It's hard to believe that something that looks so bad could be made to look like this.
I love the two-tone paint schemes of the 1950s cars. You can buy the old car like that Silver Hawk on the craigslist for only $1,900 and make something beautiful out of it. It is such a rewarding experience. I suppose that is why I sold my Avanti, (which was in pretty good shape) and kept the tired old 1955 Commander I bought for only $700.
I don't think the one on craiglist is a good restoration project. Probably better as a parts car. You'd be buried financially in that restoration. That car needs everything and besides, it's a 3 on the tree, not very fun to drive. If it were an automatic car or a 4-speed without rust, that might be more tempting.
The whole car is sad to look at. Who knows what lurks underneath. This thing needs a complete frame-off restoration, which would be foolish at this point in time, unless you think years of hard work is worth .50cents on the dollar.
it would be an odd choice for a rescue, since you'd spend the same money on a nice Golden Hawk or a GT Hawk, both of which would bring you greater returns and prestige, AND driving pleasure as automatics or 4-speeds.
You start working on a rust bucket and you're never done.
I love it when they say the car hs "some" rust and then they tell you it needs new floorboards.
Funny, living most of my life in California we never, EVER even thought about rust. Even living next to the ocean the worst thing would be some chrome pitting maybe.
Very often, when you hot tank these rusty parts or panels they just disintegrate. Try making new doors if you can't find any. And if you have to scrounge all new body sheet metal from wrecks, you end up with a "bitsa" car that won't fit right. And if the frame is compromised, you end up being the new Studebaker factory.
Some will say this is all 'an anomaly', but there sure have been a lot of 'anomalies' lately then, like the recent $100K Golden Hawk, and $75K Avanti. From a post on the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum:
The excellent magazine, Sports Car Market reviews the high-end auctions around the world. Suffice to say they see far more Ferraris than Studebakers, but they often have nice things to say about them.
Here's what they had to say about a 51 pickup sold at the RM Auctions event in Phoenix in January.
"1951 Studebaker 2R5 S/N R573122. Sahara Sand/brown vinyl. Odo: 38,916 miles. Comprehensive restoration completed in 2007 by former Studebaker Owners Society president. Excellent paint and finish work. Good functional interior. Equipped with "climatizer" heater and painted rear bumper. This model was called the "Champion," but was also known as the "Econ-O-Miser," as the engine yielded 22 mpg. Cond: 2+ SOLD AT $35,750. Considering it was the last car in the auction , this restored pickup did rather well. Quality pickups of all varities have been goingup of late, and this one continued that trend. An attractive truck at a fair price. "
And the 58 Packard sold at Silver's event.
"1958 Packard series 58L 2-DR HARD TOP. s/n 58L6655. Bluff gray & Cliff gray with black and white nylon. Odo: 20,788 miles. 282 ci V8, 4bbl, auto. Sales invoice confirms it is configured to original specs. Miles believed actual, stored since 1969, recently cosmetically restored. Better paint quality than possible when new. All trim original and professionally buffed out, bumpers have been replated to show quality. Light edge bubbling of vent windows. Show-quality engine bay detailing, undercarriage a bit dingy but original. Wonderfully nice original upholstery, with moderate carpet soiling and yellowing of the original white dash knoobs. Cond: 2+ SOLD AT $60,480. One of 675 two-door hard tops from the final production year for Packard, but perhaps better known as "Packabaker," since the 57s and 58s were actually Studebaker Presidents. Tthe wide grilles and headlight pod extensions made them look like automotive platypuses--an undignified end to a proud marque, to say the least. Still in 21 years of reportings auctions, this was the first I'd seen cross the auction block , so they're rare. Combine that with low miles and being among the last Packards, that explains the stellar price."
Others used the headlight pods, like Dodge and Mercury, although chromed them...what I don't like about the '58 Packard is the double fins in back. However, being that the highest sale in the auction wasn't that much higher than the Packardbaker, it confirms what I've thought from looking at eBay for several years, steady, now...these Packardbakers, in equal condition, bring more than other '50's "regular" Packards, except for Caribbeans and the very best Four-Hundreds. Confirmed by a guy I know who has owned and sold both.
It seems to be becoming clear that the unique if not 'offbeat' nature of Studebaker products has begun to appeal to the general old-car buff who wants something different.
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Yeah, that's an understatement. They certainly were anomalies in the marketplace. My friend owns a huge classic car business in California (Kassabian Motors---www.myhotcars.com) and he can't sell a Studebaker for love or money.
I would expect that anyone who paid those prices for those cars at auction would not be able to sell them for the same price in the private market. It's not going to happen.
In the case of the restored pickup, we should keep in mind, given the costs of restoration, that the owner most certainly lost money.
I just did research on a one owner '53 Starliner hardtop, a solid 3+/2- car with 80K original miles, V8, OD, stickshift. After doing an exhaustive search with comparables and auction results 2009-2010, I figured the car at around $16,000. This was a car that the classic car dealer was reluctant to even consign in his showroom. But of course, he's not commenting on the merits of the car, just commenting on how he has to run a business.
Imagine, though, if this were a '53 Chevy Belair hardtop in that condition...it'd be worth double that. More common, but more valuable. Goes to show you, the market is dictated by supply AND demand.
For the Studebaker lover who has time to shop around, this is all good news. For the person who pays top dollar at auction, not so good news.
In the case of the restored pickup, we should keep in mind, given the costs of restoration, that the owner most certainly lost money.
Here is a response to the post on the S.D.C. forum from a guy who has sold hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of Studes on eBay, by far more than anyone I have known, about the selling price of the pickup:
That kind of money for a 2R is pretty impressive, especially since they are cheap to restore. Maybe $1000 total for chrome and interior, add 5K for show paint and you still have lots of room at the bid price. We have a nice 3R that we want 6K-7k for, maybe we should toss a few bucks at it ?
I'm a third-generation Chevy owner so far as current cars go, and no one in my family ever worked in the auto industry, but even I think comparing a '53 Chevy to a '53 Stude hardtop is like comparing Kate Smith to Ava Gardner. No accounting for the general public's taste, I guess.
Your friend may have had that past experience with Studes, but he might be surprised if he tried selling a sharp Stude now. My '64 Daytona looks like it will be getting sold to a well-known Stude guy in Australia as it's more of a project than a non-wrench like me can handle.
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Well that's his idea of "show" I guess from pushing street restos out the door, but I can't imagine quality work for those prices. I just appraised a '55 Buick and the chrome bill alone was $4500 and paint was $12000.
On the other hand, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a Stude pickup either, so I'm not saying he's wrong. But "his" Studebakers and the one that sold for $30K plus are probably not in the same ballpark.
As for selling Studebakers, I think here again, we aren't talking about cheaper project cars. My friend was saying that he can't get good money for restored Studebakers--they just sit on the floor if you ask any kind of serious money for one.
The classic car dealers are all about "paying the rent". They aren't going to floor cars that don't move right out, and I can't say as I blame them.
I don't really see any difference between a '53 Chevy hardtop and a '53 Studebaker, at least not in terms of build quality or competence. I think the Studebaker is nicer looking though.
The guy did sell a dark green '64 GT Hawk R2 automatic for somewhere around $35K--or more--in the past two years. It had had much restoration work done by the previous owner (deceased), and he finished it himself.
Here's a post of his from the SDC forum about pricing:
I'm a NADA adviser and try and correct obvious errors, but they put more weight on auction sales and reports from classic car dealers than my comments. I can try and convince them that R2 option is a 50% or more premium on Larks for example, but they have not changed it in 10 years. I still can't be sure of values myself, and I've been doing this for 50 years.
I believe his points about the truck was that there is almost zero chrome on that Stude truck that sold for $35K, and the interior is bare metal/plain vinyl, readily available.
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A 50% premium on an R2 engine is too much, because it's just a regular Studebaker engine. If it's only 20% premium between an R1 and R2 Avanti, why should the Lark be 50%?
A Lark R2 sold on Ebay last year for approx. $12,000. Ran well, needed body restoration---but I didn't see any 50% premium operative there:
Besides, if he sells Studebakers, he's probably not a disinterested party in terms of setting values. Which may explain why NADA has the highest prices of any of the price guides, by a long shot. NADA is great for sellers, bad for buyers.
Speaking of which, I found a nice bargain Studie for you!
If a Lark R2 sold on eBay last year, he probably sold it. I have got to believe he sells more Studebakers than anybody, and his opinions are based on hard sales.
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I think I remember that R2 Daytona...did need bodywork and new red paint. That $12K price was absolutely driven by the R2. This guy sold a '63 R2 Daytona Hardtop that looked nice but was missing some emblems (readily available), for $25K probably four years ago.
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A 50% premium on an R2 engine is too much, because it's just a regular Studebaker engine. If it's only 20% premium between an R1 and R2 Avanti, why should the Lark be 50%?
Simple. An Avanti starts with an R1, which this guy says is a 15% premium in price over a standard Lark V8 in his sale experience. Supercharged Larks are bringing more than Avantis, if in perfect shape...it's apparent folks like the 'sleeper' nature of them.
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So are my opinions based on hard sales...the thing is, how many sales and who's reporting them? If he's a dealer, he's not an appraiser, he's a salesman. (and apparently a very good one).
All I can report back with some certainty is that in California, Studebakers are "dead" so if you want to do this guy a favor, tell him to buy out here, ship 'em back to wherever he is selling, as there is apparently big money to be made if what he says is true.
I tried to "floor" the '53 Studebaker Starliner (nice car!) to two major classic car dealers and they refused the car. Given that they've both been outrageously successful and own 4 stores, I think that in the California market at least, they know what they are doing. I was rather surprised actually.
The 63 Avanti R2 I appraised hasn't sold either, last I heard. So if I'm LOW in my estimates, and they still don't sell, you tell me what's going on, because it doesn't make sense to me. :confuse:
I peeked at 5 different price guides and they all rate the R2 Avanti substantially higher than the R2 Lark. So I think might need to re-assess his opinion on that particular comparison.
NADA CPI Old Car Price Guide Collector Car Market Kelley Early Car Edition
As I'm sure you know from your own experience, rarity does not always translate into value.
Matter of fact, he has a California guy who buys for him out there. He lives on the east coast and sells all over, including Australia.
As you know, there are many variations of Lark. A Regal two-door sedan sells for much different amounts than a Daytona convertible, for example.
All I'm saying is, I trust this guy for Studebaker values over any brick-and-mortar guy who has attempted to sell two in the last decade. With the prices at the auctions of late, it apparently makes sense to advertise on a wider-than-usual scale for a really nice Stude.
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I found posts about the R2 you mentioned which sold for $12,100 last year. It is the one I remember. It was indeed rusty and definitely needed paint. Here are some of the guy I've mentioned, comments about the car:
R2 Larks bring over R2 Avanti money because of their rarity
quote:Originally posted by jbwhttail
Unbelievable!!! Congrats on your sale Brandon.
I hope the new owner already has the needed parts to make the car a driver or restore it, A guy could be another 10K into the car before he ever gets to paint.
It is an addiction! I sold a full package 64 HT in a little better shape a few years back and the new owner spent that on show paint and body work. Having said that, over 40K is the current record sale price for a R2 Lark, so the new owner should be just fine. BTW, I was able to restore my old R2 for a bit over 11K, but only farmed out the $2500 paint job.
I might add, the $40K Lark was an eBay sale, not an auction like B-J.
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"R2 Larks bring over R2 Avanti money because of their rarity "
Well he's way off base about that, based on overwhelming market evidence to the contrary.
I think these guys are talking out of their hats, quite frankly.
I did some research on the $40K Lark sale, and the consensus was that the seller is definitely underwater on that car. That car was no "$2500 paint job" (which seems a shame to put on a classic car)
Sure, you spend $60,000 to restore a Super Lark, you might get $40K for it---and the point is?
Every time I see one of those "fender birds" I remember a time when a guy I knew sat down on one HARD. He was standing inside the engine compartment doing something when he slipped.
Wow, I know from my '63 Lark Daytona R1 Skytop, I didn't have $700 in NOS doors, rear quarters, trunk lid, hood, or grille or rear panels. NOS upholstery was available (including door panels). NOS bumpers and guards were available too (not show quality of course). I cannot for the life of me, imagine anyone being $60K in a Lark restoration of any kind unless their restoration shop had no idea what was easily available for a Lark--which I can believe would happen.
I stand by the fact that nobody sells more Studes than this guy. That is widely known in the national club.
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I'm not questioning that he sells a lot of Studebakers...I'm questioning WHAT he sells and for how much he claims to sell them for.
As we both know, all old cars are different, and the quality of the merchandise can vary in the extreme.
You simply cannot paint a car to show quality for $2500, and unless the paint, and everything else, about a car is show quality, it's not going to bring big money.
One sees this all the time in the old car hobby. Someone puts a large fortune into a car, and gets a whopping big price for it because it is so magnificent, while still losing money for himself.
Then, everybody with a tired, clapped out, or quickie-restored version of that car thinks that there's is worth the same money.
Two lessons here:
1. The price difference between a show car and a driver is vast.
2. You cannot beautifully restore any Studebaker in the world to #1 condition and make any money on it. (You can however, take a very decent car, spiff it up and flip it for a small profit--like the '47 Stude I showed you).
My first car memory of any type is being yelled at by my dad for pushing the 'start' button he had installed on my mother's sky-blue '53 Starliner. The ignition switch was bad, so he bypassed it. It look like this (but blue fixed this thanks to Shifty), but with rust bubbles in the expected places:
p.s. - While the various comments on Studebaker values pro/con are interesting, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. I think we know the opinions by now, what I'd like more to hear about are the cars themselves.
Ah yes, the blue car you first posted looked like a Commander Regal Starlite coupe, not a Starliner. The brown one is a Starliner but since Champion and Commander body styles were the same, I can't tell which one or which engine...is that a big V on the hood?
Well, prices...ah...the perennial favorite for beer talk----my two cents is that prices are far more than opinions,--good pricing is based on lots of evidence and a broad database. Pulling prices out of a hat is fun, but that's about it. I mean, if you want to say 2+2 =5, you have to prove it.
(I will say though, that 2+2 =5 is more interesting than 2+2 =4) :P
So isn't anybody going to buy that pretty '47 coupe I posted? A paltry $6,000 bucks for a good running Stude?
Actually it would make a great rat rod but it's a little too nice for that.
My last comment on the whole issue: The $2,500 paint job has taken on a life of its own, and I'm not sure why. That was for one car that sold for $25K. The $40K Lark, I have no idea what the paint job cost.
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Oh I was remarking that a $2500 paint job couldn't be very good. Even quality materials alone would cost at least $600-$800 of the shelf, and if body work and labor were thrown in, that couldn't have left much room for a high level of craftsmanship.
If you're good with a spray gun, you can make even cheap paint look pretty good for 6 months, but it won't last.
To do any car "right" these days, is at least $40K--$60K-- I mean, if you want a local show winner.
If you want a national winner, you can double that, because that means frame-off, nut and bolt, no shortcuts and perfect accuracy.
That old expression "god is in the details" is never more true than in automotive restorations.
Here's a fun article on this subject from Autoweek:
That '47 is a good buy for somebody, just not me! Probably a function of my age (born '58)-- I like '60's Studes best, because I remember them on the street. Those Champions, though, are s-l-o-w! My brother-in-law bought a yellow '49 Champion convertible last year, beautiful condition, but it cost a lot more than $6K.
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I think I've mentioned a guy I know who is having a frame off nut and bolt restoration done on his 1953 Mercury Convertable. It's been awhile since I've seen him but I know it's been two years already.
He has scary money invested at this point and it's far from being completed.
So many questions come to mind...What if the guy doing the job dies or can't continue for some reason? Will you be afraid to drive it on the street when it's done?
Originality and patina are big now, too. Restoration is overrated. Unless you've got something worth serious money when finished...just make it driveable, maybe decent looking, and enjoy it.
I think all the fancy auto auctions and TV stuff really poisoned the hobby, IMO.
I think you could find period "speed equipment" for that '47 Studebaker---aluminum head and dual carburetor manifold. Bump the compression a little. Or certainly you could re-motor it with something interesting. I think a turbo Buick V-6 would be nice.
There's a guy in the national club named Cathcart who for years and years has been selling hop-up parts for the Champion six, but I really don't know anything else about it.
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I like the color. I like the trim proportions and low beltline of these wagons, too. I'd want one with a 3-speed and overdrive, but can't be choosy I guess. Four days left on the auction.
interesting car but there sure is a pantload of BS in the ad text. (e.e. "This vehicle represents two of the most regal American Car Manufacturers" and "They inspire and remind us of a period in American life when the quest for perfection"). I know Studebaker had a MODEL called a Regal, but really now....and Packard stopped being "regal" about 1935.
Sometimes a car would do better in an auction with far less nonsense in the ad text. I mean, let the car's rarity and real merits speak for itself.
The one he mentions at the Pebble Auction sold for $57,000 which includes the buyer's premium, so actually sale was about $51,300, so about 15% less that the auction house's low estimate. Still, a very stunning price for such a car, beating the market price by 300%. The car was described as a "rotisserie restoration" which means every nut and bolt.
I'll track this one and see how it does. Since it is not a frame-off resto, I would expect a price in the low $20Ks.
Boy, there is something we agree on...lots of BS in the ad! Anybody serious about buying one of those, one would hope would already know at least some of the history of the compan(ies) involved.
A couple years ago, the tailgate emblem for either a '57 or '58 wagon sold for over $1,000.00 on eBay. Ridiculous.
I believe "Wisconsin Studebaker" has NOS front fenders for these cars (and '56-58 Studes)...cheap. The story is that Newman and Altman in South Bend, when they were forced to move across the street to a smaller building about a decade ago, had to toss so many NOS front fenders for these cars out the window, they were piled from the ground up to a third floor window.
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I don't think the body parts are an issue, but Packard-only trim sure is. Even the taillights have been reproduced, but are still expensive. I know my buddy bought a NOS '61 Lark wagon tailgate maybe five years ago for $100; the Packard's tailgate is the same as used on Studebaker wagons of the '56 to '58 period.
If I had to "order" one, I'd pick whatever they called the lavender and white that year, 3-speed w/OD, and Twin Traction.
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Comments
Hey, it's a Hawk!
I love the two-tone paint schemes of the 1950s cars. You can buy the old car like that Silver Hawk on the craigslist for only $1,900 and make something beautiful out of it. It is such a rewarding experience. I suppose that is why I sold my Avanti, (which was in pretty good shape) and kept the tired old 1955 Commander I bought for only $700.
But yeah, no way to justify that one unless its a labor of love.
You start working on a rust bucket and you're never done.
I agree though, not for the sane.
Funny, living most of my life in California we never, EVER even thought about rust. Even living next to the ocean the worst thing would be some chrome pitting maybe.
I know a guy who had a 1941 Chevy hot tanked in a huge tank.
He didn't think it was all that bad but what came out of that tank was swiss cheese and totally unusable.
It was susposted to be a "gentle" solution too.
The excellent magazine, Sports Car Market reviews the high-end auctions around the world. Suffice to say they see far more Ferraris than Studebakers, but they often have nice things to say about them.
Here's what they had to say about a 51 pickup sold at the RM Auctions event in Phoenix in January.
"1951 Studebaker 2R5 S/N R573122. Sahara Sand/brown vinyl. Odo: 38,916 miles. Comprehensive restoration completed in 2007 by former Studebaker Owners Society president. Excellent paint and finish work. Good functional interior. Equipped with "climatizer" heater and painted rear bumper. This model was called the "Champion," but was also known as the "Econ-O-Miser," as the engine yielded 22 mpg. Cond: 2+
SOLD AT $35,750. Considering it was the last car in the auction , this restored pickup did rather well. Quality pickups of all varities have been goingup of late, and this one continued that trend. An attractive truck at a fair price. "
And the 58 Packard sold at Silver's event.
"1958 Packard series 58L 2-DR HARD TOP. s/n 58L6655. Bluff gray & Cliff gray with black and white nylon. Odo: 20,788 miles. 282 ci V8, 4bbl, auto. Sales invoice confirms it is configured to original specs. Miles believed actual, stored since 1969, recently cosmetically restored. Better paint quality than possible when new. All trim original and professionally buffed out, bumpers have been replated to show quality. Light edge bubbling of vent windows. Show-quality engine bay detailing, undercarriage a bit dingy but original. Wonderfully nice original upholstery, with moderate carpet soiling and yellowing of the original white dash knoobs. Cond: 2+
SOLD AT $60,480. One of 675 two-door hard tops from the final production year for Packard, but perhaps better known as "Packabaker," since the 57s and 58s were actually Studebaker Presidents. Tthe wide grilles and headlight pod extensions made them look like automotive platypuses--an undignified end to a proud marque, to say the least. Still in 21 years of reportings auctions, this was the first I'd seen cross the auction block , so they're rare. Combine that with low miles and being among the last Packards, that explains the stellar price."
Others used the headlight pods, like Dodge and Mercury, although chromed them...what I don't like about the '58 Packard is the double fins in back. However, being that the highest sale in the auction wasn't that much higher than the Packardbaker, it confirms what I've thought from looking at eBay for several years, steady, now...these Packardbakers, in equal condition, bring more than other '50's "regular" Packards, except for Caribbeans and the very best Four-Hundreds. Confirmed by a guy I know who has owned and sold both.
It seems to be becoming clear that the unique if not 'offbeat' nature of Studebaker products has begun to appeal to the general old-car buff who wants something different.
I would expect that anyone who paid those prices for those cars at auction would not be able to sell them for the same price in the private market. It's not going to happen.
In the case of the restored pickup, we should keep in mind, given the costs of restoration, that the owner most certainly lost money.
I just did research on a one owner '53 Starliner hardtop, a solid 3+/2- car with 80K original miles, V8, OD, stickshift. After doing an exhaustive search with comparables and auction results 2009-2010, I figured the car at around $16,000. This was a car that the classic car dealer was reluctant to even consign in his showroom. But of course, he's not commenting on the merits of the car, just commenting on how he has to run a business.
Imagine, though, if this were a '53 Chevy Belair hardtop in that condition...it'd be worth double that. More common, but more valuable. Goes to show you, the market is dictated by supply AND demand.
For the Studebaker lover who has time to shop around, this is all good news. For the person who pays top dollar at auction, not so good news.
Here is a response to the post on the S.D.C. forum from a guy who has sold hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of Studes on eBay, by far more than anyone I have known, about the selling price of the pickup:
That kind of money for a 2R is pretty impressive, especially since they are cheap to restore. Maybe $1000 total for chrome and interior, add 5K for show paint and you still have lots of room at the bid price. We have a nice 3R that we want 6K-7k for, maybe we should toss a few bucks at it ?
I'm a third-generation Chevy owner so far as current cars go, and no one in my family ever worked in the auto industry, but even I think comparing a '53 Chevy to a '53 Stude hardtop is like comparing Kate Smith to Ava Gardner. No accounting for the general public's taste, I guess.
Your friend may have had that past experience with Studes, but he might be surprised if he tried selling a sharp Stude now. My '64 Daytona looks like it will be getting sold to a well-known Stude guy in Australia as it's more of a project than a non-wrench like me can handle.
On the other hand, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a Stude pickup either, so I'm not saying he's wrong. But "his" Studebakers and the one that sold for $30K plus are probably not in the same ballpark.
As for selling Studebakers, I think here again, we aren't talking about cheaper project cars. My friend was saying that he can't get good money for restored Studebakers--they just sit on the floor if you ask any kind of serious money for one.
The classic car dealers are all about "paying the rent". They aren't going to floor cars that don't move right out, and I can't say as I blame them.
I don't really see any difference between a '53 Chevy hardtop and a '53 Studebaker, at least not in terms of build quality or competence. I think the Studebaker is nicer looking though.
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/134/
I'm a NADA adviser and try and correct obvious errors, but they put more weight on auction sales and reports from classic car dealers than my comments. I can try and convince them that R2 option is a 50% or more premium on Larks for example, but they have not changed it in 10 years. I still can't be sure of values myself, and I've been doing this for 50 years.
I believe his points about the truck was that there is almost zero chrome on that Stude truck that sold for $35K, and the interior is bare metal/plain vinyl, readily available.
A Lark R2 sold on Ebay last year for approx. $12,000. Ran well, needed body restoration---but I didn't see any 50% premium operative there:
1963 Studebaker Lark R2 Daytona
Block # JTS1471 Firewall # 63V-J8 1654
Besides, if he sells Studebakers, he's probably not a disinterested party in terms of setting values. Which may explain why NADA has the highest prices of any of the price guides, by a long shot. NADA is great for sellers, bad for buyers.
Speaking of which, I found a nice bargain Studie for you!
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/2302285277.html
Add $1000 for chrome, and you can sell it for $30K and make $23K on the deal.
All kidding aside, if it were closer to me, I'd take a look at it myself.
Simple. An Avanti starts with an R1, which this guy says is a 15% premium in price over a standard Lark V8 in his sale experience. Supercharged Larks are bringing more than Avantis, if in perfect shape...it's apparent folks like the 'sleeper' nature of them.
All I can report back with some certainty is that in California, Studebakers are "dead" so if you want to do this guy a favor, tell him to buy out here, ship 'em back to wherever he is selling, as there is apparently big money to be made if what he says is true.
I tried to "floor" the '53 Studebaker Starliner (nice car!) to two major classic car dealers and they refused the car. Given that they've both been outrageously successful and own 4 stores, I think that in the California market at least, they know what they are doing. I was rather surprised actually.
The 63 Avanti R2 I appraised hasn't sold either, last I heard. So if I'm LOW in my estimates, and they still don't sell, you tell me what's going on, because it doesn't make sense to me. :confuse:
NADA
CPI
Old Car Price Guide
Collector Car Market
Kelley Early Car Edition
As I'm sure you know from your own experience, rarity does not always translate into value.
As you know, there are many variations of Lark. A Regal two-door sedan sells for much different amounts than a Daytona convertible, for example.
All I'm saying is, I trust this guy for Studebaker values over any brick-and-mortar guy who has attempted to sell two in the last decade. With the prices at the auctions of late, it apparently makes sense to advertise on a wider-than-usual scale for a really nice Stude.
R2 Larks bring over R2 Avanti money because of their rarity
quote:Originally posted by jbwhttail
Unbelievable!!! Congrats on your sale Brandon.
I hope the new owner already has the needed parts to make the car a driver or restore it, A guy could be another 10K into the car before he ever gets to paint.
It is an addiction! I sold a full package 64 HT in a little better shape a few years back and the new owner spent that on show paint and body work. Having said that, over 40K is the current record sale price for a R2 Lark, so the new owner should be just fine. BTW, I was able to restore my old R2 for a bit over 11K, but only farmed out the $2500 paint job.
I might add, the $40K Lark was an eBay sale, not an auction like B-J.
Well he's way off base about that, based on overwhelming market evidence to the contrary.
I think these guys are talking out of their hats, quite frankly.
I did some research on the $40K Lark sale, and the consensus was that the seller is definitely underwater on that car. That car was no "$2500 paint job" (which seems a shame to put on a classic car)
Sure, you spend $60,000 to restore a Super Lark, you might get $40K for it---and the point is?
Kinda Mickey Moused but I still like it!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1953-Chevrolet-Bel-Air-Convertible-/260760138239?- pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cb683f1ff
At least they didn't hang a Continental Kit on it.
You can imagine what it did to him!
I stand by the fact that nobody sells more Studes than this guy. That is widely known in the national club.
As we both know, all old cars are different, and the quality of the merchandise can vary in the extreme.
You simply cannot paint a car to show quality for $2500, and unless the paint, and everything else, about a car is show quality, it's not going to bring big money.
One sees this all the time in the old car hobby. Someone puts a large fortune into a car, and gets a whopping big price for it because it is so magnificent, while still losing money for himself.
Then, everybody with a tired, clapped out, or quickie-restored version of that car thinks that there's is worth the same money.
Two lessons here:
1. The price difference between a show car and a driver is vast.
2. You cannot beautifully restore any Studebaker in the world to #1 condition and make any money on it. (You can however, take a very decent car, spiff it up and flip it for a small profit--like the '47 Stude I showed you).
p.s. - While the various comments on Studebaker values pro/con are interesting, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. I think we know the opinions by now, what I'd like more to hear about are the cars themselves.
Well, prices...ah...the perennial favorite for beer talk----my two cents is that prices are far more than opinions,--good pricing is based on lots of evidence and a broad database. Pulling prices out of a hat is fun, but that's about it. I mean, if you want to say 2+2 =5, you have to prove it.
(I will say though, that 2+2 =5 is more interesting than 2+2 =4) :P
So isn't anybody going to buy that pretty '47 coupe I posted? A paltry $6,000 bucks for a good running Stude?
Actually it would make a great rat rod but it's a little too nice for that.
And yes, I don't disagree at all about opinions vs. facts.
If you're good with a spray gun, you can make even cheap paint look pretty good for 6 months, but it won't last.
To do any car "right" these days, is at least $40K--$60K-- I mean, if you want a local show winner.
If you want a national winner, you can double that, because that means frame-off, nut and bolt, no shortcuts and perfect accuracy.
That old expression "god is in the details" is never more true than in automotive restorations.
Here's a fun article on this subject from Autoweek:
Four Reasons Not To Restore a Vintage Car
I think I've mentioned a guy I know who is having a frame off nut and bolt restoration done on his 1953 Mercury Convertable. It's been awhile since I've seen him but I know it's been two years already.
He has scary money invested at this point and it's far from being completed.
So many questions come to mind...What if the guy doing the job dies or can't continue for some reason? Will you be afraid to drive it on the street when it's done?
I'll take a nice driver myself!
I think you could find period "speed equipment" for that '47 Studebaker---aluminum head and dual carburetor manifold. Bump the compression a little. Or certainly you could re-motor it with something interesting. I think a turbo Buick V-6 would be nice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1957-Packard-Clipper-Station-Wagon-/120705720658?- pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c1a9f2152
Sometimes a car would do better in an auction with far less nonsense in the ad text. I mean, let the car's rarity and real merits speak for itself.
The one he mentions at the Pebble Auction sold for $57,000 which includes the buyer's premium, so actually sale was about $51,300, so about 15% less that the auction house's low estimate. Still, a very stunning price for such a car, beating the market price by 300%. The car was described as a "rotisserie restoration" which means every nut and bolt.
I'll track this one and see how it does. Since it is not a frame-off resto, I would expect a price in the low $20Ks.
A couple years ago, the tailgate emblem for either a '57 or '58 wagon sold for over $1,000.00 on eBay. Ridiculous.
I believe "Wisconsin Studebaker" has NOS front fenders for these cars (and '56-58 Studes)...cheap. The story is that Newman and Altman in South Bend, when they were forced to move across the street to a smaller building about a decade ago, had to toss so many NOS front fenders for these cars out the window, they were piled from the ground up to a third floor window.
I would be scared to death to drive that wagon. Someone backs into it and breaks some irreplacable parts?
Still, for some reason I like it!
If I had to "order" one, I'd pick whatever they called the lavender and white that year, 3-speed w/OD, and Twin Traction.