Postwar Studebakers

fintail

Via the Stude-Packard relationship and the love of old dealerships here, I found this one to be cool. Photo is from 1961, I think:



Dealer is still there, same building, although now not covered with ivy. Similar story to W.I. Simonson, the dealer in Santa Monica where the fintail was sold new.

uplanderguy

Used by permission of the author, Ken Jones. His grandfather owned Stewart Jones Motors, in St. Petersburg, FL, a Studebaker dealer who added M-B (Ken is currently having his grandmother's last car, a Bordeaux Red '64 Daytona Hardtop, restored):

"In 1963 my Dad won a trip around the world thru a Mercedes-Benz contest. Each time Dad sold a Mercedes, his name would go into the hat for their drawing. His name was drawn. He & my Mom got to see the world on Mercedes "dime". I was in Kindergarten when they were gone for that month of world travels.
At each stop, Mercedes would have a English speaking personal guide for them.
They visited Egypt. Besides riding Camels, one of the things they did was to view some one of the step pyramids. Their guide asked, "Do you want a piece of a pyramid?" Then he went to its base a kicked and stone free. Today they would be in jail for having received that antiquity. Yes they still have a piece of the pyramid on display at their home. 😲😂
All thanks to Studebaker becoming the NA Distributor for Mercedes-Benz in 1957. Here is the '57 newspaper publicity photo. My Dad is behind the wheel of the 190SL. There is a '57 Silver Hawk in the background. No, those valuable silk wall banners were thrown out for the next model year. Who knew of their future value??? "😲

uplanderguy

Here is Ken Jones' grandmother, with the '64 Daytona she had owned since Sept. '63 and gave to Ken in 1997:

ab348

The SL is certainly nice but I'd like to have that Silver Hawk.

fintail

I've always been surprised the 190SL was such a chic thing, and became a hot commodity in this century. I guess they have the look - as performance might be a little tepid, although maybe no worse than any other little 4cyl roadster of the era.

uplanderguy

I like the optional vaned wheelcovers on the '57 Silver Hawk in the pic. And I've long-been a sucker for '64 Daytonas, and even owned one sold in my hometown which had been, ahem, over-represented by the Wisconsin seller when I bought it in 2009.

Here is a 190SL at my hometown dealer--I'm assuming '57 or '58 since the "Commander V8" neon sign is still in the window:



When Studebaker and Packard merged to become Studebaker-Packard Corporation in 1954 (in reality, Packard bought Studebaker), Studebaker had a larger existing dealer network. In cities that already had separate Packard and Studebaker dealerships, the two generally didn't combine. Also, I used to hear that only the most-select Studebaker dealers got M-B, but my gut feeling is that if the dealer was willing to invest in signage, parts, and training (e.g., my hometown dealer sent their chief mechanic to M-B school in NYC), they got the M-B franchise. But I am aware of Studebaker dealers that were near where I live now, that did not add M-B.

Supposedly, a lot of Packard stand-alone dealers were signed as Edsel dealers, perhaps to their later dismay when Larks provided Studebaker's biggest profits in its history while the Edsel floundered right out of the gate. Again, some may have been at a disadvantage to have been in a city that already had an established Studebaker dealer.

fintail

Hard to tell the year on a 190SL, they are very similar through the run from 1955-62, the differences are things like parking light style and window size on hardtops.

I mentioned it before, the Packard dealer in the small town where my mom lives became an Edsel dealer. The town also had a Stude dealer, and I don't think they were linked. Kind of surprised the town (no more than 20K people) had a Packard dealer, but it is the largest town in the county and within ~50 miles or so.

uplanderguy

Something that I noticed in Ken Jones' overhead showroom pic of the 190SL was how thin the sheetmetal looked around the wheel opening, and all the open space inside there; made me recall my dealer friend telling me he thought the 'metal was thin' on those. To be fair, Studebaker had a problem with rust inside the rear of the front fenders from '53 to the end; supposedly an engineering fix could've cured it at a few bucks a car. Instead, they tried things like 'aluminized rustproofing' near the end, to not great-effect. My first Stude, the white Skytop, was on its second set of front fenders when I bought it; my other three all had the original front fenders.

The thinness around the wheel opening could just be that I'm accustomed to most domestics being flared around the wheel openings, giving an impression of more metal right there--but not really.

fintail

I've never driven a 190SL, only sat in one, but the fenders and doors on the fintail appear to be made from surplus Panzer steel leftover from the war. MBs of that era aren't exactly rust repellent either.

uplanderguy

This dealer at 510 S. Main St., Galax, VA, would've looked like this when I was in kindergarten. How I'd love to step into it today. Apparently didn't have the M-B franchise, but had Jeep. What a variety of vehicles in this pic. I love the '64 Cruiser, and the '63 Standard is probably a 'leftover'. I also love the Champ pickup, and I like the one-ton Transtars he has (two here).

That vertical "STUDEBAKER" sign is identical to the one that hung out at the street at my hometown dealer...background was navy blue; lettering was white.

uplanderguy

In my mind, anyway, Studebaker those last few years strikes me as a small-town/rural kind of make (although that gorgeous dark green '64 supercharged Hawk I've posted here before was sold at the Santa Monica dealer )

I remember reading that smaller dealers in the farming midwest really squawked about pickups and even one-tons and larger, going away when South Bend shut down. Of course I believe that was the plan, sadly.

uplanderguy

Took my car to the first cruise-in I've gone to this year, and most people were wearing a mask when speaking to others (myself included). Took an instrument panel shot of my Cruiser, which I'm not sure I'd done before.

ab348

What's the deal on the interior in this Avanti? Surely not original?

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/studebaker/avanti/2422589.html

uplanderguy

Not in the slightest! I saw that this morning and somebody commented, "looks like an AMC interior" and I'd agree! LOL

That silver trim around the instruments is not original either, although a vendor has sold that piece for a number of years.

The original Avanti interior is padded-soft to the touch just about everywhere, in vinyl. I know when it's your car, you can do whatever you want, but be prepared at selling time for negative comments!

fintail

There was a weird loud optional cloth pattern for fintails, very rare and most often seen on high spec models. Hard to tell in this pic, but I have seen it in a color pic, and it is brash. I wonder if the cloth thing is seen as "European", like plaid in VWs:

ab348

When I saw that plaid cloth my first thought was early '70s Ford material, but I think they were more into loud stripes than plaids. AMC may be a good guess.

uplanderguy

We've discussed this here before, and I included a couple pics, but Stude had to my eyes a beautiful broadcloth (wool) optional interior in Cruisers in '63 that was very rich looking. I have only seen it in a real car in person once, and it was pretty ratty, in a parts car at the restoration shop that did my old white '63.

Stude people always comment positively on the brocade in my '66 Cruiser, but I'd sell it in a heartbeat if I could buy that black '63 with red broacloth and Skytop I've posted here in the past, LOL.

fintail

I like brocade interiors. I still recall looking at a low mileage 65 Caprice when I was maybe 20, silver and black (I think) two tone with a black brocade interior, where the detail was in silver, I think. It looked great. When I was a kid, a relative had a 65 Coupe DeVille with a brocade interior, it also looked cool and aged well, as it was an unrestored car, but the interior was amazingly clean. I recall that car was eventually stolen.

MB used a wool broadcloth/velour as an uncommon option for many years from the 50s into the 90s. Not the clearest shot, this is a fintail with such upholstery:

ab348

One of my favorite interiors was what Ford used on the LTD Brougham (or Landau) in the '70s, a knit nylon (I think) material that the auto writers used to refer to as "panty cloth". Combined with ample padding on the underside so the stitching patterns could give plush rolls and button tufts, it's smooth texture gave a really unique look and feel. I remember it came in a color called Dove Gray IIRC, which looked almost silver, a very deluxe-looking shade. I do wonder how well it held up though.

uplanderguy

In my memory, knit cloth, or nylon, wore like iron. I always remember '71 and '72 Caprices could be had with all-knit, or knit and brocade. I like the looks of the latter (as per photo here), but when the cars were a decade old, the all-knit still looked like new; the brocade, generally not so much. A high-school friend's older '68 Bonneville Brougham had all-knit upholstery and it looked new at probably 100K miles.

http://www.60samcc.com/Chevrolet72/#72Chevrolet_05.JPG

ab348

Stumbled onto this shot of an abandoned Studebaker dealership in Brooklyn, taken in 1985. Hope someone snagged that signage before it was demolished.

uplanderguy

Very cool, thanks for sharing! I have never seen this pic. I love the '63 and later 'lazy 'S'' logo. I always thought Pepsi just moved it on its side for their latest logo.

uplanderguy

Here is a '63 Cruiser with broadcloth interior with 10K miles for sale, for $17K. It was sold at Barrett-Jackson in 2009, with 9K miles and without the door mirror, for $8,800--the listing is still online.

I love the Blue Mist color.

Caveats:

1) I would have to have the fender mirror removed and the holes filled in and paint blended in.
2) It has '63 Hawk wheelcovers; Lark and Cruiser had the white band on them (which I know some people don't like). I'd have to buy them (new repros are available)
3) It's Canadian-built, from the 'C' in the serial number. Canadian Cruisers used the door panels used in the lower-priced Lark Custom in the 'States. I feel pretty certain NOS American Cruiser door panels are still available and I'd have to buy four of them.

After all that, I'd love the car, LOL...besides condition...size, shape, and character.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/hayward-1963-studebaker-10k-orig-miles/7181064894.html

uplanderguy

It's still amazing to me that that car could've been had with a supercharger, disc brakes, 4-speed, and sunroof.

sda

fintail said:

I like brocade interiors. I still recall looking at a low mileage 65 Caprice when I was maybe 20, silver and black (I think) two tone with a black brocade interior, where the detail was in silver, I think. It looked great. When I was a kid, a relative had a 65 Coupe DeVille with a brocade interior, it also looked cool and aged well, as it was an unrestored car, but the interior was amazingly clean. I recall that car was eventually stolen.

MB used a wool broadcloth/velour as an uncommon option for many years from the 50s into the 90s. Not the clearest shot, this is a fintail with such upholstery:

That’s a classy looking interior.

fintail

Stude sure knew how to pick blues. From that car, the turquoisey early Avantis, and uplanderguy's car, they all look good. As someone who likes blue cars, I can appreciate that.

Regarding the options, other than the supercharger, a very European feel - maybe via the MB partnership, some Stude execs knew there was a market for smaller cars that could be highly equipped. They were 15-20 years ahead of the curve, perhaps, as later on the highline Euros started eating the lunch of US luxury makers.

For that fintail interior, it would be even better with a white steering wheel - that car being a high spec example, I am surprised it lacks it, but I am sure more than one owner was turned off at the thought of cleaning it.

uplanderguy

Cute little '62 Champ half-ton pickup on Bring A Trailer, getting some decent bidding. I always liked Champs with whitewalls like this, although I prefer the long bed.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1962-studebaker-champ-truck-4/

imidazol97

fintail said:

For that fintail interior, it would be even better with a white steering wheel - that car being a high spec example, I am surprised it lacks it, but I am sure more than one owner was turned off at the thought of cleaning it.

How did the light color plastics last on steering wheels with touching and the body oils affecting them in those days.

I remember there was a steering wheel manufacturing plant in a city near me where I grew up. Portland, Indiana.

uplanderguy

Studebaker's Canadian plant started using all-white steering wheels in the '64 model year. When South Bend production stopped in Dec. '63 and after that U.S.-sold Studebakers were built in Canada, you started seeing the all-white wheels here--easiest way to distinguish a U.S.-built '64 from a Canadian-built '64. I had a '64 with the all-white wheel, and honestly, I didn't like it. But I bet it was initially another nod to what M-B was doing. My '66, Canadian-built, has a color-keyed solid wheel.

fintail

I think over time they'd maybe yellow a little, although I have seen many unrestored cars with wheels still looking white. My car has a white wheel, but has a grey leather cover over it - I suspect it might have been on since new. I peeled it back a little, and the wheel is pretty yellowed and slightly cracked under it. I know I can have the wheel restored for ~$500, and the thought has tempted me, but removing the wheel makes me a little worried, so I haven't followed through.

I remember the 60 and 66 Fords in my dad's fleet had body color wheels. The 68 Fairlane had a white interior with grey dash, I can't remember if it had a white or grey wheel.

imidazol97 said:

How did the light color plastics last on steering wheels with touching and the body oils affecting them in those days.

I remember there was a steering wheel manufacturing plant in a city near me where I grew up. Portland, Indiana.

uplanderguy

My '64 with the all-white wheel had 103K miles when I bought it in 2009. It had a woven steering wheel cover which I removed, and I don't remember any noticeable wear or discoloration in the white wheel after having done that. Of course, I have no idea how long the woven cover had been on.

explorerx4

@uplanderguy,
Hope you haven't seen this Bud Lindemann review of the Avanti II before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlzrENG2Nvc

uplanderguy

Thanks for posting! I hadn't seen that in a few years probably.

Considering, other than engine, that car is still virtually all Studebaker, Bud was quite complimentary.

I think this was the only car Avanti Motors built with a blower in the '60's, after Studebaker, that is. Too bad it required that unsightly bulge in the hood.

I liked the original Avanti's nose-down attitude, but the Chevy engines beginning with the first Avanti II's in '65 required that that go away.

fintail

Speaking of the wool broadcloth/velour interiors from earlier, here's MB with one again, this one on a car from around 1989 - this old style lived on an infrequently chosen option into the 90s:

sda

uplanderguy said:

Took my car to the first cruise-in I've gone to this year, and most people were wearing a mask when speaking to others (myself included). Took an instrument panel shot of my Cruiser, which I'm not sure I'd done before.

Sharp looking interior. Can the glove box door be adjusted for a better fit? I remember mom’s 72 Cutlass glove box door fit poorly and the dealer said it wasn’t adjustable, they are all like that.

uplanderguy

Funny, I posted this pic on a Stude Facebook page and a guy with a '66 Cruiser said his was like that too and he lost a point or two in judging at a Stude International Meet a few years back. He told the judge that was 'standard equipment', LOL. I haven't attempted to do anything with it--I fear I'd make it worse.

uplanderguy

Nice, low-70's, low-humidity day today, so I took the Cruiser out for a fifteen-mile spin. Here it is at the post office after I dropped a card off inside. The orange sheet I use when I drive it is inelegant, but I want to preserve that beautiful front seat.

fintail

Funny that you do that. I do the same in the fintail, but not to protect a pristine low mileage brocade interior (which I don't have), but to keep the driver's seat bottom from aging further - some of the seams are a bit weak, and this helps. MB Tex is tough, but seams can go in any car. I had the car out today, and snapped a pic:




Stude looks like a new car.

uplanderguy

Pics hide stuff; it has some door dings and the paint down the right side is noticeably duller than down the left. Supposedly it had been in FL for thirty years, which makes me think it sat in a carport there.

I think my three-year-old muffler is shot. On load, the single-exhaust two-barrel 283 is every bit as loud as my old 4-barrel R1 with dual exhausts.

uplanderguy

The BaT Champ is bid to $16K with eight hours left. That's got to be a record for a Champ, or close to it:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1962-studebaker-champ-truck-4/?fbclid=IwAR0OZ3lOZJRRix7ujcGh8bCfBHbilg_RnQCvEHEAnupoqnc47dpRJTfAvyQ

uplanderguy

On your fintail, how do the vent wings open? I'm looking at the door panel and I can't figure it out.

kyfdx

uplanderguy said:

On your fintail, how do the vent wings open? I'm looking at the door panel and I can't figure it out.

I'll guess it's the knob at the top of the door handle. My '67 BMW had a knob.

uplanderguy

That is probably it.

fintail

Yep, the round knob operates the vent/wing windows.

How does a 3 year old muffler fail? The fintail's muffler was installed in 1997! And don't feel bad about a little patina, they are only original once, and my car is definitely in that boat of being a 10-footer. It looked amazing in the hazy sunshine yesterday, bright sun shows more reality.

There's a round light R2 Avanti on the rich guy pissing contest known as BaT, too

uplanderguy

I hadn't seen that Avanti; thanks for posting. Too bad the seller doesn't include the serial number. At 4892 they started getting the square headlight enclosures; there were transition '64's prior to that.

You know me; it's a small thing, but on a sixties Stude of any model, I'm supposed to see a ring of off-white on the wheels behind the wheelcovers, and I can't stand when I can't, like on this car!

On my car, I wonder if the baffles inside the (cheap) muffler failed. I'll take it someplace here pretty soon to make sure there isn't a leak someplace else; but I had my wife 'goose' it a few times while I was underhood, and laid down on the garage floor on the right side, where the exhaust runs. All the noise seems to me to be out the tailpipe.

uplanderguy

The Champ sold today for $22K. That was a really nice resto, but man that's serious money.

uplanderguy

That Avanti fin posted sold today for $40,250.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1964-studebaker-avanti-6/?fbclid=IwAR1S3VQpugf_xSKgjwTQOd8XhvjWWMn7lZB23OHV9htJBhdqCcbK8mHpzmY

uplanderguy

Today is "International Drive Your Studebaker Day", believe it or not, so I did put twenty-one miles on it. Drove it out to Summit Racing's retail store in Tallmadge, near here. Turned over 27K today.

kyfdx

Looks great!

uplanderguy

Don't normally get into 'what coulda beens', but I do like this rendering a fellow did called the "1964 Gran Turismo Hawk Executive Sedan":