Postwar Studebakers

texases

I'll believe it (demolition) when I see it, it's crazy expensive and this guy doesn't seem to have two dimes to rub together.

uplanderguy

I've been at the Packard plant in '87 and '92. The neighborhood was scary then and I can't believe it's improved since. There is no way I'd go down that way by myself. Back then, there were huge old houses on East Grand Boulevard that were boarded up, and a cheesy "Packard Motel" across the street from the place then. South Bend's south side may not be paradise, but I don't worry about driving around there, and Stude buffs are lucky that the old Administration Building is in amazingly original condition inside...woodwork, marble, door handles with "S" on them, etc.

A couple years ago, there was a fuzzy (thankfully) video on the 'net of an adult video made on the roof of the Packard plant, including superhero costumes. Hooboy.

jljac

Packard = Cadillac
Hudson = Buick
Nash = Pontiac-Olds
Studebaker = Chevrolet

I disagree with putting Studebaker low price end of the line up above, the most obvious reason being that at the time of the merger in 1954, Studebaker was the only independent automaker with an ohv. V-8 engine. Why would the only independent automaker with the V-8 be in the low
price field?

Studebaker historically sold medium priced cars - in the 1930s and early 40s. the President was comparable to the Buick price range and the Commander was comparable to Oldsmobile. Both of these Studebakers had straight 8 engines. The Champion of 1939 was a smaller economy car but
Studebaker made it the same size as the Commander in 1951, which then made the Champion L-head six cylinder motor under powered for a vehicle that size. Studebaker sold 83,458 V-8s vs 50,368 six cylinder motors in 1955 and also sold more V-8s than 6 cylinder cars in 1956.

Nash, under its President George Mason went in the opposite direction. It concentrated on the low-price field with the 1950 Nash Rambler (the first modern compact car) and also the Statesman. It concentrated on six cylinder engines and did not bother developing its own V-8 until George Mason was gone and George Romney was in charge. That happened midway through the 1956 model year when Nash/Rambler/AMC it quit buying the Packard ohv. V-8 for the Hudson and built its own ohv. V-8. They only built their own V-8 at that time because Packard engines were too expensive and heavy and were sold to AMC with lower compression head gaskets so that the Packard V-8 could claim more horsepower than the Hudson V-8, although the engines were the same.

In 1954, Studebaker would have been matched against Pontiac-Oldsmobile, but a better comparsion of the line up which resulted from a merger of the independent automakers would have been with Chrysler, not GM.

Packard vs. Chrysler / Hudson vs. De Soto/ Studebaker & trucks vs. Dodge & trucks/ and Nash vs. Plymouth

jljac

Excuse me, but doesn't the discussion about the demolition of the Packard auto plant belong over at the Packard forum?

There IS a Packard forum here at Edmunds, but it only has 160 posts and the last one was made in August 2009. Studebaker discussions have often gotten transferred here to the Studebaker forum, so I think that Packard discussions should be transferred over there.

The Packard forum looks abandoned, (like the auto plant) and I would not want the Studebaker forum to be blamed for putting the Packard forum out of business. It could happen.

uplanderguy

I know you're just being a wag, JL!

jljac

I know you're just being a wag, JL!

Yes, I was just making a joke because Studebaker fans get banished here when defending our favorite car but nobody here gets sent anywhere else.

Trivia question: What car was known as "the Pregnant Elephant"? (The answer is NOT the Avanti)

Here is a very good web site about the ruins of Detroit. I have chosen the index of industrial ruins because the auto factories are grouped there, but there is so much more at that site.

http://www.detroityes.com/toc.htm#Industrial

Click on the auto plant you want to see and keep clicking on the arrow that says "Detour" to see more of the same plant

fintail

The bathtub 48-50 Packard had that name.

Related, the 29 Buick with its subtle curves also had a "pregnant" nickname.

uplanderguy

Here are some photos taken in 2007 (not by me) of the interior of the former Studebaker Administration Building in South Bend:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/559623639SpepHC?start=24

fintail

It's a shame all the monuments of the glory years of American industry aren't so well preserved.

uplanderguy

...right up to the wheel. I think these are a little wider than what came on '63 Stude cars and on M-B cars of the same era:

http://www.remarkablecars.com/main/studebaker/1963-studebaker-lark.jpg

I've seen this car for decades at the Studebaker National Museum--this pic is from the old museum which was a Stude dealer, in downtown South Bend. This car is a basic model ("Regal") but is in extraordinary original condition...the pinstriped cloth 50/50 front seats are in amazing shape.

In four-doors, a '63 is my favorite Studebaker. I love the formal cut of the rear door, which reminds me of a '75 Seville or even more so, '77 GM full-size four-doors. I can't think of other cars that have a similar rear door "cut" as this.

fintail

Those are very similar yes. I have noticed on some, the white part starts at the wheel, touching it. That Stude really has a fintail profile to it as well - hard to be a coincidence. I was thinking the same about the rear door too, big resemblance to a 77 Impala/Caprice.

Here's soccer star Pele with his fintail, not sure if the tires are OEM, but the car looks pretty new:



Here's a modern restoration with wide whites - tires look similar to what I see in old literature, but funny as this is a lowline car which likely would not have had whitewalls when new:

- the tires have been reproduced as radials.

Small pic, but this is the look I want for my car:

uplanderguy

What year did they stop selling fintails in the 'States? I know the one pic has side marker lights, which would make it a '68 or later.

uplanderguy

One other thing I like about those later Larks, is their big wheel openings, front and rear. Look at a Chevy II, Falcon, or Valiant of that vintage (which the Lark was priced against), and they all have small wheel openings with a lot of sheetmetal above them...mostly in the rear.

fintail

1968 was the last model year of fintails - all lower-mid range carb and diesel cars, no FI fintails since 1965. I think 1968 cars might actually be 1967 production as the replacement car was in full swing for 68.

uplanderguy

Starts at about 4:08 in the video. I do think the wide whites are criminal, though!

http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/Video/Hagerty-Classic-Car-- - TV?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=HCCTV&utm_campa- - ign=Episode22

jljac

I do think the wide whites are criminal, though!

I agree 100% Those tires pre-date the car by about 10 years. This guy probably would have hung fuzzy dice from the rear view mirror too if was not located so low. Some of the early photos of the Avanti in 1962 had wide whitewall fires, but they were not that wide.

The one redeeming feature of the video is the scene from the back seat looking forward to the instruments. That brought back memories. The Avantis look especially good at night when all those gauges and overhead rocker switches are illuminated in red. You can tell that Sherwood Egbert loved airplanes.

jljac

Sorry if someone posted this already but I just came across it from February 15th. It is about one of the Anantis that was used as a Sears Allstate promotional car. http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/02/15/hemmings-find-of-the-day-1964-stud- - ebaker-avanti/

I still have to sign into this site every time and do not know if this message will post. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

uplanderguy

I had seen that post on the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum...what an original Avanti.

That 'Avanti Red' reminds me of Honduras Maroon on '62 Corvettes and whatever they called the color on '64 Eldorados.

I've said this before, but I wish they'd have put an emblem or small nameplate on the front fender of R1's, like they did R2's. My eyes are always drawn there and it looks like something is missing!

That said, a beautiful, original car, inside and out, and no foolishness like a two-piece rear window. Disc brakes and an automatic that can be shifted manually through three forward speeds. Something not seen on Corvettes or Buick Rivieras of that period..and I grew up a GM guy.

berri

The Avanti did have a nice IP, as did the Hawk GT.

uplanderguy

Barry Bostwick shows up at a regional Studebaker Drivers' Club function:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?59970-Barry-Bostwick-drive- s-a-Hawk!-And-more-Petersen-meet-pix&highlight=Bostwick

His Gran Turismo Hawk looks sharp, and I just love the '56 Sky Hawk right below it. I like Sky Hawks and they're rarely seen...fewer made than Golden Hawks, no fins, hardtop body, Stude 289 which has less "fussiness" shall we say, than the Packard V8 used in that year's Golden Hawk.

jljac

I usually attend the annual February meet at the Petersen Auto Museum, but I missed it this year. Last time I was there, they had Dick Van [non-permissible content removed]'s Avanti on display and it looked just like the one I owned. . .white with burgandy red interrior.

The Petersen Museum is worth seeing if you are in LA. They took the oldest gas station in LA (at that time) and were supposed to rebuild it there after a developer bought the lot and applied for a permit to have it demolished. I don't know if that happened or not. I took this photo at the orignial location around 2003.

uplanderguy

I have to admit, I just love this wagon. Rare and unusual compared to the Chevelles and Mustangs one always sees at cruise-ins. This is a V8 with stick and a fixed-roof version...a low-line Commander but in remarkable original condition, both inside and out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/STUDEBAKER-WAGONAIRE-UNRESTORED-HISTORICAL-PRESER- VATION-/180835792035?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a1aa734a3

Very nice. For some reason, this unassuming little wagon has intrigued me more than most Studebakers on eBay in the past few months.

berri

I always kind of liked the mid fifties Conestoga wagons including the 4 door. There was something a bit different about them that kind of caught my eye.

fintail

I like nice unrestored cars like that, true survivors. Not cheap, but they are only original once, and that one looks like it has no needs - it would cost a lot to make a wreck that nice. Not a bad deal for an enthusiast.

imidazol97

My Classic Hemmings for May came and I see a nice article about a 1958 Scottsman 4-door. It's green (was there any other color?). Spartan. I remember those.

I didn't remember they were available in station wagon and 2-door as well.

jljac

I didn't remember they were available in station wagon and 2-door as well.

Studebaker had a Scotsman pick-up truck too. It was so "Spartan" that they did not even include a door on the glovebox. It was probably the least expensive (and/or cheapest) pick-up truck of that era.

uplanderguy

I even thought that Scotsman cars had painted bumpers, although the one in the article has chrome bumpers. My hometown Stude dealer said he sold five of them new to the Bessemer and Lake Erie Railroad down the street from his garage, as Company cars for the railroad executives and that they weren't too fond of such a strippo car! He also told me his area 'road man' retired and bought as his last new Studebaker, a Scotsman. The Stude dealers in the area asked his son what he'd like for a retirement gift, as the dealers were throwing a party for him. The son said that he'd have liked to buy a more expensive Stude, so if they could pitch in on some accessories for his Scotsman, he'd like that. That's what his dealers did, and he was pleased.

uplanderguy

Lots of Studebakers in magazines on the newsstand right now. Besides the Scotsman, Hemmings Muscle Car and Motor Trend Classic both have Stude articles...one on a white, supercharged '63 Lark Daytona Wagonaire, and the other on a black '62 Lark Regal convertible.

omarman

I even thought that Scotsman cars had painted bumpers, although the one in the article has chrome bumpers.

Maybe it was an option? I recall that when my cousin ordered his new Bronco in '78 he skipped the chrome option because he liked the look of the base level black bumper. He also didn't order a back seat which he later regretted!

Even now I like it when car makers offer a basic, no-frill sedan as an option for buyers who would otherwise be shopping used cars. Nissan did a good job with the Versa, although I've never driven one.

jljac

I even thought that Scotsman cars had painted bumpers, although the one in the article has chrome bumpers.

I never saw a Studebaker of the post-war era with painted bumpers and do not believe that they were available. The Scotsman was infamous for having painted hub caps (or wheel covers), but MB had those too. Before the Scotsman, the cheapest model of Studebaker you could buy was a "business coupe" which had no back seat and a shorter roof.

I believe that America did not want small cars from the end of WWII until 1957 because Ford and GM were selling full size cars for approximately the same price, thanks to the Henry Ford II sales "Blitz" of 1953. In that era, the following small cars failed. . .Willy's Aero, Henry J. (aka. Sears Allstate), Crosley and the Hudson Jet. Only the Nash Metropolitan had limited sales success.

By 1956, Studebaker quit building the smaller Champion and Nash quit building the Rambler. But in 1957, Nash gave the Rambler a second chance as the Rambler American and Studebaker followed with the Scotsman. When Studebaker introduced the Lark in 1959 and made a profit, the Big Three automakers entered the "compact" car market.

texases

When I googled Studebaker Scotsman pickup, quite a few have painted bumpers, usually (but not always) white.

lemko

Heck, even today's "plane-Janes" are quite luxurious compared to strippo cars of the past. You'll never see a modern strippo base car as spartan as a Scotsman today.

omarman

Compared to a Scotsman, a Versa S 1.6 would be like a space ship! And $1776 in 1958 money would be nearly $14K in 2012. I found a few (very few) Versa S 1.6 sedans under $14K by searching local dealer inventories. Standard equipment now includes A/C and AM/FM/CD player plus all the safety features nobody had in the 50s. Studebaker had a good thing going with the Scotsman but it's true that 2012 money buys much more car.

bhill2

The question of painted vs. chrome bumpers on Scotsmans (Scotsmen?) interested me enough that I did a little research (when you are the family car freak you get a lot of car books as presents.) I cannot find any reference to the Scotsman cars having painted bumpers, or chrome bumpers being an option. My conclusion is that the hubcaps were painted, but the bumpers were chrome.

uplanderguy

Something pointed out about the Scotsman in recent discussions on the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum, that I hadn't realized, is that it even only had the "Scotsman" nameplate on only the left side of the car!

uplanderguy

...has an eight-page article on the Studebaker National Museum that was built and opened in 2005 in South Bend, Indiana:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee285/studeq/newsgroup/museumcollectibleauto.- jpg?t=1332914663

That picture is actually the Archives Building across the street, which was restored from an old bar building and contains tons and tons of Studebaker and Packard documents, including blueprints and build sheets right up to the end. Something I think is very cool is that for model year 1960 and later Studes, you can find the name and address of the original owner.

jljac

That picture is actually the Archives Building across the street, which was restored from an old bar building. . . .

That neighborhood bar was a favorite hang-out of Stanley Covelski, who was originally named Kowalweski. My grandmother was born in a house at the NE Corner of Napier and Laurel street just a few blocks away and her sister (Veronica) used to supply the bar with home made pierogies (aka cheese blintzes) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi.

The house stayed in the family until aprx. 1988 and Covekski was a neighbor during the 1930s until the 1950s. The house is gone now (most of the houses on that block have been demolished).

My Uncle Walter (who married my Grandmother’s sister Harriet) walked to work at the Studebaker factory from that house and built motors until June 1964. The end of this article mentions that Covelkski lived on Napier Street. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Coveleski

You can see Covelski Stadium and what is left of the Studebaker Factory here. http://wiki.worldflicks.org/former_studebaker_auto_plant.html The local minor league team is the South Bend Silver Hawks.

Roll Studebaker. . . .roll!!!!!

uplanderguy

Thanks for all the 'hometown' information! I love pierogis and if you saw me, you'd be able to tell I've had a few in my life!

The Studebaker National Museum is having a "Polish Dinner" during the International Meet this year. We have tickets for it.

At the '02 SDC International Meet in South Bend, our family went to a Silver Hawks game at Coveleski Stadium. It was fun and inexpensive and right at the north end of the old Studebaker Corridor in town.

jljac

Pierogies were very popular in Catholic families for dinner on Fridays because they could not eat meat on that day of the week Many stores in South Bend once stocked dry cottage for making them. I can make them from scratch, but it takes a lot time and effort. To get that old time taste without the effort, I get Mrs. T’s and cook them with butter and onions in a pan and then eat them with small curd cottage cheese.

They are served at the stadium where the Pittsburgh Pirates play which also features The Great Pierogi Race which includes some amusing photos here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pierogi_Race and says this:

The promotion started in 1999 at Three Rivers Stadium, then the Pirates' home park, and at the time featured only three characters: Sauerkraut Saul, Cheese Chester, and the blue-capped Potato Pete. It quickly became a fan favorite, and beanbags in the likeness of the different characters are given to children at certain ballgames as a promotion. Jalapeño Hannah was added soon after the promotion began. A year or two after the Pirates moved to PNC Park, Oliver Onion was added and Potato Pete dropped, though Potato Pete continues to make occasional appearances.

The pierogies travel once a year to Miller Park to take on the Milwaukee Brewers' racing sausages (the inspiration for the Pirates' version of the promotion) when the Pirates play the Brewers, as well as to Nationals Park to take on the Washington Nationals' racing U.S. Presidents when the Pirates play the Nationals. Conversely, both the Brewers and Nationals bring their respective characters to PNC Park when they play in Pittsburgh.

uplanderguy

Saw this on the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum. It's a nice driver, non-original colors, last model year built in the U.S. Look at the "Drive Away Shipper" form obtained from the Studebaker National Museum in the first post, down at the bottom--it says "Tag for Filmways Inc.--Mr. Ed"! Add value? No, but pretty cool I think.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?60635-New-Guy-from-Trenton- - -Ohio-with-a-1964-Daytona-Wagonaire

fintail

Definitely worth watching some old shows to see if you can spot "your" car. No real value in the provenance, but huge cred at a Stude gathering for sure.

I like old cars in just about that condition - so you can drive them and not worry, but it still looks good.

uplanderguy

Somebody on that forum suggested he get an Ohio license plate that spells out "Wilbur". I like that!

fintail

Stude people would get it anyway :shades:

uplanderguy

Those of us who appreciate Studebakers (and there was never one in my family), are lucky that that kind of documentation exists for our cars. A decade or more ago, I was thumbing through '63 model year production order paperwork in South Bend and some of the notations were interesting...I remember one that said, "Tag for The Price is Right NYC", and another--a supercharged two-door Lark sedan--that said "Raffle Car Diocese of Chicago". I've seen one or two that said "Tag for Andy Granatelli".

jljac

Studebaker was very good about preserving its history. Of course you know this, but many of the old historical vehicles in the museum collection were from Studebaker's 100th anniversary in 1952 including the carriage that Lincoln rode in to Ford's Theatre the night he was assassinated.

fintail

It's amazing they were so detailed from new - I don't know if many others were similar.

Related to Stude, I know you can contact MB and get the original "birth certificate" for a car, including listing the original selling dealer. I already know that info for my cars, as they both have a ream of paperwork.

uplanderguy

That's cool that Benz has that info, too. Of the three Studes I've owned, only one came with any original paperwork, and that car was from my hometown. With my '63 Lark Daytona Skytop R-1, the build sheet from South Bend enabled me to determine the name of the original owner as it was notated that he picked the car up at the plant. I met him in 2010 at my home, but I've already told that story.

fintail

I know the name of the fintail's original owner, who kept every receipt and even made notes in the owners manual about things that bugged him (he didn't quite "get" the transmission). I think he was older then, so probably not around anymore. The dealer who delivered the car when new is still around, too, in a charming old style building

berri

I think Studebaker still has a following because if you are a baby boomer you probably remember some of their unique styles and knew someone that had one. My dad usually bought used cars and really liked the mid fifties Studebaker Hawks. Unfortunately, he had two tall, gangly kids and that coupe wouldn't work. To this day, I always think of him when I see one, and always spot and gravitate to one if its at an old car show. The mother of a good friend of mine when I was a kid had one of those early 50's Studebakers with the wraparound rear window. I think they were called something like Starlight coupes. Another friend's dad had one of those 50's suicide door 4 doors (yeah, they weren't just on Mercs from that era) which he used as a commuter car to work. Fun thinking back to those days sometimes. I feel lucky growing up in a period of interesting cars and great rock 'n roll. It also makes me realize that despite all of the changes and turmoil over time, America still is a great place and we are fortunate to live here.

imidazol97

>and great rock 'n roll.

Like the Rock and Roll Waltz by Kay Starr?
Elvis Presley before he became a legend?