I think Studebaker prices are actually quite good right now---perhaps stagnant over the past year, but still decent given the economy.
Let's look at eBay archive pricing:
For 63-64 Studebaker Hawk, 106 past auctions, we have:
Excellent:$22,426 Good:$13,728 Fair:$9,589
That merges very nicely with current book values and current dealer pricing.
If you averaged out ALL the Rivieras, which would show 5 to 10 times the number of auctions, and show all the rats and bad customs, I would think the prices would be lower than the Hawk.
However, the point was, given a completely equal show-down between a nice Riv and a nice Hawk, the Riv should sell for more, and sell easier.
You reach a point with scarce cars where all you see for sale are the two extremes---restored or barn finds, and nothing in the middle.
I'm going to have to do some digging but I don't think that was a stock color. I think they said it had "silver flakes" in it. In any event, it looked like a cheap paint job.
I hate it when people do nothing but make excuses for the advertised cars.
" The power antenna is in the trunk"
" The power windows don't work but it's probably a loose wire"
" The A/C just needs a charge"
" It could use a wheel alignment"
etc.... If these fixes are so minor and inexpensive to fix then FIX them instead of making excuses!
>As you said, the final bids were by zero feedback "bidders". It ended up at 26,100, which in my opinion was WAY too much for that car yet it didn't hit it's reserve?
I never trust the bidding on EBay. I still believe, in relation to things other than cars, there are fake bids set up by the seller. I watched a lot of strange things happen and tried to follow the bidding, and that didn't make sense. So I just set up my own bidding account and let the computer do it; if others are trying to run up the bidding, they can have it at the over-price.
I notice a lot of items where I thought the bidding was over nominal get relisted quickly for another run at selling. Somehow that high bidder never seems to take delivery of the item.
I assume this is true in the automotive bidding as well.
except that at a live audition, if you kick the bid, they jump all over you---on eBay, you can get away with it with impunity.
One problem with making any judgments on eBay sales is that you can't really see the merchandise.
When we see a sale for "$25,000" we really can't say whether it was a steal or an overpay or market correct, because we haven't (and in most cases, the bidder hasn't) had a close look at the car.
for instance, even WITH 50 photos with a good camera, you simply cannot see things like worn weatherstripping, scratched stainless trim, checking paint, fish eyes, orange peel, file marks, small dings, condition of suspension bushings, how it actually runs, shifts and brakes....ETC.
So you can literally have a car on eBay that looks great and is, in fact, possibly a grade LOWER than it looks (3 instead of a 2 in most cases can easily escape a camera) and runs a lot worse than it looks like it might run.
If say you figured out the money it would cost you to remove and buff stainless, replace seals in windows and doors, re-bush the front end, and possibly deal with an engine or transmission issue, you could easily have bid $5,000 over (or worse---gulp).
That's why it's so important to assess "market value" from as many sources, AND from as many sales, as you can find over a reasonable length of time.
I'm a sucker for the turquoise interior...thanks for posting!
Of course I am a Studebaker fan, but I admit that they picked many colors I did not care for. Varsity Maroon and that Coral-Flamingo-Salmon type pink color come to mind. I like keeping my car stock, but I changed my Commander to a slightly greener-green and a whiter-white. It is hard to make a 1953 Starliner hardtop look bad, but it can be done if you stick with original Studebaker colors. (My apologies to the owner of that fine car, but I think that the white wall tires went too far too.)
That said, the colors chosen after Sherwood Egbert became President were much better and I also like the Avanti blue shown below also favored by Uplander Guy.
The magazine was publiched in July 1962 which might explain the large rear view mirror shown in the photo. I believe that Studebaker was the first to glue it directly to the windshield, but it never looked like that or got that big. They made it in several different sizes and moved it to different locations around the windshield. You can almost tell the month an Avanti was built by the location and size of the rear-view mirror.
I think when bidding on an Ebay car a person should assume the worst and bid accordingly. That pristine, detailed engine with all of the proper decals may be overdue for a rebore and total overhaul.
I also look at the sellers feedback and read the feedback comments not that that's going to be 100% accurate.
The Salmon color I was speaking of is on a Lark in the slide show at the bottom of this page. You can download two Studebaker radio commercials there too, just above the slide show. http://stude.net/builders.html
Many Larks were painted that color but you do not see it much at car shows now.
I noticed the location of Avanti rear view mirriors because when I got new heavy duty rear springs on mine I could not see out the rear window until the springs settled. I complained to a friend who had an earlier Avanti but his mirrior was smaller and lower than mine. Once I started paying attention to that detail, it seemed that the higher the mirrior was located and the larger it was, the later the production date of the car.
Here's a very interesting road test from Popular Mechanics in 1963 comparing the Corvette, Riviera and Avanti, driven by the great John Fitch, with comments by him on mostly handling, acceleration, etc.
No surprises, but I liked that the comments came from a real "car guy" who didn't pull punches.
My reaction was "fair enough". Each car got its due and its lumps.
I've seen that mag before. It is interesting. In all honesty, the Corvette's chassis was new so I would expect it to drive the best to a professional driver. The '62 Corvette (which is my favorite 'Vette of all) would probably compare more closely to the Avanti--or vice-versa. I know you don't like '62's!
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Yeah that's a fair statement about '62 vs '63 Corvette although I think even the '62 Corvette would still have better overall road manners than the Avanti, and certainly better than the Riv or the T-Bird.
You musta confused me with someone else. I don't mind the '62 Corvette at all---I'd love to have one, provided you let me change a few things...heh...heh...
the way I'd rate 'em (Corvette vs. Riv vs. T-Bird vs. Avanti) for '63 is:
best handling -- Corvette best luxury -- Riviera best value -- Corvette most pleasant (comfy) to drive -- Riviera most fun to drive -- Corvette best reliability --Corvette and/or non-supercharged Avanti *best build quality --Riviera
*not saying much for any '63 American car, but...relatively speaking I mean...
Very interesting article, but as it accurately states, the Corvette is "actually a different category of vehicle." Two passenger v. four passenger car is not a fair comparision. The Corvette was in a class all its own at that time. I never called the Avanti a "Corvette killer."
Yes, the Avanti steering is slow for a sports-type car, but it is very true and does not need much attention at high speed. It is pleasant to drive at high speeds on a long trip, (unless it is very hot outside). I have driven two Mustangs and two 1960s-era Chevies that needed constant correction to go in a straight line and I will take king pins over ball joints any day.
This week I got the news that my Chevy with only 62,000 miles needs a new rack and pinion that will cost me $650 to fix. I had to replace the "Quad 4" motor last year. It eats brakes for breakfast.
My Avanti was very tight and had a bit of a hard ride, but I did not mind that. The complaints about the quality may have been limited to that vehicle. I have heard more complaints about the quality of the Avanti II than the original Studebaker Avanti (except for the very early ones that were built before they got the body sorted out).
My Avanti was very tight and had a bit of a hard ride, but I did not mind that. The complaints about the quality may have been limited to that vehicle. I have heard more complaints about the quality of the Avanti II than the original Studebaker Avanti (except for the very early ones that were built before they got the body sorted out).
For a magazine article in a Jan. '63 issue, they certainly tested a very early Avanti. They were just trickling out in '62 and would certainly have been one of the MFG-built bodies, which were sloppy by all accounts.
My choice would be Avanti first (I like things that are different!), probably Riviera next, Corvette, then T-Bird last. I think Ford went to great lengths to make the '63 T-Bird look like a bird with its feathers tucked in at the side.
It's jljac that doesn't like '62 'Vettes if I remember correctly.
Mine would have to have a hardtop, and would be either Honduras Maroon or Fawn Beige. It could be a 250 hp 327 with Powerglide (to keep the price down a bit) and I'd be perfectly happy with that!
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I've driven a couple of Avantis and I didn't think they were particularly well put together, but they aren't too bad vis a vis most 60s "quality" in the industry at that time. It's hard to get a glass car to feel really solid anyway.
The handling critique is fair enough---the steering is vague and very imprecise---but again, by the standards of the 60s, no worse than most.
Yes, Avantis do get WARM, that's true, and some of them leak oil a lot. Not sure why that is. You'd think they were British.
Avantis were GT cars---go fast in a straight line and be comfortable. What they lacked was the feeling of luxury one likes in a GT car.
I just looked at that article again and noticed that the Avanti was the only car with manual steering. The other three cars had power steering. No wonder the race car driver was complaining about the steering on the Avanti. Manual steering was slow even by Studebaker standards to keep from breaking that small, thin steering wheel.
Another interesting note; the weights of the cars. . .Corvette 3,150 pounds (heavy for a two passenger vehicle) , Avanti 3,365 pounds (supercharger included) , T-Bird 4,370 pounds, Riviera 4,450 pounds. This places the Avanti at a disadvantage on a rough road because of the unsprung weight. A heavy car will ride better on a rough road because the weight of the vehicle is so much greater than the weight of the unsprung components (rear axel, wheels, brakes and tires).
Bill Haworth, Studebaker's live New York P.R.O., arranged for me to pick up a brand-new Avanti, and run it down to Sebring, Florida, a distance of over 1,300 miles. This was finished in gun-metal and was a normal production machine with the Paxton-supercharged, 4,720 c.c. V8 engine, four-speed, all-synchromesh gearbox and limited-spin (or twin-traction) differential. On the trip down, I was accompanied by Dunlop's Dick Jeffrey, who was fascinated by the performance of this splendid car and said that he had never completed such a long trip before, with such complete absence of fatigue.
The Avanti is ideal for dealing with American traffic conditions. On speedlimited main roads, the accent is on sheer acceleration, rather than high maximum speed. The Studebaker has both, of course, but it is its ability to whistle up to over 100 m.p.h. from a gentle cruising gait that makes it the perfect turnpike cruiser. With the immense acceleration possible, one just overwhelms groups of automobiles, then settles down to the required rate of knots. . . .
Anyway, on our trip we saw plenty of the Eastern States, and had every opportunity of proving the Avanti's mettle. I had heard that the gas consumption might be pretty staggering, but a careful check showed that during our journey the car averaged 17 miles per U.S. gallon. In 1,300 miles, only 11 pints of oil were added to the sump. Where we stopped, the Avanti attracted a great deal of attention. In fact, several people believed that it was an Italian machine, and were more than gratified to learn that it had been built in America.
It is perfectly orthodox in its chassis construction, the frame consisting of deep-section channel steel side members with cross-bracing. The independent front suspension is by large helical springs, unequally-spaced wishbones, controlled by telescopic dampers, and an anti-roll bar. Long, semi-elliptic springs are used at the rear, in conjunction with anti-roll and torque bars. The suspension is soft by European standards, but there is no tendency to roll unduly. Tyre squeal was evident, but Jeffrey thought that a set of RS Dunlops would soon cure that. Candidly, I did not know that powered-steering was fitted, till I was told. The Avanti has a very live feeling to the steering, although a wheel tremor at speed suggested unbalanced front wheels. Behaviour is, on the whole, admirable, with just a suggestion of understeerr."
Interior quietness should also be stressed. There was no sign of a rattle, wind noise was only apparent when the quarter-lights were opened, and it was possible to listen to the twin-speaker radio at the highest cruising speeds.
As one who was stationed in Ft. Dix New Jersey and who drove my Avanti home to Chicago on a regular basis (sometimes for the weekend) , the article sums up how I felt about it. . .and the are lots of great pictures too.
100 mph in any 60s American car is a white-knuckle affair at best. My GT Hawk was a nice riding car in a straight line, but an absolute pig in the corners.
The fellow's right though---better tires would have helped a lot. As would thicker sway bars and bushings, and lowering the car a few inches.
As for understeer, it's more than a "suggestion" however. An Avanti pushes very hard in the turns---again, as do most American cars of the era with 1/4 ton motors in the front end.
Here are some more interesting facts about the wheel base of 1963 cars: Chevy Corvette 98.0" Stude Avanti 109.0", Ford T-Bird 113.0" Buick Riviera 117.0" GT Hawk 120.5" The Hawk is more than two feet longer than the Corvette, nearly a foot longer than the Avanti and 3.5" longer than the Buick.
No wonder it will not handle as well as cars built ten years after the 1953 Starliner hardtop was introduced. The fact that the GT Hawk was compared to cars like the 1963 T-Bird and Riviera is a tribute to the original design.
I have a reprint of a magazine test article from a defunct magazine, of an R2 '64 Hawk (my favorite Studebaker of all). In it, the writer states that the body is the oldest by far still used by an American manufacturer, "but...such is the intelligence of the original design as it still is handsome ten years later". I couldn't agree more. I doubt any of the other manufacturers could have gotten away with a facelift of their '53 bodies as a '64 model year product.
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In that last photo, which was in the brochure, I always wondered if that was President Sherwood H. Egbert's wife and daughter in the photo. It was taken at the Proving Ground, where they lived, and Time magazine said Egbert's wife was "...a Minnesota blonde who looks like Kim Novak". He also had small children at the time.
And this car could be had with a blower, 4-speed, disc brakes, traction bars and radius rods, full gauges including a clock or tach, bucket seats, and a folding cloth sunroof.
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Well, more accurately, it's a tribute to a cash-starved Studebaker putting a lovely new shell over an old design using great ingenuity. A GT Hawk still handles like a 1953 Studebaker, but so does a '63 T-Bird and Riviera. So they aren't so different after all. American technology was very stagnant in the 1960s when it came to suspension and handling. The automakers just kept building what they thought people wanted---soft and poofy. What is a '65 Mustang after all, but a 1950s car under a sporty new body?
I remember how poorly Americans took to the ride and handling of Mercedes and BMW when they first started pushing significantly into the American market. Not until the Europeans packed luxury into their spartan interiors did American drivers respond more positively. Even then, Lexus saw a market for a softer chassis.
I have to wonder if the MB partnership influenced that car. I see kind of a fintail overtone in it - you could get cloth interiors in those too, along with sunroofs, fuel injection, 4 speed was standard, disc brakes, etc. and it too was space efficient, not huge outside but useful inside.
I, too, see the similarities with the Fintail. Mostly not coincidental since Stude dealers were selling M-B at that time. Supposedly not every Stude dealer got Benz, but even my small hometown dealer (basically a garage) sold them. I have a color photo of them from '58 (recession year and especially bad year for Studebaker), with a neon tri-star sign in their window.
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I was compelled to look in my Sept. 1988 "Turning Wheels" Studebaker Drivers' Club magazine, which is primarily about "Super Studebakers--1963". Only 26 '63 Cruisers were built with the R2 engine (blower); 104 with the R1 (Avanti) engine. Between R1 and R2's, only 21 had 4-speed.
When I did production order research at the Studebaker National Museum archives some time back, only 14 '63 Studebakers were built with the combination of Avanti power and Skytop sunroof. Mine was the first serial number, but two of the 14 were Cruisers--one black, one white--both were R1's, and both had the optional Broadcloth upholstery shown above. I'd love to have one of those cars.
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Yeah, there must have been some influence, it makes too much sense. Could have been an interesting partnership.
I can't imagine dealers in podunk selling MB anyway, and did dealers staff any special technicians for the foreign cars? I can't imagine a guy used to seeing bullet nosed cars and Larks having lots of fun with a weird fuel injected car.
It's jljac that doesn't like '62 'Vettes if I remember correctly.
I like Corvettes, but was firing back because of rude things were being said about the style of the Avanti and that it was a sales failure. I picked on the 1962 Vette because the rear end style arrived one year before the rest of the Sting Ray, although the 1962 did have a trunk lid (maybe that was optional in 1963).
The things said about the Avanti were very similar to the things said about the early Corvettes. . i.e., it is a straight line driver only. Corvette sales got off to much slower start than the Avanti as stated here: http://www.vettefacts.com/C1/C1Main.aspx
Only 315 1953 Corvettes were built and all had the same options. The first production car ever made with a fiberglass body. Each one was basically hand built. Because of the passenger car heritage of most of the parts handling and performance left something to be desired. The styling was well received but the 6-cylinder Blue Flame Special engine only produced 150 horsepower and the two-speed automatic transmission wasn't what sports car enthusiasts were looking for.
301 1953 Corvettes were built in Flint, Michigan at a temporary facility in the rear of Chevrolet's customer delivery garage on Van Slyke Ave. The first 50 cars were delivered to hand-picked celebrities, athletes and corporate executives. When the other 250 cars became available, Chevy found there weren't 250 more A-List buyers who wanted to pay a high price for such a crude car. Water leaks from the windshield and top and the performance didn't rate for such an expensive car.
The 1954 Chevrolet Corvette saw production moved to a renovated plant in St. Louis, MO. Production was up to 3,640 cars this year but unfortunately a large amount of these remained unsold at the end of the year. The lack of an engine with decent horsepower, the marginal handling and the competition from American as well as European sports cars took its toll. ====================================================
By 1963 the Corvette was much faster (I think better looking), but it was still a very expensive and inefficient way of transporting two people about. Consider that the 1963 GT Hawk weighed 3,120 pounds (30 pounds less than the Corvette) on a wheelbase that was 22.5 inches longer than the Vette (98.0"vs. 120.5"). Yet Chevrolet got the kudos for great engineering.
The biggest obstacle to the Avanti’s success was the Studebaker name on it because talk of Studebaker’s imminent demise had been going on for nearly ten years before the Avanti was introduced. GM could afford to sell Corvettes at a loss year after year while Studebaker could not afford such a car.
Chevrolet also had lots of money for TV advertising. . .Dinah Shore (“See the USA in Your Chevrolet”). . . top rated show Bonanza and Route 66 ( which was practically a Corvette a TV commercial.)
To see an Avanti on TV, you had to watch Mr. Ed, which was not the type of TV show favored by the rich and cool types of people who could afford to buy an Avanti.
I'm friends with our hometown Stude dealer (actually the son, who's 82). He said they did sell some M-B's and I have a color photo of his Dad with his prized 180 sedan--black with red interior. The son told me he went to the docks at NYC to bring back a convertible (don't know the year or model) with a column-mounted 4-speed...automatic?? I don't recall. He said it was trouble though!
I only remember a 190 convertible in our town, which was driven by the near-elderly but very "with it" high school nurse. It was bought at the dealer in our town.
When I was at the Studebaker Museum archives a couple years ago, which had on record all the cars sold by specific dealer from Sept. '63-April '66, name of the buyer, his occupation, and what he traded in, frankly I was surprised that several cars in that time period had a Benz traded in on a new Stude, at our local dealer.
Here's a link to that photo I mentioned earlier--go to Carl E. Filer Co., and third one down:
Small two-car showroom, but Service Dept. in back was wider than the showroom (building was L-shaped) and had six or seven individual service bays in back, each with its own lift and overhead door. One was tall, for big trucks.
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Well the early Corvettes *were* terrible cars. We are allowed to admit that not all cars are perfect---there are no blasphemy laws in effect here. :P
Corvette came into its own in '56, finally starting to "get it right" and the rest is history, as they say.
I think we also mentioned that aside from personal preferences in styling concerning the Avanti (I think the quote was "you either loved it or hated it") that Studebaker was being assaulted in price wars by the Big Three, who were pleased to see it dying (especially the luxury brand of Packard) and did whatever they could to hasten S-Ps demise.
And yes you are absolutely correct...by 1964, S-P had a death cloud around it and people were very well aware of its financial difficulties. No automakeron eareth can survive very long with that kind of public perception in place.
I have to imagine the MBs confounded some of the mechanics, especially the old school guys. The plumbing for the FI on my fintail is bizarre even today.
Cool link, I see it lists dealers in my state, the one in my town is on the same street as I am, when I jog I go past it every time. I had no idea it was a car dealership.
Cool link, I see it lists dealers in my state, the one in my town is on the same street as I am, when I jog I go past it every time. I had no idea it was a car dealership
Excellent! The fellow with the site is from WA and asked online if anyone had any pictures of the inside of a Stude dealer, for reference. I put it off forever and just photocopied some color photos I had made from slides loaned me by the dealer. Those are what he has on the site.
The dealer sent their head mechanic (later Service Manager) to South Bend for Mercedes school. The fellow is still with us in Greenville. The dealer told me he was an excellent mechanic and I have looked on fiche at the local library there, old ads of theirs in the local paper from the '60's and they would usually run a small ad in addition to their normal larger ones, that would just say, "Foreign Car Experts" and list their name and number.
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I always liked the photo of the Lark Cruiser too, with the additional bonus of the Studebaker Junior Wagon included in the image. It was a toy wagon to be pulled by a dog or goat.
One can be seen in the 1956 movie Giant with Rock Hudson, Liz Taylor and James Dean. While not built by Studebaker, it was built just West of the Studebaker factory on Sample Street with the support of Studebaker sold at its dealerships and then became so popular that it was sold through the Sears catalog. http://www.monon.monon.org/sobend/sbtoy.html
Like the Avanti, the Studebaker Junior Wagon refused to die after the factory closed. You can still buy kits or order them from an Amish guy who still builds replicas. Studebaker is so rich with American history and different forms of transporation, there is something for everyone.
Also interesting that the old time MB dealer in Seattle is in a building which used to house the Studebaker dealer. I knew they had been there over 50 years, but didn't know Stude was there before.
Studebaker made wagons for the Union Army during the Civil War. The company goes back to 1852.
Mercedes always had excellent technical schools. I'm sure if a Studebaker mechanic went there, he got a good education. Probably the biggest challenges would have been the precision of the MB cars (some might say way more precise than they needed to be). If the point gap says .012 and the valves needed to be at .006, well you had better.
I doubt they messed with the fuel injection--that was no doubt rebuilt by specialists. Even in modern times, MB dealers didn't take that apart.
My hometown in California once had 17 car dealers according to the "old timers". I'm old enough to remember at least ten of them.
The last to leave was the Ford store in 1977.
There is a body shop that once housed a Studebaker- Packard store. For years you could barely read the old Studebaker sign that was painted on the bricks in their alley.
The downtown area slowly died and the car dealers closed one by one.
When I'm back in town I like to drive down the main drag and look at the building which still stand but have housed in most cases, a variety of tenents.
Correct. I have the recording of the Studebaker Glee Club and Male Chorus singing the Studebaker song, "Rolling Alone for 100 Years" to celebrate Studebaker's the 100th anniversary in 1952 at the final page of my web site. My Grandfather was at the Indiana Club the night they sang that song for the movie Family of Craftsmen. Near as I can tell the lyrics are:
Rolling along for 100 years, sing of the Studebaker, Buggies and wagons and automobiles, sing of the Studebaker Born in the year 1852, they had some dreams and they all came true, Smart as a whip, for any old trip, sing of the Studebaker.
Over America hills and plains, we'll form a mighty nation, Thundering roads (?) and wagon trains, we build (?) transportation, Rolling along for 100 years, pride of the grand old maker, Rolling along for 100 years, sing of the Studebaker.
Roll Studebaker................................Roll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you named this site "Postwar Studebaker's" you did not specify which war, so I assumed that you meant the Civil War. For ease of reference, here is the image Uplander Guy posted. I always liked that one. (Look at the wheelbase on that baby.) I believe that wagon is at the Studebaker National Museum now.
That photo is definitely taken at the Proving Ground...those brick pillars are still there. It's about 15 miles west of South Bend on U.S. 2. Bosch owns it now.
In 2002 I drove my Daytona around the Proving Ground's 3 1/2 mile oval there at the end of the Studebaker Drivers' Club International Meet. There was a steady parade of Studes from downtown out there. It's amazing, and generous, to me that Bosch allowed this to happen. At the Crossroads Zone meet in South Bend just last weekend, Bosch again allowed Studes on the track on Sunday. Sadly, I couldn't make it.
Re.: the Carl E. Filer Co. photos link...I'm in the blue jacket in one of the 2004 photos, standing next to the "Authorized Studebaker Parts and Accessories" door. I paid the owner of the building to my left, $50 for the door and it's a table in my office now.
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It would be interesting if we had a Studebaker or Renault dealership on Main St today. I jogged by that building today and looked it over, never noticed it has garage doors on one side. Makes sense now.
My mother lives in a town with a sprawling abandoned Chrysler dealer - they consolidated with the Ford dealer as the town is monopolized in new car dealers for everything but Honda. It's pretty sad to see, pretty much a square block going to hell.
Yes exactly. I never knew that was the roots of the older dealership. Makes sense now that I think of it, MB started picking up steam just as Stude was fading away.
Yes, the image was taken at the Proving Grounds. Yyu can see the brick post above the dog's head. Here are two images of the Studebaker Proving Grounds.
As it looks today. The Studebaker sign lives on, although the City of South Bend refuses to trim the trees.
There's an interesting article in the July 2011 issue of Hemming's Classic Cars about this young engineer, fresh out of school in 1962, looking for a job. What caught my eye is his comments about applying for a job at Studebaker in '62---they showed him the new Avanti, but they would not offer him a draft-deferred job (critical industries classification) or any particular training. But when the young man inquired at Chrysler, they took him on, gave him the draft deferrment and sent him to Chrysler U. for 2 years training. He ended up designing power steering and suspension improvements for them. They assigned two engineers just to play with power steering pumps!
So the article tends to show how Studebaker couldn't afford to invest in its own future in 1962. Of course, they soon packed up after that and headed north.
I often wondered how things would have turned out for Studebaker if they had retained the entire Packard engineering staff--which was excellent and enjoyed industry-wide respect in the 1950s.
That's making a big assumption that they would have moved to South Bend.
As we've discussed, Packard had so many quality issues on their hands by 1956, including assembly in a plant where employee's coats were hung overhead, it was so tight for space, I'm not certain how great their reputation would have been by that time. IMO the torsion-level was a great innovation, although my dealer friend said they had to rebuild every one they sold.
James J. Nance went on to other things at Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln, then in 1960 moved to Cleveland to run a bank. (I always thought Edsel was quite a bit like the last Packards, in that there was a 'junior' and a 'senior' line.)
Looking at '56 Golden Hawk production records at the Studebaker Museum, I came across one that said "Mrs. Nance" at the bottom. I thought that was interesting.
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Oh I think Packard engineering was excellent but by 1955 they were suffering the same fate as Studebaker---cash-starved.
Packard innovations in the 50s are still with us---electronically shifted transmissions, active suspension, lock-up torque converter. No other American car had these things. These are ideas that only need more $$$ to realize their full potential I think.
Yes, Nance went on to Edsel to add more feathers to his cap :P
I often wondered how things would have turned out for Studebaker if they had retained the entire Packard engineering staff--which was excellent and enjoyed industry-wide respect in the 1950s.
This seems like more of always trying to give credit to anyone and everyone but Studebaker. Studebaker was virtually taken over by Packard in 1954-1955 and the new company DID have the services of Packard engineers including John DeLorean who reviewed a design from Porsche and did not like it. http://studebaker-info.org/studeporsche/stude-porsche08.html .
By 1962, Studebaker was in a down-sizing mode and could not afford to put the designs of its own engineering staff into production, including independent rear suspension for the Avanti and a modern ovh six-cylinder engine.
Packard was finanacially heathtier than Studebaker before the merger because they made a lot of money by building British Merlin engines in World War II, so they should have been the leader in ohv-8 engine technology, but they did not build their own until 1955 and put it in a body that they first produced for the 1951 model year.
One would think that since they took so long to introduce their their ohv-V-8 engine, it would have been comparable to the Chevrolet and Cadillac, but it was much heavier than the Studebaker engine. I asked my mechanic friend who raced an R-2 Lark why Packard engines were never raced and he said that the Packard motors did not put out much power for their weight & displacement and that they did not breathe well because the exhaust ports and manifolds were designed by the Boston Strangler. They got their power based upon sheer size.
If Packard engineers were so much better than South Bend talent, Studebaker-Packard would have kept the Packard engineers. If the Packard V-8 first released in 1955 was so superior to the Studebaker V-8, they would have kept it, and the same goes for the Ultra-matic transmission.
If Packard suspension was so great, other car makers would have adopted something similar. If Packards were selling better than Studebakers, they would have kept building Packards instead of Studebakers. If Packard engineers had the expertise to build new bodies, why did they only have only one post-war body in 1951 which they were still trying to sell in 1956?
What did post-war Packard engineering produce that made everyone else in the auto industry take notice and follow its lead?
We who like Studebakers are lucky that the Proving Ground outside South Bend remains largely unchanged. When you drive in the gates at Bosch, even several of the old garage buildings have the "S" in the capstone. Where visible only from the U.S. Route 2, the "S" capstones are covered over. Here's a brief video of driving by the Proving Ground in '07, where the brick pillars in the one photo of the '63 Cruiser can be seen, as can be seen the "Mansion", where the Egbert family lived from 1961-1963.
Packard's Proving Grounds is now largely a housing development. From overhead you can still see where the track was, sadly.
Stude buffs are also lucky that the Administration Building is largely unchanged. Here are pics taken during a tour given in summer of '07--remarkably unchanged inside:
I would give 'late Packard' credit for load-leveling suspension and lock-up torque converter. Studebaker's own "Automatic Drive" had that feature one year after Packard, but Studebaker ended up feeling that it was cheaper to subsequently buy Borg-Warner's automatic transmission without that feature. Ford actually tried to purchase Studebaker's "Automatic Drive" for its cars in the early '50's. Studebaker, stupidly, did not sell!
I have to admit that I admire a Scottish Heather and white '56 Packard Four-Hundred. I actually like it better than the tri-tone Caribbeans, although the Caribbeans certainly sell for more cash.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
The 1955 series were the long-awaited “modern” Packards. Brilliantly restyled by Dick Teague and his design crew using Packard’s 1951 body shell and a pin-money budget, the cars were, as noted in the RM catalog description, modern, fresh and attractive. They managed to look thoroughly up-to-date yet unmistakably Packard. Full credit to Packard, too, for their efforts in making the car utterly forward-looking mechanically as well. But in their rush to present an “all new” car too little development went into these innovations. The first year V8 engines developed noisy hydraulic lifters and too soon these proud automobiles could be heard coming down the street sounding like a concert of castanets. The Dual Range Ultramatic was a great idea on paper but it became known for blowing seals and dumping fluid on highways, byways and driveways. The third leg of the innovation stool also was shaky in its execution—the cars could be seen driving along in a nose-down attitude like chrome-plated Bloodhounds or tail-down like a James Dean Mercury due to lousy electrical connections in the overly complex suspension system. This, needless to say, is not the way Mrs. Plushbottom expected her expensive new Packard to behave and the 1955 cars lost the company an immeasurable amount of good will among long-time marque loyalists. Inevitably, this was reflected in Packard’s dismal 1956 sales and brought Packard to the brink of extinction
I just added the list price of the Packard after initial posting. $5,932 f.o.b. Detroit. Refer to the Avanti-Corvette discussion for the reasonableness of that price.
Comments
Let's look at eBay archive pricing:
For 63-64 Studebaker Hawk, 106 past auctions, we have:
Excellent:$22,426
Good:$13,728
Fair:$9,589
That merges very nicely with current book values and current dealer pricing.
If you averaged out ALL the Rivieras, which would show 5 to 10 times the number of auctions, and show all the rats and bad customs, I would think the prices would be lower than the Hawk.
However, the point was, given a completely equal show-down between a nice Riv and a nice Hawk, the Riv should sell for more, and sell easier.
You reach a point with scarce cars where all you see for sale are the two extremes---restored or barn finds, and nothing in the middle.
I hate it when people do nothing but make excuses for the advertised cars.
" The power antenna is in the trunk"
" The power windows don't work but it's probably a loose wire"
" The A/C just needs a charge"
" It could use a wheel alignment"
etc.... If these fixes are so minor and inexpensive to fix then FIX them instead of making excuses!
I never trust the bidding on EBay. I still believe, in relation to things other than cars, there are fake bids set up by the seller. I watched a lot of strange things happen and tried to follow the bidding, and that didn't make sense. So I just set up my own bidding account and let the computer do it; if others are trying to run up the bidding, they can have it at the over-price.
I notice a lot of items where I thought the bidding was over nominal get relisted quickly for another run at selling. Somehow that high bidder never seems to take delivery of the item.
I assume this is true in the automotive bidding as well.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
One problem with making any judgments on eBay sales is that you can't really see the merchandise.
When we see a sale for "$25,000" we really can't say whether it was a steal or an overpay or market correct, because we haven't (and in most cases, the bidder hasn't) had a close look at the car.
for instance, even WITH 50 photos with a good camera, you simply cannot see things like worn weatherstripping, scratched stainless trim, checking paint, fish eyes, orange peel, file marks, small dings, condition of suspension bushings, how it actually runs, shifts and brakes....ETC.
So you can literally have a car on eBay that looks great and is, in fact, possibly a grade LOWER than it looks (3 instead of a 2 in most cases can easily escape a camera) and runs a lot worse than it looks like it might run.
If say you figured out the money it would cost you to remove and buff stainless, replace seals in windows and doors, re-bush the front end, and possibly deal with an engine or transmission issue, you could easily have bid $5,000 over (or worse---gulp).
That's why it's so important to assess "market value" from as many sources, AND from as many sales, as you can find over a reasonable length of time.
Of course I am a Studebaker fan, but I admit that they picked many colors I did not care for. Varsity Maroon and that Coral-Flamingo-Salmon type pink color come to mind. I like keeping my car stock, but I changed my Commander to a slightly greener-green and a whiter-white. It is hard to make a 1953 Starliner hardtop look bad, but it can be done if you stick with original Studebaker colors. (My apologies to the owner of that fine car, but I think that the white wall tires went too far too.)
That said, the colors chosen after Sherwood Egbert became President were much better and I also like the Avanti blue shown below also favored by Uplander Guy.
The magazine was publiched in July 1962 which might explain the large rear view mirror shown in the photo. I believe that Studebaker was the first to glue it directly to the windshield, but it never looked like that or got that big. They made it in several different sizes and moved it to different locations around the windshield. You can almost tell the month an Avanti was built by the location and size of the rear-view mirror.
Man, am I glad Studebaker opted out of the wide whites on the Avanti! Those pre-production cars look icky with wide whites!
Turquoise is my favorite Avanti color, followed by black.
I also look at the sellers feedback and read the feedback comments not that that's going to be 100% accurate.
Sorry, but the off-white on the bottom and red on the top seems wrong to me. I like this one from the Danbury Mint. Red bottom, white top makes a big difference. https://www.danburymint.com/diecast/prod/8E5/1953-Studebaker-Commander-Starliner- _9511-0011.aspx
The Salmon color I was speaking of is on a Lark in the slide show at the bottom of this page. You can download two Studebaker radio commercials there too, just above the slide show. http://stude.net/builders.html
Many Larks were painted that color but you do not see it much at car shows now.
I noticed the location of Avanti rear view mirriors because when I got new heavy duty rear springs on mine I could not see out the rear window until the springs settled. I complained to a friend who had an earlier Avanti but his mirrior was smaller and lower than mine. Once I started paying attention to that detail, it seemed that the higher the mirrior was located and the larger it was, the later the production date of the car.
No surprises, but I liked that the comments came from a real "car guy" who didn't pull punches.
My reaction was "fair enough". Each car got its due and its lumps.
http://www.theavanti.com/63popular_mechanics.html
Beautiful
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You musta confused me with someone else. I don't mind the '62 Corvette at all---I'd love to have one, provided you let me change a few things...heh...heh...
the way I'd rate 'em (Corvette vs. Riv vs. T-Bird vs. Avanti) for '63 is:
best handling -- Corvette
best luxury -- Riviera
best value -- Corvette
most pleasant (comfy) to drive -- Riviera
most fun to drive -- Corvette
best reliability --Corvette and/or non-supercharged Avanti
*best build quality --Riviera
*not saying much for any '63 American car, but...relatively speaking I mean...
Yes, the Avanti steering is slow for a sports-type car, but it is very true and does not need much attention at high speed. It is pleasant to drive at high speeds on a long trip, (unless it is very hot outside). I have driven two Mustangs and two 1960s-era Chevies that needed constant correction to go in a straight line and I will take king pins over ball joints any day.
This week I got the news that my Chevy with only 62,000 miles needs a new rack and pinion that will cost me $650 to fix. I had to replace the "Quad 4" motor last year. It eats brakes for breakfast.
My Avanti was very tight and had a bit of a hard ride, but I did not mind that. The complaints about the quality may have been limited to that vehicle. I have heard more complaints about the quality of the Avanti II than the original Studebaker Avanti (except for the very early ones that were built before they got the body sorted out).
For a magazine article in a Jan. '63 issue, they certainly tested a very early Avanti. They were just trickling out in '62 and would certainly have been one of the MFG-built bodies, which were sloppy by all accounts.
My choice would be Avanti first (I like things that are different!), probably Riviera next, Corvette, then T-Bird last. I think Ford went to great lengths to make the '63 T-Bird look like a bird with its feathers tucked in at the side.
It's jljac that doesn't like '62 'Vettes if I remember correctly.
Mine would have to have a hardtop, and would be either Honduras Maroon or Fawn Beige. It could be a 250 hp 327 with Powerglide (to keep the price down a bit) and I'd be perfectly happy with that!
The handling critique is fair enough---the steering is vague and very imprecise---but again, by the standards of the 60s, no worse than most.
Yes, Avantis do get WARM, that's true, and some of them leak oil a lot. Not sure why that is. You'd think they were British.
Avantis were GT cars---go fast in a straight line and be comfortable. What they lacked was the feeling of luxury one likes in a GT car.
Another interesting note; the weights of the cars. . .Corvette 3,150 pounds (heavy for a two passenger vehicle) , Avanti 3,365 pounds (supercharger included) , T-Bird 4,370 pounds, Riviera 4,450 pounds. This places the Avanti at a disadvantage on a rough road because of the unsprung weight. A heavy car will ride better on a rough road because the weight of the vehicle is so much greater than the weight of the unsprung components (rear axel, wheels, brakes and tires).
Here is a better review of driving a new Avanti in 1963
http://www.sportscars.tv/Newfiles/avanti.html
Bill Haworth, Studebaker's live New York P.R.O., arranged for me to pick up a brand-new Avanti, and run it down to Sebring, Florida, a distance of over 1,300 miles. This was finished in gun-metal and was a normal production machine with the Paxton-supercharged, 4,720 c.c. V8 engine, four-speed, all-synchromesh gearbox and limited-spin (or twin-traction) differential. On the trip down, I was accompanied by Dunlop's Dick Jeffrey, who was fascinated by the performance of this splendid car and said that he had never completed such a long trip before, with such complete absence of fatigue.
The Avanti is ideal for dealing with American traffic conditions. On speedlimited main roads, the accent is on sheer acceleration, rather than high maximum speed. The Studebaker has both, of course, but it is its ability to whistle up to over 100 m.p.h. from a gentle cruising gait that makes it the perfect turnpike cruiser. With the immense acceleration possible, one just overwhelms groups of automobiles, then settles down to the required rate of knots. . . .
Anyway, on our trip we saw plenty of the Eastern States, and had every opportunity of proving the Avanti's mettle. I had heard that the gas consumption might be pretty staggering, but a careful check showed that during our journey the car averaged 17 miles per U.S. gallon. In 1,300 miles, only 11 pints of oil were added to the sump. Where we stopped, the Avanti attracted a great deal of attention. In fact, several people believed that it was an Italian machine, and were more than gratified to learn that it had been built in America.
It is perfectly orthodox in its chassis construction, the frame consisting of deep-section channel steel side members with cross-bracing. The independent front suspension is by large helical springs, unequally-spaced wishbones, controlled by telescopic dampers, and an anti-roll bar. Long, semi-elliptic springs are used at the rear, in conjunction with anti-roll and torque bars. The suspension is soft by European standards, but there is no tendency to roll unduly. Tyre squeal was evident, but Jeffrey thought that a set of RS Dunlops would soon cure that. Candidly, I did not know that powered-steering was fitted, till I was told. The Avanti has a very live feeling to the steering, although a wheel tremor at speed suggested unbalanced front wheels. Behaviour is, on the whole, admirable, with just a suggestion of understeerr."
Interior quietness should also be stressed. There was no sign of a rattle, wind noise was only apparent when the quarter-lights were opened, and it was possible to listen to the twin-speaker radio at the highest cruising speeds.
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As one who was stationed in Ft. Dix New Jersey and who drove my Avanti home to Chicago on a regular basis (sometimes for the weekend) , the article sums up how I felt about it. . .and the are lots of great pictures too.
The fellow's right though---better tires would have helped a lot. As would thicker sway bars and bushings, and lowering the car a few inches.
As for understeer, it's more than a "suggestion" however. An Avanti pushes very hard in the turns---again, as do most American cars of the era with 1/4 ton motors in the front end.
What I find pretty amazing is that's about the same they weigh today, with much more performance, power, handling, etc.
Different era - but 1980's BMW 3 is much lighter than one today...
No wonder it will not handle as well as cars built ten years after the 1953 Starliner hardtop was introduced. The fact that the GT Hawk was compared to cars like the 1963 T-Bird and Riviera is a tribute to the original design.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2164/2141942483_ede4da07c2.jpg
No other domestic car that size had an interior like that.
In fact, the '63 Cruiser is my favorite four-door Studebaker. Very European-looking. Tons of headroom and legroom too; practical size outside:
http://www.ritzsite.nl/63Stude/1963_Studebaker_Lark_Cruiser.JPG
In that last photo, which was in the brochure, I always wondered if that was President Sherwood H. Egbert's wife and daughter in the photo. It was taken at the Proving Ground, where they lived, and Time magazine said Egbert's wife was "...a Minnesota blonde who looks like Kim Novak". He also had small children at the time.
And this car could be had with a blower, 4-speed, disc brakes, traction bars and radius rods, full gauges including a clock or tach, bucket seats, and a folding cloth sunroof.
I remember how poorly Americans took to the ride and handling of Mercedes and BMW when they first started pushing significantly into the American market. Not until the Europeans packed luxury into their spartan interiors did American drivers respond more positively. Even then, Lexus saw a market for a softer chassis.
When I did production order research at the Studebaker National Museum archives some time back, only 14 '63 Studebakers were built with the combination of Avanti power and Skytop sunroof. Mine was the first serial number, but two of the 14 were Cruisers--one black, one white--both were R1's, and both had the optional Broadcloth upholstery shown above. I'd love to have one of those cars.
I can't imagine dealers in podunk selling MB anyway, and did dealers staff any special technicians for the foreign cars? I can't imagine a guy used to seeing bullet nosed cars and Larks having lots of fun with a weird fuel injected car.
I like Corvettes, but was firing back because of rude things were being said about the style of the Avanti and that it was a sales failure. I picked on the 1962 Vette because the rear end style arrived one year before the rest of the Sting Ray, although the 1962 did have a trunk lid (maybe that was optional in 1963).
The things said about the Avanti were very similar to the things said about the early Corvettes. . i.e., it is a straight line driver only. Corvette sales got off to much slower start than the Avanti as stated here:
http://www.vettefacts.com/C1/C1Main.aspx
Only 315 1953 Corvettes were built and all had the same options. The first production car ever made with a fiberglass body. Each one was basically hand built. Because of the passenger car heritage of most of the parts handling and performance left something to be desired. The styling
was well received but the 6-cylinder Blue Flame Special engine only produced 150 horsepower and the two-speed automatic transmission wasn't what sports car enthusiasts were looking for.
301 1953 Corvettes were built in Flint, Michigan at a temporary facility in the rear of Chevrolet's customer delivery garage on Van Slyke Ave. The first 50 cars were delivered to hand-picked celebrities, athletes and corporate executives. When the other 250 cars became available, Chevy found there weren't 250 more A-List buyers who wanted to pay a high price for such a crude car. Water leaks from the windshield and top and the performance didn't rate for such an expensive car.
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In 1954, Chevy could not sell all the Corvettes they built, although they did not build many: http://www.vettefacts.com/C1/1954.aspx
The 1954 Chevrolet Corvette saw production moved to a renovated plant in St. Louis, MO. Production was up to 3,640 cars this year but unfortunately a large amount of these remained unsold at the end of the year. The lack of an engine with decent horsepower, the marginal handling and the competition from American as well as European sports cars took its toll.
====================================================
By 1963 the Corvette was much faster (I think better looking), but it was still a very expensive and inefficient way of transporting two people about. Consider that the 1963 GT Hawk weighed 3,120 pounds (30 pounds less than the Corvette) on a wheelbase that was 22.5 inches longer than the Vette (98.0"vs. 120.5"). Yet Chevrolet got the kudos for great engineering.
The biggest obstacle to the Avanti’s success was the Studebaker name on it because talk of Studebaker’s imminent demise had been going on for nearly ten years before the Avanti was introduced. GM could afford to sell Corvettes at a loss year after year while Studebaker could not afford such a car.
Chevrolet also had lots of money for TV advertising. . .Dinah Shore (“See the USA in Your Chevrolet”). . . top rated show Bonanza and Route 66 ( which was practically a Corvette a TV commercial.)
To see an Avanti on TV, you had to watch Mr. Ed, which was not the type of TV show favored by the rich and cool types of people who could afford to buy an Avanti.
I only remember a 190 convertible in our town, which was driven by the near-elderly but very "with it" high school nurse. It was bought at the dealer in our town.
When I was at the Studebaker Museum archives a couple years ago, which had on record all the cars sold by specific dealer from Sept. '63-April '66, name of the buyer, his occupation, and what he traded in, frankly I was surprised that several cars in that time period had a Benz traded in on a new Stude, at our local dealer.
Here's a link to that photo I mentioned earlier--go to Carl E. Filer Co., and third one down:
http://studebakerdealers.webs.com/carlefilergreenville.htm
Small two-car showroom, but Service Dept. in back was wider than the showroom (building was L-shaped) and had six or seven individual service bays in back, each with its own lift and overhead door. One was tall, for big trucks.
Corvette came into its own in '56, finally starting to "get it right" and the rest is history, as they say.
I think we also mentioned that aside from personal preferences in styling concerning the Avanti (I think the quote was "you either loved it or hated it") that Studebaker was being assaulted in price wars by the Big Three, who were pleased to see it dying (especially the luxury brand of Packard) and did whatever they could to hasten S-Ps demise.
And yes you are absolutely correct...by 1964, S-P had a death cloud around it and people were very well aware of its financial difficulties. No automakeron eareth can survive very long with that kind of public perception in place.
Cool link, I see it lists dealers in my state, the one in my town is on the same street as I am, when I jog I go past it every time. I had no idea it was a car dealership.
Excellent! The fellow with the site is from WA and asked online if anyone had any pictures of the inside of a Stude dealer, for reference. I put it off forever and just photocopied some color photos I had made from slides loaned me by the dealer. Those are what he has on the site.
The dealer sent their head mechanic (later Service Manager) to South Bend for Mercedes school. The fellow is still with us in Greenville. The dealer told me he was an excellent mechanic and I have looked on fiche at the local library there, old ads of theirs in the local paper from the '60's and they would usually run a small ad in addition to their normal larger ones, that would just say, "Foreign Car Experts" and list their name and number.
One can be seen in the 1956 movie Giant with Rock Hudson, Liz Taylor and James Dean. While not built by Studebaker, it was built just West of the Studebaker factory on Sample Street with the support of Studebaker sold at its dealerships and then became so popular that it was sold through the Sears catalog. http://www.monon.monon.org/sobend/sbtoy.html
Like the Avanti, the Studebaker Junior Wagon refused to die after the factory closed. You can still buy kits or order them from an Amish guy who still builds replicas. Studebaker is so rich with American history and different forms of transporation, there is something for everyone.
Mercedes always had excellent technical schools. I'm sure if a Studebaker mechanic went there, he got a good education. Probably the biggest challenges would have been the precision of the MB cars (some might say way more precise than they needed to be). If the point gap says .012 and the valves needed to be at .006, well you had better.
I doubt they messed with the fuel injection--that was no doubt rebuilt by specialists. Even in modern times, MB dealers didn't take that apart.
The last to leave was the Ford store in 1977.
There is a body shop that once housed a Studebaker- Packard store. For years you could barely read the old Studebaker sign that was painted on the bricks in their alley.
The downtown area slowly died and the car dealers closed one by one.
When I'm back in town I like to drive down the main drag and look at the building which still stand but have housed in most cases, a variety of tenents.
Rolling along for 100 years, sing of the Studebaker,
Buggies and wagons and automobiles, sing of the Studebaker
Born in the year 1852, they had some dreams and they all came true,
Smart as a whip, for any old trip, sing of the Studebaker.
Over America hills and plains, we'll form a mighty nation,
Thundering roads (?) and wagon trains, we build (?) transportation,
Rolling along for 100 years, pride of the grand old maker,
Rolling along for 100 years, sing of the Studebaker.
Roll Studebaker................................Roll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you named this site "Postwar Studebaker's" you did not specify which war, so I assumed that you meant the Civil War. For ease of reference, here is the image Uplander Guy posted. I always liked that one. (Look at the wheelbase on that baby.) I believe that wagon is at the Studebaker National Museum now.
In 2002 I drove my Daytona around the Proving Ground's 3 1/2 mile oval there at the end of the Studebaker Drivers' Club International Meet. There was a steady parade of Studes from downtown out there. It's amazing, and generous, to me that Bosch allowed this to happen. At the Crossroads Zone meet in South Bend just last weekend, Bosch again allowed Studes on the track on Sunday. Sadly, I couldn't make it.
Re.: the Carl E. Filer Co. photos link...I'm in the blue jacket in one of the 2004 photos, standing next to the "Authorized Studebaker Parts and Accessories" door. I paid the owner of the building to my left, $50 for the door and it's a table in my office now.
IIRC Studebaker was the US distributor of MB vehicles in the later 50's and into the 60's.
My mother lives in a town with a sprawling abandoned Chrysler dealer - they consolidated with the Ford dealer as the town is monopolized in new car dealers for everything but Honda. It's pretty sad to see, pretty much a square block going to hell.
As it looks today. The Studebaker sign lives on, although the City of South Bend refuses to trim the trees.
So the article tends to show how Studebaker couldn't afford to invest in its own future in 1962. Of course, they soon packed up after that and headed north.
I often wondered how things would have turned out for Studebaker if they had retained the entire Packard engineering staff--which was excellent and enjoyed industry-wide respect in the 1950s.
As we've discussed, Packard had so many quality issues on their hands by 1956, including assembly in a plant where employee's coats were hung overhead, it was so tight for space, I'm not certain how great their reputation would have been by that time. IMO the torsion-level was a great innovation, although my dealer friend said they had to rebuild every one they sold.
James J. Nance went on to other things at Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln, then in 1960 moved to Cleveland to run a bank. (I always thought Edsel was quite a bit like the last Packards, in that there was a 'junior' and a 'senior' line.)
Looking at '56 Golden Hawk production records at the Studebaker Museum, I came across one that said "Mrs. Nance" at the bottom. I thought that was interesting.
Packard innovations in the 50s are still with us---electronically shifted transmissions, active suspension, lock-up torque converter. No other American car had these things. These are ideas that only need more $$$ to realize their full potential I think.
Yes, Nance went on to Edsel to add more feathers to his cap :P
This seems like more of always trying to give credit to anyone and everyone but Studebaker. Studebaker was virtually taken over by Packard in 1954-1955 and the new company DID have the services of Packard engineers including John DeLorean who reviewed a design from Porsche and did not like it. http://studebaker-info.org/studeporsche/stude-porsche08.html .
By 1962, Studebaker was in a down-sizing mode and could not afford to put the designs of its own engineering staff into production, including independent rear suspension for the Avanti and a modern ovh six-cylinder engine.
Packard was finanacially heathtier than Studebaker before the merger because they made a lot of money by building British Merlin engines in World War II, so they should have been the leader in ohv-8 engine technology, but they did not build their own until 1955 and put it in a body that they first produced for the 1951 model year.
One would think that since they took so long to introduce their their ohv-V-8 engine, it would have been comparable to the Chevrolet and Cadillac, but it was much heavier than the Studebaker engine. I asked my mechanic friend who raced an R-2 Lark why Packard engines were never raced and he said that the Packard motors did not put out much power for their weight & displacement and that they did not breathe well because the exhaust ports and manifolds were designed by the Boston Strangler. They got their power based upon sheer size.
If Packard engineers were so much better than South Bend talent, Studebaker-Packard would have kept the Packard engineers. If the Packard V-8 first released in 1955 was so superior to the Studebaker V-8, they would have kept it, and the same goes for the Ultra-matic transmission.
If Packard suspension was so great, other car makers would have adopted something similar. If Packards were selling better than Studebakers, they would have kept building Packards instead of Studebakers. If Packard engineers had the expertise to build new bodies, why did they only have only one post-war body in 1951 which they were still trying to sell in 1956?
What did post-war Packard engineering produce that made everyone else in the auto industry take notice and follow its lead?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URymIwgNODQ
Packard's Proving Grounds is now largely a housing development. From overhead you can still see where the track was, sadly.
Stude buffs are also lucky that the Administration Building is largely unchanged. Here are pics taken during a tour given in summer of '07--remarkably unchanged inside:
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I have to admit that I admire a Scottish Heather and white '56 Packard Four-Hundred. I actually like it better than the tri-tone Caribbeans, although the Caribbeans certainly sell for more cash.
The 1955 series were the long-awaited “modern” Packards. Brilliantly restyled by Dick Teague and his design crew using Packard’s 1951 body shell and a pin-money budget, the cars were, as noted in the RM catalog description, modern, fresh and attractive. They managed to look thoroughly up-to-date yet unmistakably Packard. Full credit to Packard, too, for their efforts in making the car utterly forward-looking mechanically as well. But in their rush to present an “all new” car too little development went into these innovations. The first year V8 engines developed noisy hydraulic lifters and too soon these proud automobiles could be heard coming down the street sounding like a concert of castanets. The Dual Range Ultramatic was a great idea on paper but it became known for blowing seals and dumping fluid on highways, byways and driveways. The third leg of the innovation stool also was shaky in its execution—the cars could be seen driving along in a nose-down attitude like chrome-plated Bloodhounds or tail-down like a James Dean Mercury due to lousy electrical connections in the overly complex suspension system. This, needless to say, is not the way Mrs. Plushbottom expected her expensive new Packard to behave and the 1955 cars lost the company an immeasurable amount of good will among long-time marque loyalists. Inevitably, this was reflected in Packard’s dismal 1956 sales and brought Packard to the brink of extinction
I just added the list price of the Packard after initial posting. $5,932 f.o.b. Detroit. Refer to the Avanti-Corvette discussion for the reasonableness of that price.