Thanks for the incentive info. Here in west coast Fl. they are only offering $3500 incentive. Would it be possible to get any additional information for these incentives. Also, do you know how long the early lease turn in deal is for. Maybe I can convince my LM dealer to keep me in the LS family. My 2001 Ls is trouble free. The posts on this board say that the 03 is even better.
Have been reading the board and see different incentives on the LS. Do you guys know if there is a factory to dealer incentive and if that can also be applied under the x plan. Also if there more cash back in a surrounding state it may be worth the drive. Here in Northeast Ohio its 3500 cash back and another 1000 if you go thru ford credit. Your help and infor. is appreciated.
WOW. $7500 for a returned lease. I am leasing and would buy the 03. I have a PIN # for X plan. Does the $7500 apply towards a lease turn in and then a purchase? Can I contact you to get the dealers name? Maybe you could post it and I'll contact him direct.Thanks.
The additional "returning leasee" incentive can only be applied to another leased vehicle. It does not apply if you turn in your lease and purchase a new LS.
In many states Ford is no longer leasing vehicles. The lease has been replaced by a balloon payment purchase (called RCO program) that has the option of either returning the vehicle at the end of the term of purchasing it for a set price. The primary reason for the extra rebate on the RCO "lease" is that with the balloon payment purchase sales tax for the total vehicle price is due at delivery. Therefore Lincoln has an extra $2K rebate to offset the sales tax and make the balloon payment purchase more attractive.
The RCO program is actually quite attractive, provided that 3 years from now you can obtain a low APR % to finance the baloon payment.
Driving up the MI will not do you any good. If you read the fine print it says "Residency restrictions apply" That is no matter where you purchase the vehicle, you only get the incentives that are in effect where you live.
I chatted with a S-type owner of a 2003 Jag today -- he complained about the quality issues with engine, warning lights, and 6 speed transmission malfunctioned. He said the customer service line couldn't care less, and that the dealer was just doing a volume sales business.
Just one story, but it sounds not unlike some of the problems we have heard. So, I suspect Ford is not favoring Jags over Lincolns -- they are really just trying to sell as many cars as possible, and build brand loyalty too.
Design wise, at this level of car, we know that Lincoln tried to design the best possible car for the price point -- and I think they succeeded.
I've had my 2003 LS6 for about a week now and couldn't help but notice it doesn't soak up bumps or other road irregularities very well. The ubiquitous tire thuds take away some of the overall refinement.
Some dealers fail to reduce the pressure from the factory 40+ PSI. Some others don't believe what is on the label inside the forward end of the front door opening, and set the pressure significantly higher.
What was your previous vehicle, prior to your purchase of the LS? I ask this, because I've often heard concerns pertaining to suspension and such, whenever someone has jumped from a Camry or Town Car to the LS, or previous Explorer to new Explorer, owners. etc.
Remember the news stories that Ford insisted the correct air pressure for the Wilderness AT tires on the Explorer should be 26 psi. As an owner of a 97 Explorer, I knew that I wasn't about go lower than 30 lbs because of our blistering summers here in Texas (or any other time.)
I always ask the service tech what he/she would recommend for tire pressure when I get a new or used car. They usually suggest about 5 lbs higher than the posted pressure.
Given what has happened with Ford & Firestone, I'm a firm believer in TODAY's recommended tire pressures. Why?
Someone in the company is deciding on the tire pressure to specify for a vehicle rated to carry 600-700#. I believe that the legal folk in the company are demanding test results to prove that this is a safe pressure for a loaded vehicle in hot weather.
Since I rarely have more than myself & one other person in the car, I see no advantage in using pressures higher than recommended. I see an annoying disadvantage in the increased harshness.
whatever tire you choose to use, get a guage and check it on a regular basis. this will save you a lot of money. the tires will wear better, the car will handle better, safety issues, etc, and will save you money by not having to buy a new set of tire prematurely(i.e. 2 sets instead of 3). had a '91 explorer with 70k on original firestone wilderness on them. took it in replace tires at a firestone dealer, and he asked why i wanted new tires. he said most people wouldn't replace tires like that. i said they are 5 1/2 years old, i want new ones. traded my '97 explorer with 50k and same tire type. had plenty of tread left.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
after getting your car serviced, always check the pressures. this is when i notice the worst discrepencies, especially if the frosts and rears have different recommended pressures.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I'm in the do it yourself camp. I don't trust anyone to check my tire pressure.
I used to drive company cars for years. We got our oil changes for years at Jiffy Lube. At Jiffy Lube I had to always had to ask them not to check my tire air pressure. What always would happen is I pulled into Jiffy Lube with the car and tires hot. The Jiffy experts would then let air out of the tires to bring them down to the specified pressure. However, when the tires cooled off they'd be 3 or 4 lb, under inflated. I never ran into anyone at a Jiffy Lube who seemed to undertand that the tire pressure was supposed to be set with the tires cold.
Also when the Taurus first came out, I'd always end up getting them back from dealer service with the tires 4 or 5 lb under inflated. So one time when I dropped the car off I asked the service advisor to have the tech NOT touch my tires. The surprised writer asked why, so I told him that their techs were underinflating my tires. I was then told that most Taurus drivers were complaining that the Taurus rode too hard so they were dropping the air pressure to make them ride smoother. He was shocked that I wanted my Taurus tires at full pressure.
Good discussion and good information. I will add only one thing:
Check TPs when you test drive any car - cars on a lot can vary wildly. I once drove a new car that handled strangely - turned out the front tires were at 40+ - and the rears were something like 30 . . .
BTW: KBB and Edmunds both show $3,500 rebates - but my dealer today told me $3,000 - wassup? Cheers, - Ray Looking again seriously at '03 Sports . . .
"I was then told that most Taurus drivers were complaining that the Taurus rode too hard so they were dropping the air pressure to make them ride smoother"
Yes I remember the year this occured, they were riding a bit too hard after a recent (touch up) and they lowered the recommended pressure rating on them.
Usually on sedans, 30-32 is the norm, I just stick to that, and anything below is just rediculous and unnecessary.
I don't know about Georgia, since incentives seem to be regional, but in California some dealers do not know about the extra $500 incentive -- but tell them to look it up, and thjey can verify it. Bring a printout of Edmunds listing with you.
Tires: I am sure you guys have already talked about this, but I am looking at replacement for the original 215/60/VR16 Firehawks for my non-sport 2000 LS. Any thoughts on the difference between Michelin Pilot XGT V4 and its Energy MXV4+?
The dealers seem to be confused on the incentives. Since the Lincoln web site has been messed up for several weeks and does not show the incentives, I can understand the confusion.
The latest deals went into effect July 9 and I believe that they will we in effect until Sept 2.
The best purchase deal is 0% APR / 60 mo. PLUS $2,000 rebate.
You may want to also look at the new Balloon Payment purchases (i.e. fake lease called RCO program) there are extra incentives in states with sales tax.
Hey, I'm posting this for a friend, who had a bad day last friday. His 2000 LS V6, which had about 35k miles and was just a few months from going off lease, died on his way to work. After having it towed to a dealer, they said the engine had seized due to oil sludging; they also said this is not covered by warranty and that he'd have to pay for a new engine assembly. They claimed he didn't have the oil changed for almost 20,000 miles according to their records. He did have it changed regularly, but not at the dealer to avoid their cost. But now of course he has to scrounge up the receipts, etc. He also always had synthetic oil used at those changes. - Even if it had gone a while without being changed, most cars nowadays have longer oil change intervals, some close to 10k miles with their oil life indicators. Could synthetic oil sludge up enough in 20k miles to seize the engine? - Do the 3.0l V6s have any history of oil sludging at all? I know Toyota had a huge problem with their V6 engines, but I can't find any info on a similar problem with the Lincoln engine.
I do not know of any problems with the oil sludging in the 3.0L Duratec, including the LS version.
I was just looking at another forum where someone posted that they had 109,000 miles on his 2000 LS with a 3.0L V6. He said the engine still felt excellent and he was wondering how many miles it would go without a rebuild.
Being sludged up at 35K sounds fishy, I wonder if the engine is really sludged up or if the dealer is trying to play hardball since your friend didn't get the oil changed there. I'd start by asking to see the inside of the engine and have them show me the "alleged" sludge.
Also, it sounds like your friend had someone else change the oil. I've heard lots of horror stories about shops, including dealers, who do not put in the oil you think your getting. I've heard several stories where someone was paying top dollar for Mobil 1 and the shop was putting in the regular stuff they put in any car. A lot of shops buy motor oil in bulk drums and pump in the same brand and weight oil in every car that they service, no matter what oil is called for in that car.
To make you even more apprehensive, about having your car serviced, I know 2 people who had their oil "changed" at their dealers only to drive off without any oil in their engines. One made it back to the dealer (an import) and all the dealer did was add oil. This person got rid of the car 6 months later so I don't know how long it lasted.
The other had the engine seize up 10 miles down the road, also done at an import dealer, and the dealer started off saying it was her fault for driving the car until it broke.
If you run your engine when it is low on motor oil, the pobability of sludge forming increases unbeliveably!
I found an internet site that talked about how sluge forms. Unfortunately I lost the link.
As a car is driven, contamenants form (ring blowby etc.) and the oil will suspend them. Sluge forms when the oil no longer can suspend the contamenents, so they precipitate out forming sludge.
This info. claimed that running a typical engine for 5,000 miles with the motor oil just 1 quart low increased the amount of sludge formed by hundreds of times. IIRC, 2 quarts low sludge formation went up by something like a thousand times.
One other consideration is that the V6 used in the LS has a 6.7 quart oil pan on an engine that has a six quart or less oil capacity in other applications (Taurus, etc.). Therefore, it should be more tolerant of being run a quart low.
Either way, this sounds very much like the dealer is trying to get out of a warranty claim, due in part to Ford Motor Company's directives. By all means, have your friend examine (and photograph, for that matter) this sludge. Might even want to take a sample away in a bottle for independent analysis. Thousands of dollars are on the line here, and the dealers are used to getting their way.
Thanks for that info; I've always been suspicious of shops putting in generic oil when they claim it's synthetic - how are you going to know, taste it?
My friend said when the engine had died and he was waiting for the tow truck, he did check the dipstick, and could see some type of thick crud at the bottom of it.
I didn't think there were problems with that engine, my parents have a 3.0l duratec 97 Sable with 100k+ miles on it and they have no problems. I'd still want a second opinion by an independent mechanic. The engine assembly price they threw out was $4800.
I'll suggest to him to get it analyzed; also, do you think Ford's regional office would be any help? I think he should move up the food chain at Ford to get some answers.
I didn't know sludge could form like that from low oil; mental note to check mine when I get home.
Not sure if this is of any help, but I'll give you my experience, I have a 2000 LS V8 so far 94,000 miles, and last time I replaced the oil was at 79K miles. YES I know I'm being horrible in not changing it, but I really haven't cared to make the time to change it.
I always replace it with synthetic, Halvoline, it's worked best for me in the past, where I had an incident in a friends car '96 Taurus 3.0L Duratec (his dad replaced the oil, but didn't properly screw the drain plug) and the ONLY way we found out something was wrong was because the oil light lite up and the engine was heating up...Considering we were in the middle of the Everglades, without any real place to call for help, He took the chance and drove it for 15 miles till the next possible stop, and the engine didn't suffer any damage from it.
Overall, company wise, I do not know of there being a problem with engine sludging. As in, this might be an isolated incident probably caused by other factors. It's not a widespread "issue" such as Toyota's 3.0L V6.
Disclosure: I bought a 2000 Lincoln LS8 Sport – and put nearly 40,000 miles on it – so, I may be biased. But I do not now own an LS.
I recently test drove the first ’04 CTS with the Sport package received by my dealer. It also had about every other option – the list (I was told, no sticker on the car) was over $40K. I test drone an ’03 LS8 Sport immediately before driving the CTS. FWIW, here are my impressions:
Price: I am not certain exactly what price the CTS could be purchased for. I am reasonable certain that the LS8 Sport w/moonroof could be purchased (after rebate and discount) for something between $35 and $36,000.
Engine: The LS’s V8 is a wonderful motor. With the full dual exhaust and a freer flow than my 2000 (I had Magnaflows installed on mine within the first 1,000 miles – it originally sounded more like an angry industrial vacuum cleaner than an internal combustion engine) they provide what I look for in a sound track to accompany spirited driving. (Just the right amount of heterodyne V8 beat for me.) With 286 lb./ft. of torque and VVT to spread that well above and below the peak, it is flexible and provides ample power (for me) in any circumstance. With about 200 more pounds to haul, I think it is likely a bit quicker – but I have yet to see a published full test.
Trans.: The SST (Lincoln’s interpretation of a man-u-matic) is a useful device for providing the additional control over shift timing that improves my ability to enjoy said spirited driving. Clearly, it is not a manual – but no manual allows the option of fully automatic shift management when traffic conditions make that more desirable. My understanding is that the new Caddy SUV with this motor and trans. will have such a mode – I was disappointed to learn that the CTS does not receive this even as an option.
Steering / ride / handling. I also prefer the balance (compromise) of the LS Sport suspension tuning to that of the CTS. No idea which would pull higher maximum lateral G force – but I do not explore that close to the limit on public roads.
Seats: Well, here in the deep south, the fact that the LS provides cooling to the leather seat surfaces is really quite a treat.
MPG: Well, does anyone know what the ’04 CTS 3.6 highway EPA rating is? As I said, there was no window sticker on this car – the sales manager had claimed it for his ‘demo’. (Thanks!) The LS8 is rated at 24 – the CTS is probably 1 or 2 mpg better??? Last time I checked, KBB said the MPG ratings had not been updated for the ’04 3.6 . . .
Styling – inside and out: well, that’s a very personal thing. . .
So – If I am able to buy an ’03 LS before the inventory dries up completely, I would do that rather than buy the ’04 CTS. But I did want to try the CTS, now that the motor had been materially improved for ’04.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone of this board. And the CTS is certainly a good car – and quite a departure for Caddy – as the LS was in late ’99. And I applaud the fact that GM will bring the CTS-v to market.
As always – just my $.02 worth . . . Cheers, - Ray Returning to lurking mode – with flame suit zipped up . . .
You shouldn't fear being flamed on this board. I find most people here are "reasonable" and allow for differences in taste. Unlike any Toyota board you may be inclined to express an opinion counter to the brand on.....
About 3 months ago I test drove a CTS, 3.2L, auto. I have been test driving some of the competition and I keep coming back to the LS. Unless I discover something else great that is priced right in the next couple of months, I will be getting either a leftover '03 LS or an '04.
The CTS is not a bad car, but to me the LS is just a better overall car. Seems from Consumer Reports recent review, they agree. I had several of the same negative and positive feelings about the CTS, LS and G35 that CR did.
My complaints about the CTS are:
You can option yourself to death, the fold down rear seats are an extra cost option, the 2 best paint colors are $750 options. It is very easy to get the sticker price up to $40K, which of course is a V6.
I really don't like the interior. When I first sat in one, it felt big inside, but the longer I spent in it the more confining it felt. In particular the very high belt line and that I had to put the seat all the way down for my head to clear the roof (it had a moonroof) and the transmission tunnel felt very confining, after 15 minutes I felt like I was sitting in a bath tub. I also did not like the look and feel of the interior materials nor the orange display or hard to use knobs on the center stack.
The CTS felt like I could drive it fast, but it just is not the rewarding experince that the LS is to drive, the LS is just plain a better feeling car.
I'm just not a fan of the CTS's exterior design.
Here is what I liked about the CTS:
The auto trannie shifted fast and smoothly, it always felt like I was in the right gear and there is the "sport shift" option. The shift lever has a nice feel to its gear selection, however there is no SST type shifter available.
The driver's seat has a lot of travel, one of the few cars I've driven that I didn't have to put the seat all the way back.
Option flexibility, I like the CTS's classic, pick whatever option and option combination you want. The LS's restricted model arrays is one of my hot buttons, that is I feel Lincoln markeing is trying to force you to buy a more expensive model than you want inorder to get one or two features that you want.
I won't be posting this on the CTS board as the last time I posted something there that suggested that the LS may be better than the CTS in any possible way, they were all over me.
To all the wise and worldly LSV8 owners: PLEASE HELP! I have rented this car many times and always found it to be a great ride with slightly less luxury than afforded by the european and japanese competitors. An expensive car for what one receives. Anyway, I have an opportunity to purchase a used 2000 LSV8, 7000 miles, for less than $22,000. A wealthy family had the car as a fifth vehicle!
Anyway, every review outside of the original first drive tests indicate that this Lincoln has many great points, but that Lincoln stopped short of achieving the customer experience they targeted. I am, frankly, afraid to make a purchase of this dollar value when all I hear about are poeople's woes with dealerships, transmission problems, windows, CD decks, etc...
Would anyone actually receommend this car to me? Why? Why not?
Buy the car!! After you do, just take it to a dealer and make sure that all of the computer updates have been applied to it, then have a blast with it.
My wife and I have a 2000 LS V-8. We bought it new, currently have 25,000 miles on it and have enoyed the car quite a bit. Yes, there were a few small hiccups, but I guess I'm lucky in that the dealer is very competent, and took care of the problems.
Love the car, the 2003 is even better, and if it was financially feasable, I'd move up to the newer model in a heartbeat.
that Ray's well thought out post generated zero responses on the CTS board until one of the (if not, the) most respected voices came on and said. . .thanks for the input. No whiny bitching, no "my dad can beat your dad," only the day-to-day comments on their car.
The CTS people don't seem to be so touchy as certain other groups. It's refreshing, to say the least. Others would say that they're keeping their heads in the sand, but only time will tell.
That said, thanks to Ray for providing the back-to-back test drive comments. My LS is still running fine, but I pine for what might have been.
Is there different updates to the PCM by the dealer than just the trannie? My dealer told me that there has to be a problem with the transmition before they do a re-flash to the trans. I am not sure if they re-flashed my PCM or not. I went there and told them that I would like it done and they said that they did it but, I think they are just telling me what I want to hear. Any sudjestions?
Given strong CTS sales, CTS owners likely feeling pleased with their purchase and looking forward to the future (what with larger, improved, more powerful engines on the way, a manual model still on sale today, and a high performance 6-speed manual reportedly on the way, eventually). Pity the poor Infiniti M45 owner!
Make Model May 2003 May 2002 2003 YTD 2002 YTD
Cadillac DeVille 4,866 5,188 28,184 27,909 Lincoln Town Car 5,422 6,650 22,895 25,216
Cadillac CTS 4,651 3,473 21,358 11,237 Lincoln LS 3,176 3,383 14,137 16,190
Anybody who chooses the CTS over the LS after carefully trying them both, IMHO, just doesn't like Ford, or opted for the "value" of the CTS as a Cadillac, at a cheaper price than the Lincoln.
Oh yeah, there is that subjective styling preference thing too.....sorry I forgot.
But seriously, once you've put the pedal down on the LS-V8 and really driven the LS, there is no comparison
If we learned anything over the years -- its that the 2000 model year LS had its share of minor, first model year, problems. So my advice to anyone buying a low-mileage 2000 LS-8 is to be sure you get extended warranty coverage. Its a great car -- but noone can tell you all the bugs have been caught yet.
I had leased a 2000 V8 Sport, just returned it with 45,000 miles. The only problems I ever experienced were; the rear windows falling (taken care of with no problem) and the transmission reflash (again handled with no problem). I just moved up to a 2003, but if I had the opportunity to buy a 2000 with 7,000 miles for under $22k, I would have jumped at it in a heartbeat. Sounds like a great deal to me. My recommendation is take the deal and run!
Following is a complete list of warranty problems, all fixed, on my 2000 LS:
Communications shut down dahboard & transmission -Replace ABS unit Replace leaking headlight covers Replace Rear Power Window actuators Replace Transmission Shift Switch Replace Thermostat (an old-fashioned, overheating problem) Replace rear license plate lights Reflash transmission programming Replace chromatic rear view mirror -- blotches Replace Alternator - failure Replace Computer - Alternator blew it out Reprogram Passive Anti Theft System Tighten Loose battery jumper at Front Firewall Replace defective A-Pillar Trim Replace Front Windshield (Lincoln mechanic mistake)
...yet I just bought a 2003 for my wife -- guess it is just normal, first model year problems. The above list is not an exaggeration -- that all really has been repaired on one, single LS V8.
Improperly fitted front ashtray/facia unit -- even the Lincoln who designed the interior could not figure out how to fix this problem that has been part of the car since it rolled off the assembly line
This is the letter I posted under Lincoln LS vs Yugo. from the looks of the comments there are quite a few complaints about the LS.
I guess Lincoln's idea of American Luxury is all the FREE coffee you can drink while sitting in the dealer's waiting room while having repairs made. Since this letter was mailed on 2/10 after a 3 week wait for a loaner the heating system was fixed on 2/20-2/21, it had to be kept overnight again. Also the left headlight assembly had to be replaced due to excessive moisture on the inside. On 3/28 the right rear window dropped out of it's track and both rear window regulators had to be replaced, the window would not close and of course it was raining. On 2/27 an executive representative from Dearborn Mi. called, he listened to the problems with this car and that was it, no apology, nothing, that was the last contact from Ford. February 10, 2003
Dear William Clay Ford Jr.,
I am writing this letter to request an apology. I have owned my 2001 Lincoln LS for almost two years now. I would like to say it has been a pleasure but I cannot say that. In the amount of time I have owned the car it has had to go in for warranty work at least 10 times. It has had to be kept overnight twelve nights due to repairs that could not be completed in one day. The first stretch of work on it kept the car in the dealer for 4 days. When I purchased the car, I emphasized to the salesman because of the work I do, and being on call I need to have the car available or transportation available on a 24/7 basis. This has not been the case. While there have been no true mechanical problems, there have been enough problems with the car to have to keep going back and forth to the dealer.
Before taking the car I brought up a problem I had with the keyless entry system while scuba diving, they made a suggestion of a product called TapLock, this was to allow me to open the car without a key. On the first visit for repair I asked for this product to be installed, I was informed later that day that it could not be installed in this car.
In January of 2002 I was put in contact with a customer representative from Ford. She mentioned 3 options that could be available, an extended warranty, a different vehicle, or money from Ford towards a replacement. I explained a longer warranty would continue an already terrible record on this particular car. A different style of car was out because I chose the Lincoln LS for its styling. An appointment was made for a Saturday visit to the dealer with the manager, when I got there only 2 days after speaking to him I learned he no longer worked there. So going over this with his replacement and a salesman, there was a nearly identical car to my own on the lot and the price that they quoted was nearly the same as mine at purchase. They then came up with a trade in value of $22,500 for my less than 1 year old Lincoln LS, the Ford owner appreciation amount which I learned was $5,000, and another $6,500 I would be right back where I started from. I found this extremely unsatisfactory since another Lincoln dealer in town was advertising a used similar 2001 LS for $6,000 more. I talked to the customer rep that I had spoken to previously, and was asked to give the dealer another chance, the car was intended to be a replacement not a sale for profit. I never heard anything more from the sales people again (I have never received any mailings or communications from the dealer since the day of the sale). The customer rep never followed up with me or checked to see how or if the problem was resolved.
To this date the quality problems still exist. With this list of problems and what I would call the poorest treatment I have ever had, this car has erased all the goodwill of the Thunderbird and 2 Cougars that I have owned. The three previous cars were almost totally free of problems so they set a high standard, but this car brings back the jokes of the YUGO, it has been a personal embarrassment to me, because this car has been the butt of many jokes from coworkers and friends. A coworker had been looking at this model until hearing of all the problems, that person went elsewhere.
D G
CC: Darryl Hazel
I have also sent a copy of this letter to Tom Rodgers of Primedia, publishers of Motor Trend Magazine. Because of their excellent revue of this car and making it Motor Trend Car of the Year 2000 it was major factor in choosing this car. I have no further use of that magazine for future decision making.
Chronology
2/21/01 - Pick up car from dealer showroom.
03-06/01 - Roof head liner came down from wind when moon roof open. When the interior roof head liner blew down it nearly caused an accident at highway speed, the noise was an explosive sound next to my head.
Light out in console, bent light socket.
½ twist in front passenger seatbelt prevents retracting of seatbelt.
Autowipe does not come on in the rain. This problem caused the windshield and the wiper switch, to be replaced. It also accounted for most of the 11 days it was kept overnight in the first year.
11-12/01 - On a vacation trip to the Florida Keys, while crossing 7 Mile bridge, the roof head liner came down again. This time I stopped at a Lincoln dealer in Key West. They said they could not get to it until the following week, when I asked them to document the problem, they declined to do so, and said my dealer in Elkhart could fix it when I got home. Because the roof head liner would not stay attached to the roof this also meant I could not have the moonroof open for the remainder of my vacation. &a This is the letter I posted under Lincoln LS vs Yugo. from the looks of the comments there are quite a few complaints about the LS.
I guess Lincoln's idea of American Luxury is all the FREE coffee you can drink while sitting in the dealer's waiting room while having repairs made. Since this letter was mailed on 2/10 after a 3 week wait for a loaner the heating system was fixed on 2/20-2/21, it had to be kept overnight again. Also the left headlight assembly had to be replaced due to excessive moisture on the inside. On 3/28 the right rear window dropped out of it's track and both rear window regulators had to be replaced, the window would not close and of course it was raining. On 2/27 an executive representative from Dearborn Mi. called, he listened to the problems with this car and that was it, no apology, nothing, that was the last contact from Ford. February 10, 2003
Dear William Clay Ford Jr.,
I am writing this letter to request an apology. Imp;nbsp; While driving back from Florida at the end of my vacation, the CD player said all six CD's in it were all bad at the same time. The CD player was replaced.
They also lubricated a door switch because even with the key out of the ignition, some accessories retained power after the door was opened up.
02/02 - The right front headlight assembly was leaking water and had to be replaced.
12/02 - Right front headlight assembly replaced again due to excessive water in the light.
Rear window defroster button stuck, took into dealer, when they tried to free it, they broke the switch. They replaced the climate control panel.
01-02/03 - Notified dealer that no heat was coming from the floor vent
Comments
The '03 is excellent.
In Ann Arbor, MI the incentive for a returning lessee is $7500. Worth the trip?
Also, I can come up with a X plan PIN.
darinatsesi@hotmail.com
Incentives & X plan are independent. In other words, you get both.
In many states Ford is no longer leasing vehicles. The lease has been replaced by a balloon payment purchase (called RCO program) that has the option of either returning the vehicle at the end of the term of purchasing it for a set price. The primary reason for the extra rebate on the RCO "lease" is that with the balloon payment purchase sales tax for the total vehicle price is due at delivery. Therefore Lincoln has an extra $2K rebate to offset the sales tax and make the balloon payment purchase more attractive.
The RCO program is actually quite attractive, provided that 3 years from now you can obtain a low APR % to finance the baloon payment.
Driving up the MI will not do you any good. If you read the fine print it says "Residency restrictions apply" That is no matter where you purchase the vehicle, you only get the incentives that are in effect where you live.
Just one story, but it sounds not unlike some of the problems we have heard. So, I suspect Ford is not favoring Jags over Lincolns -- they are really just trying to sell as many cars as possible, and build brand loyalty too.
Design wise, at this level of car, we know that Lincoln tried to design the best possible car for the price point -- and I think they succeeded.
Some dealers fail to reduce the pressure from the factory 40+ PSI. Some others don't believe what is on the label inside the forward end of the front door opening, and set the pressure significantly higher.
ANT14, I had a 95 Acura RL.
I always ask the service tech what he/she would recommend for tire pressure when I get a new or used car. They usually suggest about 5 lbs higher than the posted pressure.
Someone in the company is deciding on the tire pressure to specify for a vehicle rated to carry 600-700#. I believe that the legal folk in the company are demanding test results to prove that this is a safe pressure for a loaded vehicle in hot weather.
Since I rarely have more than myself & one other person in the car, I see no advantage in using pressures higher than recommended. I see an annoying disadvantage in the increased harshness.
had a '91 explorer with 70k on original firestone wilderness on them. took it in replace tires at a firestone dealer, and he asked why i wanted new tires. he said most people wouldn't replace tires like that. i said they are 5 1/2 years old, i want new ones. traded my '97 explorer with 50k and same tire type. had plenty of tread left.
I used to drive company cars for years. We got our oil changes for years at Jiffy Lube. At Jiffy Lube I had to always had to ask them not to check my tire air pressure. What always would happen is I pulled into Jiffy Lube with the car and tires hot. The Jiffy experts would then let air out of the tires to bring them down to the specified pressure. However, when the tires cooled off they'd be 3 or 4 lb, under inflated. I never ran into anyone at a Jiffy Lube who seemed to undertand that the tire pressure was supposed to be set with the tires cold.
Also when the Taurus first came out, I'd always end up getting them back from dealer service with the tires 4 or 5 lb under inflated. So one time when I dropped the car off I asked the service advisor to have the tech NOT touch my tires. The surprised writer asked why, so I told him that their techs were underinflating my tires. I was then told that most Taurus drivers were complaining that the Taurus rode too hard so they were dropping the air pressure to make them ride smoother. He was shocked that I wanted my Taurus tires at full pressure.
Check TPs when you test drive any car - cars on a lot can vary wildly. I once drove a new car that handled strangely - turned out the front tires were at 40+ - and the rears were something like 30 . . .
BTW: KBB and Edmunds both show $3,500 rebates - but my dealer today told me $3,000 - wassup?
Cheers,
- Ray
Looking again seriously at '03 Sports . . .
Yes I remember the year this occured, they were riding a bit too hard after a recent (touch up) and they lowered the recommended pressure rating on them.
Usually on sedans, 30-32 is the norm, I just stick to that, and anything below is just rediculous and unnecessary.
Tires: I am sure you guys have already talked about this, but I am looking at replacement for the original 215/60/VR16 Firehawks for my non-sport 2000 LS. Any thoughts on the difference between Michelin Pilot XGT V4 and its Energy MXV4+?
Returning Lincoln-Mercury Lessees get $7,500 toward purchase.
The latest deals went into effect July 9 and I believe that they will we in effect until Sept 2.
The best purchase deal is 0% APR / 60 mo. PLUS $2,000 rebate.
You may want to also look at the new Balloon Payment purchases (i.e. fake lease called RCO program) there are extra incentives in states with sales tax.
- Even if it had gone a while without being changed, most cars nowadays have longer oil change intervals, some close to 10k miles with their oil life indicators. Could synthetic oil sludge up enough in 20k miles to seize the engine?
- Do the 3.0l V6s have any history of oil sludging at all? I know Toyota had a huge problem with their V6 engines, but I can't find any info on a similar problem with the Lincoln engine.
Thanks for any and all info.
I was just looking at another forum where someone posted that they had 109,000 miles on his 2000 LS with a 3.0L V6. He said the engine still felt excellent and he was wondering how many miles it would go without a rebuild.
Being sludged up at 35K sounds fishy, I wonder if the engine is really sludged up or if the dealer is trying to play hardball since your friend didn't get the oil changed there. I'd start by asking to see the inside of the engine and have them show me the "alleged" sludge.
Also, it sounds like your friend had someone else change the oil. I've heard lots of horror stories about shops, including dealers, who do not put in the oil you think your getting. I've heard several stories where someone was paying top dollar for Mobil 1 and the shop was putting in the regular stuff they put in any car. A lot of shops buy motor oil in bulk drums and pump in the same brand and weight oil in every car that they service, no matter what oil is called for in that car.
To make you even more apprehensive, about having your car serviced, I know 2 people who had their oil "changed" at their dealers only to drive off without any oil in their engines. One made it back to the dealer (an import) and all the dealer did was add oil. This person got rid of the car 6 months later so I don't know how long it lasted.
The other had the engine seize up 10 miles down the road, also done at an import dealer, and the dealer started off saying it was her fault for driving the car until it broke.
If you run your engine when it is low on motor oil, the pobability of sludge forming increases unbeliveably!
I found an internet site that talked about how sluge forms. Unfortunately I lost the link.
As a car is driven, contamenants form (ring blowby etc.) and the oil will suspend them. Sluge forms when the oil no longer can suspend the contamenents, so they precipitate out forming sludge.
This info. claimed that running a typical engine for 5,000 miles with the motor oil just 1 quart low increased the amount of sludge formed by hundreds of times. IIRC, 2 quarts low sludge formation went up by something like a thousand times.
Either way, this sounds very much like the dealer is trying to get out of a warranty claim, due in part to Ford Motor Company's directives. By all means, have your friend examine (and photograph, for that matter) this sludge. Might even want to take a sample away in a bottle for independent analysis. Thousands of dollars are on the line here, and the dealers are used to getting their way.
Good luck.
My friend said when the engine had died and he was waiting for the tow truck, he did check the dipstick, and could see some type of thick crud at the bottom of it.
I didn't think there were problems with that engine, my parents have a 3.0l duratec 97 Sable with 100k+ miles on it and they have no problems.
I'd still want a second opinion by an independent mechanic. The engine assembly price they threw out was $4800.
I'll suggest to him to get it analyzed; also, do you think Ford's regional office would be any help? I think he should move up the food chain at Ford to get some answers.
I didn't know sludge could form like that from low oil; mental note to check mine when I get home.
I always replace it with synthetic, Halvoline, it's worked best for me in the past, where I had an incident in a friends car '96 Taurus 3.0L Duratec (his dad replaced the oil, but didn't properly screw the drain plug) and the ONLY way we found out something was wrong was because the oil light lite up and the engine was heating up...Considering we were in the middle of the Everglades, without any real place to call for help, He took the chance and drove it for 15 miles till the next possible stop, and the engine didn't suffer any damage from it.
Overall, company wise, I do not know of there being a problem with engine sludging. As in, this might be an isolated incident probably caused by other factors. It's not a widespread "issue" such as Toyota's 3.0L V6.
Disclosure: I bought a 2000 Lincoln LS8 Sport – and put nearly 40,000 miles on it – so, I may be biased. But I do not now own an LS.
I recently test drove the first ’04 CTS with the Sport package received by my dealer. It also had about every other option – the list (I was told, no sticker on the car) was over $40K. I test drone an ’03 LS8 Sport immediately before driving the CTS. FWIW, here are my impressions:
Price: I am not certain exactly what price the CTS could be purchased for. I am reasonable certain that the LS8 Sport w/moonroof could be purchased (after rebate and discount) for something between $35 and $36,000.
Engine: The LS’s V8 is a wonderful motor. With the full dual exhaust and a freer flow than my 2000 (I had Magnaflows installed on mine within the first 1,000 miles – it originally sounded more like an angry industrial vacuum cleaner than an internal combustion engine) they provide what I look for in a sound track to accompany spirited driving. (Just the right amount of heterodyne V8 beat for me.) With 286 lb./ft. of torque and VVT to spread that well above and below the peak, it is flexible and provides ample power (for me) in any circumstance. With about 200 more pounds to haul, I think it is likely a bit quicker – but I have yet to see a published full test.
Trans.: The SST (Lincoln’s interpretation of a man-u-matic) is a useful device for providing the additional control over shift timing that improves my ability to enjoy said spirited driving. Clearly, it is not a manual – but no manual allows the option of fully automatic shift management when traffic conditions make that more desirable. My understanding is that the new Caddy SUV with this motor and trans. will have such a mode – I was disappointed to learn that the CTS does not receive this even as an option.
Steering / ride / handling. I also prefer the balance (compromise) of the LS Sport suspension tuning to that of the CTS. No idea which would pull higher maximum lateral G force – but I do not explore that close to the limit on public roads.
Seats: Well, here in the deep south, the fact that the LS provides cooling to the leather seat surfaces is really quite a treat.
MPG: Well, does anyone know what the ’04 CTS 3.6 highway EPA rating is? As I said, there was no window sticker on this car – the sales manager had claimed it for his ‘demo’. (Thanks!) The LS8 is rated at 24 – the CTS is probably 1 or 2 mpg better??? Last time I checked, KBB said the MPG ratings had not been updated for the ’04 3.6 . . .
Styling – inside and out: well, that’s a very personal thing. . .
So – If I am able to buy an ’03 LS before the inventory dries up completely, I would do that rather than buy the ’04 CTS. But I did want to try the CTS, now that the motor had been materially improved for ’04.
Again, I mean no offense to anyone of this board. And the CTS is certainly a good car – and quite a departure for Caddy – as the LS was in late ’99. And I applaud the fact that GM will bring the CTS-v to market.
As always – just my $.02 worth . . .
Cheers,
- Ray
Returning to lurking mode – with flame suit zipped up . . .
The CTS is not a bad car, but to me the LS is just a better overall car. Seems from Consumer Reports recent review, they agree. I had several of the same negative and positive feelings about the CTS, LS and G35 that CR did.
My complaints about the CTS are:
You can option yourself to death, the fold down rear seats are an extra cost option, the 2 best paint colors are $750 options. It is very easy to get the sticker price up to $40K, which of course is a V6.
I really don't like the interior. When I first sat in one, it felt big inside, but the longer I spent in it the more confining it felt. In particular the very high belt line and that I had to put the seat all the way down for my head to clear the roof (it had a moonroof) and the transmission tunnel felt very confining, after 15 minutes I felt like I was sitting in a bath tub. I also did not like the look and feel of the interior materials nor the orange display or hard to use knobs on the center stack.
The CTS felt like I could drive it fast, but it just is not the rewarding experince that the LS is to drive, the LS is just plain a better feeling car.
I'm just not a fan of the CTS's exterior design.
Here is what I liked about the CTS:
The auto trannie shifted fast and smoothly, it always felt like I was in the right gear and there is the "sport shift" option. The shift lever has a nice feel to its gear selection, however there is no SST type shifter available.
The driver's seat has a lot of travel, one of the few cars I've driven that I didn't have to put the seat all the way back.
Option flexibility, I like the CTS's classic, pick whatever option and option combination you want. The LS's restricted model arrays is one of my hot buttons, that is I feel Lincoln markeing is trying to force you to buy a more expensive model than you want inorder to get one or two features that you want.
I won't be posting this on the CTS board as the last time I posted something there that suggested that the LS may be better than the CTS in any possible way, they were all over me.
Anyway, every review outside of the original first drive tests indicate that this Lincoln has many great points, but that Lincoln stopped short of achieving the customer experience they targeted. I am, frankly, afraid to make a purchase of this dollar value when all I hear about are poeople's woes with dealerships, transmission problems, windows, CD decks, etc...
Would anyone actually receommend this car to me? Why? Why not?
My wife and I have a 2000 LS V-8. We bought it new, currently have 25,000 miles on it and have enoyed the car quite a bit. Yes, there were a few small hiccups, but I guess I'm lucky in that the dealer is very competent, and took care of the problems.
Love the car, the 2003 is even better, and if it was financially feasable, I'd move up to the newer model in a heartbeat.
The CTS people don't seem to be so touchy as certain other groups. It's refreshing, to say the least. Others would say that they're keeping their heads in the sand, but only time will tell.
That said, thanks to Ray for providing the back-to-back test drive comments. My LS is still running fine, but I pine for what might have been.
Drive well, all.
Make Model May 2003 May 2002 2003 YTD 2002 YTD
Cadillac DeVille 4,866 5,188 28,184 27,909
Lincoln Town Car 5,422 6,650 22,895 25,216
Cadillac CTS 4,651 3,473 21,358 11,237
Lincoln LS 3,176 3,383 14,137 16,190
Cadillac Seville 1,773 1,524 9,494 8,967
Infiniti M45 298 - 1,645 -
Oh yeah, there is that subjective styling preference thing too.....sorry I forgot.
But seriously, once you've put the pedal down on the LS-V8 and really driven the LS, there is no comparison
Communications shut down dahboard & transmission -Replace ABS unit
Replace leaking headlight covers
Replace Rear Power Window actuators
Replace Transmission Shift Switch
Replace Thermostat (an old-fashioned, overheating problem)
Replace rear license plate lights
Reflash transmission programming
Replace chromatic rear view mirror -- blotches
Replace Alternator - failure
Replace Computer - Alternator blew it out
Reprogram Passive Anti Theft System
Tighten Loose battery jumper at Front Firewall
Replace defective A-Pillar Trim
Replace Front Windshield (Lincoln mechanic mistake)
...yet I just bought a 2003 for my wife -- guess it is just normal, first model year problems. The above list is not an exaggeration -- that all really has been repaired on one, single LS V8.
Improperly fitted front ashtray/facia unit -- even the Lincoln who designed the interior could not figure out how to fix this problem that has been part of the car since it rolled off the assembly line
I guess Lincoln's idea of American Luxury is all the FREE coffee you
can drink while sitting in the dealer's waiting room while having
repairs made.
Since this letter was mailed on 2/10 after a 3 week wait for a
loaner the heating system was fixed on 2/20-2/21, it had to be kept
overnight again. Also the left headlight assembly had to be replaced
due to excessive moisture on the inside. On 3/28 the right rear
window dropped out of it's track and both rear window regulators had
to be replaced, the window would not close and of course it was
raining.
On 2/27 an executive representative from Dearborn Mi. called, he
listened to the problems with this car and that was it, no apology,
nothing, that was the last contact from Ford.
February 10, 2003
Dear William Clay Ford Jr.,
I am writing this letter to request an apology. I have owned my 2001
Lincoln LS for almost two years now. I would like to say it has been
a pleasure but I cannot say that.
In the amount of time I have owned the car it has had to go in for
warranty work at least 10 times. It has had to be kept overnight
twelve nights due to repairs that could not be completed in one day.
The first stretch of work on it kept the car in the dealer for 4 days.
When I purchased the car, I emphasized to the salesman because of the
work I do, and being on call I need to have the car available or
transportation available on a 24/7 basis. This has not been the case.
While there have been no true mechanical problems, there have been
enough problems with the car to have to keep going back and forth to
the dealer.
Before taking the car I brought up a problem I had with the keyless
entry system while scuba diving, they made a suggestion of a product
called TapLock, this was to allow me to open the car without a key.
On the first visit for repair I asked for this product to be
installed, I was informed later that day that it could not be
installed in this car.
In January of 2002 I was put in contact with a customer representative
from Ford. She mentioned 3 options that could be available, an
extended warranty, a different vehicle, or money from Ford towards a
replacement. I explained a longer warranty would continue an already
terrible record on this particular car. A different style of car was
out because I chose the Lincoln LS for its styling. An appointment
was made for a Saturday visit to the dealer with the manager, when I
got there only 2 days after speaking to him I learned he no longer
worked there. So going over this with his replacement and a salesman,
there was a nearly identical car to my own on the lot and the price
that they quoted was nearly the same as mine at purchase. They then
came up with a trade in value of $22,500 for my less than 1 year old
Lincoln LS, the Ford owner appreciation amount which I learned was
$5,000, and another $6,500 I would be right back where I started from.
I found this extremely unsatisfactory since another Lincoln dealer in
town was advertising a used similar 2001 LS for $6,000 more. I talked
to the customer rep that I had spoken to previously, and was asked to
give the dealer another chance, the car was intended to be a
replacement not a sale for profit. I never heard anything more from
the sales people again (I have never received any mailings or
communications from the dealer since the day of the sale). The
customer rep never followed up with me or checked to see how or if the
problem was resolved.
To this date the quality problems still exist. With this list of
problems and what I would call the poorest treatment I have ever had,
this car has erased all the goodwill of the Thunderbird and 2 Cougars
that I have owned. The three previous cars were almost totally free
of problems so they set a high standard, but this car brings back the
jokes of the YUGO, it has been a personal embarrassment to me, because
this car has been the butt of many jokes from coworkers and friends.
A coworker had been looking at this model until hearing of all the
problems, that person went elsewhere.
D G
CC: Darryl Hazel
I have also sent a copy of this letter to Tom Rodgers of Primedia,
publishers of Motor Trend Magazine. Because of their excellent revue
of this car and making it Motor Trend Car of the Year 2000 it was
major factor in choosing this car. I have no further use of that
magazine for future decision making.
Chronology
2/21/01 - Pick up car from dealer showroom.
03-06/01 - Roof head liner came down from wind when moon roof open.
When the interior roof head liner blew down it nearly
caused an accident at highway speed, the noise was an
explosive sound next to my head.
Light out in console, bent light socket.
½ twist in front passenger seatbelt prevents retracting
of seatbelt.
Autowipe does not come on in the rain.
This problem caused the windshield and the wiper switch,
to be replaced. It also accounted for most of the 11 days
it was kept overnight in the first year.
11-12/01 - On a vacation trip to the Florida Keys, while crossing 7
Mile bridge, the roof head liner came down again. This
time I stopped at a Lincoln dealer in Key West. They said
they could not get to it until the following week, when I
asked them to document the problem, they declined to do so,
and said my dealer in Elkhart could fix it when I got home.
Because the roof head liner would not stay attached to the
roof this also meant I could not have the moonroof open for
the remainder of my vacation.
&a
This is the letter I posted under Lincoln LS vs Yugo. from the looks of the comments there are quite a few complaints about the LS.
I guess Lincoln's idea of American Luxury is all the FREE coffee you
can drink while sitting in the dealer's waiting room while having
repairs made.
Since this letter was mailed on 2/10 after a 3 week wait for a
loaner the heating system was fixed on 2/20-2/21, it had to be kept
overnight again. Also the left headlight assembly had to be replaced
due to excessive moisture on the inside. On 3/28 the right rear
window dropped out of it's track and both rear window regulators had
to be replaced, the window would not close and of course it was
raining.
On 2/27 an executive representative from Dearborn Mi. called, he
listened to the problems with this car and that was it, no apology,
nothing, that was the last contact from Ford.
February 10, 2003
Dear William Clay Ford Jr.,
I am writing this letter to request an apology. Imp;nbsp;
While driving back from Florida at the end of my vacation,
the CD player said all six CD's in it were all bad at the
same time. The CD player was replaced.
They also lubricated a door switch because even with the
key out of the ignition, some accessories retained power
after the door was opened up.
02/02 - The right front headlight assembly was leaking water and
had to be replaced.
12/02 - Right front headlight assembly replaced again due to
excessive water in the light.
Rear window defroster button stuck, took into dealer, when
they tried to free it, they broke the switch. They
replaced the climate control panel.
01-02/03 - Notified dealer that no heat was coming from the floor
vent