Giowa, I agree with about everything you said in 1798. One concern with a numerically lower OD could be that the tranmission would have more of a tendency to "hunt" or unlock the converter on hills. The 3.9 doesn't have a ton of low end torque, anyway. On low powered, low numerically geared vehicles, the constant converter locking and unlocking on mild grades is annoying.
Can't you use SST to hold car in 5th or 4th, if you are so inclined (no pun intended)? And if you are on interstate doing 65-85 mph (depending upon where you live), the incline has to be moderately steep to cause a downshift from 5th, so you are likely better in 4th anyway?
Forget if LS8 is drag, engine RPM, or computer controlled limited. Was thinking it was the first for the LS8 Sport, second for the LS6 manual, and the last for the LS6 auto and possibly non-Sport LS8. Isn't the LS6's manual 5th direct drive 1:1? Don't know where that engine/tranny combo stands at top speed. I don't have the power curve data in front of me and forget which final drive ratio goes in which ones. I was making a very generalized statement. You may be right depending upon power curve, final drives, co-efficient of drag, etc.
My '96 Impala SS is drag limited to about 140-144 mph. At that speed the engine turns over below red line in fourth, overdrive. In 3rd, direct drive, the engine will reach red line near or at same drag-limited top speed. I could re-gear and uphorsepower the car till hell freezes over and it won't do much good in the face of all the drag.
Don't think I'm so well off just because I keep "moving" from country to country! ;~)
Here in The PRC the EPA figures have been a joke since I started driving. Even our local TV ads advised that your mileage may (read will) be lower. I think it is all that stupid emissions stuff that lowers mileage. I get MUCH better mileage at higher speeds outside the influence of our reformulated fuel. Last year driving west out of Denver, loaded to the gills, in 3rd most of the time, climbing the "hill" at 75 mph, we got 27 mpg. Back using our junk gas, I'm back to low 20's.
I hope Lincoln has some plans for more stylish front and rear end styling. It also needs a warmer and richer looking interior. More wood, richer leather, better colors and less hard plastic. Maybe even a new instrument cluster.
Before everyone gets aflutter, check out the post by KarenS under the Meet the Members part of our Edmunds area. They are asking for input on a change to the structure of the area.
I just made a printout of my bookmarks. I lost all of them last time there was a change, so I'd rather be better safe then sorry. I guess we will be a subfolder under Lincoln Owners club. No big deal.
Has anyone experienced removing their CDs after an all day trip. We did over the weekend and found the CDs felt very hot to the touch... We just got an LS with sports package and Alpine system...is this normal?
I also live in PRC. Last June, I took a trip to Nebraska and back in my dad's 1992 Buick Park Avenue Ultra with Eaton Supercharger. Back in the early 90's, my dad got 28 mpg in the car on mid-grade on the road. Before the trip this summer, the best he could do was about 24 on Calif "gas". The best mileage on the trip was a leg from Kingman, Arizona to San Diego. Filled up in Kingman at "Terrible Herbst" with mid-grade (Higher octane than in Calif where Premium is a max of 92 octane). Mileage was 30 mpg on Arizona gas. Car was loaded with 5 people and all the luggage you could load in a Big Buick. So I think California gas has an equivalent of lower BTU and alot of it has ethanol for a lower flame temp (NOX reduction). I have the Manual V6 LS. Because of the non-overdrive Getrag, it will never win the Mobil Economy Run. Rpm at 75mph is about 3000, just at the start of the torque peak. Needless to say, you don't have to downshift for any hill smaller than Pikes Peak. West of the desert near El Centro, Calif on I-8 is Mountain Springs Grade. On a hot summer's day, desert floor temps easily hit around 110 degrees. This hill really separates the men from the boys, or shall I say the SUVs and Civics from the real cars.Water barrels are every few feet up the hill as are cars with blown hoses. Before the LS, in my 5 speed Cressida, I'd be in third gear by the top. The LS takes it in fifth gear without downshifting. But I've yet to top 20 mpg around town. No trips yet. Coneinator Out.
I have some type of Millenium Emblems, put out by Lincoln, on the sides just past the rear windows. My car is a 2000 LS. Does anyone else have these emblems or know how many LSs have them? Thanks. Joe
Sometimes a Dealer or a Sales Region will run a "special edition" comprised of certain options and colors. We did not have a "Millenium Edition or Model" from the factory. Dick
O.K., before you all throw me out for my questions, let me say that I am aloyal LSer. I love my 01 V8 sport.
Now, for the questions: How does the LS compare with an Acura 3.2TL (other than the TL being aboiur 9K cheaper)? Spec wise thet look pretty close. Did anyone drive both?
Now, same question but with a Mitsubishi Diamante. I saw one today and the styling looked very similar to my LS. How do they compare? Did anyone drive both?
TL is a nice car, no question. But it is Front Wheel Drive. End of story.
LS (especially the V6 Manual) is a near perfect 50/50 front to rear weight balance due to its Rear wheel drive configuration. All things being equal, FWD is inferior handling wise to RWD. Ever seen a FWD BMW? or FWD Mercedes? Or FWD Porsche or Ferrari? Of course not. And where did you get that $9k price difference? Last time I checked, a loaded V6 Manual Sport LS cost somewhere in the exact same ballpark as a loaded 3.2 TL
The Diamante (in my opinion) is a good car, but doesnt seem to be a great car in any category. The suspension is average to less than average, in my test drives. The 6 cylinder engine is good, but not awe inspiring. Not sure on pricing on this car.
I have only one response, RWD vs. FWD. After 18 years with the wrong wheels doing the propulsion job, I'm extatic to be back in the predictable RWD platform.
Even though the car is not awesome, you should be able to get it for an awesome enough discount to make it worth it. They are available below invoice after the rebate. If you can't get one cheap, just skip it and move on to something else, like an LS.
I just got back from another business trip and read with horror about the various Lincoln LS's seen with cloth/vinyl etc. roofs. Anyone who sees one at a dealer, please let me know who that dealer is at jroger19@ford.com.
Also, for those of you in the NY area, remember that Lincoln is hosting an owners meeting at the NY Auto Show next Tuesday at 5PM. If you are interested in attending please contact Brian at Brian.Gowing@llsoc.com.
Also noticed the comments about Gerry, the Lincoln designer. I can assure you he is a great guy and a fine designer...although he could probably use a bit of media training. He will be great for Lincoln and the future of the LS.
I test drove both these cars in late 2000 before buying a 2000 LS V8 Sport w/moonroof, CD changer, and upgraded tires. I liked the TL, a nice little car, it was smooth, the autostick worked well, it was quiet, quite a nice little piece of work. Ultimately, it was much more cramped to me than the LS, especially headroom, the seats were less comfortable(esp thigh support and lumbar support), the LS felt faster and smoother, and I prefered the RWD by a large margin, and the absolute grip and handling of the LS was better. I felt I was getting more car for my money, it fit me better, was more comfortable, and looked better to me. I really wanted to buy the CL-S, but that had even less headroom. I tried really hard to fit into both of the Acura's with no luck, and both appeared to be fine cars, but I'm very happy with the LS and prefer it. Would have been nice to have the nav system in the LS, but it would just be a toy to me, I don't drive all over the US extensively. A compass wouldn't hurt my LS though.
I paid close to what I would have paid for a TL for my LS, so cost wasn't an issue. The new TL-S is interesting, but still has the same dimensional and FWD issues to me, but I bet it'd be a fun car.
My LS has been almost Acura reliable (or should I say Acura reputation reliable, never having owned one?), so far only one problem with the cooling fan, the recall for ball joints and reflash, and an intermittent radio problem that will soon be fixed. No tranny problems before the reflash, no window problems (knock on fake wood, or wud), etc.
I'm really sorry to rain on your parade, but I've got the V-8, non sport. Since the snow has pretty much melted, and the roads are dry again, the traffic flow is smoother and the average is now at 18.8 MPG.
Thanks, Leadfoot. You didn't rain too hard on my parade. I haven't really averaged my fuel mileage over a long period but based on the computer readings after each tankful, my average is probably similar to yours. I just have never gotten over 25 on open interstate cruising. On the other hand, I have never gotten less than 16 or 17 around town, either. Fuel regulations, traffic patterns, terrain, and driving styles have a huge impact. If all of those conditions were identical, there would not likely be 2% mileage difference between any of us on this board.
Along with about oh... 300 bhp and a 6 speed manual, (2003, please- my lease will be up then) I'd actually love to see brushed aluminum accents replacing the wood in the sport models... just look at the new T-bird's center console and interior trim for a preview. Wow.
Has anyone ever seen or heard of aluminum dash kits?
Interesting article in Forbes about "Cult Brands". IMHO, the converstations on this board place the LS into cult status. Are we the reason for the cult or just unwitting tools of Lincoln marketing?
I drove the TL & many other cars before buying the LS. The TL was the best of the FWD 4 door sedans, but as previously mentioned lacked headroom, only had a small pass through instead of a fold down rear seat and was engineered to Japanese perfection (translated that means almost devoid of anty personality making it boring). The TL probably felt the best of the FWD cars due to it's wishbone front suspension. Interestingly Honda's new models are going to McPherson struts. Honda's engineers must be determined to remove what little personality their cars have left.
As brucelinc mentioned in his last post, traffic patterns will have a great impact on your average MPG. The really great highway MPG that I've mentioned was more or less a "two-time" experience. While on vacation last year, I had the opportunity to cruise in rather light traffic on I-95 between northern Virginia and northern North Carolina, and then on I-40 east, to Wilmington, NC. That was the first time, the second time being the return trip. This was a stretch of about 240-260 miles at a steady 65-70 MPH. Even while on the local interstates around my home, the traffic is too dense, and the trips too short to stretch out the average MPG to that level. Still, however, I'm very impressed with the overall gas mileage of this car. Just for grins, I'll toss this in....I live in the "burbs", where even the nearest gas station is 5-6 miles away. Once, I went to fill up the car, and reset the computer for the return home. As usual, the computer takes a little time to reset itself and start giving a steady MPG figure. During this time, I'm "feather footing" it like crazy. The road back home is fairly level, with only a few undulations, and the speed limit is 40 MPH. I managed to get the reading up to 39.8 MPG for a couple of miles before I got home. Couldn't make it to 40, no matter how hard I tried !!!
I was flipping channels and stopped at a news story. The picture next to the news anchor's head was the front end of a LS from 3/4 view. I was confused as I listened to the announcer who was talking about GM auto sales, but at the end they also mentioned Ford sales figures. Just thought it was interresting that they chose the LS for this.
I had the same opinion until I did a lot of SST driving. The SST feature I like most is the avoidance of unwanted and unpredictable kick-downs. It annoys the hell out of me to apply 1/2 > 3/4 throttle in an expressway passing situation and get a neck-snapping 5-4 or 5-4-3 kickdown. I call it 'lack of acceleration modulation'; it's either not enough, or WAY too much.
When in SST mode, the transmission does not change gears regardless of throttle opening. (other than the low speed >60% 2-1 shift) This provides me, and my passengers, with a much smoother ride, and me with more control over what the transmission does.
If first gear start, and a normal run through all five gears, is wanted the SST allows this if D5 is selected.
The tap-up and tap-down is an enjoyable feature. It also has the advantage that the shift lever is always in the same position.
We own them both. I have an LS8 and my wife, a 3.2 TL, both 2000 models. LS feels much more powerful and sticks to the road better. In my opinion, TL is roomier inside, and auto stick, which is standard on the TL is not on my LS8 and is a fun feature.
Build quality of the TL is far superior. Since we have had tht TL, has not been back to the dealer for anything. Wish I could say the same thing for my LS8 (I have lost count on how many times it has been backto the dealer for one thing or another).
Both are fun to drive, just different. One is rear wheel drive (the LS) and one front wheel (the TL) so driving experience is much different.
Personally, I think it is a matter of preference. TL is several thousand dollars less expensive then the LS.
It appears Lincoln sales are softening along with others as I read the Wixom plant is closed this week and the plant that makes Navigator/Expedition was eliminating a shift and to the tune of 65,000 vehicles
I am not Giowa's Mom, so please forgive me for jumping in here. However, I do not see the benefit of SST. I have driven SST and also put a lot of miles on the Chrysler autostick. I shift manually at least 75% of the time and I purposely avoided SST because I felt that the standard sequential 1-2-3-D4 gave me better (and more natural) control. Plus, 1 is always a first gear start, regardless of throttle position. For me, the "feel" of the position of the shifter is important. SST shifter position is the same for each gear. Is this a matter of personal preference, or am I missing something?
I haven't gotten back to respond to the answers to my post #1731 regarding the moan and vibrations. The moan is as you described mid fifties in 5th gear and mid forties in 4th gear. It is not unbearable, I was just concerned that it might be an indication of a larger problem. As for the vibration, I took the LS to a tire shop and they tested the wheels and tires and both were okay except that the wheels were extremely out of balance. The car rides more smoothly now, but not perfectly - possibly it is just the characteristics of the Firestones. The steering (too light at highway speeds) is better, but I am still going to ask the dealer to check on it at my 5000 mile service
I have the four speaker premium sound system. I took the car to Circuit City to check on installing the Polks. Their price for the speakers was $221(buy 1 pair at regular price $147.49 and get 2nd pair at 50% off) for four dx-7s, $10 for speaker harnesses, $72 for installation, and tax. However, the salesperson recommended Affinity 5752CF s because their tweeters can be adjusted to direct the sound to the listener. He thought because of the LS's speaker location that the sound with the Affinities would better reach ear level. I had four of them installed for $276 plus tax. The sound is much improved and better reaches ear level. I live in Maryland.
I can quickly change gears with just a flick of the wrist (one or even two or three at once) without having to figure out how far to move the shifter. To me it's a little more convenient.
Not sure if 3 on a non-SST starts out in 3rd or not. SST will start out in 3rd (or 2nd).
SST can hold a higher gear (3, 4 or 5) and will never automatically downshift.
SST gives you a little more direct control (except for that first 2-1 downshift). Non-SST will still downshift based on throttle input. You can still force the SST to start in 1st by starting in D5 then shifting to SST mode. I don't see where one has a huge advantage over the other. I think it mostly comes down to ergonomics and personal preference.
Thanks for the explanation. You are right, of course, that the non-SST transmission will kick down if it is in D4 or D5. I guess I never found that to be objectionable or unpredictable. In slow traffic, I am frequently in "2" or "3" and would not get a kick-down. If I am in D5 and need a little acceleration but don't want to snap my passengers heads off, I slip it to D4 to accelerate or feed about 2/3 throttle for a "soft" kickdown.
I can understand your point, though, of SST's ability to avoid kickdowns altogether and letting the torque do the work thus smoothing out the acceleration.
I have liked the 5R55N from the first time I drove it because it was the most predictable to modulate with the throttle of any automatic I had ever driven.
Gee....I thought everyone on this board always agreed. :-)
First of all - I love my S... but I have had a couple of serious problems.... One of which - several of you might find interesting:
My dealer could not find anything wrong with the stock Firestone 16" Firehawks that came on my 2000 V8 Lincoln LS - despite my adamant concern and complaints of vibration before and several times after the purchase. I was told nothing could be done because the tires were balanced correctly and did not show any problem according to the dealer's shop.
So, at my 5000 mile check-up I had my own tire shop rotate and check the tires for the source of the vibration.
They used a special Hunter balance machine (which my dealer does not have) that performed a road force measurement test on the tires. This test revealed that three of the four were out of specification! i.e.: The pressure of the road on the tires revealed weakness in the tires which allowed a harmonic vibration to be created that increased with the vehicle's speed.
So, armed with the report from my tire shop (Kauffman Tires in Atlanta) my LM dealer (Frank Jackson LM ) agreed to allow me to replace the Firestones with a new set of Pirelli's (which are the LS's big brother's - the Jaguar S type's standard tire.) - since they could now make a claim against Ford/Firestone.
Bottom line..... No more vibration! GREAT RIDE!
From my experience, I do not have much to say in defense of the Firestones.
The Pirelli's are a worthy tire for the LS... the Firehawks are not... it's no wonder they're not standard on the Jags.
We've had this discussion before. I have the non-SST shifter. If 1, 2 or 3 is selected, that is the only gear available. If you shift to 1 @ 70mph, it won't downshift until the rpm's are at a safe level. Once in 1st, that is the only gear you get, right up to the rev limiter. The only difference is that I can select a 1st gear start without >60% throttle. Both shifters allow for upshifts and kick-downs in D4 & D5. I personally prefer the tactile feel of "running up" through the gears. I have missed 2nd and gone straight to 3rd a couple of times .
Well... my Autumn Red 5 speed LS now has a whopping 1150 miles on it. And I just love it. The only problem has been the radio. And that's fixed now. The car handles so good, it's such a feeling of confidence. And so comfortable. And, stanny1: I am already starting to feel the engine and tranny loosen up. I'm driving more aggressively and the car is a blast. Today, for the first time, I really pushed it from a stop. Went to 5 grand or more in 1st, then same in second and poof I was doin 60 mph and slipped it into third. I wasn't counting, but I swear it didn't feel like 7 seconds. I now regularly choose the 2 lane, twisty-turny-hilly route to Santa Cruz from home instead of the freeway. It's so much more fun in the LS. Oh, and I also had a chance to use the fold down seats when I had to pick up a bunch of frames and glass. The Acura TL or anything else without fold-down seats would not have done the job.
toopid (tire vibration): Even considering everything I said above, I still regret that Lincoln ships the LS with Firestone tires. Your results tend to confirm my suspicions that these are just not quality, world-class tires. Interestingly, I saw a 2002 Explorer at my dealer over the weekend. Firestone tires? NAH! The new Explorer now sports prominent, raised-white-lettered MICHELINs.
Has anyone else got this month's copy of Motor Trend? They've got several drawings of the latest Lincoln concept car - a 4 door (well, the rear doors are tiny) suicide-door configuration 4 or 5 seat convertible - based on the LS chassis. MT claims that Lincoln design chief, Gerry McGovern, aims to make Lincoln's design theme be partly based on the look of the '61 Continental. *And* they claim that we'll be seeing a preview of this new theme in the face-lifted LS. Particular mention is made that the LS tail end will borrow strongly from the '61 Continental. Interesting. We'll see. Neither my wife nor I was very impressed with the look of the drawings, BTW. Too boxy she said. To me, the front end looked to be derived from the recent concepts from Cadillac - very angular. The rear did have a nice look - and the Continental influence was plain. But it was too far removed from the present LS look.
H&H radio (Ford's one and only authorized radio repair shop in this area) finally called me about me radio. I told them what the problem was and that I had expected to hear from them Monday. Anyway I told them the car was at home and to call my wife to setup a time for them to come out. The technician, Malcolm, called my wife around noon today. He told the wife that they NEVER go to a customers location to fix radios. He then said the problem was Pavilion's and not their's. The wife corrected him by saying that it was H&H radio that reparied the radio and not Pavilion. At this point the technician, Malcolm, became defensive about the whole thing and my wife ended the phone call with him and called me. I was furious that a Ford subcontractor was being rude to my wife. I called Pavilion and told the service manager I would be at the dealership this afternoon and I wanted to have a conference call with H&H radio to find what they had to say about this incident. H&H would not return the phone calls from Pavilion this afternoon. The owner did leave me a voice mail at the office at 3PM telling me would not be able to do a conference call and he understood that I had a problem with Pavilion. I did meet with the service manager and he was very apologetic about this situation and that I was not the only one having problems with H&H radio. He is meeting with a Ford service rep tomorrow and H&H radio will be discussed. It seems H&H radio wants to change they way they do business. In the past they pulled out a defective radio, replaced it with a good one and shipped the bad out for repair. Now they want to pull the defective radio out, ship it out for repair and when it comes back put in back in. Doesn't make sense to me. The bottom line is: my radio is still broke and a Ford subcontractor was very rude to my wife. I am supposed to take my car back tomorrow to get fixed. I am trying not to get my hopes up since I am dealing with Lincoln-Mercury and Pavilion (the same dealer who supposedly got into trouble for selling remote starters on all LS's).
toopidd: Can you describe the vibration that you were having with the Firestones? I've been bothered by a vibration since day one. It's most noticible in the 70-80 range with a peak at 73 MPH, which, of couse, is the speed traffic on the interstates seems to flow at around here.
I've had my LS in to the dealer several times complaining about the vibration. They re-balanced and rotated the Firestones several times without accomplishing much of anything. About 6 montsh ago the dealer's shop forman went for a ride with me and agreed that there was a vibration. He commented that is felt like an out of round tire. They ended up replacing the Firestones with Goodyears. The vibration is reduced with the Goodyears but it's still there and peaks at roughly the same speeds. I took it in again to have a Lincoln field engineer test drive it. His conclusion was that any vibrations or noises are within spec. I'm still not happy, sounds like I need to find a tire shop with a Hunter.
Just got back from a 2-day business trip. Was glad to see a lot of LSs on the roads and in parking lots.
You guys did a good job discussing SST above. I got flamed badly the last time I wandered into this discussion. Think I said something like "I thought the SST is gimmicky" or something to that effect. I have an LS8 Sport and rarely use SST. I have a 5-speed manual in my business car. I much prefer it to SST. (My mom, who has an LS6 non-Sport, tried my SST once. She didn't like it. As she put it, the reason for a good automatic is to let you focus on driving while it focuses on the proper gear. If you have to focus on the gears, why wouldn't you want a manual? IMHO, as with most things, dear old mom is right again. But my mom is also nearing 70 and really into birding. She wants to spend her time looking outside the car at scenery enjoying her retirement. That is why I picked out a loaded LS6 with sunroof. She absolutely adores sunroof. Her first one.)
Received the 2000 Ford stockholders Annual Report in mail. A small picture of LS, on p. 78. Page 25 shows Lincoln sold 203,141 vehicles in 2000, 99% in North America. For "New Products/Services for 2000/2001", it lists only "Blackwood" & "Navigator". Why no mention of LS?
TAKE NOTE: Found a couple small items in the text discussing LS. One most interesting on page 11:
"Earlier this year, Lincoln and Edmunds.com invited a group of web-savvy LS owners to an event at Wild Rivers Water Park in California. There the customers could put faces on the names they'd met in a Lincoln chat room and push their personal vehicles to the limit on three professionally designed road courses."
giowa: I think I missed something. When using the SST in the most natural and intuitive way; i.e. move lever from P to D5, it behaves exactly as the non-SST, it does the gear selection, letting you focus on driving. The SST merely provides the option of going either way.
"As she put it, the reason for a good automatic is to let you focus on driving while it focuses on the proper gear. If you have to focus on the gears, why wouldn't you want a manual?"
Did your Mom find the option distracting? Would it trouble her if the SST were no-charge, standard equipment?
I asked my salesman what non-enthusiasts thought of the SST feature on the Sport. He shrugged & said that they just ignore it.
A very important and often overlooked issue is tire to wheel indexing.
Original equipment tire/wheel assemblies match the high spot of the tire with the low spot of the wheel. Note the piece of yellow tape on the tires of new vehicles not yet prepped. On Ford machined wheels, the tape is usually matched with the valve stem.
Every replacement tire I've purchased has a mark, usually a red or yellow 1/4" spot on the sidewall. It is well worthwhile to have the tire dealer align this with the wheel valve stem hole. If they inadvertently mount the tire 180 degrees off this mark, there's a good chance that the tire will vibrate even if perfectly balanced.
Toopidd, your post is great information. I had no vibration problems with the Firehawks but replaced them for other reasons. However, prior experience has shown me that balancing equipment and tire "experts" vary wildly. Sometimes balancing equipment is not set up and calibrated correctly at some shops. Other times, the operator has been poorly trained or just doesn't care. The road force measurement would be totally beyond the scope of many shops.
I too had a tire vibration in my 2001 LS at @ 72MPH. Simple tire balancing did not help. My dealer (Martin Family FLM, Morganton, NC) has the Hunter balancing machine. They found that one of the tires was too badly weighted to correct with weights. They had to replace one of the tires. Also, the other three tires were not indexed to the rim (not matched up to require the least weight). I now have no more tire vibration.
Make sure, if you have this problem, to mention it to the service department as soon as possible after getting the car. After so many miles the warranty for wheel balancing expires.
I actually prefer "manually" shifting my mom's LS6 auto non-Sport more than my SST. If I had my druthers, I'd say make SST a standalone option. That way people could buy Sport Pkg either with or without it. Give me a 6-speed manual LS8 any day!!!
Another personal preference for SST would be to hae the full shift pattern simultaneously available. Now the SST owner can only go either SST to the right or D5 or D4 on left. I want D1-D2-D3 on left as well. Think great makes like BMW, Audi, and others provide full shift pattern in addition to their versions of SST. (Might also be nice to reverse SST and regular shift pattern. IMHO, more natural to have SST on left side. Pull lever toward you to engage SST, not push it away from you to engage.)
I too had a tire vibration in my 2001 LS at @ 72MPH. Simple tire balancing did not help. My dealer (Martin Family FLM, Morganton, NC) has the Hunter balancing machine. They found that one of the tires was too badly weighted to correct with weights. They had to replace one of the tires. Also, the other three tires were not indexed to the rim (not matched up to require the least weight). I now have no more tire vibration.
Make sure, if you have this problem, to mention it to the service department as soon as possible after getting the car. After so many miles the warranty for wheel balancing expires.
I would assume that most dealers don't have top of the line balancing equipment. After the initial service I don't consider this to be warranty work (unless the tire is defective). I was going to be charged some ridiculous amount to rotate and balance the wheels so I went to Olson Tire and they did it about half the price and gave me a lot more confidence too. I watched what they did and it resulted in about half as much weight as the wheels had originally. They also used stick on weights so the 17 inch wheels did not get any more scarred up than they already were. I do understand that if there is bad vibration from the start there is a good chance it is a defect, but for most wheel and tire problems, I would think a dealer is the last place to go for a solution.
Comments
Leadfoot, please tell me you have the V6. I can't recall from your earlier posts. If you are getting 28.5 from the V8, I want some of your luck!
Bruce
Thanks Tom and Dick!
Brian
My '96 Impala SS is drag limited to about 140-144 mph. At that speed the engine turns over below red line in fourth, overdrive. In 3rd, direct drive, the engine will reach red line near or at same drag-limited top speed. I could re-gear and uphorsepower the car till hell freezes over and it won't do much good in the face of all the drag.
Here in The PRC the EPA figures have been a joke since I started driving. Even our local TV ads advised that your mileage may (read will) be lower. I think it is all that stupid emissions stuff that lowers mileage. I get MUCH better mileage at higher speeds outside the influence of our reformulated fuel. Last year driving west out of Denver, loaded to the gills, in 3rd most of the time, climbing the "hill" at 75 mph, we got 27 mpg. Back using our junk gas, I'm back to low 20's.
It also needs a warmer and richer looking interior. More wood, richer leather, better colors and less hard plastic. Maybe even a new instrument cluster.
Brian
Tom
Bill
The best mileage on the trip was a leg from Kingman, Arizona to San Diego. Filled up in Kingman at "Terrible Herbst" with mid-grade (Higher octane than in Calif where Premium is a max of 92 octane). Mileage was 30 mpg on Arizona gas. Car was loaded with 5 people and all the luggage you could load in a Big Buick. So I think California gas has an equivalent of lower BTU and alot of it has ethanol for a lower flame temp (NOX reduction).
I have the Manual V6 LS. Because of the non-overdrive Getrag, it will never win the Mobil Economy Run. Rpm at 75mph is about 3000, just at the start of the torque peak. Needless to say, you don't have to downshift for any hill smaller than Pikes Peak. West of the desert near El Centro, Calif on I-8 is Mountain Springs Grade. On a hot summer's day, desert floor temps easily hit around 110 degrees. This hill really separates the men from the boys, or shall I say the SUVs and Civics from the real cars.Water barrels are every few feet up the hill as are cars with blown hoses. Before the LS, in my 5 speed Cressida, I'd be in third gear by the top. The LS takes it in fifth gear without downshifting. But I've yet to top 20 mpg around town. No trips yet. Coneinator Out.
Dick
Now, for the questions: How does the LS compare with an Acura 3.2TL (other than the TL being aboiur 9K cheaper)? Spec wise thet look pretty close. Did anyone drive both?
Now, same question but with a Mitsubishi Diamante. I saw one today and the styling looked very similar to my LS. How do they compare? Did anyone drive both?
Thanks
LS (especially the V6 Manual) is a near perfect 50/50 front to rear weight balance due to its Rear wheel drive configuration. All things being equal, FWD is inferior handling wise to RWD. Ever seen a FWD BMW? or FWD Mercedes? Or FWD Porsche or Ferrari? Of course not.
And where did you get that $9k price difference? Last time I checked, a loaded V6 Manual Sport LS cost somewhere in the exact same ballpark as a loaded 3.2 TL
The Diamante (in my opinion) is a good car, but doesnt seem to be a great car in any category. The suspension is average to less than average, in my test drives. The 6 cylinder engine is good, but not awe inspiring. Not sure on pricing on this car.
If you can't get one cheap, just skip it and move on to something else, like an LS.
Also, for those of you in the NY area, remember that Lincoln is hosting an owners meeting at the NY Auto Show next Tuesday at 5PM. If you are interested in attending please contact Brian at Brian.Gowing@llsoc.com.
Also noticed the comments about Gerry, the Lincoln designer. I can assure you he is a great guy and a fine designer...although he could probably use a bit of media training. He will be great for Lincoln and the future of the LS.
I paid close to what I would have paid for a TL for my LS, so cost wasn't an issue. The new TL-S is interesting, but still has the same dimensional and FWD issues to me, but I bet it'd be a fun car.
My LS has been almost Acura reliable (or should I say Acura reputation reliable, never having owned one?), so far only one problem with the cooling fan, the recall for ball joints and reflash, and an intermittent radio problem that will soon be fixed. No tranny problems before the reflash, no window problems (knock on fake wood, or wud), etc.
Bruce
Has anyone ever seen or heard of aluminum dash kits?
The NY Auto Show Owners Meeting is WEDNESDAY, April 11th, from 5:00pm to 6:00pm.
Brian
My guess is that some marketing/product planners believe that some customers would have a negative reaction to the feature. What is your experience?
I drove the TL & many other cars before buying the LS. The TL was the best of the FWD 4 door sedans, but as previously mentioned lacked headroom, only had a small pass through instead of a fold down rear seat and was engineered to Japanese perfection (translated that means almost devoid of anty personality making it boring). The TL probably felt the best of the FWD cars due to it's wishbone front suspension. Interestingly Honda's new models are going to McPherson struts. Honda's engineers must be determined to remove what little personality their cars have left.
While on vacation last year, I had the opportunity to cruise in rather light traffic on I-95 between northern Virginia and northern North Carolina, and then on I-40 east, to Wilmington, NC. That was the first time, the second time being the return trip. This was a stretch of about 240-260 miles at a steady 65-70 MPH.
Even while on the local interstates around my home, the traffic is too dense, and the trips too short to stretch out the average MPG to that level. Still, however, I'm very impressed with the overall gas mileage of this car.
Just for grins, I'll toss this in....I live in the "burbs", where even the nearest gas station is 5-6 miles away. Once, I went to fill up the car, and reset the computer for the return home. As usual, the computer takes a little time to reset itself and start giving a steady MPG figure. During this time, I'm "feather footing" it like crazy. The road back home is fairly level, with only a few undulations, and the speed limit is 40 MPH. I managed to get the reading up to 39.8 MPG for a couple of miles before I got home. Couldn't make it to 40, no matter how hard I tried !!!
When in SST mode, the transmission does not change gears regardless of throttle opening. (other than the low speed >60% 2-1 shift) This provides me, and my passengers, with a much smoother ride, and me with more control over what the transmission does.
If first gear start, and a normal run through all five gears, is wanted the SST allows this if D5 is selected.
The tap-up and tap-down is an enjoyable feature. It also has the advantage that the shift lever is always in the same position.
Build quality of the TL is far superior. Since we have had tht TL, has not been back to the dealer for anything. Wish I could say the same thing for my LS8 (I have lost count on how many times it has been backto the dealer for one thing or another).
Both are fun to drive, just different. One is rear wheel drive (the LS) and one front wheel (the TL) so driving experience is much different.
Personally, I think it is a matter of preference. TL is several thousand dollars less expensive then the LS.
Bruce
I have the four speaker premium sound system. I took the car to Circuit City to check on installing the Polks. Their price for the speakers was $221(buy 1 pair at regular price $147.49 and get 2nd pair at 50% off) for four dx-7s, $10 for speaker harnesses, $72 for installation, and tax. However, the salesperson recommended Affinity 5752CF s because their tweeters can be adjusted to direct the sound to the listener. He thought because of the LS's speaker location that the sound with the Affinities would better reach ear level. I had four of them installed for $276 plus tax. The sound is much improved and better reaches ear level. I live in Maryland.
Thanks for all of your help!
I can quickly change gears with just a flick of the wrist (one or even two or three at once) without having to figure out how far to move the shifter. To me it's a little more convenient.
Not sure if 3 on a non-SST starts out in 3rd or not. SST will start out in 3rd (or 2nd).
SST can hold a higher gear (3, 4 or 5) and will never automatically downshift.
SST gives you a little more direct control (except for that first 2-1 downshift). Non-SST will still downshift based on throttle input. You can still force the SST to start in 1st by starting in D5 then shifting to SST mode. I don't see where one has a huge advantage over the other. I think it mostly comes down to ergonomics and personal preference.
I can understand your point, though, of SST's ability to avoid kickdowns altogether and letting the torque do the work thus smoothing out the acceleration.
I have liked the 5R55N from the first time I drove it because it was the most predictable to modulate with the throttle of any automatic I had ever driven.
Gee....I thought everyone on this board always agreed. :-)
My dealer could not find anything wrong with the stock Firestone 16" Firehawks that came on my 2000 V8 Lincoln LS - despite my adamant concern and complaints of vibration before and several times after the purchase. I was told nothing could be done because the tires were balanced correctly and did not show any problem according to the dealer's shop.
So, at my 5000 mile check-up I had my own tire shop rotate and check the tires for the source of the vibration.
They used a special Hunter balance machine (which my dealer does not have) that performed a road force measurement test on the tires. This test revealed that three of the four were out of specification! i.e.: The pressure of the road on the tires revealed weakness in the tires which allowed a harmonic vibration to be created that increased with the vehicle's speed.
So, armed with the report from my tire shop (Kauffman Tires in Atlanta) my LM dealer (Frank Jackson LM ) agreed to allow me to replace the Firestones with a new set of Pirelli's (which are the LS's big brother's - the Jaguar S type's standard tire.) - since they could now make a claim against Ford/Firestone.
Bottom line..... No more vibration! GREAT RIDE!
From my experience, I do not have much to say in defense of the Firestones.
The Pirelli's are a worthy tire for the LS... the Firehawks are not... it's no wonder they're not standard on the Jags.
For more information take a look at:
http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/balance/4159T/index.htm
And, stanny1: I am already starting to feel the engine and tranny loosen up. I'm driving more aggressively and the car is a blast. Today, for the first time, I really pushed it from a stop. Went to 5 grand or more in 1st, then same in second and poof I was doin 60 mph and slipped it into third. I wasn't counting, but I swear it didn't feel like 7 seconds. I now regularly choose the 2 lane, twisty-turny-hilly route to Santa Cruz from home instead of the freeway. It's so much more fun in the LS. Oh, and I also had a chance to use the fold down seats when I had to pick up a bunch of frames and glass. The Acura TL or anything else without fold-down seats would not have done the job.
toopid (tire vibration): Even considering everything I said above, I still regret that Lincoln ships the LS with Firestone tires. Your results tend to confirm my suspicions that these are just not quality, world-class tires. Interestingly, I saw a 2002 Explorer at my dealer over the weekend. Firestone tires? NAH! The new Explorer now sports prominent, raised-white-lettered MICHELINs.
Has anyone else got this month's copy of Motor Trend? They've got several drawings of the latest Lincoln concept car - a 4 door (well, the rear doors are tiny) suicide-door configuration 4 or 5 seat convertible - based on the LS chassis. MT claims that Lincoln design chief, Gerry McGovern, aims to make Lincoln's design theme be partly based on the look of the '61 Continental. *And* they claim that we'll be seeing a preview of this new theme in the face-lifted LS. Particular mention is made that the LS tail end will borrow strongly from the '61 Continental. Interesting. We'll see. Neither my wife nor I was very impressed with the look of the drawings, BTW. Too boxy she said. To me, the front end looked to be derived from the recent concepts from Cadillac - very angular. The rear did have a nice look - and the Continental influence was plain. But it was too far removed from the present LS look.
Well, that's all folks!
George
The bottom line is: my radio is still broke and a Ford subcontractor was very rude to my wife.
I am supposed to take my car back tomorrow to get fixed. I am trying not to get my hopes up since I am dealing with Lincoln-Mercury and Pavilion (the same dealer who supposedly got into trouble for selling remote starters on all LS's).
I've had my LS in to the dealer several times complaining about the vibration. They re-balanced and rotated the Firestones several times without accomplishing much of anything. About 6 montsh ago the dealer's shop forman went for a ride with me and agreed that there was a vibration. He commented that is felt like an out of round tire. They ended up replacing the Firestones with Goodyears. The vibration is reduced with the Goodyears but it's still there and peaks at roughly the same speeds. I took it in again to have a Lincoln field engineer test drive it. His conclusion was that any vibrations or noises are within spec. I'm still not happy, sounds like I need to find a tire shop with a Hunter.
You guys did a good job discussing SST above. I got flamed badly the last time I wandered into this discussion. Think I said something like "I thought the SST is gimmicky" or something to that effect. I have an LS8 Sport and rarely use SST. I have a 5-speed manual in my business car. I much prefer it to SST. (My mom, who has an LS6 non-Sport, tried my SST once. She didn't like it. As she put it, the reason for a good automatic is to let you focus on driving while it focuses on the proper gear. If you have to focus on the gears, why wouldn't you want a manual? IMHO, as with most things, dear old mom is right again. But my mom is also nearing 70 and really into birding. She wants to spend her time looking outside the car at scenery enjoying her retirement. That is why I picked out a loaded LS6 with sunroof. She absolutely adores sunroof. Her first one.)
Received the 2000 Ford stockholders Annual Report in mail. A small picture of LS, on p. 78. Page 25 shows Lincoln sold 203,141 vehicles in 2000, 99% in North America. For "New Products/Services for 2000/2001", it lists only "Blackwood" & "Navigator". Why no mention of LS?
TAKE NOTE: Found a couple small items in the text discussing LS. One most interesting on page 11:
"Earlier this year, Lincoln and Edmunds.com invited a group of web-savvy LS owners to an event at Wild Rivers Water Park in California. There the customers could put faces on the names they'd met in a Lincoln chat room and push their personal vehicles to the limit on three professionally designed road courses."
"As she put it, the reason for a good automatic is to let you focus on driving while it focuses on the proper gear. If you have to focus on the gears, why wouldn't you want a manual?"
Did your Mom find the option distracting? Would it trouble her if the SST were no-charge, standard equipment?
I asked my salesman what non-enthusiasts thought of the SST feature on the Sport. He shrugged & said that they just ignore it.
Original equipment tire/wheel assemblies match the high spot of the tire with the low spot of the wheel. Note the piece of yellow tape on the tires of new vehicles not yet prepped. On Ford machined wheels, the tape is usually matched with the valve stem.
Every replacement tire I've purchased has a mark, usually a red or yellow 1/4" spot on the sidewall. It is well worthwhile to have the tire dealer align this with the wheel valve stem hole. If they inadvertently mount the tire 180 degrees off this mark, there's a good chance that the tire will vibrate even if perfectly balanced.
Make sure, if you have this problem, to mention it to the service department as soon as possible after getting the car. After so many miles the warranty for wheel balancing expires.
Another personal preference for SST would be to hae the full shift pattern simultaneously available. Now the SST owner can only go either SST to the right or D5 or D4 on left. I want D1-D2-D3 on left as well. Think great makes like BMW, Audi, and others provide full shift pattern in addition to their versions of SST. (Might also be nice to reverse SST and regular shift pattern. IMHO, more natural to have SST on left side. Pull lever toward you to engage SST, not push it away from you to engage.)
Make sure, if you have this problem, to mention it to the service department as soon as possible after getting the car. After so many miles the warranty for wheel balancing expires.
It seems that providing D1 > D5, as well as SST, as the standard package would satisfy most owners, and reduce complexity at Wixom.