70, 0-80, 0-90 and the quarter mile. So it was a rout.
The TL-s best 0-60 time is about 6.18secs, which is faster than any of the above cars, including the supercharged GTP. Also, the TL-s has 260hp vs the 240 of the GTP, even though torque is larger in the GTP. Now that the TL-s has come out with the 6-speed transmission, the GTP does not stand a chance at all.
TL is very similar to the Accord V6 except that the TL has a larger engine (3.2L vs 3.0L) and a 5-speed transmission (vs 4-speed) with very aggressive gearing. It also has more torque and horsepower in addition to having a more aerodynamic body. Top speed of the TL is about 155mph while the Accord loses steam at 125mph. Also, they do not share even a single body panel, even though quite a few of the suspension components are shared.
When I purchased my car, the TL-s was not available.
Later...AH
Can't remember.
TWRRRRRRRRexxxxx
I hear Subaru is reading these posts and solving the problem by taking the tranny out of the WRX and just connecting the turbo directly to the wheels.
Hope all of this gives us all a laugh....
In fact, a friend took me out for a spin in his new Boxster. It wasn't much of a ride though because he had to slow down anytime something even resembling a bump or pothole appeared, which is every 200 feet or so on the local highways.
By the way, while at the dealership, they showed me the new OEM 17" wheel available with 5 spokes. That thing was a beauty. It looks a lot better than in the pictures, and it was incredibly light! It couldn't have been any more than 16 lbs. If you're looking into 17" wheels and want factory rims wihtout paying that ridiculous $3000 for the BBSs, they are definitely the way to go. This site has a picture of one (bought my calipers here as well):
http://www.subaruwrxparts.com/per_wrx.html
Also, Whalen Tire is selling a gorgeous 17" Enkei forged aluminum wheel, 16 lbs, for just $181 each. If you're in the market for one, you should check it out. They apparently go for over $360 MSRP. Guys on i-club are buying them up pretty quickly.
http://www.whalentire.com/wheeldetail.cfm?wheelnumber=34377080HS&size=17
-Dave
Hypov, you're in Brooklyn? I'm in Porspect Heights. Come to the i-club meet in Queens this Saturday.
Might be going bowling (my neglected past-time) this Saturday and get achy all over again. If nothing churns from it, I'll probably come by...
[I can hear Paisan, "come on, forget bowling and head on over to Queens!"] :-D
-Dave
-mike
Ed
-mike
-mike
That said, MT sounds like fun - heck why do I always choose MT when playin them arcade racing games anyway - but being from a mostly urban place, I dunno about the practicality. Games are games, and heck I'm not even that great at those, and in real life I think I'm just more comfy with AT. Although as someone has said, it could just be that I've never had a chance to experience MT. Plus the point about the better AWD in the auto sways me in that direction. So does that huge thread at i-club with all the slushboxers supportin each other. And finally add the fact that yeah, I'm admittedly not the most coordinated person, and that I've never driven an MT, makes it hard for me to choose the MT, despite the probable decrease in "fun" to be obtained from the AT...
In any case it was great to see everyone posting info up and helping me out. In the end, my conclusion: head down to the Subie dealer, ask to test drive the Auto-WRX, and actually see how it goes. Of course that's not gonna happen tomorrow, but (hopefully) in the near future.
I guess everyone's tired of hearing the whole MT/AT thing anyway, so let's just say case closed...
-mike
If nothing's official right now, what would be the most-likely date for Subaru to release genuine info?
I was planning to buy a WRX this June, but if there will be real improvements to the car for next year I might wait, and either buy the new/improved version or get a good deal on the "old" version. It's hard to keep waiting like this; I have the money now, so that's not the issue, but the longer I wait the more I have for down payment without tapping into my emergency-living funds.
DjB
-mike
Well, guess what? Toyota uses a VC, too!
So it boils down to the tires, basically. His criticism applies to the difference in tires or other factors, not the nearly identical AWD sytems.
-juice
- Hutch
The point in bringing the TL into the equation was to compare its acceleration to the Auto-WRX, since both are Auto and TL is a pretty fast car as a reference point. Since the Auto-WRX is as fast or maybe even faster than the TL, you certainly would notice a huge difference when moving from a Sunfire to the Auto-WRX. That was the point I tried to make.
Take care,
Later...AH
Anyway, it just hit me that while everyone replied with lots of info on AT vs MT, how about the possibility of a manumatic/tiptronic/sequential sportshift in the future for the Auto-WRX? The MT can keep it's 5 spd, but is there a chance Subaru would add some type of manumatic for the AT WRX, like what Acura did with the the RSX (NOT the Type S, just the regular or premium) and TL. I've read that the performance from using manumatic is roughly the same as having it in automatic, but it's just the ability to "feel" like I'm shifting gears that I'm looking for. In my mind it's just a nice option that some people (like me) might want for their auto cars.
Please, no replies telling me I should go learn real manual instead...I'm just curious about this possibility for future (say, 2003) models of the auto-WRX.
Thanks...
However, before you go ahead and choose an automatic/manumatic. Let me get in a few words in the MT/AT debate.
I drive a manual as my daily driver (Civic SiR) in Vancouver, but on occasion get a chance to drive the g/f's Celica GT-S, which has a manumatic. I've also taken a Prelude w/ Sportshift and IS300 for test drives and all I can say is that these "lower-end" manumatics are nothing but a fad. I found that I tended to leave it in drive and let the computer do the work. If I need to pass on the highway, I'll just hit the overdrive button, pull the lever to 3, or mash the gas and wait. Maybe I just haven't had a chance to live with a manumatic on a daily basis. So IMO, a manumatic is a nice feature, but only slightly more valuable than a regular auto.
That being said, a manual is not just about shifting the gears. It's about being in more direct control of the car. I find that I feel more of a part of a car when driving stick. That's the "fun" part. The car and I as one.
The convenience of autos is definitely a great plus, but IMO, does not outweigh the loss of connection to the vehicle.
I also think I've become a better driver after I learned manual; my SiR is the 1st one I've driven. I'm more aware of the road/street conditions. I've got to pay more attention to the lights, to the other drivers, so that I'm more ready to react. Could I pay more attention while driving an auto? Sure, but the mere presence of the manual forces me to focus more.
If the main item in your CON column is that driving a manual is a "hassle", then I think you deserve to give a manual a try. Trust me you won't regret it in the long run.
I too used to think that there's no point in getting a manual when an auto will do most things I ask of a car. But, after driving a stick for 3 years now, I can't imagine buying an auto. I know my future WRX/STI Wagon will definitely be a manual, in 6-speed please.
Cheers,
Jim
I see what you're saying about being a better driver using manual, but from my own experience as an AT driver I would think otherwise. I pay close attention to lights, conditions, openings, etc., and that's how I manage to get around fairly quickly. However, I think that if I had a manual car, my mind may be occupied with gear selection as well as these other things. Granted, after driving manual long enough I suppose that shifting would be "automatic" (hmmm...maybe use another word? heh) but as I've mentioned in posts before I'm worried that due to my lacking coordination skills I might screw everything up!
In any case, if I WERE to get an MT WRX, it wouldn't be anytime soon, cuz I'm not sure I wanna lay down the dough for a nice car and mess it up trying to learn MT in it. I'd have to go learn it (prob. from some driving school as someone said so I can beat on their cars...heh) first.
Anyway I'm just rambling, thanx for your post!
TWRX
I learned how to drive manual from my roomate in college. He owned a 3000GT which I drove from time to time at school. He also owned a hot rodded 1972 240z. This was the car that I learned how to drive manual on. Mmmm, 260HP on a very very light car.....Anyways...
I never had a moment's doubt in my mind that I wanted a manual WRX from those experiences. The MT drew me in and really made me feel like I was DRIVING, not just steering. Sure on my auto cars I got to the point where I knew where the throttle position had to be in order to make the auto switch, and i was known to downshift it manually from time to time. However, that just wasn't the same enthralling experience. IMO, what draws you in is the clutch.
Now, after a month and a half of owning my first day to day manual, I have to say it's become second nature. It's not a hassel in any way what so ever. I'm from western PA (pittsburgh specifically) and we have LOTS of hills IN the city itself. Bascially conditions that you would think would make you long for an AT. I frequently have to do the start and stop routine on very steep hills and such. But, it's become no more difficult to slip the clutch and feather the throttle than it was to point and shoot with the AT.
I'm also noticing other things about my driving style that has been altered by driving a manual. I do like that it makes you focus more. It makes me scrutize the road in front of me. "Ok, there's a car with it's brakes on three cars in front of me, should I downshift, back off so I can keep my rpms so I don't have to downshift, or brake?" MT in many instances forces you to think far in advance of your actions, and that is never a bad thing. It takes no skill to drive an AT (not to say that you can't in fact HAVE skill though), but you must develop some level of skill to drive a MT. And once you get that skill, it will never be a hassle for you.
DjB
It doesn't take skill to drive an AT or an MT poorly, but it does take skill to drive an AT or an MT quickly/properly.
-mike
I am not including people who drive Auto-trans cars who are eating, drinking, talking on the mobile and barely keeping the car in the lane. That kind of driving requires no skill whatsoever.
I would presume that anyone who buys something like an Auto-WRX is an enthusiast and is not of the eating/drinking/cellphone type of person. Someone who concentrates on the driving experiences and the behavioral differences of the car under various conditions and circumstances.
Later...AH