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Postwar Studebakers

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Yes, I've seen at least one at the Studebaker National Museum over the years. I believe they are rated as a full "Classic". I have a harder time relating to prewar cars, but a Four Seasons is a gorgeous car.
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I figured it was worth about $125,000, restored of course.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    I remember reading a lot of old Avanti advertisements and they mostly emphasized performance and ease of driving. Very little mention of the styling other than the usual "distinctive" or "different".

    An advertisement from Studebaker is worth 1000 words.

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well shut my mouth! There it IS! The "wedge" comment. :surprise:

    It doesn't really look like a wedge car though, does it? C'mon, Studebaker, look at your own car for gawd's sake!

    I don't think of "wedge" as a compliment in the context of car styling.

    I always think of a wedge car as:

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    The wedge

    image

    And what a pile of crap it was...when I was a little kid I thought these were pretty hot though.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Not a true wedge like those later cars, but no doubt the closest thing to it in summer '62. The drop-snout look of the Avanti was probably more aerodynamic than the run-of-the-mill '62 car.

    On a different subject, I always thought the first Cavalier's taillights were a total rip-off of the TR-7's taillights. I remember when a friend and I drove around the Lordstown plant and saw a few pre-production Cavaliers sitting out. I couldn't believe the similarity.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    The "wedge" cars you mention are later than 1963, plus Studebaker had to fit a rather large V-8 under the hood. For example, the Wright Brother's first Flyer does not look much like modern airplanes because it was the first. I see a wedge from the side and a "coke bottle" shape from when viewing the Avanti from above.

    It is not easy to see the color of the wheels when the full wheel covers are on.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited July 2011
    On a different subject, I always thought the first Cavalier's taillights were a total rip-off of the TR-7's taillights.

    I see the Avanti's tail lights, back up light on the trunk, coke bottle shape and air scoop under the bumper on the second series Cavalier. Show me a car before 1963 that had those features.

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    Well I dont' see no stinkin' "wedge" in an Avanti, but I do see a design that was quite different from most other cars of the time.

    Seems like the coke-bottle shape found imitators but the shovel-nose didn't get many copiers.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    I never thought of those lights before - you're right. Maybe not a coincidence, when I was a little kid I also thought the early Cavalier fastback was fairly sharp for what it was. I was more odd as a kid than I am now.

    Shovel nose...only other that comes to mind is a 70s Vauxhall Chevette.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I always thought the rear of mid'90's Pontiac Bonnevilles resembled the Avanti some--tucked in and under at the bottom.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    You mention the early Cavalier fastback. Sure seems like you never saw many of those, did you? They called them "Type 10".
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Yep, the Type 10. I remember around 1983 or so (I was in first grade), my best friend's mother had one, white with a sunroof, seemed like a very cool car, compared to my mom's gigantic barge T-Bird anyway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You see something of the shovel-nose here:

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Woo! Bet that baby will never be displayed in an art museum as Avantis have!
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    You see something of the shovel-nose here:

    The front of that Toyota does not look anything like the Avanti and I never heard the term "shovel nose" used, although I did hear of such terms as "aerodynamic wedge design." The Avanti had no grille, no chrome and the air intake under the bumper. Even GM discovered how to make the front end of its cars look like the Avanti. . .about 30 years later.

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    A few 1970s Vauxhall models had a shovel nose, the Brits call it a "droop snoot"

    image

    image

    image
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep if you google "shovel nose" you'll get the Avanti, the Chevette and maybe some of the other shovel-noses shown here. It's a term in common use. It's basically like a reverse Kamm-back but a more generic term. "Kamm" comes from a real designer's name.

    I don't know about "aerodynamic" which is more of a marketing term, but the Avanit's coefficient of drag wasn't bad at all for the day...around .33 I think.

    You can't really tell CD by the shape at all. It could have good "aero" looks and a terrible coefficient of drag.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Those Vauxhalls do have a similar front-end design to an Avanti, but they all lack the forward rake ('going downhill' look) than an original Avanti has, which is probably where Studebaker got the 'wedge' idea.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    Yep if you google "shovel nose" you'll get the Avanti, the Chevette and maybe some of the other shovel-noses shown here. It's a term in common use.

    The only car I see known by name as a "shovel nose" is the 1932 Packard.
    http://www.cars-on-line.com/47212.html
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Depends on the search terms you use: Do "shovel nose Avanti" and you'll get many of the cars considered "shovel-nosed".

    Again, this is NOT a technical styling term like "Kamm-back" where everyone agrees on what it is; basically, all that "shovel-nose" means is a backward tilt of the nose of the car, that's all.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    More like a "fishmouth". I know, I know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but that has to be one of the most unattractive front ends every put on a car. It is so amateurish, I am surprised Studebaker even approved such a thing. And putting the Packard name on it really speaks to how clueless Studebaker leadership was in '58.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    That one is a particularly original-looking example. The whole Packard Hawk concept was the baby of Roy Hurley, who came to S-P with Curtiss-Wright when they provided financing after the 1956 near-collapse. He wanted a one-off 'custom' Hawk, and the Packard Hawk was essentially what he got. He then pushed for it to enter production.

    Amazingly to me, I have repeatedly seen where, condition-for-condition, a Packard Hawk will bring higher money than a Golden Hawk. Guess it's a combo of the low production (588) and the Packard name.

    '59 would end up being Studebaker's best-ever profit year...with all hints of any Packard name on a product, gone (although the company was called "Studebaker-Packard" until early 1962).
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I might also add, I never thought there was any appeal to a Packard Hawk, until someone pointed out to me, correctly I think, that compared to what most everybody else was bringing out in '58, the Packard Hawk is pretty restrained, both in trim/ornamentation and girth.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    By posting images of all the cars with no chrome on the front, air intake below the bumper and rectangular headliights that came after the Avanti, it tends to prove how much the Avanti influenced cars that came later.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    Except for the fact that everybody hated it in 1958.

    (GOOGLE "Ugliest American Cars")

    There are plenty of freak cars worth money, so on that level, yeah, okay the 58 Hawk works for shock value. But running a freak show would get very old very fast for me, personally, as an owner. I mean, how many times can you stand to have your car pointed at with snickering? It can't be *that* much fun.

    it wouldn't have taken very much to make the '58 "Pakcard" Hawk decent-looking.

    Look how nicely the Studebaker GT Hawk turned out--would it have been so hard to do that in 1958 for this car? I don't think so.

    Here's a pretty even-handed review of the car:

    http://www.autos.ca/classic-cars/motoring-memories-1958-packard-hawk

    The 58 Packard Hawk does have one distinction though--Hemmings Motor News says it was "the fastest Packard ever built".
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited July 2011
    Below is the first Packard Hawk I got to ride in. My Grandfather was the foreman of the 4th floor of the Studebaker factory building in the background when he retired in 1962.

    image

    The front end is not that much different than the 1955 models which were chromed there. The outside arm rests may seem silly, but if you drive a "C" or "K" body Studebaker with the big steering wheel, it is most comfortable with your left arm out the window and the padding there is actually a nice feature.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    To me, a 'freak show' is a '58 Oldsmobile or Buick. That Hawk looks downright svelte in comparison...like comparing Kim Novak to Kate Smith.

    I much-prefer the Studebaker Hawk's front end, though.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    What building in South Bend is that, jljac?
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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Sorry, that Packardbaker just looks odd, kinda reminds me of:
    image
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    My Grandfather was the foreman of the 4th floor of the building that is just above (south of or next to) the administration building. I know from previous posts that you have been there. OR It was across the street (east of) from the Avanti II building. I seem to remember it was Building 22, but am not certain.

    image

    Grandpa used to park his gray 1952 Champion on the wide side walk under the railroad bridge in the morning because he was there early. The photo was of the Packard Hawk was taken where there appears to be a train and there were railroad tracks there at the time.

    I like the image below because it shows the difference between the 1952 and 1953 and 1963 models by the same building. The owner of the 1953 bought it new and still owns it. He was President of the Driver's Club around 1970 and has initials KH. I wish I had a better camera then

    image
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    Here is a pretty good map of the Studebaker factory.

    http://studetrucks.tripod.com/plant03.htm

    My Grandfather was foreman of 4th floor of building 48. I think they had a cafeteria up there, but they did not serve beer, so many workers went to local beaneries for lunch.

    image
    (Pleease don't censor me Mr. Shiftright!!!!!!)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Hey jl, let me know if you want to sell that ashtray from the "Lark Bar"!
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    That building your grandfather was a foreman in, was called the TransWestern building in later years. In the last few years of production, Avantis and Champ pickups were assembled there (although Avantis got final 'doll up' in the smaller building across Lafayette St.)

    Neat photos...thanks for providing.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    When I said my Grandfather was foreman of the 4th floor of building 48, it might have been the larger building 48 A. The map has four different building numbers but it seemed one big, long building to me. Here is another image.

    image

    The yellow Lark is mine, then a white GT Hawk and then the gold Packard Hawk from the earlier image. My father said that he got his 1959 Lark from a garage door at the north side of the building (48 A) without going through the Friedman-Spicer dealership. There was supposed to be
    a “doll-up line” on that first floor. If you could look right, you would see the administration building.

    I wish that I could post my gif image of the final assembly buildings (Nos 82 and 83) being demolished, but I cannot so you can see it at the bottom of the page here. http://stude.net/rollingalong.html

    I do not want to sell the ash tray from Deka’s Lark Bar, but I will keep you in mind if I do. here is some information about Jimmy Deka of the Lark Bar.
    http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2009-01-19/news/26726624_1_polka-music-sons- -senior-moments. Jimmy Deka was a pierogi eating, polka playing man of some fame in the South Bend area.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I'm looking for another Stude but I'm afraid this one is out of my price range because 1) a dealer is selling it and 2) the price is "inquire", which I have done.

    http://significantcars.com/cars/1964studebaker/

    A '64 GT Hawk is my very favorite Studebaker. The 'roots' of the '53 are evident, yet I like it much better than a '53. I would love their dark green or Bordeaux Red better than this color, and I wish it had the front-half-only vinyl top, but otherwise I'd love this car. The jury's out on the Halibrand wheels, which were a Studebaker accessory in '63 and '64, but any guesses as to what the dealer is asking? I'll post when I get a reply from them.

    My guess is $45K.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    I agree with most of what you say about the 1964 GT, the last was the best, but I would estimate the price $10 K lower. I like the red GT you posted awhile ago better. I don't think the Halibrand wheels do anything for the appearance of the car and they are high maintenance.

    The 1953's look nice, but many improvements were made in 1955 including more power, more options, better quality (including electrical wiring ), tighter bodies, better bumpers and the best tail lights ever (simple functional elegance).

    Many complain about the chrome front end of the 1955s, but I think they would have looked worse than the Packard Hawk if the front was painted instead of chrome and sales did improve over 1954. Granted, the 1953-54s have the pure lines with very little chrome, and look better when they are perfectly clean, but they don't look so good in the winter with salt and grime on them.

    I was a little kid when the 1953-1955s were new and could not distinguish between model years, so I thought the 1955s were more expensive cars because the earlier ones were too plain. I ended up with my 1955 because my friend who owned it died in a motorcycle crash, but I liked it so much that I kept it and sold my Avanti. I call this image "Fun Rides."

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Geat pic (subject matter) of your '55, and wonderful color. Thanks for resisting the urge to hang fog lights on it! That's a good-looking car. My friend who was a dealer has told me that in his opinion the '55's were one of the better-assembled-and-delivered Stude model years he remembers...the other being the '60 Larks (no doubt with minimal changes and after a full year of production).
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited July 2011
    My Commander has all the President options except the additional exterior trim and paint, and that is one of the reasons I like it. So what if they borrowed the two-tone paint scheme from the 1955 Chevy. It looks good, so I like it.

    I agree with what you say about the Larks too. My father had an early 1959 Lark 2 door wagon, and it had a broken A-frame above the front coil spring and broken spot welds in the body. That never should have happened.

    There is a movie, Men of Honor, starring Robert DeNiro and Cuba Gooding Jr. where there is a crazy old officer in a tower who talks to himself. When Cuba Gooding arrives on the base and sees this officer, the explanation given is, "The old man has more screws loose than a Studebaker."

    Unfortunately, in times when production was at his highest, quality was at its lowest. But imagine what would have happened if GM planned to sell 20% Camaros and ended up selling 80% of total sales instead. That is similar to what happened in 1953 when coupes and hardtops outsold sedans. The production that year was hectic considering that production for the 1953 model year did not begin until January 1953.

    The 1953 production convinced Studebaker to build the conveyer across Sample Street to get the bodies to the final assembly buildings. After that, they could build them fast enough, but could not sell them fast enough. That is why I put the factory far down the list of problems that Studebaker had, but quality did suffer during times of high production.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    ...and I think my sister or aunt did the Studebaker section.

    A four-door Cruiser worth more than a 2-door hardtop Daytona? Not on your life. Not ever. Not now.

    A fixed-roof Wagonaire bringing a 10% premium over a 'slider'? Absolutely comical. The first thing the numerous folks on the S.D.C. forum ask when a Wagonaire is up for sale, "Is it a slider?".

    Where does OCPG get this stuff? Makes me think the whole mag would be good bird-cage liner.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Maybe it's an error? I can't imagine those scenarios being true, either.

    From what I know, convertible>2 door HT>2 door post>wagon>4 door HT>4 door post - with wagons now being cool and rare they have worked their way up.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The right kind of wagon from the 50s and 60s could definitely top a 2DHT in price.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    The guide actually shows "Add 10% for fixed-roof wagon (introduced mid-year '63)".

    Farcical.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited July 2011
    I thought the sliding roof was a great idea that should have been used by others. This site shows the design similarity of the 1963 Jeep Wagoneer but downplays the importance of Brooks Stevens in designing it. http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/jeep/0801_4wd_1963_jeep_wagoneer/phot- - - o_01.html

    I tend to believe that Brooks Stevens must have been greatly involved in both designs because they are so similar (especially the roof and glass) and arrived at the same time. Someone would have been complaining if their design had been copied. I noticed that the steering column and PNDLR shift selector seems common to both vehicles. Jeep is celebrating its 70th birthday.
    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Maybe they meant sliding instead of fixed? Brain fart, possibly.

    Those Wagoneers are a really timeless design.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    edited July 2011
    At a RM Auction yesterday, a 57 Packard wagon brought 60K and a 58 Olds Fiesta wagon brought 52K. Pretty much going into convertible territory there, indeed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    Well those particular wagons are so much rarer---very few station wagons were preserved or even well taken care of, especially from the 50s.

    It's like what happened to woodies, which are now at the TOP of the price ranges---even above convertibles.

    Of course, we shouldn't jump to too many conclusions about value based on the occasional sale of exceptionally nice, or original cars.

    Just because Barrett Jackson sells an outstanding car X for $100K, that doesn't mean everyone else's tired, banged up rust bucket of the same type is worth $10 more than yesterday.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,414
    Well, to be fair, it wasn't some idiotic B-J affair, I assume it was more low key. These cars were no doubt exceptional, but so were their prices.

    Woodies have always been in their own world, IMO. Kind of a mythical romantic status because of their looks, heavy maintenance requirements make survival rates low, and speculators like them.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
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