Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy

If we're talking an inch or more off, I don't know how 'exact' that talk is. I think it's basic stuff. If someone is sloppy about something that apparent, I'm often left wondering about what I can't see. Emblem placement is especially irritating to me because it often can't easily be remedied...holes have been drilled in the wrong places, or paint will be damaged if the emblem is removed. And...again...it's not something that's hard to get right. As is often the case, you and I agree to disagree on this one

When I bought my '63 Lark Daytona Skytop, it didn't have the individual "LARK" front fender letters. When it was in the restoration shop, I warned the owner to not goof that up. Luckily, he had an original '63 Daytona (not Skytop) of his own upon which he measured. Studebaker's NOS fenders (as is usually the case with most Larks, mine had been replaced along the way) did not come with the holes for the letters in them.

Surprisingly, my '64 Daytona I believe still had the original, rust-free front fenders, as they were still welded to the inners and most folks just pop-riveted them on. (and that '64 was no high-buck restoration, trust me!)

Mr_Shiftright

Well I certainly wouldn't argue that it's *nice* to get emblem placement and such things as correct as you can, and I also agree that small bits of carelessness make me wonder what else they cut corners on----what I was arguing is that such things a) don't affect value very much and b) are blown way out of proportion at judged car shows because with today's over-restorations, judges have to nit-pick and sometimes teeter on the brink of satirizing themselves.

isellhondas

My parent's next door neighbors bought a brand new 1965 Impala SS.

One front fender had "283" emblems and the other said it was a "327".

They had the car for a month or so before someone finally noticed. The dealer replaced the 283 with another 327 because that's what it was!

Mr_Shiftright

I think personally that it was a sad day for the old car hobby when someone decided to apply concours d'elegance standards of judging to mass-produced cars. This type of event came from the days when owners of coach-built luxury cars would gather to display their automobiles on public grounds in Paris and other European capitals.

I remember very well the last time I ever consented to be a concours judge. During the judging in the "postwar American" category, an argument ensued as to whether an accessory on a 50s Studebaker was correct or not. The owner HAD THE FACTORY BROCHURE showing the accessory, and *still* the judges argued about it. I just wanted no part of this lunacy anymore.

I was all for not awarding trophies to MGs with Volvo engine in them but debating the thread patterns on the seats of a Chevrolet sedan made in the 100s of thousands?

Just not my cup of tea I guess.

uplanderguy

Oh, I've seen wrong emblems on cars before...just not inches away from where they were supposed to be. They used templates for location at the factories.

Stuff I've seen:

1) Neighbor's Volare had "Aspen" on the trunk.
2) Didn't see, but heard of Omnis and Horizons with the sister car's nameplate on the back..a friend at the dealership said they called them "Plodge Homnis".
3) I grew up hanging around a Chevy dealer, so my observations are limited to them mostly, but I remember seeing a Nova Concours with the narrow bodyside molding on one side and the optional wider molding down the other side.
4) A new Lumina with the red "Euro" trim down only one side.
5) A '77 Impala in the showroom (!) with a Caprice Classic rear seat and cushion installed (at least it was the same color and material as the correct Impala front seat).
6) A friend's '77 Caprice with three fabric inserts on three doors but a vinyl insert on one door. With the cloth seats, it should have had fabric inserts on every inner door panel.

isellhondas

All of those just go to show that a lot of the assembly people were apethetic and just didn't care and why should they have cared with the UAW protecting them?

Workmanship in those days could be just terrible and they depended on the dealers to handle all of this under warranty.

THIS is how the Japanese got a foothold in the first place. The Japanese cared about quailty at a time Detroit didn't care.

uplanderguy

Those are the items I remember, but I've got to add, this is out of thousands of new Chevys I'd looked at over the years.

I know I'm old-fashioned, but I think cars today are boring as s**t. I know they're better, but I think we can thank the Japanese for offering limited colors, models, bodystyles, etc., and the domestics just followed them. I enjoyed new-car ownership in the late '70's/early '80's...but then, we were buying rear-drive cars still

jljac

The Rivs are formidable competitors for Studebaker GT Hawks, T-Birds and other upscale 4-seater coupes.

I think that the most obvious competitor for the Rivirea is the Avanti. Both cars came out in 1963 and were competitively priced. It was unfortunate for Studebaker that the Riviera came out that same year. The Avanti was definitely faster and handled much better than the long-wheelbase Hawk.

I do like the Hawks and think that the 1956 Golden Hawk led the way for the upscale 4-seater powerful coupes which followed, beginning with the "Rolling Jukebox" 1958 T-Bird, which sold much better than the two-seat model and was one of the few cars that sold well in 1958.

uplanderguy

Oh boy, now you did it! Our host dislikes Avantis as outdated!

I like Avantis a lot..so restrained in an era of excess.

Some time back, I posted a photo of a black Avanti that looked perfectly authentic, right down to tire size/whitewall size/off-white wheel color, and it made me weak in the knees.

I prefer GT's, but I think it's amazing that two of Stude's three lines in '63 and '64 were specialty coupes.

uplanderguy

Although some of the text could be debated, here's the car I mentioned in my above post. I love that first photo best:

http://02a1392.netsolhost.com/mcvcg/2010/04/20/the-corvette-killer-of-1963/

fintail

Back in the mid 90s, my mother was looking at a couple year old Cougar, and it had a Thunderbird steering wheel!

My grandpa had one of those 80s NUMMI Novas as his last company car, and it had Corolla floor mats.

isellhondas

Yeah, it's a looker all right.

I do think the introduction of the Riviera probablhy hurt a lot. In comparing a 1963 Thunderbird to a 1963 Riviera, the Riviera wins hands down.

Studebaker didn't have nearly the dealer network that Buick had so a lot of potential customers probably didn't even bother looking.

That article said that an Avanti could whip a '63 Corvette. I'ld like to see the quarter mile times between the Supercharged Avanti and a fulie '63 Vette.

uplanderguy

I do know the USAC confirmed the Avanti as the 'fastest production car' at the time. I believe it was an R3, which as we've discussed ad nauseum here before, weren't widely built (although this is only because not enough people thought it was worth an extra $1K to get a high-performance Studebaker in the last three-and-a-half months of 1963).

A '64 Lark with R3, which is as aerodynamic as a brick, got quarter miles down in the high 12's before at the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags.

isellhondas

Probably not...too bad.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Avanti-Studebaker-designed-Vette-327-300-HP-- /120719695291?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c1b745dbb

Mr_Shiftright

The reason an Avanti is not going to fare well in a competition with a Riviera is that most people think the Rivieras were attractive, but with Avantis you either really like them or really don't.

In terms of styling, the Avanti has not aged very well. To my eye, a GT Hawk is far more attractive, and stands up better to a Riviera in a popularity contest.

I think the "modern eye" doesn't take well to the shovel-nose type of car or the kammback type of car or the "wedge" type of car anymore.

Some styles don't seem to translate well once they leave their generation.

Maybe what hurts Avantis is the perpetuation of the Avanti ghost, which was like a vampire you just couldn't kill. I bet many people confuse the "real" Avantis with the later versions, which just got homelier and homelier each time they tried to bring back the dead. I feel it diluted the image of the car. They didn't get prettier as they got reproduced and re-made either.

uplanderguy

We agree on the Avanti II diluting the image of the original. I know folks who enjoy their II's and say the Chevy engine is lighter-weight and easier to hop up, etc., but I miss the lack of the forward rake and most of all, dislike the reduced-radius front wheel openings. The Chevy engine couldn't fit under the Avanti hood in the way the Stude V8 could, so that's why the rake went away and the wheel openings in front were reduced.

Speaking of looks, I never really thought about this before, but only since this discussion have I thought that the front corners of the '63-65 Riviera aren't very appealing to me. I'm reminded of Chinese lanterns. I never thought that way before. Love the car in profile; love the rear of the '65, and love the interior of all three model years.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you may be right in the particulars of the Riv, but overall, the car just has that 60s GM "pizazz".

uplanderguy

I will say, I've met the fellow selling that car who has been into Avantis and working on them since '62 and knows them like few others. He has a reputation for honesty and a friend with a '74 Avanti II bought from him raves about him, service after the sale, etc. That said, that car looks like a goner to me (although I do like they were still using the Studebaker turquoise in '67).

uplanderguy

I think I've mentioned this before, but Bill Mitchell, VP of GM styling at the time, although born in Cleveland, grew up in my little hometown of Greenville, PA and was known to return on occasion.

berri

The Rivs are formidable competitors for Studebaker GT Hawks, T-Birds and other upscale 4-seater coupes.

The funny thing is I remember that despite being a 4 seater, the Avanti and its fiberglass body were touted more as a Corvette challenger. Maybe Studebaker marketing wanted to keep interest in the Hawk GT for the 4 seater market to preclude cannibalizing sales?

berri

Bill Mitchell

I think he may have been one of the all time best automotive stylists. Most of his vehicles still look fresh and classic today. At the other end of the design spectrum, I always also liked Virgil Exner. His vehicles jumped all over the board, but I always enjoyed his innovative attempts to keep the car design field interesting and evolving. Both of these guys are sorely missed today, but maybe all of the regulation and modern day issues would have limited them these days as well.

isellhondas

Yes, such talent!

Todays cars pretty much look the same as they strive to meet safety and fuel economy goals.

As kids, a lot of us cojuld stand on a corner and call out the model and year of every car that passed by.

Heck, I can't even tell certain years of Hondas apart and I'm pretty good at that.

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt the Avanti could have been marketed against the Corvette, although it might have been worth a shot. The Corvette was all about youth, sun, fun, racing. The Avanti was an older person's car, like the T-Bird. It just wasn't "bad boy" enough I guess. By 1963 the Vettes had already been to Le Mans and Sebring (not that they did all that great in international racing) and were established in the public's mind as "sports cars" or "race cars".

Avanti was in a tough tough niche from the get-go---the Vettes were getting meaner and the T-Birds more and more full of bloat. It's almost like the niche split in two directions and Avanti was prepared for neither.

uplanderguy

I believe the Avanti was marketed as more leaning towards Corvette than Riviera and Thunderbird. Fiberglass body, lack of brightwork, 4-speed transmission on a good chunk of production, disc brakes and the heaviest-duty suspension bits all standard. In fact, somewhere in the house I have an ad for the '64 model where it lists several things it has and at the end of the sentence, in italics, it says, "....that seats four". I think the implication is, it has stuff like that other fiberglass sporty car, but has a back seat. The GT was marketed as a much-lower-priced alternative to Thunderbird.

texases

Well, it may have been marketed that way, but I don't think the market cared. Those niches didn't overlap in reality.

uplanderguy

I also remember the buff magazines saying the Avanti had the truest bucket seats this side of the Atlantic. I don't think anybody was saying that about the Riv or Thunderbird.

berri

I recall back in those days some magazine and newspaper articles actually comparing the new Avanti to the Corvette. Even though it was a 4 seater, the Avanti offered some big time engine power options with a lightweight body.

Mr_Shiftright

I think you're right. The marketplace didn't much notice the Avanti. The car got pretty good press but buyers knew Studebaker was in a death spiral. It's hard to sell cars when the public is aware of your imminent demise. The car could have gone 200 mph and it wouldn't have mattered at that point.

uplanderguy

The magazines' positive comments about Avanti bucket seats are apparent in that photo I posted recently. They really are buckets, unlike even the '63 Sting Ray's.

There were many orders for the Avanti at introduction time, but Studebaker couldn't build them quickly and there were problems with MFG's bodies, which made Studebaker decide to build the fiberglass bodies in-house. Six-month wait times for an order was considered ridiculous then, and many buyers understandably went elsewhere.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's what happens to a capital-starved company---they can't build the cars. Besides they were very expensive. You could buy a Buick Riviera or a Corvette split-window coupe or convertible for less, and a Series 62 Cadillac coupe for about the same money. That's a brutal price-point for an independent car company, and very stiff competition as well.

jljac

Avanti was in a tough tough niche from the get-go---the Vettes were getting meaner and the T-Birds more and more full of bloat. It's almost like the niche split in two directions and Avanti was prepared for neither.

I think that Studebaker picked a pretty good niche between the two-seat Corvette and the four-seat Thunderbird. The problem was the production delays and the price. Studebaker announced the Avanti at the New York auto show in April 1962 and gave one away at the Indy 500 but could not produce enough while the excitement was still fresh.

By September 1963 the Avanti was old news and you could buy a 327 cu. in. Sting Ray split-window coupe for $4,252 ( $4,037 for the convertible) or for $4,333 you could buy a new Riviera with a 401 or 425 cu. in. V-8. Chevy sold 21,513 Sting Rays and Buick sold 40,000 Rivieras that year. An Avanti cost $4,445, was available with only the 289 cu. in. V-8 of unknown horsepower because Studebaker wouldn't cite any horsepower figures. If wanted an R-3 you had to pay "top of the line" Cadillac prices and wait a long time to get it.

This seems like a pretty good niche which was later exploited by the Riviera, Monte Carlo and second generation Camaro-Firebirds such as the one seen on the Rockford Files. Studebaker only wanted to sell 30,000 Avantis in the first year of production but they took a gamble with the large rear window and lost that bet when it would not fit into too many bodies they received from Ohio. Chevrolet played it safe and put a split window in the 1963 Corvette, although that was a much smaller glass area.

The Avanti was supposed to generate excitement lead the way to more streamlined cars from Studebaker, but when the leaders (Avanti and Egbert) faltered, there was not enough money (or interest) to carry out the Egbert plan to move away from boxy cars that everyone else was selling.

The pro types shown below have many styling features that showed up in later cars including no decorative chrome, no grille, one- piece door windows and hidden windshield wipers. http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/592917,18846/1962-Studebaker-Avanti-Protot- ype_photo.aspx

uplanderguy

Base price of the entire Avanti run at Studebaker, June '62 through Dec. '63, $4,445.00.

uplanderguy

That prototype, I have sat in. It moved with Avanti Motors to Youngstown, OH in 1986, and only last year was rescued from the bones of what was left there to be bought by the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend where it resides now. While still in OH and awaiting pickup by the Museum folks, I had a chance to sit in it. There was also a black version with two-doors on one side and one on the other...more of a notchback style. It's now in the Museum too. They were hand-built in France by an independent body maker there, apparently someone Loewy knew.

I have to say that I'm happier with the way the production Avanti ended up over what these prototypes look like , but I'm glad they were rescued at the last minute. They are a nice-size part of Studebaker's history in South Bend the last couple of years.

berri

Did the Avanti come out during the Andy Granatelli (spelling?) days at Studebaker?

uplanderguy

Yes, the Avanti came out during Andy Granatelli's days with Studebaker. He was a Studebaker VP, running the Paxton Products division (superchargers). He spoke at the Studebaker National Museum several years ago and said he had been hand-picked by cancer-stricken Studebaker president Sherwood H. Egbert to succeed him, and that he (Andy) and his wife were looking at homes in South Bend when the shutdown was announced on Dec. 9, 1963.

Long story made short, but I had met Egbert's secretary Martha Fleenor a couple times in the past twenty years. She had said that when Egbert and family got on a small plane at the South Bend airport to fly home to California, in January of '64, she and Andy were the only people there to see them off. Andy asked her if she had a lipstick, and she handed him one from her purse. He proceeded to write on the plane, "We love you and will miss you".

Mr_Shiftright

right...jilac posted the cheaper Riviera and Corvette pricing already.

Thee Avanti was just too expensive for what you got. Really, content-wise, it should have sold under $4,000.

It wasn't the fault of the car. It was the fault of the price and the company who built it.

uplanderguy

I'm mostly joshin', but people don't question the price of the 'Vette, when it was still stopping with drum brakes all around and had to do with a two-speed automatic if you were feeling shiftless...not to mention getting two little back windows instead of one big one!

jljac

Base price of the entire Avanti run at Studebaker, June '62 through Dec. '63, $4,445.00.

We agree on the price, but for that base price you got "custom" (cheap) interrior trim panels and a three-speed manual shift (no overdrive) on the floor. My Avanti had the three-speed on the floor (which I changed to a T-10 four speed) but the better ("Regal") interrior trim which is most commonly seen. Therefore, most Avantis sold for more than their base price, which was already higher than the Corvette, T-Bird and Riviera.

The two protypes shown were nowhere near ready for production, (the bodies sit too high off the frames) but I like their size, shape and glass area. It would have been interesting if Studebaker could have sold more Avantis during the first six months of production.

jljac

I had to look quite awhile before I could find an image of an Avanti with the base price "custom" interior trim. This is the best I could find.

I never saw many with that basic interior. The optional interior looked much better.

uplanderguy

One can't see the perforations in what you showed which was called the "Deluxe" interior. The perforated panels resembled what was later used on '90's Cadillac Sevilles. The pleated "Regal" interior was a no-cost option and eventually superceded entirely the "Deluxe" interior. I agree that the pleated interior looked better, especially noticeable on the door panels. One thing I liked about Avanti interiors was that everything was soft-padded...even the bottom of the dash, where everyone else's was metal. Now that I think about it, same about the bottom of the dashes on Larks and Hawks those last few years.

isellhondas

Have you ever tried looking out the back windows of a '63 Vette?

Bad enough with the one piece!

jljac

The Avanti interiors were very nice, especially at night with the red gauges and overhead rocker switches. I am not certain if the photo I posted previously shows the "Deluxe" interior" but I remember being happy that my Avanti did not have it when looking at a few others that had it because they looked plain.

I think they went too far when they later put the pirate's belt buckle in the door trim panel above the arm rest and do not know why Newman and Altman kept it after removing the "S" in the Avanti II. It served no purpose.

uplanderguy

I'm a sucker for the turquoise interior...thanks for posting!

uplanderguy

Bad enough with the one piece!

I have not had a chance to do this. I've always thought it looked far too "Buck Rogers"-ish and would take a '64 over one for pure looks (not saleability). The '64 still has the horizontal fender vents if one likes those, but the improved rearward visibility and styling IMO. I'm not a fan of the styling of Sting Rays, but I could probably enjoy a '67, where most of the fake scoops had been removed and supposedly improved St. Louis workmanship occurred. I met the original owner of a '67 at a nearby cruise-in and he complained that when his came in, he was disapointed that they had taken out the hole for the hand grip above the glove compartment, that earlier Sting Rays had.

uplanderguy

I'm not sure what happened, but that blue '63 Riviera shows as a no sale with zero bids. Last I looked--yesterday--it had only been bid to $5,900, which is every bit a surprise to me in that it was bid so poorly, as that same-year Hawk which was sold and bid so high.

Mr_Shiftright

And next week you'll see the exact opposite. That's why you need lots of sales from various venues to construct a "market price", for Studes, Rivieras or whatevers.

Best thing to do is snip the ears off any unusually low or unusually high sales results and try to keep within "the bell curve" where most of the results occur.

Widow sells pristine '64 Avanti for $5000 / car dealer sells pristine '64 Avanti for $75,000. Neither one is the fair market price.

uplanderguy

I guess all I'm trying to get across is, there sure have been a lot of Studebaker high-priced 'anomalies' of late. Last time we had this discussion, there weren't any high-scoring '63 Rivs on eBay either. Is a high-priced '63 Riv an anomaly? Based on what I've seen--and I do look at them--that seems the case. Again, I have to believe eBay is more an arbiter of what's happening out there than brick-and-mortar stores or value guides which don't seem to update in ten years, except possibly for inflation which enables them to change enough prices to keep selling issues on the newsstand.

uplanderguy

The '65 Riv GS mentioned earlier here, ended bidding at $26,100.

It will be interesting to see if it gets relisted, since the two highest bidders had zero feedback. Still, that seems like a good price for the car. I think so many other colors than silver would look better on the car though.

Here's a '65 Riv (non-GS) on eBay now that I like a lot...although that one troublesome bubbling area might give me a little pause. BIN is $20K:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Buick-Riviera-1965-buick-riviera-2-door-hard-top-- - 51-900-orig-miles-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b9476fe0QQitemZ140547420128QQptZ- - USQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

I love that color--so mid'60's GM.

I think all the bigger '65 GM cars were great-lookers. I'm able to enjoy them; I just prefer '60's Studebakers mostly since they're not so nearly commonplace at car shows.

isellhondas

Something isn't right about the "sale" of that '65 GS Riviera.

As you said, the final bids were by zero feedback "bidders". It ended up at 26,100, which in my opinion was WAY too much for that car yet it didn't hit it's reserve?

That other '65 needs a lot. It looks to me like a typical IL rust bucket that has been tarted up to sell. Standard interior, wrong color etc.

I think that with that Riviera the harder you looked, the more problems you would find.

uplanderguy

I have seen many other '65 GM cars that color--by 'wrong color', do you mean wrong color for a high resale? Isn't it funny that until recently, most every color was standard equipment on a car, but as the cars mature and become collectable (those that do, anyway), certain colors bring more $$ only at that point in time.

I really like the dark turquoise GM used in that same '65-67 time period.