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Hey, it's a Hawk!
I love the two-tone paint schemes of the 1950s cars. You can buy the old car like that Silver Hawk on the craigslist for only $1,900 and make something beautiful out of it. It is such a rewarding experience. I suppose that is why I sold my Avanti, (which was in pretty good shape) and kept the tired old 1955 Commander I bought for only $700.
But yeah, no way to justify that one unless its a labor of love.
You start working on a rust bucket and you're never done.
I agree though, not for the sane.
Funny, living most of my life in California we never, EVER even thought about rust. Even living next to the ocean the worst thing would be some chrome pitting maybe.
I know a guy who had a 1941 Chevy hot tanked in a huge tank.
He didn't think it was all that bad but what came out of that tank was swiss cheese and totally unusable.
It was susposted to be a "gentle" solution too.
The excellent magazine, Sports Car Market reviews the high-end auctions around the world. Suffice to say they see far more Ferraris than Studebakers, but they often have nice things to say about them.
Here's what they had to say about a 51 pickup sold at the RM Auctions event in Phoenix in January.
"1951 Studebaker 2R5 S/N R573122. Sahara Sand/brown vinyl. Odo: 38,916 miles. Comprehensive restoration completed in 2007 by former Studebaker Owners Society president. Excellent paint and finish work. Good functional interior. Equipped with "climatizer" heater and painted rear bumper. This model was called the "Champion," but was also known as the "Econ-O-Miser," as the engine yielded 22 mpg. Cond: 2+
SOLD AT $35,750. Considering it was the last car in the auction , this restored pickup did rather well. Quality pickups of all varities have been goingup of late, and this one continued that trend. An attractive truck at a fair price. "
And the 58 Packard sold at Silver's event.
"1958 Packard series 58L 2-DR HARD TOP. s/n 58L6655. Bluff gray & Cliff gray with black and white nylon. Odo: 20,788 miles. 282 ci V8, 4bbl, auto. Sales invoice confirms it is configured to original specs. Miles believed actual, stored since 1969, recently cosmetically restored. Better paint quality than possible when new. All trim original and professionally buffed out, bumpers have been replated to show quality. Light edge bubbling of vent windows. Show-quality engine bay detailing, undercarriage a bit dingy but original. Wonderfully nice original upholstery, with moderate carpet soiling and yellowing of the original white dash knoobs. Cond: 2+
SOLD AT $60,480. One of 675 two-door hard tops from the final production year for Packard, but perhaps better known as "Packabaker," since the 57s and 58s were actually Studebaker Presidents. Tthe wide grilles and headlight pod extensions made them look like automotive platypuses--an undignified end to a proud marque, to say the least. Still in 21 years of reportings auctions, this was the first I'd seen cross the auction block , so they're rare. Combine that with low miles and being among the last Packards, that explains the stellar price."
Others used the headlight pods, like Dodge and Mercury, although chromed them...what I don't like about the '58 Packard is the double fins in back. However, being that the highest sale in the auction wasn't that much higher than the Packardbaker, it confirms what I've thought from looking at eBay for several years, steady, now...these Packardbakers, in equal condition, bring more than other '50's "regular" Packards, except for Caribbeans and the very best Four-Hundreds. Confirmed by a guy I know who has owned and sold both.
It seems to be becoming clear that the unique if not 'offbeat' nature of Studebaker products has begun to appeal to the general old-car buff who wants something different.
I would expect that anyone who paid those prices for those cars at auction would not be able to sell them for the same price in the private market. It's not going to happen.
In the case of the restored pickup, we should keep in mind, given the costs of restoration, that the owner most certainly lost money.
I just did research on a one owner '53 Starliner hardtop, a solid 3+/2- car with 80K original miles, V8, OD, stickshift. After doing an exhaustive search with comparables and auction results 2009-2010, I figured the car at around $16,000. This was a car that the classic car dealer was reluctant to even consign in his showroom. But of course, he's not commenting on the merits of the car, just commenting on how he has to run a business.
Imagine, though, if this were a '53 Chevy Belair hardtop in that condition...it'd be worth double that. More common, but more valuable. Goes to show you, the market is dictated by supply AND demand.
For the Studebaker lover who has time to shop around, this is all good news. For the person who pays top dollar at auction, not so good news.
Here is a response to the post on the S.D.C. forum from a guy who has sold hundreds, and I mean hundreds, of Studes on eBay, by far more than anyone I have known, about the selling price of the pickup:
That kind of money for a 2R is pretty impressive, especially since they are cheap to restore. Maybe $1000 total for chrome and interior, add 5K for show paint and you still have lots of room at the bid price. We have a nice 3R that we want 6K-7k for, maybe we should toss a few bucks at it ?
I'm a third-generation Chevy owner so far as current cars go, and no one in my family ever worked in the auto industry, but even I think comparing a '53 Chevy to a '53 Stude hardtop is like comparing Kate Smith to Ava Gardner. No accounting for the general public's taste, I guess.
Your friend may have had that past experience with Studes, but he might be surprised if he tried selling a sharp Stude now. My '64 Daytona looks like it will be getting sold to a well-known Stude guy in Australia as it's more of a project than a non-wrench like me can handle.
On the other hand, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a Stude pickup either, so I'm not saying he's wrong. But "his" Studebakers and the one that sold for $30K plus are probably not in the same ballpark.
As for selling Studebakers, I think here again, we aren't talking about cheaper project cars. My friend was saying that he can't get good money for restored Studebakers--they just sit on the floor if you ask any kind of serious money for one.
The classic car dealers are all about "paying the rent". They aren't going to floor cars that don't move right out, and I can't say as I blame them.
I don't really see any difference between a '53 Chevy hardtop and a '53 Studebaker, at least not in terms of build quality or competence. I think the Studebaker is nicer looking though.
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/134/
I'm a NADA adviser and try and correct obvious errors, but they put more weight on auction sales and reports from classic car dealers than my comments. I can try and convince them that R2 option is a 50% or more premium on Larks for example, but they have not changed it in 10 years. I still can't be sure of values myself, and I've been doing this for 50 years.
I believe his points about the truck was that there is almost zero chrome on that Stude truck that sold for $35K, and the interior is bare metal/plain vinyl, readily available.
A Lark R2 sold on Ebay last year for approx. $12,000. Ran well, needed body restoration---but I didn't see any 50% premium operative there:
1963 Studebaker Lark R2 Daytona
Block # JTS1471 Firewall # 63V-J8 1654
Besides, if he sells Studebakers, he's probably not a disinterested party in terms of setting values. Which may explain why NADA has the highest prices of any of the price guides, by a long shot. NADA is great for sellers, bad for buyers.
Speaking of which, I found a nice bargain Studie for you!
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/2302285277.html
Add $1000 for chrome, and you can sell it for $30K and make $23K on the deal.
All kidding aside, if it were closer to me, I'd take a look at it myself.
Simple. An Avanti starts with an R1, which this guy says is a 15% premium in price over a standard Lark V8 in his sale experience. Supercharged Larks are bringing more than Avantis, if in perfect shape...it's apparent folks like the 'sleeper' nature of them.
All I can report back with some certainty is that in California, Studebakers are "dead" so if you want to do this guy a favor, tell him to buy out here, ship 'em back to wherever he is selling, as there is apparently big money to be made if what he says is true.
I tried to "floor" the '53 Studebaker Starliner (nice car!) to two major classic car dealers and they refused the car. Given that they've both been outrageously successful and own 4 stores, I think that in the California market at least, they know what they are doing. I was rather surprised actually.
The 63 Avanti R2 I appraised hasn't sold either, last I heard. So if I'm LOW in my estimates, and they still don't sell, you tell me what's going on, because it doesn't make sense to me. :confuse:
NADA
CPI
Old Car Price Guide
Collector Car Market
Kelley Early Car Edition
As I'm sure you know from your own experience, rarity does not always translate into value.
As you know, there are many variations of Lark. A Regal two-door sedan sells for much different amounts than a Daytona convertible, for example.
All I'm saying is, I trust this guy for Studebaker values over any brick-and-mortar guy who has attempted to sell two in the last decade. With the prices at the auctions of late, it apparently makes sense to advertise on a wider-than-usual scale for a really nice Stude.
R2 Larks bring over R2 Avanti money because of their rarity
quote:Originally posted by jbwhttail
Unbelievable!!! Congrats on your sale Brandon.
I hope the new owner already has the needed parts to make the car a driver or restore it, A guy could be another 10K into the car before he ever gets to paint.
It is an addiction! I sold a full package 64 HT in a little better shape a few years back and the new owner spent that on show paint and body work. Having said that, over 40K is the current record sale price for a R2 Lark, so the new owner should be just fine. BTW, I was able to restore my old R2 for a bit over 11K, but only farmed out the $2500 paint job.
I might add, the $40K Lark was an eBay sale, not an auction like B-J.
Well he's way off base about that, based on overwhelming market evidence to the contrary.
I think these guys are talking out of their hats, quite frankly.
I did some research on the $40K Lark sale, and the consensus was that the seller is definitely underwater on that car. That car was no "$2500 paint job" (which seems a shame to put on a classic car)
Sure, you spend $60,000 to restore a Super Lark, you might get $40K for it---and the point is?
Kinda Mickey Moused but I still like it!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1953-Chevrolet-Bel-Air-Convertible-/260760138239?- pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cb683f1ff
At least they didn't hang a Continental Kit on it.
You can imagine what it did to him!
I stand by the fact that nobody sells more Studes than this guy. That is widely known in the national club.
As we both know, all old cars are different, and the quality of the merchandise can vary in the extreme.
You simply cannot paint a car to show quality for $2500, and unless the paint, and everything else, about a car is show quality, it's not going to bring big money.
One sees this all the time in the old car hobby. Someone puts a large fortune into a car, and gets a whopping big price for it because it is so magnificent, while still losing money for himself.
Then, everybody with a tired, clapped out, or quickie-restored version of that car thinks that there's is worth the same money.
Two lessons here:
1. The price difference between a show car and a driver is vast.
2. You cannot beautifully restore any Studebaker in the world to #1 condition and make any money on it. (You can however, take a very decent car, spiff it up and flip it for a small profit--like the '47 Stude I showed you).
p.s. - While the various comments on Studebaker values pro/con are interesting, they seem to have taken on a life of their own. I think we know the opinions by now, what I'd like more to hear about are the cars themselves.
Well, prices...ah...the perennial favorite for beer talk----my two cents is that prices are far more than opinions,--good pricing is based on lots of evidence and a broad database. Pulling prices out of a hat is fun, but that's about it. I mean, if you want to say 2+2 =5, you have to prove it.
(I will say though, that 2+2 =5 is more interesting than 2+2 =4) :P
So isn't anybody going to buy that pretty '47 coupe I posted? A paltry $6,000 bucks for a good running Stude?
Actually it would make a great rat rod but it's a little too nice for that.
And yes, I don't disagree at all about opinions vs. facts.
If you're good with a spray gun, you can make even cheap paint look pretty good for 6 months, but it won't last.
To do any car "right" these days, is at least $40K--$60K-- I mean, if you want a local show winner.
If you want a national winner, you can double that, because that means frame-off, nut and bolt, no shortcuts and perfect accuracy.
That old expression "god is in the details" is never more true than in automotive restorations.
Here's a fun article on this subject from Autoweek:
Four Reasons Not To Restore a Vintage Car
I think I've mentioned a guy I know who is having a frame off nut and bolt restoration done on his 1953 Mercury Convertable. It's been awhile since I've seen him but I know it's been two years already.
He has scary money invested at this point and it's far from being completed.
So many questions come to mind...What if the guy doing the job dies or can't continue for some reason? Will you be afraid to drive it on the street when it's done?
I'll take a nice driver myself!
I think you could find period "speed equipment" for that '47 Studebaker---aluminum head and dual carburetor manifold. Bump the compression a little. Or certainly you could re-motor it with something interesting. I think a turbo Buick V-6 would be nice.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1957-Packard-Clipper-Station-Wagon-/120705720658?- pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c1a9f2152
Sometimes a car would do better in an auction with far less nonsense in the ad text. I mean, let the car's rarity and real merits speak for itself.
The one he mentions at the Pebble Auction sold for $57,000 which includes the buyer's premium, so actually sale was about $51,300, so about 15% less that the auction house's low estimate. Still, a very stunning price for such a car, beating the market price by 300%. The car was described as a "rotisserie restoration" which means every nut and bolt.
I'll track this one and see how it does. Since it is not a frame-off resto, I would expect a price in the low $20Ks.
A couple years ago, the tailgate emblem for either a '57 or '58 wagon sold for over $1,000.00 on eBay. Ridiculous.
I believe "Wisconsin Studebaker" has NOS front fenders for these cars (and '56-58 Studes)...cheap. The story is that Newman and Altman in South Bend, when they were forced to move across the street to a smaller building about a decade ago, had to toss so many NOS front fenders for these cars out the window, they were piled from the ground up to a third floor window.
I would be scared to death to drive that wagon. Someone backs into it and breaks some irreplacable parts?
Still, for some reason I like it!
If I had to "order" one, I'd pick whatever they called the lavender and white that year, 3-speed w/OD, and Twin Traction.