Lincoln LS

nosho

Heyjewel,

I experienced similar low RPM non-response with a
California emissions LS-V6 5M. Below 3000 rpm,
punch it and... nothing. Odd part is it doesn't
stall as if too much air or sputter with too much
fuel. It responds as if the throttle body is
electronic and just plain isn't opening. It looks
to be a purely mechanical throttle body to me but
hard to believe given lack of response.

A California emission feature?

Never did find out what the issue is. I'm interested
in hearing what you find out.

Enjoy.

azlels

I bought the 6 because of better balance/handling after driving both it and the 8 on long drives. I found a noticable difference with the 50/50 balance. I was able to find and LS6 sport loaded including the Alpine sound system.. Made 6/00. I also have a 1998 BMW 528. It is a bit smoother and more refined but the LS is better handling and the 6 is much faster than the straight 6 in the 528. The LS tranny much smoother. Small complaints about the LS are. Offer a real wood option, the turn signal switch feels junky like from a Focus, the wipers leave wet spot in the middle of the windshield when shut off. I wonder if Lincoln has a fix with a stronger spring on the blade. The BMW had the best wipers of any car I have had (name it I have had one). All in all the LS6 is a GREAT CAR for the price. At 2000 miles I am averaging 21 mpg driving to work. Not bad for a new engine. I do note easier reving as it gets more miles....

cdnpinhead

#3194 (heyjewel) -- Ain't it wonderful? On a fairly lengthy road trip I took last September, I caught motorcycles on two separate occasions in your state, CA. Once on the PCH heading into Stinson Beach (north of San Francisco for the rest of you) and once the next day going over Sonora Pass in the Sierras. Traffic was light enough that I knew we were all going at our comfortable pace. . .and that's the delight of the LS. One can comfortably go at speeds around corners that are a big deal in another vehicle. Welcome!

#3203 (low rpm grunt) -- I've written much more than I'm sure anyone wanted to read on this subject. The manual is a dog at low rpm's, especially when it's new. My theory is that the "all-world low emissions" goal for this car severely limited two things. One is low rpm performance for the manual and the other is gas mileage. . .for everyone, I might add. I'm still stunned by the relatively much better gas mileage my Eagle Vision (don't get me started on how bad the car was otherwise) got, both around town (2 mpg better) and on high-speed vacation runs through Nevada (up to 4 mpg better). Hang in there, though. The manual's performance gets much better after everything is run in -- second gear will eventually really make you smile. The gas mileage, however, will still suck.

#3204 (azlels) -- BLESS YOU! You're the only other person on the board that I recall who has pointed out that the turn signal feels like it's off a Yugo (you were somewhat more kind). Since I live in Arizona, I realize that only 3% of the people actually use the turn signal, but those who do must notice that the thing doesn't have the solid feel one would like for a $30 - 40K car. I use mine hundreds of times a day, and every time, I regret not buying a car built by people who paid attention to such details.

For those new to this board, I'm one of the malcontents, and overall still love the LS. Just give it a bettter chip and a solid turn signal stalk. If the turn signal felt half as nice as the steering wheel controls, all would be well. I rent lots of semi-luxury cars for work, and once in a while end up with a Cadillac or equivalent. The LS's steering wheel controls (both radio & cruise) are really fine.

ezaircon4jc

For all of you that think a 2nd gear start is new/unusual. A friend at work has a '56 T-Bird (he keeps talking about selling it) that he just had the transmission rebuilt. He thought it started out kinda "funny". The guy that rebuilt it told him that the car starts out in second gear unless he presses down hard on the throttle. Then it will shift down to first and up through 2nd to 3rd. Does this sound familiar, with the exception of stopping at 3rd? I guess it's true, everything that's old is new again.

mstssc

I am looking for a sport sedan and LS is on my list as well as other usual suspects. My concern is weight. This car in 6 cyl man trim is 4500 lbs (1300 more than IS300 or Volvo S60) according to dealer specs. I have not driven it yet but would not consider 8 cyl to overcome weight. Anyone with a 6 cyl notice this? Is it a concern with performance?

Thanks

Steve

scottc8

You have some incorrect information. Base curb weight is 3572 lbs. for the V6, 3671 for the V8. Either engine "overcomes" this weight quite handily.

gerry100

I'm probably on the leading edge of wearing out an LS ( 2000 LS8 sport ) due to use as a company car- so I thought it might be useful to give other drivers an occasional update-

Tires-

- Firestone Firehawk LH P205/50R17/95V, shot at 35K.

- Guy at Firestone shop said tht this was good mileage for a performance tire ( probably due to lots of hiway miles).

- My set was hurtin' from underinfaltion, and starting to chunk . This made the last 5k noisy and annoying. Firestone guy said conscientious rotation would have helped.

- Firestone Firehawk is currently the only replacement available ($150 each). In the future, if demand for this specific size increases more alternatives may appear.

- My plan is to watch pressures more closely and rotate at every oil change (5k miles)

gerry100

halfway home with my new tires, after a gas stop, the traction control and ABS dash lights came on and stayed on.

Talked to LM dealer service dept- they suggested that a wheel sensor could have been affected during tire change.

Firestone said bring it back in in the AM.

Like many of you, I've had the mysterios beeps,and the "change oil soon" message that takes 3-10 tries to reset.

Sure enough. in the AM the lights are off. A test on a gravel road shows that the ABS and Traction contrl are both working.

This car is either not smart enough to know if something is wrong or smart enough to fix itself.

stanny1

You're only halfway on the break-in. You haven't heard the big growl yet. It will be followed by the big grin. That V-6 is really tight. Yes. I've experienced the "lag". It's like there were primary and secondary injectors, or in the old days, primary and secondary barrels. Real mild until you ask for it. One of the engineers told me that the idle speed is about 850 so you don't stall, which is what I did in the first weeks I had the car. A long break-in will help the "bog" but feathering the clutch and launching at over 1200 rpm will help. I don't think the Dura-Get has much torque off the line for such a heavy car. My 83 Cressida 5 speed had no problem launching, but it was a 2 valver, weighed 3000 lbs, had only 143 hp, but had a 3:73 rear as well. We're fighting 3600 lbs, the low torque of a 4 valver at low rpm, and a 3:07 rear ratio. The auto tranny LS6 has converter losses but does provide converter torque multiplication at a higher rpm lock-up and that beautiful 3:58 rear
ratio. I hope that when my lease is up in 7/03, LM will get serious with the rear ratio, 6 speed and LSD or I'll look hard at the 5 series or the IS300 six-speed. Six-speed Getrags are going in more models all the time and the LS needs to join the club. Chant VVT, LSD, and Getrag Six-speed. Then the rear ratio will take care of itself. So will the non-competitive 0-60 times which will look even worse in two years. But for now, I will just enjoy my Manual and not plan any major mods that will be worth nothing if I turn the car in. The ball is in LM's court. I'm not saying anything they don't know in the Manual/V-6 Engineering Group. A few little changes with existing hardware....
Besides, I have no life except Real Estate and driving the LS. These 85 hour weeks without a day off. Will the economy end this?..maybe I need a break!

ronniepooh

I guess you may have just joined the forum, as we had a pretty good discussion on the Firehawks and their current price of $106 each at www.tirerack.com. ;-0

I have over 34,000 miles on mine, and they all appear to still have good tread left, and Im sure I can at least make 40,000 to maybe 45,000 miles on them before hitting the wear bars. I do quite a bit of city driving, and some of its pretty aggressive cornering at times. No jackrabbit starts, but some dicy lane changing when the traffic permits, usually Sunday evenings around these parts. Tires are still quiet, and good traction.

akirby

Are not the only tires in that size. Pirelli has a couple, Bridgestone has a new one that they're putting on new LS' and the 2002 Tbird is using a Michelin Pilot in that size. You can also use 245/45R17 which offers over 30 selections, although some have pointed out that the wider tread and thinner sidewall may not ride as good.

I've never had any trouble resetting the "change oil soon"' light nor do I remember anyone else having problems. Maybe you're not doing it right.

ronniepooh

I have usually keep my tire pressures between 33-35psi at all times, which has probably helped the overall life of them.

pat

We do not buy and sell things by posting in Town Hall. See your Terms of Use by clicking on the link on the left sidebar of this page.

Thanks.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

drolds1

They had made a running change to the Bridgestone Turanza. Now that Ford has severed its relationship with Bridgestone/Firestone, I wonder which 17" tire will be used on the LS. Maybe they'll go the T-Bird's OE Michelin Pilot you mentioned.

joelincoln

Hi all,
My '01 V8 Sport has 10,600 miles. I got my 10000 mile checkup yesterday at Liberty LM in Clifton, NJ. No problems at all. All service done on time and correctly...reset the oil life monitor, rotated tires, and didn't try to charge me for it.

My overall fuel mileage (city/hwy) is at 17.90 mpg as calculated from the pump. The car is reporting an average of 18.0 from the display (I reset at each fillup). Pretty close. The average continues to slowly increase from the day I bought it. No problems to report with the car.

Love this car.
Joe

mstssc

Thanks for the clarification. The weight I quoted was directly from the Lincoln brochure. It seemed high to me, but being a Lincoln, was not a suprise I guess. I'll check the figures again.

Thanks
Steve

ronniepooh

Steve:...If you are really serious about the LS, might I suggest test driving new AND comparable used V6/V8 LS's if you have the time. As stated before, the engines in the V6 Ls's tend to loosen up after a few miles. I dont think this is a placebo type effect, as at least one long-term magazine review of the LS (cant recall which one) noted slightly quicker 0-60 times after several thousand miles were put on the car, and that slight change probably does translate to a noticeable difference in feel. Driving the used one can also show you how well the LS's suspension and other areas of the car hold up over time. I have to admit, I was abit skeptical about the wear of items like American made Motorcraft Shocks (if thats whats actually used, im guessing) especially when Ive been used to German products like Sachs and Bilstein suspension pieces. All I can say is the major pieces of the LS seem to be holding up very well. I dont anticipate having to "freshen up" the suspension until around 60,000 miles or so, at which time it appears that replacement of the shocks should be pretty easy anyways...

albert19

Just turned 1100 miles on ls8 sport. Up to 19.0 mpg....and I get on it every so often...no complaints !!

ronniepooh

For all you suspension guru's and engineers. I've always thought Macpherson struts were somewhat archaic and passe', and fancy aluminum double wishbones like the LS has is ultimately superior. But, as mentioned before, BMW still uses Macpherson struts, and continues to be the best handling sport sedans around bar none. I just read the review of the Integra replacement, the RSX, and Acura actually took a step backwards and went away from double wishbones, and went back to Macpherson struts. The Edmunds review says the handling (for a FWD, of course) is great, suffering no ill effects from going back to struts.
Any engineering perspectives on Macpherson struts vs. double wishbones?

drew_

peterw36

I have a 2000 LS V6 Auto, 13K miles. Today the engine just quit (stalled?) while I was driving, this could have been dangerous if I had been on a freeway, fortunately I was on a local road driving at about 25 mph. I coasted to a halt, at that time the engine would not crank, however all the accessories seemed to work, seats, windows, radio, etc, the car is now with the dealer. I remember something about this in old postings maybe a year ago. Is there anyone with experience or other information about this failure.

reneleblanc

I had a no-crank problem, but the car didn't quit while running. After stopping for lunch, the car wouldn't start again.

My problem was a bad connection between a cable and a connector for the Passive Anti-Theft System (PATS). The connector is under the escutcheon plate around the ignition key, attached to a 4-conductor cable. The connector has a green part on it. The problem was a bad contact between the "crimp-on" connector and the cable. A few hefty tugs on the cable with a pair of needle nose pliers and some contact cleaner spray to boot and the car cranked and started flawlessly. The problem has never recurred.

lateralg

Has anyone else received the message "no new subscription messages" then gone to Town Hall > Sedans > Lincoln LS & found new messages?

I've done it several times, on three boards, & found the same thing.

ronniepooh

Yep, had the same issue. Resubscribing solved the problem, dont know what caused the problem, though

ronniepooh

For those that think the LS has "respectable" MPG figures, check out the Infiniti Q45. MUCH larger, and heavier, its v8 puts out 340hp compared to the LS v8's 252hp, and the mpg figure for the Q is 17/25 vs. 17/24 for the LSV8.

Realizing the Q is much pricier, does fuel efficiency cost that much to produce? Lincoln cant do better MPG wise, especially compared to the weight/power of the Q?

pat

I too "lost" a subscription to an individual topic yesterday - at first I thought I must have hit "change subscripts" by mistake, but then I realized you have to go through a series of steps to actually unsubscribe from something, and I simply had not done that.

There are a couple of ways to see if you are still subscribed to something or not - either look at your "Preferences" (follow the link that appears to the right of your personalized "Welcome" message at the top of the page), or check the middle button above the post box in a discussion. If it says "Subscribe" you are not currently subscribed, or if it says "Change Subscripts", you are.

I'll report this to those that be to see if something can be fixed.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

reneleblanc

Yup, I had the same problem. I was apparently "unsubscribed". I have now re-subscribed. I hope everything starts working normally again.

lateralg

Thank you Pat. I'll now sleep much better.

alphanstein

Just got back from a week trip. Got to rent a 2001 Explorer, 2001 Mazda Protege, and 2000 Volvo V40. Of course, none compared to the LS. The Explorer rides like a truck and is noisey. It also had a lot of high revving RPM's will little forward momentum, unexciting. The Protege, well, I got stuck with that and it sucked. Loud and a four cylindar, need I say more. The Volvo was nice looking, but very understyled in the interior. The turbo sucks, a 1.8L turbo. It's a very delayed response to the throttle that doesn't kick in until 3000rpms, then launches you foward. Not good for trying to predictably pull out in traffic. Needless to say, I missed my LS.

They did have LS's at each of the Hertz locations I went too, but the company won't pay for those. In Vancouver, I saw five LS's in the span of one hour, including the one at Hertz. Had me missing mine even more.

slunar

For those 2000LS owners, who don't have the service bundled in: The list price on the FL-2008 oil filter for the V8 has gone from a ridiculous $10.47, the last time I bought one, to an incredible $12.89 now. I was able to negotiate a substantially better price. From a comment the parts guy made I'm guessing that there is a 60% markup on the filters. I was also able to get 30% off of the cabin air filter which has an astronomical list price of $31.71. The cabin air filter was so dirty I ordered an engine air filter which the dealer did not have in stock. In looking at the Ford Maintenance Guide I was surprised to see that in normal service it doesn't call for an engine air filter replacement until 30,000 miles. That seems a bit long to me.

For the person who was asking about cleaning the black trim below the doors and bumpers. I've been using Blue Coral Leather & Vinyl cleaner. It works real well. I just hope the person who has the auto detailing business doesn't burst my bubble and tell me that it contains silicon.

drolds1

If you go to the "Store" link on LLSOC.com, you will find Fordpartsnetwork.com. I checked there and the cabin filter is 19.99; V8 oil filter is 7.99. Of course, shipping is 7.00 and I don't know if that would apply to the entire order or each item individually. You'd have to be nuts to pay 7.00 shipping on a 7.99 item. I guess you could order in bulk.

So, it sounds like you got a good deal @ 30% off on the cabin filter.

scottc8

Not sure what "list" price means, but I just had an oil change done at the dealer last week and was charged $7.25 for the oil filter. Wonder if there's a break on parts prices if you also buy the labor, because I did pay $31 or so for the cabin air filter that I bought at the parts counter on another occasion.

slunar: How did you get the discount?

ls1bmw0

you've seen the tackiest auto. accesory, someone comes up with a tackier one.

Check out this one from ebay. I can't believe they actually make something like this. What's worse it there are people that are buying this.

Brian

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=592658994&r=0&t=0

drolds1

I'm sure it won't be too long before my son has these in his Honda.

Isn't the study of genetics fascinating?

Artie

ezaircon4jc

I guess I shouldn't tell you that I bought a set. They look REALLY cool

slunar

To get a discount on parts you simply have to do the same things as when you are trying to buy anything. Most of us spent lots of time when we bought our LS's trying to figure out what the dealer cost is. You have to do the same with parts. To get a good price you need information. Figure the dealer cost is 45 to 50% of list. Do price checking, Threaten to go to another dealer because the other dealer gives you a discount on parts. Or tell them you can buy the filters at Pep Boys for a lot less. Act like you know what your're talking about. Of course I'm a cheater, many years ago I dated a girl whose father owned a Ford dealer, so I have a little inside information. I was armed with printouts from fordpartsnetwork.com showing their prices. I was able to get the dealer to beat fordpartsnetwork.com prices on all 3 items oil, cabin and engine air filters. The parts guy seemed real upset that I could buy this stuff over the internet.

ezaircon4jc

The I30 I have, while my dealer is trying to fix my car, doesn't get any better milage than V6 LS. The Infiniti is EPA listed as 19/26. That's only 1 better than my 18/25. And my car is WAY more fun to drive

ronniepooh

I think I can beat the tacky pedals...check this LS special part out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=592698358

ls1bmw0

I actually saw the blue version of the LED washer nozzles on a 87 Caddy the other night. Thought it was a police car at first since you can see the blue coming at you. Yech.... :b

Brian

joe166

it is the same guy. He seems to have cornered the market on tacky. For some laughs, you should see all of his auctions. There are obviously some people who really like his stuff, though.

giowa

Am sitting here in Adirondack Mtns of Upstate NY about 1,300 miles from Omaha. Taking the '96 Impala SS was the right thing. Averaged about 22.5 mpg at 74 mph with wife, 2 kids, and trunk full of luggage. She had more than enough interior room and storage space to haul everything. Thankfully she runs on regular unleaded. They only have 87/89/93 octane around here. 93 runs over 20 cents more per gallon than 87. Having the 5.7L V-8 and the aggressive suspension/tire setup means she has the power to move with the best of 'em and the ability to get thru the curves (However, my LS8 Sport's IRS is far superior.)

If you even get the chance, bring your LS6M and LS8 Sports up to the Adirondacks. God's country and some really, really fun roads to drive on. Even the two-lane county roads are a blast. Maybe more so as most are not very heavily used.

When I logged on today I found only the Lincoln LS site had somehow unsubscribed. All my other subscriptions were OK.

If FWD is so much cheaper, where are all the FWD pickup trucks? Full-size pickups & SUVs are considered the cash cows of the auto industry. Now that Toyota is stealing sales from Detroit on full-size pickups & SUVs, Detroit is really, really nervous. Noticed someone mentioned IRS being part of reason for costliness of RWD. Ever notice how almost all those RWD sedans (Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, former Caprice/Roadmaster, etc.) were or still are non-IRS? Not to mention all those 2WD F-150s, Dodge Rams, Blackwoods, etc. Or most 4WD pickups and SUVs? Guess that is why Ford and Merc making such a big deal about '02 IRS in Exploder (oops Explorer) and Mountaineer?

One big down side to having the SS's huge trunk is that my wife is buying too much. When we went to Old Forge and Lake Placid she knew the car would be able to bring back all the crap she had to have!!!

Gotta get back to some more bass and trout fishin'. I'll have another Genny Cream Ale, smoke a fine cigar, and enjoy looking at my SS. Though, in all honesty, I really can't wait to get home and take the LS8 for a serious twisty spin!!!

cwz

I bought some (3) oil filters from fordpartsnetwork about 2 month ago and they were 6.99 (I guess they increased them to 7.99) I do not remember what shipping was (either 5 or 6) but it was for the entire order. So if you order multiple filters then shipping fee is worth. If your in a state where you pay sales tax then the fact that there is no taxes on these parts from fordpartsnetwork.com then you might come our even on the shipping charge.

stanny1

IRS is more expensive to make. The reason it is used mostly on cars and the new Explorer is one of load ratings. An IRS that wouldn't overly react to extreme load would be extremely stiff. I think a good question would be to compare the new and old Explorer's load/towing rating. I think a solid "live" axle gives a lot of stability when carrying or towing a heavy load. IRS is for roadholding and comfort but is more critical on load range. A heavy trailer might cause the IRS rear end to cycle up and down in response to load/road variations. Trucks need to be simple and durable and I think a solid rear axle meets those requirements and is also a low-cost solution as well. One other factor is camber change. Put three heavy adults in the back of the LS (I haven't tried this!) and if it's like a lot of IRS cars, the rear tire slip angles get really strange.

lolaj42

Yuck! Those two things bring back some really awful memories, of an otherwise wonderful area! My wife and I went to school in Ithaca, NY, (Cornell, not I.C.)and I was raised in NY. You can keep that Genny stuff (made for really poor and desperate college kids). However, no argument here about upstate NY, it is really beautiful, and the roads can be fun . . . just look out for the abundance of local law enforcement. Happy trails!

akirby

I think those would add about 15 HP - more than the washer nozzles (those only add about 5 hp) but not quite as much as one of those nice, big windshield decals. Those will get you at least another 20-30 hp alone.

brucelinc

Just returned from a great vacation in Alaska. Flew into Anchorage and rented a car from Budget. I was using frequent-renter points and upgrade certificates and had requested an LS. They didn't have any, so we wound up with a Town Car with only 600 miles on it. After accumulating another 2500 miles over some fantastic roads (and some pretty rough gravel) it was quite a revelation to get back in the LS when we got home. I have had TC rentals before but never spent as much time in one as on this trip.

I understand comparisons between the two may seem ridiculous. However, I want to express some opinions strictly from the "luxury car" point of view - an area in which the TC should more than hold its own.

Seats: The LS seats are soooooo much better. Why shouldn't a luxury car have good lateral support in the seats? I suppose if you are 6' 6" and weigh 250 or more, the TC might be better. For me, the TC requires a firm grip on the wheel because the seats sure don't hold you in place.

Performance: The 4.6 two-valve engine in the TC has good low RPM grunt. However, in the 50 - 80 MPH passing situation, the LS would suck its windshield out. Isn't good passing ability a desirable trait in a luxury car?

Interior: IMHO, the LS interior is every bit as luxurious as the TC. The TC looks just like a Ford Crown Vic - not bad but certainly no better than an LS. I had no idea how much we would miss the telescoping wheel and individual driver/passenger temperature controls, either. Luxuries found on the LS but not the TC.

Driving: (I won't even mention "handling") What is luxurious of having to continually make steering corrections when trying to go straight? The LS tracks better and is so much more communicative and responsive.

Ride: TCs aren't as floaty as they used to be, thank goodness. However, over really bad roads, there are more steering wheel jitters and dash jiggles than the LS ever thought of having!

It is not my intent to condemn TCs or insult their owners. However, unless the huge trunk is needed, I think the LS is a far better luxury car. In my market, TCs go for around $30k and LS V8s around 35. That difference is easy to justify.

By the way, Alaska is awesome - I highly recommend a visit!

Bruce

slunar

Here in over priced Connecticut you can pick up a 30 pack of Genny Cream Ale for a whopping $8.99. Back in the homeland (Rochester NY) it's a buck or so less a case. Thats right, less than 30 cents a beer! If you are going to indulge get it as cold as possible which almost makes the stuff tollerable on a 90+ degree, 95% humidity day.

And one last thing, when heading to the Adirondacks leave the LS home and rent a Town Car because you will need a trunk big enough to hold a dozen cases of Deep Woods Off.

ezaircon4jc

The Navy "gave" me an all expenses paid (heck, they paid ME, if you can call Navy pay, pay!) trip to Anchorage around July 1977. The tides there are unbelievable. When it went went out, we sat on the bottom! That was wierd! Tied up next to the pier and run aground! The sun never did REALLY set. Just a finger or two above the horizon, then back up. The glaciers were really cool (no pun intended) to see. Of course the down side was the prices! Back then a Big Mac was around $2!

I've had a TC as a loaner before and agree totally with your assesment. I have short arms and couldn't reach the radio from a comfortable driving position without leaning forward away from the seatback. Why is the radio 5 feet from the drivers seat? On a recent trip to Lake Arrowhead in my loaner I30 I really missed the seat bolsters. I was constantly having to right myself in the seat.

I miss my LS. Hopefully today!

drolds1

I had a rental TC in Las Vegas some years back. I needed the trunk space for a family of 4 and needed interior space for my son who was fully grown by then-about 6'5". Other than that, I think I hit every center median in town whenever making left or U-turns. You needed to call the harbor master to park it.

Mike-as far as reaching the radio controls, I guess necessity really is the mother of invention-voila!-redundant steering wheel controls.

This discussion has served a real twofold purpose:

-We appreciate our LS's all the more;
-We now know why people (including ourselves) are astounded that the LS was produced by the same division that gave us the TC. We can even further appreciate what a bold step the LS was for Lincoln.

Now for that old oxymoron: a car this size is a TOWN car. How does this differ from a city car- like the ones I saw in Italy that are 2.5 meters long?

ls1bmw0

Size-of-Rhode-Island Car doesn't have as nice as ring to it as Town Car!

Brian