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Postwar Studebakers

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think it says "Avanti". Year sounds right, fintail looks to be pre-63
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    "Avanti" is probably right. They started talking about them in April of '62 and I think the cars started trickling out in June '62.
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  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Is the museum worth the trouble? How much does it cost? I've driven by the plant probably 100 times but I've never stopped.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I know you mean the Mercedes museum, but if you're ever travelling west/east on I-80 across Indiana, you should check out the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend, only a couple miles from the interstate. You might be pleasantly surprised at what a facility it is, for a defunct, independent car and truck manufacturer.

    http://studebakermuseum.org/p/about/
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited November 2011
    I agree with the statement that the Studebaker museum is worth seeing, but Studebaker was also the largest maker of horse-drawn wagons and carriages in the world, so there is that history too. One hundred years ago, Studebaker was the second largest auto manufacturer in America.

    Abraham Lincoln was carried to Ford's theater in a Studebaker carriage, and he was not the only President to use them. Studebaker opened for business in 1852 and got big building wagons for the Civil War.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Yep, Studebaker built military vehicles from the Civil War to VietNam.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's free and it's on a highway, so if driving by it can't hurt to stop. It is pretty small though - most interesting there was an old DTM car. The factory tour was interesting, but you have to book in advance.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    What's a DTM? I've heard of DKW...also sold by Studebaker in the late '50's/early '60's...were they part of Benz? I've seen a pic of a small coupe where the rear resembles a '57 T-Bird.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited November 2011
    DTM is "Deutsche Tourenwagen-Masters" - German stock car racing, think of NASCAR with more driving challenges (turns), more varied cars that actually look somewhat like street cars, and most of them being MB, BMW, and Audi.

    It had a high point in the late 80s through the mid 90s:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-AxiVqihM

    Here's the car in the museum:

    image

    The DKW 1000 roadster was a pretty blatant T-Bird copy, but of course when you heard it run and saw it drive, there could be no confusion:

    image

    No MB connection (although I think there may be a DKW in that Studebaker-MB dealer pic)
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    image
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited November 2011
    It doesn't matter who you are. You can't get a Studebaker Standard Farm Wagon that hasn't had a shakedown in Walnut Grove traffic.

    image

    Each wagon is checked on village streets, the trail to Sleepy Eye, and even the rutted muddy road all the way to St. Paul in all conditions: blinding blizzards, flooding rains, sudden epidemics, even the schemes of meddlesome matronly merchants and their spoiled daughters! Studebaker test drivers check for tree branch clearance and splinters. They even go under the wagon to check leaf springs and the mechanical brake rods. There's a check parchment with over 200 items that gets filled out on every carriage. If it's not right, Studebaker doesn't want you to have it!

    Coming through with the kind of wagon Minnesota wants, that's the slogan this year, and I think Studebaker is living up to it.

    I've seen the way they build the 1872 Studebakers. It's obvious they want these wagons to last longer and perform better than any other carriage they've ever built before.

    Your Studebaker dealer can let you take a Standard Farm Wagon out for a local test ride of your own with your three daughters and adopted son. You'll see what I mean.

    image
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    That is very interesting. What is the source of that advertisement?

    Michael Landon owned a 1988 Avanti II.

    http://wizbangpop.com/2009/07/09/cars-of-the-stars-the-great-studebaker-avanti.p- hp
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It's a parody of a 1972 Imperial ad with Arthur Godfrey.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    The fellow who owns Michael Landon's old '88 Avanti convertible owned my '63 Daytona Skytop two owners before me and lives in central OH. Real nice guy (the current owner, that is!).
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I can remember Arthur Godfrey singing in a commercial for the '72 or '73 Chrysler New Yorker. In his stuffy-head voice of that time, singing, "Elegance and grace, styling sets the pace...what a beautiful New Yorker, it's the talk of the town".
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited November 2011
    Now for something really different (by design) here is a video clip of a 1955 Studebaker Commander or President robot bomb from the C- rated spy movie OK Connery (1967). Mr. Shiftright said he painted his Stude black & white, now you can see what happened to it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k85148Ny2wo&feature=related

    The car looks great, but it does not have the great Stude V-8 sound.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think Jack Jones used to sing "What a beautiful New Yorker" in later ads. Andre?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gee, I never took my '55 Stude 4-wheeling...I should have tried that! :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    It is amazing to me that with so few built, so many famous people owned Avantis...and that's even with factoring the numbers built post-Studebaker into the equation. Unscientifically, it's probably higher than any other American car, anyway.

    Too bad they used that blue one as a photo. Non-factory color and wheel covers incorrect (blacked out between spokes).
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    The Avanti was a sensational looking car when it was first produced. The first Lear jet was produced around that time and I remember seeing an article about the Avanti being a Lear Jet on wheels.

    I remember the first one I saw in Oak Park near Chicago in late 1962-early 1963 when I was ten years old. My Mom was driving us to Grandma’s house in our 1951 bullet nose Champion when we came up behind a gold one at a stop light. I could read the Studebaker script on the trunk lid
    and said something like, “Wow, that’s one of ours!” I could not believe the size of the rear window. I wanted my Mom to pass it, so I could see the side and front, but the driver chose not to be associated with our Studebaker and left us behind.

    Some say that the Avanti failed because Studebaker could not build them fast enough, and others say that they did not sell well enough. There is truth to both arguments as shown by the production figures here. http://www.theavanti.com/production.html

    The Avanti was announced in April 1962 and one pre-production car was given to Roger Ward for winning the Indianapolis 500 that Memorial Day, but regular production did not begin until June 1962 and it peaked in January-February 1963 (a short month). That is a period of nine months from introduction until full production.

    Therefore it is true that Studebaker could not build them fast enough until February 1963 and after that they could not sell them fast enough.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    Well they couldn't built them right until Feb 1963 would be more accurate. They had a lot of problems in the beginning that had to be worked out.

    But by 1963, the cards were already stacked against Avanti---a) it was far too expensive and b) the general public had a pretty good idea that Studebaker was going under.

    Had the Avanti come out say in 1960 or so, and been financed (and perhaps subsidized) by the success of the Lark, things might have been different for the car.

    Also the styling was controversial. Not everyone liked it. But it *was* different and it could have been handled so much better. Which brings me to:....

    And finally, Studebaker's sales and promotional department botched the Avanti launch pretty badly, much like they did with the GT Hawk and even the Starlight coupe. They were pretty listless and half-hearted as to how to market the more exciting products from Studebaker--the very products that might have saved them, or at least kept them going longer.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Ironically, just in the past week or two on the Studebaker Drivers' Club site, the club historian posted a letter from President Sherwood Egbert of Studebaker to the head of MFG, who was contracted to build Avanti bodies. Interesting stuff..."Our dealers are screaming for the cars". Eventually South Bend started building their own Avanti bodies as MFG appears to not have been up to the task:

    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?55790-quot-Our-dealers-are- -screaming-for-the-cars-quot-Sherwod-Egbert-6-13-62
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited November 2011
    Here's an internal memo from Robert Morrison, head of MFG. It's comment no. 41 in the link. The original letter is copied on the SDC site as well but one must be logged in with user name and password to see it. It is paraphrased completely in comment no. 41, below. I know these originally weren't for public eyes, but I was pretty stunned to see him talk of Studebaker's "fussiness" and that, quote, "I do not condone the finish of the Corvette and say we should not make the Avanti better than the Corvette".

    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?55790-quot-Our-dealers-are- - - -screaming-for-the-cars-quot-Sherwod-Egbert-6-13-62
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well there's the problem right there. The Avanti was not a Corvette and should not have been marketed as a Corvette competitor. It was not a track car, wasn't raced, didn't have a drop top and didn't even look like a "sports car" as the term was so readily understood in 1963.

    Avanti should have been marketed as an upscale GT car--a "gentleman's express", like a Buick Riviera, Olds Toronado, Pontiac Gran Prix.

    Studebaker's marketing was almost...how can I say this politely...bucolic and provincial in its outlook. They didn't even know what they were actually trying to sell.

    Sure, dealers wanted Avantis...they wanted ANYTHING new and fresh to keep them alive.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Here's a Studebaker video on youtube about the Avanti breaking all records as world's fastest production car (and with Andy Granatelli on board, well, even more impressive! LOL):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG8pdR6VAXw
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited November 2011
    Actually, Studebaker was on a sales upswing in the '62 model year. It was the last year they built over 100K units, and it would have been higher without the strike in January of that year. Lark sales were up from 66K the year before to 93K, and Hawk sales were up from 3,900 to 9,300.
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    Yeah but it was a sinking ship. Their production costs were so high that it hardly mattered how many they sold--what mattered is the profit per car.

    you know, we can look at this from so many angles and there is no one cause for the demise of the company---and by the same token, no one thing, or car, that could have saved it IMO.

    Aside from the strange marketing of certain models (for example, ads about breaking straight line speed records in the desert, while GM was advertising the Riviera with gorgeous interior shots and a well-tanned man in a business suit---NOT Andi Granatelli--LOL!).

    Also, Studebaker neglected the market for women drivers completely with Avanti---but GM did not:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3464280371_f38a8f4079_z.jpg

    We also had the Studebaker problem of very erratic styling year to year---sometimes very good, sometimes very bad. Can we name an ugly GM car for 1963? Don't think so.

    I think it was GM that actually priced out production costs on some Studebaker economy model and said they could built the same car for hundreds less---and in those days "hundreds" was a lot of money per economy car.

    It's not how many eggs you sell, it's how much you make per egg, bottom line.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited November 2011
    An ugly '63 GM car? I can think of several that haven't stood the test of time very well IMHO. And I grew up on GM cars and no one in my family ever worked for any automaker. Bill Mitchell grew up in my little hometown of Greenville, PA, but I think a '63 full-size Olds is nothing to write home about...still had fins in back. Some of the big Buicks had lots of fake chrome scoops and vents (Mitchell seemed to love those). When you see a gazillion of something, it lessens the shock...like '59 Chevys.

    This has always been my favorite Avanti ad. In fact, when in college I took a razor blade and cut it out of a National Geographic magazine from the library and put on my dorm room wall. Terrible, I know!

    http://www.justoldcars.com/image2011/1962-63%20studebaker%20ads/avanti-time-12-0- - - - 6-1963-024-advert-sm.jpg
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    Well in the same way that the '63 Olds puts you off, so too the Avanti turned a lot of people off. It was regarded at the time as too radical a design. You don't want to be too far ahead of your time in car design...just a little ahead.

    Remember, the auto business is a business...it's not about Art School.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Ha, when I was a kid and my parents had a spot in an antique mall, I would buy NGs by the box full at yard sales, slice out the car ads, and sell them in packs of 10-20 in their booth. Terrible, but beats them going to the dump or recycle bin.

    I actually don't mind those Olds, especially the 4 door HTs, fairly handsome to me.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    As a hobbyist, now it is more to me about "Art School" than what was popular then! Similarly, Studebaker's overproduction of parts was bad for them as a company, but gravy for those of us who like the cars, as so much NOS still exists for Lark-era cars...even sheetmetal, trim, and interiors.
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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    That's a lucky break for collectors. There are many cars of that era where parts are just about non-existent. Part of your good luck comes from Studebaker's policy (no doubt of necessity) to continue to use old platforms for as long as possible. I bet there are some parts from a '53 Studebaker that would fit a '63, and of course you can use just about any V-8 block to replace your Avanti engine, should it not be rebuildable.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    It is nice to see such a spirited defense of the Avanti, and the number of rich and famous people who were proud to own one show how desirable it was at the time and for more than 20 years after Studebaker went out of business. Most of the criticisms here are based upon claims Studebaker never made and comparisions to cars that came later.

    FICTION Well there's the problem right there. The Avanti was not a Corvette and should not have been marketed as a Corvette competitor. FACT The comparision made to the Corvette was only that Studebaker wanted a better quality of body than the Corvette. Studebaker never marketed the Avanti as a Corvette competitor. Others made that comparision because it was a small, fast car with a fiberglass body. The Avanti had no competitiors in 1962 when it was introduced. The Thunderbird and Buick Riveria (which appeared later that year) were larger, heavier, slower cars. The first Mustang came two years later.

    FICTION It was not a track car, wasn't raced, didn't have a drop top and didn't even look like a "sports car" as the term was so readily understood in 1963. FACT: What American car besides the Corvette fits that narrow desription? The Corvette has often been marketed as the only "American sports car," class of one to distinguish it from true Eurpoean sports cars.

    FICTION: Avanti should have been marketed as an upscale GT car--a "gentleman's express", like a Buick Riviera, Olds Toronado, Pontiac Gran Prix. FACT: Notice how every car named came after the Avanti? The Avanti WAS marketed as a “personal luxury car" or GT type car for drivers who liked to go fast for long distances. It was never marketed as a Corvette type sports car. Critics did that.

    Studebaker's marketing was almost...how can I say this politely...bucolic and provincial in its outlook. They didn't even know what they were actually trying to sell. FACT: Studebaker knew what they were trying to sell. Critics don't understand what Studebaler was trying to sell. by making claims that Studebaker never made and confusing the issue by saying that Studebaker was trying to market a sports car to compete with the Corvette.

    FICTION: Yeah but it was a sinking ship. Their production costs were so high that it hardly mattered how many they sold--what mattered is the profit per car. It's not how many eggs you sell, it's how much you make per egg, bottom line. FACT: Studebaker did not intend to make a profit on every Avanti sold the first year. The idea was to generate excitement and good press. Chevorlet never made a profit on the Corvette during the first ten years of its existence either. In 1956 Ford sold the Continental as a separate make, not a model of Lincoln. The Continental sold for $10.000 and Ford lost money on every one they sold, so they returned to making it an upscale Lincoln model. I would be surprised if Chrysler ever made a profit on the Viper.

    FICTION: Also, Studebaker neglected the market for women drivers completely with Avanti---but GM did not: FACT: This is partly true. GM could afford to advertise to every niche group. Women did not care much about high performance cars then or now. For example, how many women are participating in this discussion group?
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    Very important point made about the 1962 model year. It was a good year for Studebaker because the GT Hawk got people into the show rooms. In addition to nearly tripling Hawk sales, some of those people ended up buying a Lark or truck.

    The Avanti was supposed to do the same for the 1963 model year, but production was choked by the short supply of bodies as set forth in the Egbert letter to the body supplier. Production missed the September 1963 model year introduction month and did not peak until January 1963. That is not to say that Studebaker released defective Avanti bodies, but it took more time and money to solve the problem than Studebaker had.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    Nobody's "attacking" the car, just the marketing. They didn't sell the car properly. They didn't fully understand their own product.

    Here are some examples of what I mean. People weren't going to buy Studebakers to "go racing". That's crazy.

    http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/pix/Studebaker/images/FY/64%20Stude%20ad%20w%- - 20Avanti.jpg

    Now HERE is a better idea---marketing to women:

    http://studebakerskytop.com/contact61ad.bmp
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    There are probably parts numbers from a '53 Corvette that would fit a '62 as well, since they are both considered "C1" models.
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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    An excellent spot for marketing the Avanti would've been having it featured as James Bond's car in the first 007 movie "Dr. No" in 1962.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    Don't think so. Different body, roll up windows, new grille, dash, windshield, steering.

    Maybe some small mechanical parts would fit.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yes, that would have been *great* for Studebaker. Certainly Mr. Bond typifies the type of man who would drive a "gentleman's express". You'd need a fast 2+2 coupe to carry all that secret stuff! I mean, really, Andy Granatelli does not make for a handsome poster boy, although he was very successful selling STP snake oil.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    "although he was very successful selling STP snake oil. "

    Man, now I can't get "STP - it's the racers' edge" jingle out of my mind - thanks a lot! :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you've ever had to rebuild an engine that was previously loaded with STP, you'd never get it out of your mind either! Man, I hate that stuff--caused me so much disgusting work. I'd run across the street to knock it out of someone's hand, I would. :P
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    And it's gotten a new life as a ZDDP additive for older engines - just can't kill it! :sick:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's like mass hypnosis....."do you SEE it?" "Yes, NOW I see it..."

    And then it's real to everyone.

    STP was a brilliant idea, and like most brilliant money-makers, what it did was offer a solution for a problem that didn't exist.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited November 2011
    Nobody's "attacking" the car, just the marketing. They didn't sell the car properly. They didn't fully understand their own product. Here are some examples of what I mean. People weren't going to buy Studebakers to "go racing". That's crazy.

    There is nothing about that advertisement that indicates that an Avanti should be raced on a race track. Studebaker was promoting a performance image because the economy image was not working. Ten years earlier (1953) Studebaker promoted efficient economy cars and nearly went
    broke.

    The Avanti was a fast, exciting car car on the open roads and the interstate highways that could easily top 100 m.ph. That is why we are still talking about it. There were some years when the Ford Thunderbird was fast and exciting, but does not have much of a racing history either.

    Now HERE is a better idea---marketing to women:

    The marketing of the Avanti to women would have made no difference because Studebaker did not have enough cars to sell until it was too late. Studebaker had more marketing than Avantis.

    At this site of the rich and famous there are twenty men but only two women who owned Avantis. The two women are Barbara Walters and Shirley Bassey (Note: Alice Cooper is a man).
    http://wizbangpop.com/2009/07/09/cars-of-the-stars-the-great-studebaker-avanti.p- - - hp

    As one who has attended Studebaker meets for more than 40 years, I cannot remember a single woman who owned and operated an Avanti. Women usually own Larks or pick-up trucks. They could care less about the Avanti. It never was a type of car that appealed to women.

    I would be surprised if anyone can find advertisements where a 1960s Corvette, Pontiac GTO, Olds 442 or Dodge Charger was marketed to women. Any examples? Most women did not care about high performance cars in the 1960s. If the car had an automatic transmission and power steering, that was good enough.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    edited November 2011
    "I would be surprised if anyone can find advertisements where a 1960s Corvette, Pontiac GTO, Olds 442 or Dodge Charger was marketed to women."

    Do you put the Avanti in that group of cars (assuming you mean a Charger hemi/big block, plenty of plain Chargers got sold to women)? I don't.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    I think you're missing my point. The Avanti should have been marketed *like* the T-Bird---for comfort, style and "passing power", not as a sports car. Typical Studebaker buyers didn't care how fast Andy Granatelli went, in my opinion, or how fast any Studebaker went.

    "Know Thy Audience" in other words. Reliability, good gas mileage, nice styling. That's what they wanted. Not a sports car, not a "muscle car".
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited November 2011
    Don't think so. Different body, roll up windows, new grille, dash, windshield, steering.

    Maybe some small mechanical parts would fit.


    Is it not the same chassis? I know a '62 Corvette still had kingpins, like a '53.

    A '63 Hawk had many different pieces of sheetmetal than a '53, different dash, grille, most glass, much-thicker gauge in the frame and additional crossmembers, and improved brakes. Also, if so equipped, the added benefits of disk brakes were offered, along with a three-speed automatic with "PRND21" quadrant, while cars like the Riv still had "PNDLR" and drum brakes. Consider the Lark, and the steering was new (Saginaw starting in '61) and a different length wheelbase to boot from a '53 sedan. Not a single piece of sheetmetal or glass will interchange between a '53 sedan and a '63 Lark. '63 Lark NOS parts are plentiful--'53 parts are not.
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  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    edited November 2011
    Do you put the Avanti in that group of cars (assuming you mean a Charger hemi/big block, plenty of plain Chargers got sold to women)? I don't.

    I never saw ANY high performance car of the 1960s era marketed to women. I just happened to mention the Dodge Charger as an example of one that was not marketed to women.

    Why would you have to specify a particular type of Charger to compare to an Avanti? The first generation Dodge Charger was a Dodge Coronet fastback with hidden headlights that sometimes froze open or shut in the winter. http://www.amcarguide.com/muscle-cars/dodge-charger-history-1964-2009/

    Unlike the Avanti, the Charger was offered with a six-cylinder motor. Women may have liked that model and it may have been marketed to them just as Zsa Zsa Gabor made commercials for the Studebaker Lark. After Dodge copied the Avanti coke-bottle shape in 1968, it looked much better.

    Well known automotive writer Dan Jedlick believes that the Avanti was a high performance car where he writes here. http://www.danjedlicka.com/classic_cars/studebaker_avanti.html says this

    The Avanti had advanced safety features, when no U.S. automaker particularly gave a darn about safety. Such features included a built-in roll bar, padded interior and door latches that became structural body members when closed.

    Performance? An Avanti with a supercharged V-8 was one of the fastest 1960s autos. A supercharged model hit 168 mph, while a modified version reached 196 mph--a staggering speed for a 1960s production street car. Some 29 Bonneville speed records were smashed by a supercharged Avanti.

    Safety? The Avanti (Italian for "forward") was the first mass-produced fiberglass-body four-passenger American car. It also was the first such car to use caliper-style disc brakes.

    Sexy? James Bond author Ian Fleming ordered a black Avanti and shipped it to foreign countries he visited outside his native England. Ricky Nelson, the second most popular (behind Elvis) rock and roll singer of the late 1950s and early 1960s, also owned an Avanti (which I drove one evening in the 1980s because it was for sale at a Ft. Lauderdale exotic car dealer). In short, the Avanti was a modern masterpiece.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2011
    This is just stacking the deck with the rare R3 specs, which is not representative of the "real" car. I mean, let's play fair here.

    The "real" R2 had a theoretical top speed of 139 mph, so an actual of probably about what... 120? Maybe 130 with 3.07 gearing, if you have the room to reach that. Not too shabby at all for 1963 but it's not a hand-built, bored out, modified R3 (of which only 9 were made).

    If people who bought an R2 were expecting the hype of the R3 ads, well, then, that could explain disappointing sales maybe?

    I've driven plenty of Avantis---believe me, they aren't supercars. Good strong V8 power, but nothing exceptional, at least not by my standards for 60s muscle. 0-60 in about 7.5 seconds (again not shabby for the 1960s) There were any number of production cars faster in the 1/4 mile and 0-60. It was probably about as fast as a Plymouth 340 in a similar body size/weight.

    But it had a number of meritorious features---disk brakes, built in roll bar, rev limiter, shift-able automatic....this is all very cool stuff for 1963.

    Maybe this comment sums up the failure of the Avanti to sell:

    " It was an instant love-or-hate design. Though it had captured the title of 'fastest production car in America' (claimed by the R3, not the R2) it failed to generate sales. The styling of the vehicle was too much for buyers to bare." --Daniel Vaughn for ConceptCarz

    So okay...controversial styling...marketing that didn't stimulate interest in the right places...lack of capitalization...union blues....they all contribute to the demise of this interesting car.
  • jljacjljac Member Posts: 649
    "Know Thy Audience" in other words. Reliability, good gas mileage, nice styling. That's what they wanted. Not a sports car, not a "muscle car".

    You keep using terms Studebaker never used, setting up "straw men" and then knocking them down. Studebaker never said the Avanti was a "sports car," "muscle car" or "Studebaker's Corvette." They called it a personal luxury car and sometimes a GT. It is a car you can drive fast for long distances.

    The only car fiberglass car that was comparable at the time was the Corvette, so the Avanti sometimes got compared that way, just as the Camaro was Chevrolet's "pony car" answer to the Mustang. Studebaker wanted to wanted to send the message that some Studebakers could go very fast - - -not just for the first two blocks and not just around in a circle.

    The 1963 Cadillac does not look like anything that was built ten years later. It still had the big chrome grille on the front, quad headlights and fins on the rear. The 1974 Firebird that James Garner drove in the Rockford files does look like the Avanti, as do many other cars that came later. If Studebaker made the boring car that Packard fans wanted to see, we would not still be talking about it.
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