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Next we are going to hear that Ford thought of that idea first in 1929 by building the Ford Tri-Motor, and then I will have to do research to find out if Studebaker designers working on their spare time had anything to do with designing it.
There really is no such thing as an Avanti engine. It's a Studebaker engine in an Avanti. So I guess one could take an engine out of an Avanti and put it in a Hawk and say "that's an Avanti engine"---in THAT sense, okay!
Otherwise, you can "make" an Avanti engine in your garage no problem. To make a Corvette engine would require quite a bit more fabrication, including re-stamping, machining and a lotta new parts.
Again, it's a case of Studebaker making a good deal out of very little. That's what Studebaker did all the time.
I still don't understand why the Corvette engine was so much different than the Chevrolet engine but the Avanti engine is just another Studebaker motor, unless it is an R-3 or R-4, in which event all the credit goes to to the outsider, Andy Granatelli although he was employed by Studebaker at the time.
In defense of Andy, he did not spend his spare time working on designs for the competition or undercutting Raymond Lowey by re designing the Avanti as Virgil Exner did when employed by Raymond Lowey when designing the 1947 Studebaker models.
As a result of what I learned here, I now know that the first Chevy Corvettes were powered by Chevy Biscayne motors and that our 1963 Chevy Biscayne was powered by a Corvette motor. If my Mom knew that, she might have appreciated it more. Maybe not.
I don't remember the Corvette engines being any different? If it had the base 250 HP 327, I thought the engines were no different than a 250 hore 327 that came in an Impala.
I don't think there were any differences at least not in those engines.
Now the earlier 283's with 2 4 barrels, those may have been beefed up?
Engine Used in the Avanti
I found this article helpful in clarifying my own research on the subject.
As the author sums it up: "There is no such thing as an Avanti block, head or crank as there would be with a Corvette"
The horse is dead, stop beating it, your host begs you. :P
Okay, if you read the article I will NEVER bring this up again, promise, unless somebody asks me directly.
I don't deny a single thing in that article. I do deny that a 250 or 300-hp 327 in a base Chevy is a different engine than the same displacement and horsepower in the same year Corvette. It makes absolutely no sense.
I do believe engines available in 'Vettes that weren't available in Chevy passenger cars, like the various "L" engines of later years, were "Corvette-only" engines. If they weren't available in any other model, they are "Corvette engines".
I'm still not exactly certain what the original discussion was about. An Avanti engine is one that was standard in Avantis and optional on Larks and Hawks. An acquaintance who sells far more Studebakers than any other source has recently said an R1 will add 15% to a Lark's value and an R2, 50%, despite his issuance of this data to the price guides which he concedes (and I've noticed) haven't changed this data in eons.
As for an R2 engine boosting the value of a Lark 50%, well that's one man's opinion I guess. If he sells them, then one might naturally expect him to be on the high side.
Remember, one sale does not make a market. Many a man has made this fatal error.
Since he sells on eBay, he's not setting the prices; the market is.
I learned to drive that Studebaker when I was 11 or 12 after my brother had me drive his 1950 Ford flathead as a one gear vehicle; he had me start it up in third gear. It lugged and moved right out. That way I didn't have to shift. In 1963 - 1965 I would see that Studebaker parked at a house when I was home from college so it was still running after we traded it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Admittedly, the Avanti engine could be ordered in any Lark in 63 and 64. But I don't think there's very much that's unique to the 62-64 Corvette engines either, except for some trim items and whatever was required to make it fit into the Corvette. Both the 250 and 300 hp versions of the 327 were available in both Corvettes and full-size Chevys. There are a number of differences between the two engines, the most obvious being the much larger Carter AFB on the 300 hp unit.
I still own a 62 Impala equipped with the 300 hp 327 that I bought new. The 300 hp 327 was a commonly ordered option in both Corvettes and big Chevies. It has the same compression ratio, 2.5-inch rams horn manifolds and dual exhausts as the Corvette. The parts book shows the same cylinder heads were used on both Vettes and big Chevies with the 300-327 in 62 and 63.
Clearly, some later years of Corvettes were available with Vette-unique engines, but I don't believe that was true while the Avanti was in production."
BTW, my Dad had a beat-up '62 Corvette when I was a little kid, and when he blew up the engine, my granddad helped him throw a 70's 400 smallblock in there. I'm sure that would be considered a BIG no-no these days!
On a C2 Corvette 327 engine there should be a partial VIN stamping on the block. I don't know what other differences to look for though.
Stude V8's don't have anything like a partial serial no. on the block, but then, with the production paperwork available at the Stude Museum, it's still easy to check to see if your car still has the engine it was built with (my Avanti-powered Lark does, as does the '64 Daytona sitting in my garage waiting to be picked up and shipped to its new owner in Australia).
"At the risk of beating a dead horse (again), I think it's important to compare what Stude was doing with Avanti engines in 1962 and 63 with what Chevy was doing with Corvette engines in 62 and 63. Comparing the uniqueness of 1963 Avanti engines with the uniqueness of 1970 Corvette engines doesn't seem very sensible -- who knows what Stude would have put into Avantis if they were still building them in 1970?
Anyway, I dug out a 1963 Chevy parts book and looked up a few critical engine parts for 1962 and 63. The following parts were common to both big Chevy and Corvette engines with the same horsepower rating: block, heads, cam, valves, and water pump. Two crankshafts were listed for 62-63 Corvettes, one of which was also used in high performance Chevys. The second one was unique to the Corvette, though it appears that that unique crank was only used in fuel-injected engines. The listing was a little confusing -- Chevy parts books are not as easy to use as Stude parts books.
Clearly, the FI engines were unique to Corvettes, but those aside, I couldn't find much else to differentiate Corvette engines from the high-performance engines that were available in big Chevies in 1962 and 63."
And, perhaps it's one of those things where, if the Corvette hadn't become such an icon, nobody would have even cared?
On another subject, I read today that a '56 Golden Hawk, in #2 condition, sold for $80K very recently at auction. This is down from the $99K one sold a couple months back at auction, but this is two in a short period of time. I'd never pay that for one, but I think it does show that Studes sometimes bring more than Big Three makes, despite the old, rehashed conventional wisdom.
Shifty explained how the VIN stamping on Corvette engines from that era drives the appetite for precise numbers-matching examples -- at least to get serious Corvette money. Vintage Ferrari and Porsche fans are apparently less afflicted with all that. (edited to add this link to a Project Cars post about Corvette engines.)
But regarding the 327/ 250hp or 300hp Corvette engines, I don't know what else beyond the block stamping might possibly be different from other Chevy 327 engines - if anything. It's difficult to sort that part out based solely on factory advertised hp ratings. Advertised hp ratings seemed intended more for marketing than engineering purposes.
Btw, congrats on the Daytona sale. Are you shopping for another car or just making room in the garage? :shades: This may not be a bad time to shop for a collectible depending what you're looking for.
My '64 Daytona is more of a fixer-upper than I'd hoped. I bought it sight-unseen (only photos) in 2009. The car was sold new in my hometown by my friend, the Studebaker dealer, who remembered the car and the owners. I remember the car in town back 'til about 1974. It was a sentimental purchase, and I love the '64 styling. But it's more than I can tackle. My '63 Daytona Skytop is a much-nicer car that I've owned since 1988. The same buyer has expressed interest in it too, for next year. If we can work out a deal, I'd sell it too, and buy a nice, solid '63-66 Stude two-door sedan, any engine, that doesn't need much work at all, and I'd enjoy having the extra $$ from the sale to figure some way to help put my daughter into college in the fall of 2012!
In the book 50 Years of American Automobiles: 1939-1989 by the Editors of Consumer Guide http://www.amazon.com/50-Years-American-Automobiles-1939-1989/dp/0881765929 there is a photo of a white Skytop Lark which appears to be powered by an “R-series Jet Thrust engine developed for the Avanti” (proper name). I was wondering if it is your car. If so, it is a nice photo.
Correction...I've just read that the car was bid to $80K but the crazy owner didn't accept the bid!
It seems like you won the argument about the Avanti engine then because nobody said that the Corvette had a unique engine block that was only used for the Corvette and that seems to be the standard of review.
But now I wonder if the motors in the Avanti IIs are properly called Corvette engines, or Avanti GM engines, or Avanti Chevrolet engines.
This is too much for me to decide now because the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim are playing a baseball game I want to see today. :shades:
Enjoy the game! I've gotten all sweaty today waxing my wife's Chevy van...even the roof...here in OH where today's the first nice, non-rainy day we've had in two weeks!
I also agree that a collectible car which is already "done" or in excellent original condition is much better than a similar car which needs fixed up. It's a funny thing because the first story I ever read about a collector of modern post war cars was around 1975. (I don't think they were called muscle cars back then.) The collector was from NY and showed off a beautiful 1963 Corvette with knock off wheels that he rarely drove.
That guy was unusual for 2 reasons: he had no interest in the pre war stuff which was most of the car hobby back then and he had no interest in "restoring" cars. He would search for very well-kept, well-optioned stock cars and make an offer. Looking back now, I think he was a smart fellow ahead of the curve which didn't come around for a long time!
Oh, yes...the college funding part is definitely a priority and puts all else into perspective. My nephew is less than 15 credit hours shy of his undergrad degree and it's crunch time for the coming fall/winter. Surprising now what a public college education can cost in the long run, loans and all that. Good luck to your daughter this fall and the rest of the way.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
By the way, I had my 1989 Cadillac Brougham out for the first time since November and she ran like a champ! :shades:
Sorry...lame Studebaker humor there!
'89 Brougham...does that have the silver lower bodysides or is it earlier than that?
Good, then. I didn't like the huge headlights and silver lower trim on those cars!
One thing I liked about the Brougham which started in I think '84 or '85 was the body side molding which was the color of the car. Most times, cars look better without the side molding, but with the Brougham it blended in so well, and didn't detract from the other trim on the car, like the rocker trim, etc. Good feature.
Remember the Brougham coupe? I think they still called it a Fleetwood then. Wasn't crazy about that tiny quarter window, but had the great exterior trim of a Fleetwood and that wonderful Brougham interior!
A '63 Lark with factory R2 (factory front fender badges read "Avanti Supercharged") beats a '70 GTO Judge. The Stude's driver was over 70 years old at the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIyX7lWj7ws&feature=related
For what it's worth, I trust the Parts Book over hearsay, much as I trust information in a carmaker's sales brochure over something I see in a Consumer Guide book or the like, many years later.
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Technically, there's no such thing as an Avanti engine. It's a regular Studebaker block through and through with a few bolt-ons, unlike say a Corvette engine which would have internal strengthening and special heads, etc.
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After the differences between the R-series engines and the standard 289 Studebaker engines were discussed, the rules were changed and the degree of difficulty in was increased to require that Studebaker must have a complete engine block to make it a unique Avanti engine at post #869 which says this:
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The original discussion was about how there is no such thing as an Avanti engine block. I think the article pretty much spells out why this is so and why it differs from the special internal parts, castings and heads used by GM for its high performance engines.
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In summary Chevrolet took its engine and modified its engine for the Corvette and Studebaker did the same for the Jet Thrust R-series known as the Avanti engines which were standard equipment for all Avantis but were available as an option for other models. It is not correct to say that all Studebaker V-8s are Avanti engines.
There is a big difference between Chevrolet and Studebaker V-8s because Studebaker did not have to redesign or strengthen its engine block as Chevrolet did repeatedly. Studebaker got its block right the first time although it was introduced four years before the Chevrolet engine.. As wikipedia states, the Chevrolet engine had to be redesigned just to get from 265 to 283 cubic inches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_small-block_engine
The 265 ci V-8 was bored out to 3.875 in (98 mm) in 1957, giving it a 283 cu in (4.6 L) displacement. The first 283 motors used the stock 265 blocks. However, the overbore to these blocks resulted in thin cylinder walls. Future 283 blocks were recast to accept the 3.875 bore.
What's sort-of ironic is, although I didn't grow up in the town I live in now, I've talked to several Studebaker folks who lived there back then and have also taken note of this while at the Studebaker National Museum archives...our town's Studebaker dealership, Jim Lee's, sat on the exact spot Wal-Mart is on now!
An old car will add a bright spot to many a person's day when encountered unexpectedly. That Lark certainly added to mine.
Later in the afternoon at a car show nearer home I saw a completely restored Hawk completely black with deep red seats. Sorry, no pictures. I think it's the one I posted a few months back when I saw it around the Greater Dayton area on the move under its own power.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/hawk2.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/hawk2.jpg
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My hometown Studebaker-Packard-Benz dealer (pop. 9,200 in 1950) now lives quite near the intersection of I-70 and I-270 on the SW side of Columbus. Small world.
One of the posters on Edmunds posted a link to a Studebaker site with pictures of their Lark taken in bucolic country scenes. Was that your pictures? This was before this Studebaker topic was started. Might have been in Mystery Cars after I posted a Studebaker picture from a local cruise-in.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Studebaker did not have the financial resources to produce the variety of parts required in order to make their engines application specific. Given the quantity of units produced, it might not have been cost effective anyhow. Consequently, they engineered their engines for worst case scenarios and light duty applications resulted in gross over design.
You are right that not every all Studebaker V-8s are Avanti engines. What I should have said is that, unlike in the Chevy, if you got an engine available in the Avanti (i.e. R-series) in your Lark or Hawk, it was an Avanti engine (that is, built to the standards used for an engine going into an Avanti).
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
That sounds right. I remember lots of orange and the colors of fall in the background.
I like seeing cars that are original, just the way I saw them when I was young and they were new. I remember that yours was.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A Valiant sitting nearby had a huge V8 crammed under the hood.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am not a big fan of 70s-80s style hot rods either. The tri-Chevy with a big engine was played out a long time ago.
My car had optional wheel covers like the Golden Hawk when I got it, but after they got stolen (when the entire car was stolen) , I went back to stock wheel covers which are so nice that people often ask me if they are custom.
They guy who painted my car decided that he liked the look of Studebakers too, so he bought a pretty good 1962 GT Hawk, painted it the color of Campbell's soup and totally customized it including the engine and drive train. Then when he tried to sell it, nobody wanted to buy it. Serves him right so far as I am concerned. He wanted me to find him another Studebaker, but I am not looking very hard.
Probably shouldn't have chosed 'split pea'... :P