Postwar Studebakers

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think I could drive those big awkward cars with 3-on-the-tree anymore. It's such an awkward way to shift. I wonder if that car even has power steering. People often didn't order it when they had the manual transmission.

fintail

I loathe column shifts.

Takes me back to a hobby car my dad had back in the mid 90s - 68 Fairlane, 289, 3 speed, manual brakes and steering...it wasn't a breeze to drive, especially on winding hilly streets,

isellhondas

Column shifts never bothered me but maybe they would now. I can't remember the last time I drove one.

I guess a good trivia question would be, which car was the last to do away with a column shifter? I honestly have no clue.

Yesterday in a parling lot, I walked by a NICE 1966 Malibu. With teh exception of some nice wheels it looked bone stock. I looked at the emblem on the front fender and saw it had the "230" emblem.

This meant that it was a six. Looking inside at the beautiful original interior I noticed it had a column shifter!

I would have taken that car home in an instant!

fintail

That Malibu must have been a grandpa's car when new.

I've seen 60s MB with a 4 on the tree...one extra gear of nuisance.

I think some lowline domestics had column shift available in theory well into the late 70s.

uplanderguy

You can still buy Chevrolet Impalas and Buick Lucernes with a column-shift automatic and bench seat. In my younger years I'd have felt differently, but even though the center front position is practically useless, I do think not having a console to hit your leg, and an open area there, gives an impression of roominess. Plus, you could slide across the seat if ever so-compelled.

Funny thing, up until midway through the model year '07, the bench seat/column shift was standard on the Impala and the buckets and console were optional. That totally flipped around in the last half of the year and the bench seat became optional! A good friend of mine (in the Studebaker hobby) bought a new Impala for his wife in late '07 and wanted bench seat and had the dealer search for inventory at other dealers 'til he found one where the bench seat didn't cost extra.

berri

I learned to drive on a big old Ford with a three on the tree and power nothin'. Had several stick cars over the years, while they are fun on the open road, not so much in traffic. As I got older I preferred automatics and cruise control (just being honest here!). The one item I don't get is an automatic with paddle shifters. No clutching makes it more like some kind of kid toy thing IMO. The computer keeps you from screwing up, so it doesn't really require any driving talent either. What's the point?

Mr_Shiftright

The Packardbaker wagon has come to a screeching halt in the bidding at $10,200....so we'll see...there are still 3 days left but seems like Elvis has left the building. Might be we'll see the difference between rotisserie restorations at Monterey and #3 cars with needs on eBay.

Actually the more I look at, the more I'm starting to like it, in an ugly mutt kind of way. Of course, I'd need a whole new wardrobe. :P

fintail

Oh yeah, probably Grand Marquis as well. I was thinking column shift manuals. Go back just a decade or so and I'd wager the column shift auto was a majority in domestics anyway.

uplanderguy

Very typical of eBay. Often thousands of dollars are added in the last two minutes of bidding. Mr. Shiftright, I'll buy you a beer of your choice if that Packardbaker sells for $10.2K!

Last I looked, it was the only '50's Packard on eBay anybody had bid over $10K on.

Here's the $25K eBay sale '63 R2 Lark with the $2,500 paint job. The front fender "Lark" letters are missing, the roof sail panel gold Lark bird is missing, but all are available. The grille in the photos is for a '62 but a new insert (NOS widely available and dirt cheap) went in before the car sold.

http://www.stude.com/5151/5151A/R2-6.jpg-.html

As mentioned previously, R2 Larks are the holy grail of Studebaker guys. When I met the original owner of my '63 R1 Daytona last fall, I gently chided him about not ordering an R2, but he said he wanted A/C and he remembered you couldn't get A/C and a blower.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's no show car and the panel fit is off on doors and hood and the seat upholstery isn't fitted well. The paint looks thick and goopy as you might expect for $2500 bucks. I'd say the guy paid maybe $5K more than he should have. For $25K it should have been a #2 car, and it's clearly a #3. But you know, no harm done if that's what you always wanted.

I never suggested that the Packardbaker would SELL for $10,200, only that the bidders are silent. I think I predicted low $20s at best.

uplanderguy

My guesses would be: '79 Nova, Omega, Phoenix, and Skylark
'80 Volare and Aspen

I think the '87 full-size Chevy and GMC pickups were the last GM vehicles to have a column-mounted 3-speed available. Not sure about Ford and Dodge.

Mr_Shiftright

Isell, I'm gonna move your post about the Chevy over to PROJECT CARSbecause this topic is about Studebakers.

EVERYONE ELSE === please let's stay on topic. Thank you, Shifty! :shades:

isellhondas

Sorry. I had lost track of that forum and didn't know where to post it.

uplanderguy

It'll be interesting to see where that '57 Packardbaker 4-door wagon ends up, in comparison to this similar-condition '57 Chevy Bel Air 4-door wagon that's also on eBay now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Bel-Air-150-210_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkp- armsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d4Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d83575097060- 06104147QQ_trksidZp5197Q2em7QQcategoryZ6160QQitemZ320683043012

Mr_Shiftright

tut-tut---you're cherry-picking here. You should compare the Packardbaker Wagon, which was top o' the line, to the '57 Nomad, Chevy's top o' the line---- not to a stripper Chevy wagon with the wrong transmission in it.



In any event, the Packardbaker wagon bidding has stalled for the last two days, now at $10,400. So unless the bids go up $50,000 in the next day, the grandiose claims of $60,000 are fading fast.

fintail

Bah, another nice enough looking car with period incorrect tires. Why?

uplanderguy

Come on, now, who's cherry-picking? You certainly know in your business that no other wagon in history is worth what a Nomad is....and that any two-door bodystyle brings more than any four-door style, in any make of car. If you're looking for past sales to see what a car you're looking to appraise will bring, would you look at that car in other bodystyles? I don't think so. A Bel Air is not a strippo...it is their top-of-the-line four-door wagon. The Chevy I listed is a body-off restoration. There are two series below the Bel Air. And as everyone knows, the '57 Chevy is America's most-popular old car (OK, maybe tied with the early Mustang).

That was the closest condition '57 4-door wagon of any make on eBay right now, to the Packardbaker in question. It could very well end up bringing more than the Packard. Let's see what the market bears.

Also, someone needs to remind me where I posted that this car would bring $60K, because I'm unable to see that.

Mr_Shiftright

No, no, I deny the allegations! LOL!

I was only approximating the closest MSRP between two given cars---you simply cannot compare a stripped down wagon to a top of the line car with a very high MSRP and a supercharger. Is a Super Lark SC + 4-speed the same car as a '61 Lark automatic?

A Nomad priced out at $2850 MSRP. The Packardbaker was about $3385.

And I never said the car had "little value". I even estimated a bid price of $20K or so for the Packardbaker wagon. I thought that was pretty fair.

Okay, the Nomad *is* iconic, so I stuffed the ballot box in that sense. Perhaps comparing to a 57 Buick or Olds wagon would be about right.

You *do* remember that I once owned 4 Studebakers, right, and that my father worked for Packard/Studebaker? I'm practically FAMILY ! :P

uplanderguy

Someone on the SDC forum said that that very car sold for in the low 20's four years ago, so it may go for less now. They're not my absolute pick of the Studebaker product line, but I could enjoy owning that one. You'd be the only one probably even at a Stude show, yet a general car show. We all know that Studebaker wasn't price-competitive until the late-50's due to their spoiled workforce and antiquated plant...I mean, I grew up in a Chevy family but can concede that. I just like the uniqueness of the cars. It's certainly subjective, but I sure like their cars compared to whatever AMC was doing at the same time.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, Studebaker couldn't compete with GM but they certainly did a better job than AMC. Remember the early 60s Rambler Americans? Talk about *cheapness*.

uplanderguy

The Packard went for $16,101.00. Bids increased $3,000 in the last five seconds. No reserve. I think somebody got a great deal, assuming that car looks as nice underneath as it does on top. I'd have paid that for it.

uplanderguy

Do Buick and Olds wagons for '57 bring more than Chevys? I was under the impression that, condition-for-condition, bodystyle for bodystyle, equipment for equipment, a Chevy would outprice the Pontiac-Olds-Buick counterparts.

fintail

I think a highly optioned Buick or Olds wagon could pass Chevy prices - especially a Caballero. The hardtop wagons seem to have a premium, which also exists on the Mopar side. High option Edsel wagons are also sought after. Wagons have finally attracted a following.

Regarding the Packard, it's an acquired taste for some (I think a 58 is even better in a bad way), but it looks decent without a ton of legitimate needs to make a nice driver, and didn't cost a fortune, probably well-bought.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say market price or a bit of a bargain. Not a "steal" certainly. That's about what a mediocre Avanti R2 would bring after all. I'd have to see it in "person" to be more precise. But really, that's about the going rate for off-beat stuff that's not pristine.

It's *very* hard to break the $20K barrier these days with anything that isn't extremely well done and/or in very high demand. and Studebaker collectors are, like most "orphan" collectors of other similar discontinued marques that produced utilitarian (a working man's) cars, not lavish with their checkbooks. There just isn't that collective WOW factor from the general public you get when you spend $$$ on a similarly priced GM car. You could buy an Impala SS clone (not a real one) in resale red with a 4-speed, in a $3 condition, for that money, and gee, that's a lot of eyeball.

Once again, rarity does not always equal value. Perhaps there is a nobility in not pandering to popular tastes in the collector car hobby (it is somewhat admirable actually) but there aren't many people with that level of self-confidence in their own tastes to spend lavishly to be different. They'd rather be different and buy a bargain.

uplanderguy

I know that personally, I don't care for anything '57 Buick or Olds. Overweight-looking and overtrimmed, but I guess that was in keeping with what John Q. Public was looking for then.

Mr_Shiftright

I was just trying to think of wagons that were highly optioned for that period. I'm not fond of them either. Personally I'd rather have one of those all steel wagons from the early 50s.

isellhondas

Anyone?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/2318449224.html

Mr_Shiftright

Geez, poor thing. I doubt you could ever bring that one back for anything even close to its value. It doesn't even look like it was IN a barn. Might be good for parts, though, especially the rare trim pieces.

isellhondas

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. What a shame.

uplanderguy

That car is a shame. A better-looking '64 (IMO) Daytona Wagonaire, bone stock, white with red interior, sold for $18,500 in June 2010 on eBay. It was a Canadian-built version. No "R" engine or anything.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd love to interview the person who bid $1500. There has *got* to be a story there---one obviously beyond normal human comprehension.

uplanderguy

The frame-off resto '57 Bel Air 4-door wagon on eBay that was mentioned earlier in this thread about the '57 Packard wagon, was bid to $10,000 but did not meet reserve. It did have a four-speed instead of the factory-correct Powerglide.

Mr_Shiftright

The seller should have turned it into a period gasser and he would have sold it for more. Either hot rod it or keep it stock but don't go in the middle, is my two cents.

isellhondas

They don't come a whole lot nicer than this one!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1952-Studebaker-Champion-Starliner-2-dr-38-000-Mi- les-/110678584336?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item19c4f52c10

A lot of money though.

Mr_Shiftright

Something fishy about the car---can't quite put my finger on it....

Anyway, try about $16,000 -- $18,000 reserve, with a starting bid of $7500 and see how it goes.

Also the low mileage claim is not well supported, and besides the car has been repainted, re-chromed, and partly re-upholstered. And it's not "top of the line" because it's a 6 cylinder.

I wonder at what point this car becomes "George Washington's Axe" --- first we replaced the handle when it rotted, and then we replaced the head when we lost the original one.

isellhondas

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I know I wouldn't trust the reported miles. If you look at the close up of the odometer, the numbers aren't in perfect alignment. An old "car guy" once told me that was a good sign the car has been "clocked" and given the fact that used to be widespread, who knows?

I don't think those "period correct" Kelsey Hayes wheels add anything. In that day, nobody would have put those on a lowly Studebaker. They are attractive but (to me) just look out of place.

So far, no bids. I think he's either a dreamer or else he's looking for that one person who just HAS to have it.

omarman

It's an interesting old car and like everyone else I think the "actual" miles are probably not 38k.

Re: Kelsey Hayes wheels
MG and other early sports cars look great with painted wire rims but those body-colored spokes on the Studebaker just look strange to me. :lemon: If I were an interested buyer I'd rather that the seller sort out the interior a bit. Seller claims the interior is all "original" but the seat belts contradict that - I'm okay with the safety upgrade but wouldn't call it original. And why do the door panels look so sloppy? Doesn't look "worn" exactly...just hastily tacked on.

Since I'm being nitpicky, google remembered to depict a fish in their Good Friday logo but they have forgotten that it's another holiday today. Happy Easter everyone!

Mr_Shiftright

Well he doesn't know how to sell a car. You use a "reserve", then you post a modest opening bid---then you communicate with bidders, answer all questions readily, and give as much detail of provenance as you can muster.

We are not interested in what the seller thinks the car is worth. The point is to establish what the buyer thinks it is worth.

lemko

Those Kelsey-Hayes wheels look like overkill on that Studebaker. The word "over-restored" comes to mind. Chances are, this car sported blackwall tires and wheelcovers, or even small hubcaps, back in the day.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe so. Perhaps he was trying to emulate the '53 Buick Skylark, which often had those wheels---but the Buick was a more upscale car.

Studebaker never could convince too many buyers to pay higher prices for their better-equipped or highly styled models, and they didn't have the resources to option their cars like GM did.

Studebakers' reputation for simple rugged dependability came back to haunt them after World War II I think. The buying public never shook that image.

AMC suffered a similar kind of drag on their upscale cars, being branded a "compact car company" but somehow managed to survive long enough under Abernethy and Chapin to move into the AMX and Javelin lines, re-organize so as to have their various new car lines share stampings and parts, and finally acquire Jeep in 1970.

Studebaker I think suffered from really bad management and couldn't pull off what AMC accomplished. Had they hired a born leader of some type, they might be alive today. Hard to say, really, it's all speculative.

jljac

Chances are, this car sported black wall tires and wheel covers, or even small hubcaps, back in the day.

I don't agree with that. It cost extra to get that Champion in the hardtop body with the extra trim, so putting "plain Jane" black wall tires and small wheel covers on it would have defeated that purpose. Studebaker had nice full wheel covers that year that did not cost much more and most Studes (except the cheapest models) seemed to have them. Our '51 and Grandpa's '52 did. Most hardtops I have seen were Commanders.

I think the car looks great. I am skeptical about the $26,000 asking price, but he might get it. Economical cars like that might appreciate in price as gasoline gets more expensive. It is getting near $5.00 here in the Los Angeles area. A gallon of gas is much more expensive than a gallon of milk. Too bad nobody makes a car than runs on milk.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think fuel economy is really much of a factor in the decision to buy an old car, do you? I mean, it might enter someone's mind, but really, these 50s cars are driven sparsely, so the gas bill isn't going to amount to much.

I can't see $26,000 on this car either. I think $18K is really all the money here, especially given that it's an eBay sale, and a botched one at that.

If the car were in a fancy auction somewhere, and if the wheels were changed to something more appropriate, (you can always sell the wheels in the trunk to sweeten the pot while sparing the car this jarring visual stylistic decision) and someone took off the door panels and could stretch them to look better, the car might bring more.

It's a very nice car, though. Not quite "show" but pretty nice.

isellhondas

Yeah, he botched the auction all right by sticking on that stupid reserve.

Had he set it realistically he could have got some competition going buit nobody is going to bite on a 26,000 reserve and a 28,500 Buy it Now price!

jljac

Most Studebaker owners I know drive their cars quite a bit. The name Studebaker Drivers Club is a reflection of that idea. We have an annual "drive your Studebaker" day. We like to drive 'em.

I drove the Commander this weekend and took it for a ride on Pacific Coast highway yesterday. I probably drive it an average 5 days a month, mostly stop and go traffic, so the gas mileage is not very good and I have to use premium fuel or the engine knocks. When I add the miles to car shows, it would be nice to get twice the mileage and pay half the cost, which a Champion with a three speed + od. transmission would do.

Ten years ago, I only wanted a Studebaker with a V-8 in it, but now, I don't go faster than 75 mph and have pretty much given up the fast lane on the freeways. Those Champions are so easy to maintain. . .no power brake booster. . .no power steering pump. . .no electric window motors. . . no dual exhausts. . . brakes last a long time. . .change the plugs and tune it in 20 minutes. The only thing the six cylinder motor does not have for the type or driving I do is the wonderful sound.

I heard a news report that said Texas recently raised its speed limit to 85 mph. Maybe I am getting old, but I think they are going the wrong way. I would not be surprised to see a return to a national 55 mph speed limit.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, so let's say 5 days a month @ 100 miles per day.

That's 500 miles at say 12 MPG with a 50s V-8, so that costs about 42 gallons of premium fuel at $4 gallon so $168/month or roughly $2000 a year (presuming you live where you can drive it 12 months a year--not usually in most parts of the country).

So if you buy a 6 cylinder champion that gets 18 mpg and runs on the cheapest regular gas, you save a whopping $700 a year.

So given two equal Studebakers priced at $18,000, would you really choose the 6 over the 8 cylinder to save $700 a year (if that much, if you drive 12 months a year)?

I doubt it, given that you'd easily spend $700 for some improvement to that very same car without blinking.

lemko

I would not be surprised to see a return to a national 55 mph speed limit.

NOOOOOOOOO!!! :surprise:

Good God! Not the '70s and early '80s again! Before you know it, we'll have 85 mph speedometers with little red "55s" on them again and cars with plodding engines that go from 0 - 60 in about from now until next Tuesday! :lemon:

fintail

I'd support a trip to the gallows for legislators who support a limit like that. It was a joke 35 years ago and it would be now.

Mr_Shiftright

Speed laws here are oppressive enough. Fortunately, most 50s cars are pretty scary over 65 mph anyway.

isellhondas

I agree but given the current fuel price crisis, going to an 85 MPH limit makes no sense whatever.

Only in Texas!

jljac

I agree but given the current fuel price crisis, going to an 85 MPH limit makes no sense whatever.

This reflects my attitude on the subject. I think that 55 m.p.h. is too slow, but with a 65 m.p.h. limit, you usually won't get a ticket unless you are going 10 m.p.h. beyond that.

Here in California, most people seem to be going 80 m.p.h. or more on roads that have a 65 m.p.h. limit. When I drive the Commander at 75 m.p.h. I rarely pass anything except commercial trucks, so I stay in the slow lane or next to the slowest.

I have to wonder how fast traffic would go with a speed limit of 85 m.p.h. Here is info about the Texas speed limit. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/07/us-texas-speed-limit-idUSTRE7366L72011- - 0407