Postwar Studebakers

jljac

There are places where I grew up that I believe, believe were Studentbaker dealers. They're not listed. Is there a way to verify if they actually were Studebaker stores?

Many public libraries keep old telephone books on file. Chose a year when you believe a Studebaker dealer was operating and look up auto dealers in the phone book for that year.

The Santa Monica public library also has Haines "criss-cross" reverse directories that are arranged by street addresses. If you know an address, you can go to a specific year (1963 for example) and see what person or business was listed at that location. You might be able to do this on the Internet without going to the library. http://www.haines.com/

lemko

Keenan Motors was located at Broad and Hunting Park in North Philly until the late 1970s when they beat a hasty retreat to Doylestown in the suburbs. I heard they used to sell Rolls-Royces at this location. This is an unusual place to sell Rolls-Royces and Mercedes as this neighborhood is pretty much a slum and was even worse in the late 1970s.

uplanderguy

I have seen that photo of Keenan Motors before. I love the billboard with the Lark Skytop in it. That's quite a varied used car lot out front, isn't it?

lemko

I can spot a few foreign rides - an MGA, a Porsche 356, a Ponton Mercedes, and what appears to be an Austin sedan.

fintail

Larks galore, T-Bird, Porsche roadster, MGA coupe, what looks like 3 pontons, has to be a fintail lurking somewhere...what an insane mix.

uplanderguy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Original-Indianapolis-500-Studebaker-Press-Kit-STP-- Sponsor-Goodyear-etc-/110818575204?_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3- DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6362821011471975722

To me, it's funny how they still use the Studebaker logo/TM when it had been over a year since a Studebaker automobile was built.

FWIW, I always liked the font Stude used in their logo, and the red/white/blue 'ying yang' emblem, that were used from '63 on. Seems contemporary by today's standards.

uplanderguy

I was reminded how much I love the optional ($72) broadcloth upholstery in the 1963 Cruiser. Overall, I like the '64's styling better on two-doors, but the '63 4-door to me has the greatest styling connection to a M-B, and the broadcloth upholstery just reaches out and grabs me. Page about halfways down here:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?9765-Broadcloth-Upholstery- &highlight=broadcloth

Friends of ours had living room furniture--a sectional sofa--in similar material and color. Just love it...and in a car that size, that level of seat trim was unusual back then.

texases

What do you think about this?

uplanderguy

Although it's not my nature, my personal feeling is the less said about that the better.

texases

At least it's good for a laugh. First lines on the web site:

"DISCLAIMER: Studebaker Motor Company is not yet able to produce vehicles, as we are in the planning stages. However, we are almost ready to sell Studebaker shirts and hats. "

These folks want to make CARS and they haven't figured out how to sell shirts and hats?? What's that take, $100? Sheesh... :sick:

fintail

Those concept renderings look like something out of a high school computer lab, too. I wonder how they got to use the name, surely someone must still own it.

uplanderguy

They managed to get the attention of Fox News yesterday:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/02/17/colorado-man-plots-return-studebaker/

Wonder if they'll have a prototype at the 48th international Studebaker Drivers' Club convention in South Bend this summer .

BTW, found out yesterday, there I will meet the two fellows from Australia who own my old '63 and '64 Daytonas. Also, my Stude dealer friend who sold the '64 new, will be there. I think it'll be neat to get his picture taken with the Australian gent who now owns it.

jljac

That is pretty old "news." Somebody sent me that hoax ad in 2010 and it has not changed much since then. The idea of powering a car with a V twin air-cooled motor that looks like a Harley Davidson mototcycle engine is not likely to work either. Air cooled motors in an enclosed space need some type of forced air cooling and are not configured the same as a motor that is designed to be outside in the cool air.

There is another ad about a future Studebaker that is a three-wheel APE car from India. Using the name " Studebaker" is an easy way to get attention.

texases

My understanding is the V-twin was for a motorcycle, to go along with the electric scooter, the gas scooter, and the car.

Nothing if not ambitious.

uplanderguy

I think one thing that differentiated Stude from other independents was their production of a truck line into the '64 model year. Here's a '62 Champ with the double-wall "P1" bed that I think is a good-looking truck:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?59295-Production-order-T-c- abs-amp-beds

jljac

Studebaker produced an amazing variety of vehicles, which makes the meets so interesting. If Studebaker never built passenger cars, quite a large Studebaker truck club could still exist. Too bad Studebaker did not put more effort into promoting and selling trucks. They were ahead of the most of the competition in 1949-50, but did not try to stay there. I have thought about buying this book several times and probably will soon. The back cover has photos worth seeing including a milk delivery truck http://www.amazon.com/Studebaker-Trucks-1941-1964-Photo-Archive/dp/1882256417#_

uplanderguy

I've thumbed through that book before, and it's full of great photos. One is in front of the showroom of Gezon Motors in Grand Rapids, MI, where an old friend's '56 Packard Caribbean was delivered new.

jljac

I think that it is an amazing story that for 45 years after Studebaker quit producing the Avanti, no less than four other companies built them or cars that looked like them including the replicas below.



The fact that 2,200 post Studebaker production Avantis were built and sold is an amazing story that has no equal in America auto manufacturing and is not something to be scoffed at as a failure. The only autos that had similar post-production success are various reproductions of VW and Porsches and perhaps the Ford Model A.

There was a time in America (after WWII) when you could order an American car from the factory, have it built with the colors and interior fabrics it just the way you wanted it and then go to the factory to meet the president and see it built or have it delivered to your home. Car
magazines compared it favorably it to performance cars built 25 years later.

I got to be there and see it happen and I was so lucky to be able to own a such a great car when was I only 19 years old that I could not have afforded if Studebaker had been a “success” and stayed in business.

Mr_Shiftright

I actually went to my friend's showroom since he just took in an Avanti on consignment. I wanted to see how the car looks to me in real life, not in photos, to see if my opinion has changed.

I have to say that the car still looks quite clunky to me from the front end, and has not aged well. The styling is....um....interesting...but it's very dated. It has neither the classic look of the past nor the flash and vitality of the 60s. Other styling cues similar to it that never panned out were the "wedge" designs of the 1980s and the "retro" craze of the late 90s/early 2000s IMO.

The Avanti will always remain controversial to collectors and I don't think it will ever have mainstream acceptance. It's one (of many) "love it or hate it" cars---like say the Delorean or the Pacer.

uplanderguy

Compare Avanti values to Pacers and get back to me on that one. Avantis were a darling of car critics, too...never heard that said about a Pacer.

jljac

Avantis were a darling of car critics, too... never heard that said about a Pacer.

I don't think you will find an Internet web site of that lists rich and famous people who were the proud owners of Pacers either. I remember one being in a Wayne's World movie, so maybe you could count Mike Myers. This site had been refurbished and updated nicely since I posted it last time. http://www.theavanti.com/celebrity.html

The Avanti might be a "love it or hate it" design, (as was the Chrysler Airflow and the coffin nose Cord) but enough people loved it to keep buying it and then cars that looked like it for nearly 50 years, and that story might not be over yet. The tan Avanti X I posted is owned and operated by a neighbor and was built in Mexico (2005 or 2007) with a Ford chassis.

uplanderguy

To be fair, I have no idea what DeLoreans sell for, but I know they have Citation 2.8 V6 engines...wow. Avantis were certified by the U.S.A.C. as the fastest production car from the factory at the time.

I'm one of those guys who think the '63 Corvette is waaayyy overrated. I think the split window is stupid--Buck Rogers-like. The car is covered with fake scoops and the hood has big blocks of chrome decoration. I actually like the '64 better.

Also, look head-on at a Stingray with the headlights up. I don't think anybody would be saying how timeless that look is.

texases

Deloreans had a 2.8l V6, but it was a Peugeot unit, OHC, but still pretty weak.

p.s. - anyone else notice the forum site being VERY cranky lately? Slow, 'site not found', that kind of thing?

uplanderguy

Yes, I have had issues with the board here all morning.

Thanks for the correction on the origin of the DeLorean engine. I'm guilty of pulling what makes me wrinkle my face up when someone asked me if my old Studebaker 289 was "made by Ford"! (i.e., not every 2.8 V6 was a GM engine!)

lemko

Shoot, I thought Deloreans ran on a Mr. Fusion reactor and came with a flux capacitor?

jljac

Deloreans had a 2.8l V6, but it was a Peugeot unit, OHC, but still pretty weak.

Delorean was a designer/engineer for Packard. When a car is designed by a former Packard engineer and powered by a French motor, it is predictable that won't be on the market very long. Deloran copied the idea of a gull-wing limited production sports car from Malcolm Bricklin any way. The Bricklin only lasted a few years too.

Very few limited production luxury performance cars last long. I can think of only one that did.

p.s. - anyone else notice the forum site being VERY cranky lately? Slow, 'site not found', that kind of thing?

I noticed that. Lately the Edumunds forum sites have been as unreliable as a Packard with an ultramatic transmission.

uplanderguy

Shoot, I thought Deloreans ran on a Mr. Fusion reactor and came with a flux capacitor?

Good one, Lemko!

uplanderguy

I might add one thing about Avantis...I think one styling area that everyone else utilized later was the long hood, short deck theme. In four-passenger cars, especially, that was mostly unheard of at the time of the Avanti's introduction in June '62. Studebaker Hawks utilized that styling concept from '56 on, but GM cars of that period (and I grew up a GM guy), were often short hood, long deck!

I'm also having a hard time recalling any other car out at the same time, that had curved side glass. Of course, a few years later, virtually every car did.

uplanderguy

I'm also having a hard time recalling any other car out at the same time, that had curved side glass. Of course, a few years later, virtually every car did.

I guess the '61 Lincoln Continental beat the Avanti to market with curved side glass, now that I think about it. That car was another 'less is more' car, styling-wise.

uplanderguy

...this lovely '63 Gran Turismo Hawk with 4-speed and Avanti power. Unusual to be Ermine White and not have a red interior...I like it the way it is here:

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/car-of-the-week/car-of-the-week-1963-studebaker-gt-- - hawk?et_mid=540565&rid=25286942

I'm trying to picture a lady who traded in a '51 Studebaker 4-door on this 4-speed Hawk, driving the Hawk.

The '63 Lark Daytona Skytop I sold last year was also Ermine White and had the same Avanti R1 engine and front fender "Avanti Powered" nameplates.

explorerx4

Uplanderguy, Just wanted to let you know I was in SB over the weekend and went to the Studebaker National Museum.
My wife and I really enjoyed it.

uplanderguy

Cool! The old Stude Museum was in a Stude dealership building downtown, and it had its charms (seemed like less wasted space than the current building); however, it was crumbling and of course was not climate-controlled, etc. Next door to the current museum is the Archives building, which has tons of archives of Studebaker and Packard.

Glad you enjoyed it.

jljac

This is posted as a new message because I cannot reply to the previous messages. This site has been unstable and unreilable over the past week or so. I liked the Old Cars Weekly article on the 1963 GT Hawk. It has the "Avanti Powered" badge on it too! Hard to believe that the basic car began as an experiment by Robert Bourke using a Land Cruiser frame in 1951, which gives it that classic long-wheel base look. The first image below does not show that very well because Herb had the trunk loaded down with luggage, tools and parts for the trip, which is why the rear end sits so low.

The new Studebaker Museum in South Bend is really great. Here is a good story Herb and Jeanne Ertel of Brea, California who drove their 1955 Studebaker Commander from Brea
California to the Studebaker International meet in South Bend in 2007.
http://auto.ocregister.com/2009/12/29/my-totally-hot-car-1955-studebaker-command- - - - - er/24609/19
The image below is also from that story.


The story does not mention that Herb’s Commander broke down on its way to South Bend, but that happened because Herb decided to play it safe for such a long trip by adding an electric fuel pump. Of course, that was the part that broke.

Herb passed away about two years ago, but we used to park our cars together at Studebaker meets. Both our cars were loaded with options, 259-cubic-inch V8, automatic transmission and power windows, front seat, brakes and steering, all of which came from the factory as original equipment. Air conditioning was not available for the coupes and hardtops that year (the air conditioning unit was located in the trunk back then), but Herb added more modern air conditioning to his car too.

uplanderguy

I remember that yellow and white '55 hardtop and I spoke to the owner of it at the Museum at the 2007 International meet. . I hadn't heard he had passed.

jljac

I remember that yellow and white '55 hardtop and I spoke to the owner of it at the Museum at the 2007 International meet. . I hadn't heard he had passed.

Herb was a great guy. To paraphrase Will Rodgers, "I never met a Studebaker owner with a Studebaker powered car I didn't like." I cannot say that about some Studebaker owners who have "Brand X" motors under the hood.

One year Herb showed up at the LaPalma Park annual Orange Empire Studebaker Meet with nothing but a frame on wheels. He announced that the following year, he would win the prize for most improved Studebaker, and that is exactly what he did when he showed up with his Yellow Commander the following year. He even took the automatic transmission apart and rebuilt it. There are some advantages to the old body-on-frame construction if you want to keep a car around for a long time.

Herb was the president of the Orange Empire Chapter of the SDC. I will always remember him. He would often greet me by saying. "Make sure you park your beautiful car next to mine."

explorerx4

That 'Different by Design' jingle was driving me a bit crazy (kind of like It's a Small World after all at Disney). Couldn't get it out of my head until I got closer to Gettysburg Address audio.

jljac

kind of like It's a Small World after all at Disney). Couldn't get it out of my head until I got closer to Gettysburg Address audio

I know exactly what you mean. I lived in Anaheim near Disneyland and took guests there often. I did not want to go in Small World because that tune would be stuck in my head for days. It was like a flu virus. I tried to get rid of it at the Pirates of the Carribean (Yo ho,Yo ho, a pirates life for me) but that did not always work and the cure was worse than the ailment.

Other songs that get stuck in my head are Beat It by Michael Jackson, You May Be Right and Tell Her About It by Billy Joel and Paul McCartney singing All Things Must Pass from a Concert for George. That one really gives me the blues.

uplanderguy

That 'Different by Design' jingle was driving me a bit crazy (kind of like It's a Small World after all at Disney). Couldn't get it out of my head until I got closer to Gettysburg Address audio.

So true! I know exactly what you mean! I like the slogan 'Different by Design' (fit their '64 lineup perfectly I think). Hope you don't mind, but I forwarded your comment to the Archivist at the museum whom I know. His office is by the 'body drop' in the building and outside the main display area on the ground floor. I bet he knows what you mean too!

jljac

Is this the "Different by Design" tune you are speaking of? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQCwJJA17k (Nice scenes of a 1964 Avanti in Chicago)

If not. please direct me to a sound clip. There should be one on YouTube.

uplanderguy

No, that's not it (although I own and love that 25-minute video of the '64's that was sent to dealers).

The tune goes "The Studie is a beauty 'cause it's different by design", again and again! I'm guessing it was a TV commercial but I can't find it online.

explorerx4

I searched for hours for that jingle yesterday, but best I could do was a snippet in a video related to the museum.
Keep remembering little things. The day before, I got up @2am, the trip took 13 1/2 hours (horrible weather), took our daughter and friends out to dinner, then went to a hockey game. Got back to the hotel about midnight.
Anyways, I just remembered one of the cars in the museum belongs to someone from our town, all the way back here in Connecticut!

uplanderguy

I've always liked this '62 Lark magazine ad. I think the M-B influence is really evident here.

http://www.adclassix.com/images/62larkline.jpg

I just got back from York, PA last night from a big annual Studebaker Drivers' Club event and swap meet which was just what I needed to shake the winter blahs. They raffled off a beautiful '55 Speedster and there was a red '63 Lark Daytona Hardtop with supercharger and automatic that was nice, not perfect, and numbers matched as he had the production order paperwork on display. He was asking $26K and I have to believe it went home with him at that price. Same guy also had a stunning, perfect-looking restoration of the same year and model car but with 4-speed, displayed inside...not for sale.

fintail

Someone was definitely aiming for a corporate look with Stude's import business.

jljac

I like the '62 Larks and it seemed that Sherwood Egbert was getting Studebaker back on the right track in 1962 with the Larks and the first GT Hawk. Nice advertisement too. Things would have been better without the UAW strike in February 1962 when Sherwood got into a fight with a painter he caught sleeping on the job when he was not painting (and the painter insisted that it was his right to do so when he was not actually painting cars).

I wish that Studebaker would have skipped the 1963 model year and proceeded to the 1964s. The 1963s did not look much different than the 1962s but had many mechanical improvements, most notably disc brakes, suspended brake (& clutch) pedals, the nice fully padded dash board and the Wagonaire sliding roof station wagon.

This web site has been a problem for the past two weeks. I must repeatedly sign in from the same computer. It seems that somebody fixed something that wasn't broke.

berri

Studebaker made a valiant fight in th early sixties with what little money they had, but it was over even if they had come out with a home run vehicle. They were undercapitalized with a high cost structure and militant union. AMC had a little more dough and was able to limp on into the sixties. They bought some extra time with Jeep and then Renault, but with the influx of Asian makes down the road they weren't gonna make it long term either. I think Studebaker makes an interesting business case study though in the late 50's and early 60's and I sure admire some of their efforts to survive.

uplanderguy

I had no family members with a Studebaker, but I always admired what they did with what they had in the early '60's...especially the '63 and '64 model years, even with the truck and Lark lines. IMHO, they were way more interesting than AMC's in the same years.

jljac

I am a big fan of Studebakers, but I have to admit that AMC did things right in the late 1950s and early 1960s when they were competing with Plymouth as the third best selling car in America and giving Chrysler a run for the title as the third member of the Big Three. They put a lot of effort into station wagons (including one-piece rear doors with roll down windows) and they had a modern 327 cu.in. V-8 and a ohv. 6 cylinder motor that put out 127 horsepower. The Studebaker Skybolt 6 could not compete with that.

In 1963, Motor Trend gave the Car of the Year award to the entire AMC line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Trend_Car_of_the_Year

http://amcrc.com/oct05feature.html

None of this would have been possible if George Romney had not put the small Nash Rambler back into production in 1958 as the Rambler American still with the "obsolete" 6 cylinder flathead motor. The 1950 Nash Rambler was born too soon because America was not ready for compact cars, but eight years later (in the year of the Edsel) they were ready to try compact cars again and it worked. Had it not worked, nobody would have heard of Mitt Romney. Decisions made long ago still influence events today

lemko

Wonder what American Motors would've been like if it was Packard-Hudson-Nash-Studebaker instead of just Nash-Hudson. Would've they become a force with which to be reckoned or would've the whole thing collapsed sooner? I'd see it like this analogous to GM:

Packard = Cadillac
Hudson = Buick
Nash = Pontiac-Olds
Studebaker = Chevrolet

Plus, Studebaker had trucks.

berri

That's actually an interesting question. It would have required a significant effort to eradicate duplicative labor and overhead. It would also have required keeping from producing duplicative "Hashes". If acheived (and it would have been easier said than done) it may have actually had some promise. Remember that after the initial success of Chrysler's forward look 57/58's the quality problems really hurt the brand. Then they had some, let's just say "out there" styling in the early 60's. So I think Mopar might have been vulnerable to a successful conglomeration of the independents. As the Asians came in during the 70's and 80's the new company would have had a possible advantage of the Rambler and Studebaker small car reputation, and the rise in trucks could have been met byStudebaker and Jeep and SUV's by Wagoneer. On the minus side, they didn't really have a strong big car position to take on GM and Ford during the 60's and 70's. Also, I think all of them had pretty bad balance sheets and fixed cost structures, and back in those days a BK Chapter 11 to restructure might not have been accepted by the consumers. Kind of fun to speculate!

lemko

Packard Motor Car Plant