I'm a bit late on this post, but I'll add my data point in anyway. I have the same experience as drolds. I use a gps which gives me a very accurate speed indication in real time. My LS-8 Sport speedometer is very accurate with 0-1 mph error up to about 40; then the error grows to a maximum of 2 mph from 60 on up. I don't recall checking the speedometer against the gps at speeds greater than 80, but at an indicated 80 the gps reports about 78-79 mph.
I agree with Packv12. It's time LM take the lead and bring out the LS V-8 with the Tremec, as this combo has already been prototyped. The V-6 with Getrag has not met market expectations. This has been partly because of engine power and partly because of the lack of an overdrive in the Getrag, compromising cruise gearing. The V-6 Manual was designed for Europe. It's time a new LS Manual was designed for America. V-8 power and an American Tremec with 6 speeds with a .7 overdrive. This would enable a 3:58 rear ratio and lower cruise rpms. This would fulfill the promise and potential of a manual - better acceleration AND gas mileage. And for way under 40k.
I bought my 2000 LS on the "X" plan, and I agree that some "shrewd" bargaining MIGHT have gotten the same price. However, that bargaining might have taken hours, whereas the "X" deal took all of 30 seconds. The discount was close to $3900 on my well optioned car. I also have snow tires on my car. Although the jet stream kept the Rochester, NY area pretty snow free this year, we had our usual 9-10 feet last year, and the car did well.
is (IIRC) 4% over the A-plan price and usually fairly close to invoice. I priced out a couple of vehicles just for grins when I found out I was eligible. Definitely a good deal without haggling but I don't think the dealers are obligated to participate. And at the time I think the Superduty trucks and a few others were excluded (like Aston Martin - that explains why I didn't get the V12 Vantage. :-)
Jag seems to have changed their A, Z, X pricing and now offer, in effect, a factory rebate on top of any other rebates or deals. But it doesn't eliminate the haggling.
BTW - if you're interested in getting a decent price on an ordered vehicle talk to the fleet sales dept. - most dealerships have one. They can usually order anything you want and usually for a few hundred over invoice without haggling. They can also sell off the lot but then they're competing with the regular salesmen and the price may be higher.
I just visited my brother who has owned a '93 318i for about 5 years now. The car was "still in the shop" after a week stay. He has had the head gasket blow, lots of wheel bearing, ball joint, clutch, electrical (fan), etc. repairs over the past couple years.
If you can believe this... the last 2 times that he has had the car in the shop(actually 2 different shops), they've taken it for a test drive and accidentally not shut the hood, but the safety catch must not have been working either, because the hood flew up while they were driving. This time, the windshield was smashed. (YIKES!)
My sister-in-law says that the car isn't "nickel and diming" them anymore- it is "thousand-dollaring" them to death!
Of course, my '92 conti is any cheaper to keep on the road...
Maybe I misunderstood and am being overly sensitive, but I know many people quote the famous line from Shakespeare: "First let's kill all the lawyers!", but they fail to note that this was the necessary preamble to a plan they had in mind to take away every ones rights. First they had to off those who dedicate themselves to protecting others rights. I know we have some bad apples, but I am proud to be a lawyer. There are some things I have done in my life that I am not entirely proud of, but none of them involve my career as a lawyer.
Maybe I missed it, but what was the point of the comment in the first place?
The next time you are in trouble, call a city councilman or state legislator to help you. Stay away from those darned lawyers.
I can relate to all of your brothers early 318 E36 issues. Have him go to www.unofficialbmw.com.
All of the problems you note above are common. Front ball joints and control arm bushings are common. Both require special tools to replace, but make a world of difference when they are replaced. They need replacing about 60,000 miles or so, depending on driving style and roads. The fan isnt electric..Im pretty sure it uses a viscous fan clutch, which also wears out after awhile.
Oh yeah...it wasnt his head gasket that blew...It was his profile gasket. If he goes to Yahoo and does a search on "timing case profile gasket", he will see a very interesting writeup on this issue by a guy who knew all too well about it. ;-)
Joe166 - don't take the lawyer quips personally. You have to admit - there's more than a few unscrupulous people in your profession that give the entire profession a bad rep - sort of like car salesmen. (Ambulance chasers??). That said, I'm reminded of this story......
There is a fence between heaven and hell and God is really fed up with the devil not keeping his side of the fence clean. So he gives the devil a final warning: "Clean up your side of the fence by tomorrow or I'll sue you!". The devil pauses, grins and says "Where will YOU find a lawyer?"
Cannot agree more with the interest in a 6 speed V8. I know this topic has been pretty worn out, but LM needs to look at the buzz the G35 and CTS are generating. I attended the Dallas autoshow this weekend. Both the G35 and the CTS had huge crowds. There were 2 LS's to sit in, and no one was looking at them. With the introduction of the LS, LM clearly reinvigorated the market for RWD sports sedans. Looks to me like they are willing to cede the leadership to others. LM could have ensured that the CTS and G35 came up short in head to head reviews and comparisons, but they missed the opportunity.
Charter Member LLSOWWAV8WASS (Lincoln LS Owners Who Want A V8 With a Six Speed)
We can't forget the fact that the G35 and CTS are both 2003 models AND that neither of them is available with either a 6-speed manual OR a V8. While the 6-speed is rumored for the Infiniti, it's not there yet, and I'd be surprised if either car is ever fitted with a V8.
Although it's true that both these cars will have a several-month head start on the '03 LS, I'm willing to bet that a head-to-head comparison among the '03 models will find the LS acquitting itself quite well. If we're going to compare current models to previous-year models, then we should compare the '02 LS to the Catera and the I30.
I don't personally see any ceding of leadership, and I didn't even go to Mania 3.
I don't think so, either. Lincoln has been in this market for three years now; these other guys are just arriving. That the LS hasn't undergone any significant changes (yet) is common practice in the industry. That hardly means they're sitting still.
I can't help but notice that the new entries into the RWD luxury sport field are a half-step below the LS in terms of size, price, and maybe luxury amenities. This is not to say they are automatically inferior cars, and there must be a marketing reason behind it, but nobody seems to be going directly after the LS. I thought Cadillac at least would go more head-to-head. I guess they figure the CTS fits in neatly beneath the Seville in their line.
Everyone seems to be gunning for the 3-series, although the CTS is bigger. But it's not as large as the LS. So - has anyone heard anything else about the "baby LS" since mania 1? Did it get axed in the cost cutting or cancelled outright? Or just laying low?
Re: "The next time you are in trouble, call a city councilman or state legislator to help you." Here in California, most council members and most all legislators ARE lawyers.
The only thing I've seen recently is that the planned "large car" platform that was to be used by future big Lincolns was axed in the last round cost-cutting; I haven't seen any recent mention of the smaller LS. If the article is accurate, the redesigned '05 LS and the hot-rod (which I assume will be an '06 model) are the only ones in the near-term pipeline.
I didn't mean to suggest that I don't think the '02 LS is competitive with the '03 CTS and '03 G35--I think the LS is HIGHLY competitive with both those cars. I haven't driven either of them, and haven't seen the G35 in person yet, so I can't compare them directly. On paper, though, the '02 LS should certainly hold its own, and remains the only choice for someone who wants a rear-drive V8 sport sedan in this price range.
I am, however, eagerly anticipating the obvious comparison test pitting the '03 LS against the G35 and the CTS--the car mags this fall will be jumping all over each other to get this test onto the newsstand. Such a comparo should prove to be VERY interesting!
The 2003 year will have a lot of good/excellent cars from Europe and Japan that will leap ahead of the LS. Japan knows how to listen to it customers and response quick as to stay ahead and lead.
The 2001 LS should have had the 25 horses or more added after this townhall LS group kept asking for more power and manual tranny when they purchased the 2000 model car. Instead Lincoln waited so that they will be playing catch-up from now on! Waiting until until 2003 was a mistake. By 2003 the LS should have had a minimum the Cobra SVT 4.6 V8 with the manual or the Jag S type 4.0 engine with 300hp or more.
In short the 2000 year car should have had the same 4.0 liter engine as the S-type for the intro. followed by a manual shift a year later, with some more power in 2002 and body change in 2003. Now that would have been leading the pack and keeping the competition in the catch the leader mode! Helmut Schrader should have stayed on and allowed to continue with his autobahn schooled team of designers!
You said: "The 2003 year will have a lot of good/excellent cars from Europe and Japan that will leap ahead of the LS." Would you mind being a little more specific? Which cars will "leap ahead of the LS"?
Volvo, Saab, Acura, and Chrysler are all front-wheel drive. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Audi, Lexus, and Infiniti are either significantly smaller or significantly more expensive. The CTS has love-it-or-leave-it styling and no V8. If the hints about the '03 LS come to pass, then it should be extremely competitive when all aspects of the car (handling, overall performance, interior space, amenities, PRICE) are taken into consideration.
You seem to be suggesting that the LS will be an also-ran in '03, and I don't see any basis in fact for that suggestion.
Thanks to all who answered my inquiry regarding X-Plan.
March 4 issue of Automotive News has interview with Brian Kelley, Lincoln Mercury president. Confirms that a high-performance LS is in the works, that LS is a candidate for all wheel drive and that the "LS is the natural platform" for a Lincoln convertible.
I agree with you Johnnylinc, not much sense to be made out of that post. I am not sure how much he knows about actual auto production. I'm confused between the 4.6 and the 4.0 reference, maybe he wants a 4.3 with over 500 h.p., but with 218 ft.lb. torque @ 4500, wouldn't that be dandy?
I do love mixed metaphors, but I do get confused easily, too; I think.
2003 will bring the Infiniti G35, which should dent LS and CTS sales from a value standpoint. Yes, the G35 is slightly smaller as is the CTS. But the G35 has 260hp and 260 lbs of torque, and the auto is estimated to do very low 6 second 0-60 times. Easily cream the manual 330i at 6.4 seconds. After the 350Z is introduced this summer, it's six-speed manual will migrate over to the G35, estimated to go sub six-second 0-60. The clincher is that this near-luxury sedan starts in the 27k range. Irregardless that the LS has a V-8, even with more hp possible for 2003, it probably won't break the 6.5 second mark unless it goes on a diet. And 2003 LS prices may cause sticker shock. That was one subject not discussed at Mania 3. Yes, LM had a chance to grab the prize in early 2000, when the BMW and LS were nearly the only game in town. The budding manual was a "Made for Europe Only" car but it gave us an alternative to the Bavarians who had that market to themselves for almost 15 years. I doubt that the Manual LS's sales volume of one-half of one percent gives much incentive for LM to try another Manual experiment. While I would argue that a V-8 manual would be unique enough to sell well, the Manual sedan market is not as large as we think. Over 92% of cars in the US are automatic. And that % is probably not declining as the population ages. Still, BMW would sell lots more of the M5 if they were $40,000 instead of $75,000. LM could put the six-speed Tremec behind the LS V-8 for a very small investment. LM argues the Tremec is not world class but it is good enough for the Viper, Corvette and SVT Cobra. I feel the current Getrag fiver needs world class overdrive which the six-speed Getrag also lacks and is way too expensive. Like it or not, the Tremec six-speed is the answer, has the right cost and ratios even if it might be "notchy and noisy". If the SVT Cobra at Mania 3 could cut 51 second runs for time of the day, it couldn't be that bad a transmission. The big question is: With Ford's current financial state, is another Manual LS on the horizon? My crystal ball says no, and it's very fuzzy on the future of the current LS Manual for 2003.
Stan, I always enjoy your passion for manual transmissions, but not everybody regards it as a prerequisite for a sports sedan.
The 2003 G35 will arrive with slightly more peak HP and slightly less torque than the 2000 LS V8. Cadillac enters with about the same amount of HP that the LS6 has been criticized for.
Don't forget that the CTS and the G35 enjoy a significant weight (and gearing) advantage over the LS, so even with the same or slightly less hp they get much better performance. 0-60 for the automatic CTS with 220 hp is over a second quicker (low to mid 7's) than the V6 LS. Manual is sub 7 second. The 2002 LS might be a tad quicker but it won't beat the CTS or the G35. With the LS you get more luxury and more room with a slight sacrifice in 0-60 times and slalom. The LS needs about 20-30 more hp and better gearing to keep up.
Who cares, other than those who want bragging rights?
The LS is a road car, not a drag racer. I picture us as relatively mature folks who occasionally want a wicked 30-70 or 60-90, not teen-agers lurking at stoplights.
Are we allowing a metric invented in the 50's (Tom McCahill) to weigh too heavily in our assessment of a vehicle?
In my original post, I mentioned that at the recent Dallas autoshow, the G35 and CTS had people climbing over each other to get a look. There was real energy there. On the other hand, the only people looking at the LS, when there were any, were blue hairs.
I think it is just one example of many, that demonstrates that the LS has lost its buzz.
Maybe the '03 will provide a shot in the arm. We'll see.
Charter Member LLSOWWAV8WASS (Lincoln LS Owners Who Want A V8 With a Six Speed)
Out here in Southern California, it's those pesky Civics, Integras and Eclipses with NOS that we have to deal with. Luckily, most have merely removed their hubcaps, chopped their springs,added huge rear spoilers, blue bulbs and 4" exhaust tips, go around in pairs and wear reversed baseball caps. They otherwise don't have a clue to performance and have replaced the low and slow 63 Chevies with these smaller cars. They spend their time in the right lane looking for upsetting road irregularities while bouncing up and down due to the cut spring phenomenon. But SOME of these guys have megabuck 20" wheels and keep a spare stock engine for their smog inspections. I consider these guys right up there with the IS300's at the stoplight drags. Next month, I expect that the poor little rich kids around here will start showing up with G35's with huge spoilers. I'm glad they are just making their hp/weight ratio worse and becoming ticket bait. I'm trying to stay stealth.
A few tenths doesn't matter much at all in the real world, but a second or more would be very noticeable. I'm not into burning rubber but I still like to nail the throttle from a standstill and blast to 60 or 70 occasionally. However, the main reason is public perception which is usually based on magazine reviews. Especially if you're talking about performance sedans. The LS will never beat the competition in these reviews if it's over a second slower. Just won't happen. It needs to at least be within a few tenths to even be considered. Look at the recent C&D test. The LS came in last and I think it was because it was so slow. Reviewers will overlook certain flaws if a car is quick and handles good. But if it's not perceived to be quick then the flaws are just magnified.
So, it's mostly perception but let's face it - that's what sells cars. I don't really want a 6-speed manual V8 LS but I would like one to be offered because it would help the LS' reputation and image. That's why the early LS ads touted the manual tranny even though it only expected <5% of sales to be manuals. Perception is everything.
Funny how times have changed. Go back to the Muscle Car days and check out their 0-60 times. Not that great by today's standards. I saw a show on the '69 Dart Swinger. 0-60 was something close to 8 seconds. That with a V8 (I don't remember which one). That was considered quite fast by the reviewer. And just try and stop or turn one of those things. My little 181 cubic inch motor puts out more HP than my son's old '85 Cougar with the 302, 220+ vs. 140. Granted, I give up a some torque, but I could still win 0-60. That car was HEAVY!
Just how quiet is the G35, or CTS? How much "luxury" is there in either car? As was pointed out earlier, the LS gets creamed for the same HP #'s for which the CTS is touted. Can you spell double standard? I'm sure the G35 will get killed in any comparison with the reveared BMW anyway.
I believe it's time for a reality check! The LS is a GREAT car and I am proud to own one! While the writers on the rags can only dream of owning most of the cars they test, I can own what is the best bang-for-the-buck car in this segment!
Well said ezaircon. What a great car this is to drive, and I too am proud to own one. I often perceive significant defensiveness among contributors to this board, who truly enjoy their cars, but are frustrated at unfavorable press. I recognize that that unfavorable press can hurt us economically as it impacts resale values. I'm also disappointed when I tell people I bought an LS and they respond "a Lincoln????". Then, I smile to myself (might be a suppressed grin) and say "You bet! Its a great car"!
George, my college philosophy professor would disagree with you. Perception IS reality. Think about it. Everything we know about the world is learned through our perceptions. So who's to say that our perception of reality is real or perceived? We could all be perceiving the same thing but it might not be reality. Maybe I'm not really typing this right now. Maybe real men do buy VW beetles. (ok that last one was a stretch).
Which brings up interesting questions: if a bear falls over a tree in the woods will the Pope hear it? Why do we park in a driveway and drive on a parkway? How could the Aztek have ever made it into production?
I am proud to drive my LS Manual, and with the Borla and 2002 air box, it's much faster than the C&D 7.9 seconds pulling the boat trailer. I've raced both an IS300 and new MR2 and they could not pull away from me up to 80 mph. The trick with the V-6 manual is to keep the rpm up and modulate the clutch as the throttle because the torque band is from 3 to 5,000 rpm. This may not be possible with the auto V-6 unless you can do what's called a "dump" into drive but most computers won't let you engage the torque converter in drive from neutral above a fairly low rpm. The holeshot is where I can usually do the most damage against the auto competition. Even if the guy has a stick (rare), he usually doesn't know where his torque peak and band is and starts out at the wrong rpm. And this is where LSD would really contribute to the LS Manual. Since the Getrag is not a fast shifter, I don't really have much advantage versus an auto with an SST type control system. Especially if the Auto guy has used a G sensor to know his shift points. And many of the Civic/Integra crowd have these in those added "pods" you see on the "A" pillar.
99.9% of consumers will never pull out a stop watch when buying a car to check the 0-60 claims. If the car is perceived to be quick or fast or luxurious or in vogue, then it is. And even though the auto press has more of the facts at their fingertips, they are unlikely to contradict the general consensus even if they know better.
And I, for one, would appreciate a good burn-out now and again. Afterall I'm approaching that mid-life crisis stage! :-)
As Stanny1 mentioned and based on the concept cars and articles with the Lincoln designer, I'm betting the whole Lincoln range is going to be moved up in price at some point.
IMHO, with the Continental gone, the LS is going to have to try to span two markets - the CTS, G35 and 3-series and also the DTS, GS430 and 5-series markets. That is going to be very hard to do, much less do it well. But, it may make for more model variety (price, power, luxury) so everyone can have their "custom" fit LS !
This is a good car. It just needs tweaking here and there, particularly regarding power, MPG and fit/finish. Sounds like (per Mania 3) much, if not all of this is being addressed, but the jury's still out. If FLM intends to truly use the LS to compete with the large range of products you outlined, they'd better be ready (as in spending money) to actually do it. If not, it may be time to sell your stock. . .and your car.
Just back from another European business trip, and it was (as always) interesting to observe what's travelling down the autobahns. Saw one Jag S type, one 300M and no other American vehicles even remotely in the LS's class in ~2000 miles of travel up and down mostly A5 in Germany. There were a quite a few Volvos, so I guess that's most of the reason why we'll never see LS's in Europe.
Perhaps this should be made more clear on the site (not my area, but I'll pass it along), but Edmunds reviews the consumer reviews each week for inappropriate material, profanity, etc. before we "publish" them. So, your review might site in a queue for a week/10 days before it appears on the site.
Since we generally update the pricing pages and all the accompanying content about once a week or so, there will always be a bit of time lag.
Thanks for the update. It really should say that somewhere. After battling with the editors over their long term LS reviews you might say we're just a bit paranoid.
The point I was trying to make is that you can't stand still and let Japan and Europe erode or wipe out the LS-pioneered "Value equation".
There are many elements that together create value and for 2004 there are many players like Acura(Type-S-Awd?), Lexus(IS300), Infinity(G35), Audi(A6-V8), Wolkswagen(D1), BMW (2-series), Mercedes(C-class), GM-Pontiac,Holden(Monaro)+2004CTS that are ready to attack this value equation big time possibly running over any 2003 or 2004LS improvements.
To stay ahead in this highly competative $30-45K market will require leadership in this value equations (in short continues major improvement from year to year). The old Detroit trick of grill freshening or adding a 6 CD changer for the new model year will not do.
With help of the internet customers are getting smarter and will look at many of these elements (not just the sticker price or top speed or 0-60 times). Horse per pound ratios, gas milage, safety, quality, warranty, dealer service etc...etc. will be some of the many elements used in "Value" shopping in the future.
I've asked at both Mania 2 and 3 about the price point of the LS, and both times was assured that Lincoln intends to keep it where it is.
As for image & perception I'm certainly not up to a debate with a philosophy professor. I consider myself a very lucky car owner, in that the LS is virtually perfect in it's balance of luxury and performance for my particular tastes. And I don't crave the approval of magazine writers to validate my choice.
There seems to be a "dividing line" of sorts between luxury and sport in people who like this type of sedan. akirby mentions a weight advantage in the G35 and CTS. I'm not disagreeing; just never thought of the extra size & weight as a disadvantage. In a $30-40k sedan, I'd like passengers to find the rear seat comfortable, not merely tolerable. And I like a car I can drive 1200 or so miles in a day in comfort. Other people have other priorities. So be it. 0-60 times don't do much for me; I'm more interested in highway passing power when it comes to speed, and serene high speed cruising.
OK, I'll admit it. The autocross at LS Mania 3 was the first time I ever floored the accelerator from a standing start, in 16 months of ownership.
While additional weight does have disadvantages, it also has advantages as well. Don't forget the laws of physics when an accident occurs. I am not willing to purchase a vehicle that is too light because of crash safety. I like the size and roominess of the LS and I think it gives the LS and advantage over the competition which is all smaller.
Guys - don't get me wrong. I also prefer the extra room and comfort of the bigger LS. But it hurts the LS in comparison tests where they look at 0-60 times and slalom speed. And while those tests don't influence me they do influence a lot of folks and Lincoln gets a bad rap (undeserved I might add). It wouldn't bother me so much if they gave it credit for being bigger but it hardly even comes up. I would think potential buyers would want to know that. It just doesn't seem like balanced reporting to me.
I floor my accelerator everyday! You're missing some real fun. Of course I have the V-6. I have to floor the accelerator a lot. But seriously, it's hard to break the rear end loose without massive applications of the loud pedal. And it's no fun cornering by just turning the steering wheel. Step down and see if you can get those rear tires to help on the corners. And just think, the majority of car owners will never experience the E-Ticket magic of RWD. Stepping on the gas for them means losing the turn and sliding into the tree. I call that the magic of FWD or "Terminal Understeer".
This discussion of 0-60 times is interesting, my one beef with the LS's performance is right off the line out of the hole. I don't do this as much as I used to, and am really satisfied (well, blown away) by how fast this car accelerates at speed, but a bit more out of the hole would be nice now and then.
I think the source of the problem, in many ways, may well be the economy mode the transmission takes. I remember a comparo between luxury sedans, C&D, LS came in mid pack, Audi A6 2.7T first, BMW 528i 2nd, etc. The Audi was the best at 0-60 times, and was a fair amount quicker than the V8 LS, but only on 0-60, if you looked at their "standing street start" data of something like 5-60 or so (don't have the article with me), the LS was slightly quicker. A rear gear change and a user selectable sport mode for the transmission to start hard in 1st would probably eliminate most of the perceived performance problems. People do look at 0-60 times, but many don't think to look at the other times and think about what that might mean. To me, it told me that the LS should be a banshee at highway speeds, and it is.
I just talked to my LM dealer who informed me my new 2002 LS V6 5 Speed has arrived. I decided to turn in my 2000 LS V6 Speed w/35,000 k) and not wait for the 2003 as I heard a rummor that the manual transmission is going bye bye (hopefully only a rummor). Hopefully my 2002 will be free of the many problems I've had with my 2000 as I really do like the LS and am glad to be able to buy American!
This first year of the CTS will feature the old Opel engine form the orphaned Catera. Cadillac "breathed" on it and it performed well in the C&D test. But coupled with the new overdrive Getrag manual, this engine is seeing service that Catera owners never dished out or dreamed of. Let's say that the new CTS buyer is younger and more aggressive and this engine isn't ready for the job. But, oh baby, wait until the new Caddy V-6 goes in. According to rumors, this new engine may leave the G35 in it's wake. This near-luxury market is one hot competitive place!
Comments
I also have snow tires on my car. Although the jet stream kept the Rochester, NY area pretty snow free this year, we had our usual 9-10 feet last year, and the car did well.
Jag seems to have changed their A, Z, X pricing and now offer, in effect, a factory rebate on top of any other rebates or deals. But it doesn't eliminate the haggling.
BTW - if you're interested in getting a decent price on an ordered vehicle talk to the fleet sales dept. - most dealerships have one. They can usually order anything you want and usually for a few hundred over invoice without haggling. They can also sell off the lot but then they're competing with the regular salesmen and the price may be higher.
If you can believe this... the last 2 times that he has had the car in the shop(actually 2 different shops), they've taken it for a test drive and accidentally not shut the hood, but the safety catch must not have been working either, because the hood flew up while they were driving. This time, the windshield was smashed. (YIKES!)
My sister-in-law says that the car isn't "nickel and diming" them anymore- it is "thousand-dollaring" them to death!
Of course, my '92 conti is any cheaper to keep on the road...
Maybe I missed it, but what was the point of the comment in the first place?
The next time you are in trouble, call a city councilman or state legislator to help you. Stay away from those darned lawyers.
All of the problems you note above are common. Front ball joints and control arm bushings are common. Both require special tools to replace, but make a world of difference when they are replaced. They need replacing about 60,000 miles or so, depending on driving style and roads. The fan isnt electric..Im pretty sure it uses a viscous fan clutch, which also wears out after awhile.
Oh yeah...it wasnt his head gasket that blew...It was his profile gasket. If he goes to Yahoo and does a search on "timing case profile gasket", he will see a very interesting writeup on this issue by a guy who knew all too well about it. ;-)
There is a fence between heaven and hell and God is really fed up with the devil not keeping his side of the fence clean. So he gives the devil a final warning: "Clean up your side of the fence by tomorrow or I'll sue you!". The devil pauses, grins and says "Where will YOU find a lawyer?"
Charter Member
LLSOWWAV8WASS
(Lincoln LS Owners Who Want A V8 With a Six Speed)
Although it's true that both these cars will have a several-month head start on the '03 LS, I'm willing to bet that a head-to-head comparison among the '03 models will find the LS acquitting itself quite well. If we're going to compare current models to previous-year models, then we should compare the '02 LS to the Catera and the I30.
I don't personally see any ceding of leadership, and I didn't even go to Mania 3.
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
I can't help but notice that the new entries into the RWD luxury sport field are a half-step below the LS in terms of size, price, and maybe luxury amenities. This is not to say they are automatically inferior cars, and there must be a marketing reason behind it, but nobody seems to be going directly after the LS. I thought Cadillac at least would go more head-to-head. I guess they figure the CTS fits in neatly beneath the Seville in their line.
Scott
LLSOC Member
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38365&a=a&bt=lincoln
The only thing I've seen recently is that the planned "large car" platform that was to be used by future big Lincolns was axed in the last round cost-cutting; I haven't seen any recent mention of the smaller LS. If the article is accurate, the redesigned '05 LS and the hot-rod (which I assume will be an '06 model) are the only ones in the near-term pipeline.
This is, of course, pure speculation on my part.
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
I am, however, eagerly anticipating the obvious comparison test pitting the '03 LS against the G35 and the CTS--the car mags this fall will be jumping all over each other to get this test onto the newsstand. Such a comparo should prove to be VERY interesting!
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
The 2001 LS should have had the 25 horses or more added after this townhall LS group kept asking for more power and manual tranny when they purchased the 2000 model car. Instead Lincoln waited so that they will be playing catch-up from now on! Waiting until until 2003 was a mistake. By 2003 the LS should have had a minimum the Cobra SVT 4.6 V8 with the manual or the Jag S type 4.0 engine with 300hp or more.
In short the 2000 year car should have had the same 4.0 liter engine as the S-type for the intro. followed by a manual shift a year later, with some more power in 2002 and body change in 2003. Now that would have been leading the pack and keeping the competition in the catch the leader mode! Helmut Schrader should have stayed on and allowed to continue with his autobahn schooled team of designers!
Volvo, Saab, Acura, and Chrysler are all front-wheel drive. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Audi, Lexus, and Infiniti are either significantly smaller or significantly more expensive. The CTS has love-it-or-leave-it styling and no V8. If the hints about the '03 LS come to pass, then it should be extremely competitive when all aspects of the car (handling, overall performance, interior space, amenities, PRICE) are taken into consideration.
You seem to be suggesting that the LS will be an also-ran in '03, and I don't see any basis in fact for that suggestion.
JLinc, confused...
March 4 issue of Automotive News has interview with Brian Kelley, Lincoln Mercury president. Confirms that a high-performance LS is in the works, that LS is a candidate for all wheel drive and that the "LS is the natural platform" for a Lincoln convertible.
It just gets better and better.
I do love mixed metaphors, but I do get confused easily, too; I think.
Yes, LM had a chance to grab the prize in early 2000, when the BMW and LS were nearly the only game in town. The budding manual was a "Made for Europe Only" car but it gave us an alternative to the Bavarians who had that market to themselves for almost 15 years. I doubt that the Manual LS's sales volume of one-half of one percent gives much incentive for LM to try another Manual experiment. While I would argue that a V-8 manual would be unique enough to sell well, the Manual sedan market is not as large as we think. Over 92% of cars in the US are automatic. And that % is probably not declining as the population ages.
Still, BMW would sell lots more of the M5 if they were $40,000 instead of $75,000. LM could put the six-speed Tremec behind the LS V-8 for a very small investment. LM argues the Tremec is not world class but it is good enough for the Viper, Corvette and SVT Cobra. I feel the current Getrag fiver needs world class overdrive which the six-speed Getrag also lacks and is way too expensive. Like it or not, the Tremec six-speed is the answer, has the right cost and ratios even if it might be "notchy and noisy". If the SVT Cobra at Mania 3 could cut 51 second runs for time of the day, it couldn't be that bad a transmission.
The big question is: With Ford's current financial state, is another Manual LS on the horizon? My crystal ball says no, and it's very fuzzy on the future of the current LS Manual for 2003.
The 2003 G35 will arrive with slightly more peak HP and slightly less torque than the 2000 LS V8. Cadillac enters with about the same amount of HP that the LS6 has been criticized for.
So who's playing catch-up here?
The LS is a road car, not a drag racer. I picture us as relatively mature folks who occasionally want a wicked 30-70 or 60-90, not teen-agers lurking at stoplights.
Are we allowing a metric invented in the 50's (Tom McCahill) to weigh too heavily in our assessment of a vehicle?
I think it is just one example of many, that demonstrates that the LS has lost its buzz.
Maybe the '03 will provide a shot in the arm. We'll see.
Charter Member
LLSOWWAV8WASS
(Lincoln LS Owners Who Want A V8 With a Six Speed)
So, it's mostly perception but let's face it - that's what sells cars. I don't really want a 6-speed manual V8 LS but I would like one to be offered because it would help the LS' reputation and image. That's why the early LS ads touted the manual tranny even though it only expected <5% of sales to be manuals. Perception is everything.
Couldn't resist
Just how quiet is the G35, or CTS? How much "luxury" is there in either car? As was pointed out earlier, the LS gets creamed for the same HP #'s for which the CTS is touted. Can you spell double standard? I'm sure the G35 will get killed in any comparison with the reveared BMW anyway.
I believe it's time for a reality check! The LS is a GREAT car and I am proud to own one! While the writers on the rags can only dream of owning most of the cars they test, I can own what is the best bang-for-the-buck car in this segment!
Which brings up interesting questions: if a bear falls over a tree in the woods will the Pope hear it? Why do we park in a driveway and drive on a parkway? How could the Aztek have ever made it into production?
The trick with the V-6 manual is to keep the rpm up and modulate the clutch as the throttle because the torque band is from 3 to 5,000 rpm. This may not be possible with the auto V-6 unless you can do what's called a "dump" into drive but most computers won't let you engage the torque converter in drive from neutral above a fairly low rpm. The holeshot is where I can usually do the most damage against the auto competition. Even if the guy has a stick (rare), he usually doesn't know where his torque peak and band is and starts out at the wrong rpm. And this is where LSD would really contribute to the LS Manual. Since the Getrag is not a fast shifter, I don't really have much advantage versus an auto with an SST type control system. Especially if the Auto guy has used a G sensor to know his shift points. And many of the Civic/Integra crowd have these in those added "pods" you see on the "A" pillar.
99.9% of consumers will never pull out a stop watch when buying a car to check the 0-60 claims. If the car is perceived to be quick or fast or luxurious or in vogue, then it is. And even though the auto press has more of the facts at their fingertips, they are unlikely to contradict the general consensus even if they know better.
And I, for one, would appreciate a good burn-out now and again. Afterall I'm approaching that mid-life crisis stage! :-)
Joe
LLSOC Charter member
IMHO, with the Continental gone, the LS is going to have to try to span two markets - the CTS, G35 and 3-series and also the DTS, GS430 and 5-series markets. That is going to be very hard to do, much less do it well. But, it may make for more model variety (price, power, luxury) so everyone can have their "custom" fit LS !
John
LLSOC Charter Member
This is a good car. It just needs tweaking here and there, particularly regarding power, MPG and fit/finish. Sounds like (per Mania 3) much, if not all of this is being addressed, but the jury's still out. If FLM intends to truly use the LS to compete with the large range of products you outlined, they'd better be ready (as in spending money) to actually do it. If not, it may be time to sell your stock. . .and your car.
Just back from another European business trip, and it was (as always) interesting to observe what's travelling down the autobahns. Saw one Jag S type, one 300M and no other American vehicles even remotely in the LS's class in ~2000 miles of travel up and down mostly A5 in Germany. There were a quite a few Volvos, so I guess that's most of the reason why we'll never see LS's in Europe.
Oh well.
Since we generally update the pricing pages and all the accompanying content about once a week or so, there will always be a bit of time lag.
No conspiracy at work at all, I'm afraid.
- Jonah
There are many elements that together create value and for 2004 there are many players like Acura(Type-S-Awd?), Lexus(IS300), Infinity(G35), Audi(A6-V8), Wolkswagen(D1), BMW (2-series), Mercedes(C-class), GM-Pontiac,Holden(Monaro)+2004CTS that are ready to attack this value equation big time possibly running over any 2003 or 2004LS improvements.
To stay ahead in this highly competative $30-45K market will require leadership in this value equations (in short continues major improvement from year to year). The old Detroit trick of grill freshening or adding a 6 CD changer for the new model year will not do.
With help of the internet customers are getting smarter and will look at many of these elements (not just the sticker price or top speed or 0-60 times). Horse per pound ratios, gas milage, safety, quality, warranty, dealer service etc...etc. will be some of the many elements used in "Value" shopping in the future.
As for image & perception I'm certainly not up to a debate with a philosophy professor. I consider myself a very lucky car owner, in that the LS is virtually perfect in it's balance of luxury and performance for my particular tastes. And I don't crave the approval of magazine writers to validate my choice.
There seems to be a "dividing line" of sorts between luxury and sport in people who like this type of sedan. akirby mentions a weight advantage in the G35 and CTS. I'm not disagreeing; just never thought of the extra size & weight as a disadvantage. In a $30-40k sedan, I'd like passengers to find the rear seat comfortable, not merely tolerable. And I like a car I can drive 1200 or so miles in a day in comfort. Other people have other priorities. So be it. 0-60 times don't do much for me; I'm more interested in highway passing power when it comes to speed, and serene high speed cruising.
OK, I'll admit it. The autocross at LS Mania 3 was the first time I ever floored the accelerator from a standing start, in 16 months of ownership.
Time to duck & cover.
Scott
LLSOC Member
I call that the magic of FWD or "Terminal Understeer".
I think the source of the problem, in many ways, may well be the economy mode the transmission takes. I remember a comparo between luxury sedans, C&D, LS came in mid pack, Audi A6 2.7T first, BMW 528i 2nd, etc. The Audi was the best at 0-60 times, and was a fair amount quicker than the V8 LS, but only on 0-60, if you looked at their "standing street start" data of something like 5-60 or so (don't have the article with me), the LS was slightly quicker. A rear gear change and a user selectable sport mode for the transmission to start hard in 1st would probably eliminate most of the perceived performance problems. People do look at 0-60 times, but many don't think to look at the other times and think about what that might mean. To me, it told me that the LS should be a banshee at highway speeds, and it is.