Thanks for the info. 100 ft.lbs. is what I remembered, but couldn't find it to confirm. I now have to buy a some lug nuts as my dealer chewed up a couple of them when they worked on my LS. Isn't dealer service great. The place with the Hunter that I was at today had a fit getting one of the lug nuts off. Being a real shop the tech. wanted to know what the proper torque was, he couldn't believe it was not in the owners manual. He called a friend at the local Ford / Lincoln dealer who could not find the torque info.! He had a nice and expensive looking 3' long click type torque wrench that made torqueing the lugs to 100 ft. lb. a snap. It all makes me think I shouldn't even bother trying to get the dealer to check my driveshaft balance, but just have these guys check it out.
As an interesting aside I was chatting with the shop owner who just bought a GS-400. He was considering a LS, S-type and 540i. He rented a Jag that had 15K miles on it. He said the rental Jag was really trashed and had a bad vibration which turned him off to getting a S-type.
A Detroit auto consultant has some chilling thoughts. He says the tire recall, lawsuits, etc. is making Ford mgmt unable to concentrate on running the company, improving quality or future products. He says the true cost to the company could easily be 10 or 20 times the 2.1 billion set aside. Ford has tied up its engineers for 100,000 man-hours testing tires, for example. This is all from Automotive News the June 28 issue. Consumer Reports refers to the Taurus and Sable platforms as showing their age, and they were just reskinned. If Ford doesn't sell Explorers and Tauruses, they don't eat. My question is, "How much money is going to be available for the engineering improvements and quality improvements to the LS?"
Ahh.. the standard management response - defuse the situation by comparison to others. No thanks! My comparison to other cars includes only my prior-3 cars: Honda Accord (no problems in 4 years), Nissan Maxima (no problems in 5 years) and VW GTI (only 1-problem - frequent radio theft). The LS is most disappointing because of the frequency of failures (12 and counting) and the resulting lack of confidence one 'should' have in a $40K luxury/sport sedan. You rarely hear anyone compare Lincoln or BMW to Lexus because Lexus (Toyota) understands quality and customer care. The bottomline is Life Time Value, the amount of business you'd bring in buying/leasing new cars from a car company over your lifetime. I 'was' worth over $500,000 to Lincoln, but not anymore! So you see, if they get it ($500K) they should take much better care of the customer today and fix these defects to preserve the lifetime value, else they're the BIG loser overall!
With all the problems you have encountered, the only way to get any satisifaction is to write to the corporate marketing dept. Tell them exactly what has happened over the past 12 or 15 months. I would also mention that the service dept. you deal with leaves alot to be desired. I understand your frustration and anger, but posting a message like you did on this message board does no one any good, and will not get your LS fixed. Save yourself some grief and either find another dealership to get your LS fixed, contact the corporate headquarters, or I hate to say it, but get rid of the LS. You health is far more important than having to vent over a car!!!! Good luck.
I think Albert19 has the right idea. In any car... I mean "any car" there are bound to be some lemons that should never have made it off the asembly line. I would email headquarters and cc your dealer outlining your grievances. Be polite but be specific. A well drafted letter with civil language always gets noticed over an emotional meltdown tongue-lashing (especially when it's been in the shop 12 times in 15 months). Remember, by addressing Ford Motor directly puts your unresponsive dealer on notice that "Ford Quality" is not being followed at his dealership. With such a dismal response that you got I can't help but feel someone will "Get It" at Ford. Good luck to you!
Also, you will probably need to craft a well documented timeline, like a journal, of the times you went in and the responses or lack thereof. Just like a legal case, you are going to need to substantiate your claim. This same document will help you make a legal claim if necessary. But as bill mentioned, be polite and civil, otherwise the receiving end will not co-operate and return the same kind of response. This is a lot of work, but it could result in your issues getting fixed or even your car replaced.
I also have to agree with ronniepooh that you cannot expect a dealer/manufacturer to issue a recall for all regulators because one fails. There may only be 2% of the 2000 LS's that exhibit this problem, so the need to replace the other regulator because one failed makes no sense to me, or even the bean counters for that matter. That is what warranties are for. And if you have fears that you will see failures after the warranty period, they you are probably better served by purchasing an extended warranty. But these are a gamble as to whether they will pay off.
I just got my new Road and Track today (August issue) and it has their first test of the new T-bird. Interesting tidbits: 1. Wheelbase is 7.3 inches shorter than LS 2. Because of convertible configuration, has 3 bolt-on X-shaped underbody braces and a 3 inch diameter cross-car beam aft of the seats for added rigidity. 3. Has 235/50-17 Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 Tires on 17x7.5 chromed cast alloy wheels. 4. Weighs 3775 lbs. 5. Has a "smooth shifting" five speed auto 6. Not available with "Select-Shift" 7. Has 3:58 rear ratio 8. Did 0-60 in 7 sec flat 9. Did 1/4 mile in 15.2 @ 93.5 mph, a few tenths faster than the V-8 LS. 10. This is comparable with the IS300 performance figures. 11. did .83g on 200ft skidpad; 60.6 mph on 700 ft slolom. 12. Text mentioned "rumored Sport Package should cure the floaty feel over high speed dips" 13. "The T-Bird's doors and rear quarter panels are the only body parts made of steel; all others are made of SMC plastic". 14. Production first year, off the LS assembly line, is only 25,000 units. Available in two trim levels: Deluxe @ $35,495 and Premium @ $36,495, both including destination. The hardtop is $2500 additional. At those prices and only 25,000 units per year, that's only a couple per dealer. Put your money down now and don't even think about buying below list. This could be the next PT Cruiser in popularity. Wixom might as well convert the whole line to T-Bird production and forget the LS. Watch for pressure at Wixom in producing both vehicles at one time IMHO. 15. I credit the 3:58 rear for this heavy car's stellar performance in a straight line compared with the V-8 LS. Handling is exceptional considering the poorer 54/46 F/R weight balance vs the LS. 16. Imagine SMC plastic body panels on the LS for weight savings, as well as 3:58 in the rear as well! These are the same panels as used on the Saturn - shopping cart proof! Have a great LS derived day!
Think Edmunds tried to start up a thread here early in '01 to get feedback on Lincoln's program. No one responded. I posted the first response a short while back pointing out that the silence was deafening. Is that a sign the program is a failure for Lincoln? How many people here used it? Or want to in future?
Actually, I'd be most interested in knowing what the 12 failures were (or the other 10 since we know at least 2 were window failures.) Most of us bought the 1st 2000 LSs knowing fully that problems would happen with it being a brand new car - top to bottom. Learning about potential problems is one of the main reasons I read this forum.
Thanks to stanny1 giving us the scoop on the availability of the re-engineered window replacement part - I was totally prepared when I went to a local Ford/Mercury (not even Lincoln) dealer to have the part replaced. They were more than helpful!
If you have the 2000 model and expected perfection - maybe you shouldn't have. If you have a 2001 and are experiencing these problems... then you have more of a right to be upset.
I apologize in advance to those who will be needlessly affected by giowa's lack of decorum as I must post this!
I guess you must have missed all the problems listed on this LS section. Let's recap: failing to start, flooding, battery, electrical, window issues, TIRE ISSUES (Firestone), even one guy calling his LS a lemon! Who the hell are you fooling? It sure doesn't take a scientist (or a Lincoln salesman) to figure out which car has more issues!
"I apologize in advance to those who will be needlessly affected by giowa's lack of decorum as I must post this!"
What the heck does this mean?
Let's talk about the LS. Sure, I have posted that I was aggravated by minor problems, but I think it would take an active imagination to see the type of complaints we have had as being indicative of a problem car. For example, what Firestone "TIRE ISSUES" are you talking about? The fact that most of us seem to be getting great longevity from our relatively inexpensive Firestones? The fact that some have switched to other brands for various reasons? Perhaps you mistakenly thought that LS's were being supplied with Wilderness AT's? I guess I missed the point of your post, but in my opinion the LS is relatively trouble free. My car has been great. I would reccomend it to anyone. It has been far more trouble free than any of the BMW's, Acura's, or Mercedes' I have previously owned and about the same as my wifes Lexus.
You won't find me arguing that the '00 LS was a paragon of reliability. Nor have I specifically or in detail brought up this issue vis-a-vis the LS/300M debate. (I did check out recent Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue reliability info and thought both were similar, with LS8 being a bit better but LS6 being a bit worse than 300M.)
I've freely acknowledged the repeated heated seat problems (the seat wouldn't heat) and intermittent airbag warning light problem (it would come on and stay on for no reason) I experienced in the first 20,000 or so miles. And the dealer service ain't in same league as I was used to from my prior two Infiniti (what is the plural of Infiniti?).
All I'm saying is the LS8 Sport and LS6 Sport Manual are better all around high performance sport sedans than the 300M. The LS is the poor man's enthusiast sedan (e.g., in comparison to BMW 540i 6-speed) and I'm willing to concede that the 300M is the poorer man's enthusiast sedan (in comparison to the more expensive LS). I could afford a 300M and an LS but not a 540i manual. So I bought the best I could afford. And I wanted a new car. I bought the LS8 Sport.
I have an 00 LSV8 with 11K miles. I get the mystery beep about once every 6 to 8 weeks. Today, finally, I could read something on the message center. It was four words long. The first word and a half were "Gear Select...". I could not read the rest.
Any ideas? I would hope that newer models have been programmed to display the messages longer. Otherwise, just turn them (and the beep) off.
Read these posts a little more carefully sirharper before you go charging out here making statements that aren't thought out! I never said I have a lemon! I love my LS!!!!! I referred to cars in general as coming off the assembly line (any assembly line) with so many problems as lemons. Get your facts straight before you refer to posts!
Been there done that. Jim Rogers and his staff got me over the hump (many thanks!). Basically 2 crappy dealers in a row and ho-hum customer assistance and poor follow-up from the main 800 number. But I have seen, like many others, that good service is a commodity and it's easily shaved off the bottom line. I have an early production LS and had a nice laundry list. The good news was that it was 99% cosmetic stuff. Hardly the sort of thing you expect with a new $40k car. I also have an '01 Mercedes C240. There have been two service issues, and the first one (squealing brakes) had me toe to toe with the service manager (he said MB brakes were supposed to be noisy).
After a few deep breaths I can agree that this is not Lincolns exclusive domain. There is just a general "lack of give a $hit" in today's market. Sell more using less labor and get more for it. For example, I have been in a "full service" Marriott hotel for the last four weeks and there are two things that really make my day in a hotel:
1. In room coffee maker & supplies 2. Morning newspaper, preferably a Wall Street Journal.
All the rest of the crap (that means value-ads) they push is just noise, but I have yet to get my coffee supplies refreshed or a newspaper consistently for more than two days in a row. Why is that? The hotel management doesn't care. I am one of hundreds of guests and my newspaper and coffee is the LAST thing they will get focus on. And it will be the same pretty much everywhere else too. They are hoping I will leave so they can hear someone else complain for a change.
It doesn't matter if you are buying a $40k car, a $100/night hotel room, or a $2.99 Value Meal. Nobody really cares if you got what you expected or wanted because they aren't paid to care and there are people lined up behind you to get the same crappy service, so why bother.
"GEAR SELECT DATA ERROR" means there is a communication error sending the transmission position (PRND5D4321) to the instrument cluster. Dealers have detailed troubleshooting procedures to fix this error.
Does anyone know where the outside temperature sensor is located. Some times when I get my car washed, it seems to get stuck on a temperature. I suspect something may have "clogged" the sensor and I would like to try to clean it out.
I appreciate the feedback. First of all, this is an open forum and should not be tainted by only the 'good' feedback as some suggest to 'paint a rosey picture' for the LS. Mine is a lemon, after 12+ failures and less that respectable service at the "Presidents Award" dealershit, I think I have a right to sound off a little, after all, these are facts! Failures: 1) Defective sterio / dash lights at delivery day #1, so much for dealer prep 2) Left stranded - fuel system 3) Right rear window - regulator 4) Headlight fogged-up 5) Left stranded - fuel system - again 6) Drone sound at 55 mph - half-shaft replacement 7) Front suspension - recall 8) Misc electrical problems / steering wheel 9) Auto-wipers, memory mirror & seat 10) Sterio / dash lights - again 11) Poor shifting - Transmission reflash 12) Left rear window / global open - regulator 13) Flat spots / vibration - Firestone tires 14) Slow downshift / hesitation - tranny reflash enough said...
JD Powers and Associates just released their Customer Satisfaction Service Index and Lexus won again for the 5th year with Saturn second and Caddy 3rd, with GM taking 5-of the top-10. Ford had (0) in the top-10, enough said!
I acquired my LS8 Sport in April '00, giving Lincoln almost 1-year to produce the LS (starting May '99) and work out most of the defects, so I feel I waited long enough and didn't jump at the early production fearing more defects.
The LS has been a big disappointment, even though it is a good (not great) driving car, it still has the 2-1 downshift hesitation (2-3 seconds) that is my biggest complaint.
Funny, I haven't heard a word from Jim Rogers lately...
Check out the 6/13/01 issue of NY Times. Business, Management, Section has an interesting article titled "Quality Revival, Part 2: Ford Embraces Six Sigma". Talks about how Ford went out of way in '80s to embrace the quality quru's Total Quality Management principles and philosophy at all levels of the company. Then when the dark days were over "the concept faded into the background at Ford as its champions retired and were replaced by executives who had other priorities." Quotes a current Ford engineer as saying "Why isn't quality second nature at Ford? Because cost is king. For the past 6 or 7 years, there's been a huge emphasis on cost reduction. You walk in in the morning and all the alligators are circling. You kill the one that is most threatening--and that's cost."
Ford knows it has a problem. "Had Ford stuck with [TQM] it might have avoided many of the problems that have plagued it recently."
Will be interesting to see if 6 Sigma will bring back TQM/CQI culture. It is a concept popularized by General Electric in the '90s. "Is a lot more structured and profit-oriented than [TQM]."
I think TQM/CQI is far superior in changing and maintaining a quality culture. 6 Sigma has people looking at problems after the fact. They then do cost-benefit analysis to see if it is profitable to fix the problem. If not, the problem isn't fixed. "Each project has to improve processes 70 percent and produce $250,000 in cost savings" or it won't be approved.
TQM/CQI said prevent problems and fix them if/when identified. Quality pays for itself in long run.
Interestingly enough, the human interest part of the story is about a Ford Manager, Chris Davis, who used 6 Sigma to work on "the source of vibrations in 2000 Super Duty F-Series trucks and Excursion [SUVs], which led to a "realigned front end suspension". Problem caused by "subtle design alterations in some parts from previous models."
With 6 Sigma smaller production-run models like LS will take back seat to trucks, SUVs, Taurus, etc. Maybe this is why some of the repeated LS issues, like window regulators, aren't being addressed like maybe they should?
hasn't been around much lately. He is and has been out of the country for most of the last month and the whole of this month. I would hate to have the grueling travel schedule that he keeps.
If you have looked at any of the myriad back posts on this forum you will realize that your statement about "painting a rosy picture" is incorrect. There are numerous postings regarding problems with the LS. This board, while it supports the LS, does not have any problems with also showing the down side of the car.
Does your state have a lemon law? Use it and get out of your car if you are unhappy with both the dealer and the factory. That's what it is there for. And so is the Lincoln Customer Center.
By the way, the time period that your car was produced is the most problem-prone time frame in the LS production history. Why? Don't know but most of the problem cars appear to have been built in the Feb 00-Jun 00 timeframe.
I agree this is an open forum, and on behalf of the others who participate on this message board thanks for the laundry list of problems with your LS.Unfortunately, most of us do not work for Lincoln and cannot directly fix these problems for you. I also agree and you even stated that since this is an open forum everyone can participate with their opinions....(Remember opinions are like a..holes, everyone has one). But I have one final question to you; if everything was fixed to your satisifaction, would you be happy with the LS? If the answer is yes, then find a decent dealership and have them deal with it. And as mentioned before make contact with corporate and tell them your issues. If you answered the question no, then get rid of the car and step into something more reliable. Again, life is to short. Good Luck.
Lincoln INCREASED their rating on the JD Power survey this year from number 13 in 2000, to the above mentioned number EIGHT. Number 20 is considered 'industry average'.
Your radio and steering wheel controls malfunctioning are caused by the radio. Ford contracts out for the radios and there are at least 6 different configurations. Mine did the same thing upon delivery. And yes, I was livid! After they replaced the radio I haven't had a radio/steering wheel control issue. Have your dealer replace your radio! It is hardly fair to call a recall a defect. A hitch was found during assembly and affected owners notified. The headlight assembly was a known problem and easily rectified. It took my dealer less than an hour to change the headlight, change the oil and do a rotation. The window regulators have been used on the Marquis for quite a while. Ford changed a metal pully to a plastic post (IIRC) and that was the part that failed. I just did a tire/wheel swap with pacv12. My 16" Continental's for his 17" Firestones. My "new" tires are GREAT! They don't flatspot and are, IMHO, smoother than the old tires. Even with the reduced sidewall!
If you want a perfect car you will have to build it yourself. Oh darn, that still isn't a guarantee that all will function perfectly. There hasn't been a car made that wasn't recalled for something. That is, since they started recalling them. In the old days you just had to suck it up! How much money are you out of pocket for these issues? I'll bet zero. You will get your car fixed for free and be provided with a loaner until it is fixed. I agree that it is VERY annoying. Just be a little patient and work with your dealer. If they don't provide the service that you deserve, find another!
Just the title of your handle is not going to win you any favor from the Lincoln people that monitor this site. I know if I would Jim Rogers, just the tone that your handle implies would prevent me from initiating contact or starting a dialog with you.
And as ezair and albert state, if you cannot successfully find a dealer that will respond to you in the proper way and fix the warranty repairs, then you should engage Lincoln customer care to get it fixed. Venting on this board is one thing, but it won't get your problem fixed. You need to take that to the dealer and to Lincoln. Hope you can get a successful resolution though.
OK, I'm out of my league on this one. Have my first flat tire in a decade. Pulled the culprit and found a small screw buried in the tread. Once upon a time, one could pull the offending @#$#&* and repair the tire with a plug. I suspect that isn't a good idea with a V rated tire. Anyone have any advice....am I destined to buy a new tire?
Would like to know if anyone has experienced the following. Just bought 2001 LS-V8/sport pkge on June 16th and have had my car in service department for a total of 13 days now. Problem dealer is trying to fix for second time is as follows: I exit the car, use remote to lock/alarm vehicle. When I come back at end of work day, all windows are down and sunroof is opened. This has happened three times now and dealer has replaced a module in drivers door and has now replaced the key lock cylinder on drivers door. The up/down feature by using remote and/or key came with the car. The automatic while your not there down feature did not. If anyone else has had this happen please let me know what the fix was. It doesn't happen all the time just now and then (or approximately 3 times in 12 days of driving). Thanks.
Does a WEB site exist showing the torque/hp curves for the Lincoln LS V6 and V8 engines? I have the Jaguar curves and want to compare them to the Lincoln versions. Both Jaguar engines implement variable valve timing & variable intake systems giving them very flat torque curves.
No, you usually don't have to trash a tire that has a small puncture in it. The best technique is to have a competent tire shop remove the tire, put a plug and patch from the inside (one of those that is pulled out from the inside and has a large patch that gets "glued" to the inner side of the tread). If that is done right with the proper preparation, there is no loss of integrity of the plies or the rubber tread. The part that comes out wears even almost immediately and it is hard to even see where it was done. If it is not on the flat part of the tread (on the side wall), it probably can't be fixed and should be replaced. I have had several tires repaired in the past ten years since after Hurricane Andrew we had roof nails on every roadway in South Florida and my wife and I found almost every one. I have not had to replace any of them and the life of them was not shortened either. If you go in to a shop that tries to repair it with a plug from the outside, leave quickly. That is fine for a roadside emergency, but have it fixed properly at a decent tire shop as soon as possible.
At the risk of saying the obvious, I had a car that always seemed to unlock itself at an office I had some years ago. It turned out that my parking space was almost directly under my office, although because of different elevators it didn't seem to be. I would always play with my remote in my pockets and was unlocking my car without realizing it. I discovered it one day and experimented. I stopped and it stopped. I hope for your sake that it is something that simple, but the puny range of my LS remote makes that very unlikely. Another simple solution is that someone has discovered that their remote has the same frequency as you do and is trying to drive you insane. I found that once and drove a friend crazy, but I wouldn't have gone to this extent. Actually, make that an ex friend. When I confessed, he was not as amused as I was. His loss.
Thanks for the reply. I wish it was that simple. My office is about 300 yards from where I park my car, second floor and blocked by about 20 office walls. I asked dealer if it was possible that someone had the same frequency on the remote and they told me it wasn't possible (per their check with Ford/LM techs). Also, I asked them if it was possible that airplanes landing/taking off at O'Hare In'tl could trigger this (since they have a few more computers and radio frequencies on board than the LS)and they said no. As far as the joke you played on your ex friend......good one, at least you let him off the hook before it got crazy. Thanks.
"It doesn't matter if you are buying a $40k car, a $100/night hotel room, or a $2.99 Value Meal. Nobody really cares if you got what you expected or wanted because they aren't paid to care and there are people lined up behind you to get the same crappy service, so why bother."
Thomas, Not sure if this is aimed at the dealerships or at Lincoln itself. I just wanted to contest this statement; The LS has a committed team of people behind it that strives to make the car Best in Class. Don't sell us short!
Each remote has a code that is read by the computer when it's programmed. That code is stored and only a remote with that code will work. That's why you have to have all the remotes when you program them. For another remote to operate your car it would have to have the exact same code. Don't know if that's possible, but if it is then it must be highly unlikely. e.g. maybe they repeat codes in different geographic areas. Depends on how many code combinations are available.
Try switching remotes to see if that particular remote is faulty and is generating unwanted button presses. If that doesn't fix it I would reprogram without the current remote using the other remote only or getting a replacement. That would eliminate someone or something else with the same code. If it still occurs then it's probably an internal malfunction.
Your post regarding build dates and problems is interesting. I bought a 4/99 build and fully expected that there could be a few teething problems. Fortunately, after 25 months and 34,000 miles, replacement of a valve cover gasket has been the only repair needed. Headlights always dry as a bone, seats warm as toast, and all windows operate perfectly. Now, the whole thing may blow up tomorrow, but so far - so good.
I had the same experience (except reversed) 10 years ago when I had a Thunderbird SC. Avoided the first year of 1989 and bought a '90 model. Every possible thing you could imagine broke or malfunctioned on that thing! I still loved it, though.
I'm not implying the 2nd year is always worse. It is just that I'm not sure quality is predictable based on build dates, anymore.
I think Thomas' rant was aimed at dealers and corporations as a whole, not at the product development or engineering teams. Since companies exist to make a profit and shareholders today demand bigger and bigger profits, it's understandable why the bean counters make the decisions that they do. That doesn't mean it's fair to the consumer or that we like it. I'm sure that the LS team wants to make the car as perfect as possible because they are proud of their work (and should be). Jim Rogers wants to compete with BMW and give us things like a manual V8. Lincoln wants the dealers to be better but every time they try they get hauled to court and overturned.
Unfortunately, cars are selling better than ever and there is no obvious differentiation between regular brands (premium brands excluded, although they aren't immune either. If I brought my MB in for service and got an accord I wouldn't be happy, either).
Why do dealerships treat people so badly? Because they can. Why do mfrs choose not to issue recalls? Because they can. We (the public) continue to buy cars from these dealers and mfrs. Let's face it - unless there are financial incentives (or penalties) connected to customer service then it doesn't matter. The crappy dealerships and mfrs are selling just as many cars as the good ones, unfortunately. I think Ford should create a new brand (call it X) with new dealer franchises with strict rules and financial incentives for good service. Offer the new franchises to current FLM dealers first. Co-brand every FLM vehicle with Brand X, then ditch the old brands. That's the only way I can think of to get around the current crop of crappy, litigous dealers.
In my experience, Ford Management is INTENSLY concerned about quality improvement, and knows that it essential to profit improvement.
The intensity, however, has generated heat rather than light. They still want instant pudding, and have an insatiable need for monthly numbers that measure progress. If this month's numbers (on recent-produced vehicles with very low mileage)are worse than last month, last year, or objective, the engineering community is driven to explain the adverse variances, regardless of statistical significance.
This often results in the engineering community working on a different set of problems every month ... or at least pretending to.
The result? The major problems that nearly every design or production engineer has a handle on, lose the continuity of effort necessary for major improvement. Also, human and financial resources are diverted to the "correction" of insignificant issues that caused the blip in the numbers.
Why is this? Senior Management is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS. Why is this? It's deeply embedded in corporate culture ... the need for instant pudding is part of it.
I suspect that GM & Chrysler are similarly handicapped. Toyota's process for product improvement is very different, and it shows.
My rant was very general in nature. In any venture there are pockets of brightness and concern and it is really appreciated when discovered (hence my note about JR's team getting involved). My point was that these bright spots are the exception not the rule, despite the marketing spin that promises the opposite (The Lincoln Committment brochure for example). With respect to my LS, you could say that rant was directed at two lousy dealerships and the Lincoln Assistance Center. All three did very little to nothing to get me from broken to fixed.
akirby: I couldn't have said it better! Is it possible to map your brand X to GM's Saturn division? At least it is an attempt to "break the mold" of the usual manufacturer/dealer/customer process.
giowa: Great insight from the NYT article. I agree that six sigma and other QA programs fall victim to executive agendas and cost cutting. It is very common for programs that have abstract or indirect benefits to be cut simply because nobody is willing to build a suitable ROI. That means to put a price tag on NOT having a quality program. In the end, QA programs end up being a big arm waving excercise and eye candy for Power Point shows.
Gschwartz gives interesting insight into the way quality applications are working and not working at Ford. The Mercedes team that now runs Chrysler are implementing the Mercedes quality control steps they use in Germany. If Daimler sticks with it, Ford could end up on the bottom of the quality ladder in three years.
So, my question is, with class action lawsuits by older/white middle managers, government safety hearings on the Explorer, tire replacements, aging car lines (not all, to be sure); dealer anger over Blue Oval and factory stores, defection of leaders to other car companies, will FoMoCo be able to pull out of this?
..as we are led to believe by many posts here, but I do know this. The LS team at Lincoln is going to have a tough time making our wishes come true (making the LS more powerful/sportier, more performance oriented) because they are weighed down with Lincolns overall image. BMW's entire motto/lineup screams performance. Im talking the e-n-t-i-r-e model range. Even the the 740il has a "sport" package option with 18 inch rims/Z rated tires. Even their SUV is more carlike (based on the 5-series chassis) and can run the wheels off of many so-called sport sedans. Lexus has the GS performance sedans, and the little IS300 is definitely a performance car. Lincoln has....the LS. Thats it. Finito. Stuck in the middle of nowhere, so to speak.
Jim Rogers and crew, good luck. I was driving along in my LS V6 Sport last night thinking, "Man, this car is good. Even with 35,000 miles on the clock, this thing is still amazingly tight, exceptionally well-balanced handling-wise, and the 210hp V6 is smooth, and provides plenty of oomph for me, enough to allow it to hit triple digit speeds quite easily". Overall, Im extremely pleased with this car. But I dont see how Lincoln can build much upon this already great foundation.
Hopefully, we will all be pleasantly surprised with the 2003 models.
One thing we did at my company a few years ago was to take something that was abstract and had no real perceived cost and put a price tag on it. And I used those costs in business cases. Ours related to availability of computer systems and the cost of down time, but I think it applies to a lot of things. e.g.
Estimate the number of folks receiving poor customer service. Easy to do - take the complaints and determine what percentage of the people who had problems actually complained - probably < 20%. So the estimated number of unsatisfied customers is # of complaints x 5. Let's say that there were 5000 complaints, so that makes 25000 unhappy customers. Say 10% were so unhappy that they won't buy another Ford. That's 2500 sales. If the average profit per vehicle was $5K that means that Ford lost $12.5M to poor customer service. If you can fix that for $6M you've just saved $6.5M. That's how you justify the costs.
And yes - Saturn was indeed the inspiration for my suggestion. Along with Lexus and Infiniti and Acura. It's a lot easier to start over than to fix what's already there.
I for one would like to see some factory authorized F/L/M service centers. I'm sure the dealers would sue and win to keep it from happening, although I don't understand how they have that much control. These would only perform service, not sales and would be forced to survive on the quality of their work and customer satisfaction. As Thomas said, we have at least 4 dealerships within 20 miles here in North Atlanta and you would think competition would mean better service, but it doesn't. I use my selling dealer only because I get LS loaners, and because their service is no worse than the others. Only thing I can figure is that they get enough business from sales because some people think they have to take their car back for service or that it's so inconvenient to take it anywhere else. There is no other logical explanation.
I think the dealers would revolt as most of their profit comes from service and used cars not new car sales, which have diminishing profits as consumers have gotten wiser over the last few years.
The regular revenue from service (both warranty and non-warranty) and the high margin on used cars fuel dealers these days.
You know, someone hit it right on the head. The LS is a superior product (in my opinion), and as I was riding around yesterday in my "loaner" from Budget Rentacar (a Nissan Maxima), I really appreciated my LS all the more. The difference in my LS and my wifes Lexus is in the perception of excellence in the dealer experience. They treat us like royalty at the Lexus dealership and drive quite a way to pick up the car and leave a loaner (always a lexus, usually the GS) and then bring it back. You almost don't mind paying the ridiculous prices for the routine services. Then I get back my LS this noon and in response to my complaint that the bolster on the drivers seat was wearing through and had already lost its color, I read "Can't duplicate customers complaint". Now can anyone explain what the hell that means? How do you "duplicate" the obvious fact that the white color is wearing off on part of the seat? What are they talking about? Why do I have to spend an average of 1 1/2 hours being taken over to a rental car place and standing in line to "rent" a car with their voucher? Then having to drive there and be driven back to the dealership. A terrible waste of time and most annoying. The dealership experience may drive me over to Lexus, although I like my car better than I like my wifes GS300 (and it was cheaper). That new SC430 is looking mighty good.
Forgive me if this has been answered. I am assuming that since 235/50 -17's come with the sport package, that size should also fit on non-sport versions. Has anyone fit 255/45 -17's on a non-sport. How about 225/60 16's. Tire rack was running a super closeout on Firehawk SZ50 old version in the 225/60-16 size for $49. I bought eight. Thanks in advance Greg
Hello all! I've been following this message board for about 8 weeks now. After the first week I ordered my LS (V6 manual, chrome wheels, advance track, convenience package, all the toys basically) taking advantage of the great financing being offered. Today, after 7 long weeks I get a call from the dealership telling me that through some error, my car was never ordered!! (I had called them every 2 weeks for a status, and they told me July 12 or July 19 was to be the delivery date!! What the heck were they checking?!?!)
Anyway, they can't reorder a 2001 because of the model year change, and can't order a 2002 because the pricing information is not yet available. They also don't know about the financing offer being continued on the new models.
The dealer has been looking in the region (Northeast) to find a similar car, but I told him that for the money ($35k) I don't want to settle for features or a color that I don't want. I killed the deal and am getting my deposit back.
At this point I don't know whether to wait and find out the pricing and incentives for the new LS's (obviously I wouldn't go to the same dealer) or if I should buy something else (Lexus??)
You're right - the dealers would pitch a fit. But I don't see how that's any different than one dealership competing against another for service. All it would take is one good service center (dealer or not) - that would force the others to improve.
I'm at that point in my life where I don't mind paying extra for good service. If I had a dealer like the Lexus dealer described above that would fix my problems the first time, give me LS loaners at no cost whatsoever as well as pickup and deliver if necessary, I would be more than willing to shell out a little extra $$ to buy from such a dealer. Unfortunately I'm very picky about my choice of vehicles and since I normally spend very little time at the dealer anyway, that wouldn't dictate my choice of vehicles, although if all else were the same that would be a tie-breaker.
Whatever happened to the Lincoln certification program? I don't remember hearing anything about it other than from JR.
Welcome to "the Customer is King" as FLM defines it.
The car is better than the service (that's remarkably faint praise -- make that MUCH better), so hang in there.
Some of the recent posts outlining how Ford bought into Total Quality big time in the 80's and now "we're not so sure," have been more than interesting to me. I'm trying to wave the Total Quality flag in my company, but it's tough, and we don't even sell things to real people (we sell engines to "airframers" who sell airplanes to "operators" who sell tickets to actual schlubs who have to fly), so if a consumer company like Ford can't figure this out, perhaps we're all doomed. I hope not.
OTOH, let's see how Infiniti, Lexus & the Hun crowd (I'm German descent, so am authorized to say such things) do over the next 3-5 years. I'll certainly be watching, and voting with my next automobile purchase.
Amazing!!! Did you give the dealer a deposit? Any signed paperwork? If so, I'd hold the dealer responsible for honoring the financing incentives regardless. If you lose out on incentives because they failed to execute the paperwork, that is inexcusable.
If they refuse, I suggest you share the dealer name with us as we certainly don't want to do business with an operation like that.
Comments
As an interesting aside I was chatting with the shop owner who just bought a GS-400. He was considering a LS, S-type and 540i. He rented a Jag that had 15K miles on it. He said the rental Jag was really trashed and had a bad vibration which turned him off to getting a S-type.
Consumer Reports refers to the Taurus and Sable platforms as showing their age, and they were just reskinned. If Ford doesn't sell Explorers and Tauruses, they don't eat. My question is, "How much money is going to be available for the engineering improvements and quality improvements to the LS?"
My comparison to other cars includes only my prior-3 cars: Honda Accord (no problems in 4 years), Nissan Maxima (no problems in 5 years) and VW GTI (only 1-problem - frequent radio theft).
The LS is most disappointing because of the frequency of failures (12 and counting) and the resulting lack of confidence one 'should' have in a $40K luxury/sport sedan.
You rarely hear anyone compare Lincoln or BMW to Lexus because Lexus (Toyota) understands quality and customer care.
The bottomline is Life Time Value, the amount of business you'd bring in buying/leasing new cars from a car company over your lifetime. I 'was' worth over $500,000 to Lincoln, but not anymore!
So you see, if they get it ($500K) they should take much better care of the customer today and fix these defects to preserve the lifetime value, else they're the BIG loser overall!
Bill
I also have to agree with ronniepooh that you cannot expect a dealer/manufacturer to issue a recall for all regulators because one fails. There may only be 2% of the 2000 LS's that exhibit this problem, so the need to replace the other regulator because one failed makes no sense to me, or even the bean counters for that matter. That is what warranties are for. And if you have fears that you will see failures after the warranty period, they you are probably better served by purchasing an extended warranty. But these are a gamble as to whether they will pay off.
Good luck on your quest.
Interesting tidbits:
1. Wheelbase is 7.3 inches shorter than LS
2. Because of convertible configuration, has 3 bolt-on X-shaped underbody braces and a 3 inch diameter cross-car beam aft of the seats for added rigidity.
3. Has 235/50-17 Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 Tires on 17x7.5 chromed cast alloy wheels.
4. Weighs 3775 lbs.
5. Has a "smooth shifting" five speed auto
6. Not available with "Select-Shift"
7. Has 3:58 rear ratio
8. Did 0-60 in 7 sec flat
9. Did 1/4 mile in 15.2 @ 93.5 mph, a few tenths faster than the V-8 LS.
10. This is comparable with the IS300 performance figures.
11. did .83g on 200ft skidpad; 60.6 mph on 700 ft slolom.
12. Text mentioned "rumored Sport Package should cure the floaty feel over high speed dips"
13. "The T-Bird's doors and rear quarter panels are the only body parts made of steel; all others are made of SMC plastic".
14. Production first year, off the LS assembly line, is only 25,000 units. Available in two trim levels: Deluxe @ $35,495 and Premium @ $36,495, both including destination. The hardtop is $2500 additional. At those prices and only 25,000 units per year, that's only a couple per dealer. Put your money down now and don't even think about buying below list. This could be the next PT Cruiser in popularity. Wixom might as well convert the whole line to T-Bird production and forget the LS. Watch for pressure at Wixom in producing both vehicles at one time IMHO.
15. I credit the 3:58 rear for this heavy car's stellar performance in a straight line compared with the V-8 LS. Handling is exceptional considering the poorer 54/46 F/R weight balance vs the LS.
16. Imagine SMC plastic body panels on the LS for weight savings, as well as 3:58 in the rear as well! These are the same panels as used on the Saturn - shopping cart proof!
Have a great LS derived day!
Thanks to stanny1 giving us the scoop on the availability of the re-engineered window replacement part - I was totally prepared when I went to a local Ford/Mercury (not even Lincoln) dealer to have the part replaced. They were more than helpful!
If you have the 2000 model and expected perfection - maybe you shouldn't have. If you have a 2001 and are experiencing these problems... then you have more of a right to be upset.
I guess you must have missed all the problems listed on this LS section. Let's recap: failing to start, flooding, battery, electrical, window issues, TIRE ISSUES (Firestone), even one guy calling his LS a lemon! Who the hell are you fooling? It sure doesn't take a scientist (or a Lincoln salesman) to figure out which car has more issues!
What the heck does this mean?
Let's talk about the LS. Sure, I have posted that I was aggravated by minor problems, but I think it would take an active imagination to see the type of complaints we have had as being indicative of a problem car. For example, what Firestone "TIRE ISSUES" are you talking about? The fact that most of us seem to be getting great longevity from our relatively inexpensive Firestones? The fact that some have switched to other brands for various reasons? Perhaps you mistakenly thought that LS's were being supplied with Wilderness AT's? I guess I missed the point of your post, but in my opinion the LS is relatively trouble free. My car has been great. I would reccomend it to anyone. It has been far more trouble free than any of the BMW's, Acura's, or Mercedes' I have previously owned and about the same as my wifes Lexus.
I've freely acknowledged the repeated heated seat problems (the seat wouldn't heat) and intermittent airbag warning light problem (it would come on and stay on for no reason) I experienced in the first 20,000 or so miles. And the dealer service ain't in same league as I was used to from my prior two Infiniti (what is the plural of Infiniti?).
All I'm saying is the LS8 Sport and LS6 Sport Manual are better all around high performance sport sedans than the 300M. The LS is the poor man's enthusiast sedan (e.g., in comparison to BMW 540i 6-speed) and I'm willing to concede that the 300M is the poorer man's enthusiast sedan (in comparison to the more expensive LS). I could afford a 300M and an LS but not a 540i manual. So I bought the best I could afford. And I wanted a new car. I bought the LS8 Sport.
I have an 00 LSV8 with 11K miles. I get the mystery beep about once every 6 to 8 weeks. Today, finally, I could read something on the message center. It was four words long. The first word and a half were "Gear Select...". I could not read the rest.
Any ideas? I would hope that newer models have been programmed to display the messages longer. Otherwise, just turn them (and the beep) off.
Cheers.
Bill
After a few deep breaths I can agree that this is not Lincolns exclusive domain. There is just a general "lack of give a $hit" in today's market. Sell more using less labor and get more for it. For example, I have been in a "full service" Marriott hotel for the last four weeks and there are two things that really make my day in a hotel:
1. In room coffee maker & supplies
2. Morning newspaper, preferably a Wall Street Journal.
All the rest of the crap (that means value-ads) they push is just noise, but I have yet to get my coffee supplies refreshed or a newspaper consistently for more than two days in a row. Why is that? The hotel management doesn't care. I am one of hundreds of guests and my newspaper and coffee is the LAST thing they will get focus on. And it will be the same pretty much everywhere else too. They are hoping I will leave so they can hear someone else complain for a change.
It doesn't matter if you are buying a $40k car, a $100/night hotel room, or a $2.99 Value Meal. Nobody really cares if you got what you expected or wanted because they aren't paid to care and there are people lined up behind you to get the same crappy service, so why bother.
Tom...
________________________________________________
"GEAR SELECT DATA ERROR" means there is a communication error sending the transmission position (PRND5D4321) to the instrument cluster.
Dealers have detailed troubleshooting procedures to fix this error.
--------------------
Mark Kovalsky
First of all, this is an open forum and should not be tainted by only the 'good' feedback as some suggest to 'paint a rosey picture' for the LS. Mine is a lemon, after 12+ failures and less that respectable service at the "Presidents Award" dealershit, I think I have a right to sound off a little, after all, these are facts!
Failures:
1) Defective sterio / dash lights at delivery day #1, so much for dealer prep
2) Left stranded - fuel system
3) Right rear window - regulator
4) Headlight fogged-up
5) Left stranded - fuel system - again
6) Drone sound at 55 mph - half-shaft replacement
7) Front suspension - recall
8) Misc electrical problems / steering wheel
9) Auto-wipers, memory mirror & seat
10) Sterio / dash lights - again
11) Poor shifting - Transmission reflash
12) Left rear window / global open - regulator
13) Flat spots / vibration - Firestone tires
14) Slow downshift / hesitation - tranny reflash
enough said...
JD Powers and Associates just released their Customer Satisfaction Service Index and Lexus won again for the 5th year with Saturn second and Caddy 3rd, with GM taking 5-of the top-10. Ford had (0) in the top-10, enough said!
I acquired my LS8 Sport in April '00, giving Lincoln almost 1-year to produce the LS (starting May '99) and work out most of the defects, so I feel I waited long enough and didn't jump at the early production fearing more defects.
The LS has been a big disappointment, even though it is a good (not great) driving car, it still has the 2-1 downshift hesitation (2-3 seconds) that is my biggest complaint.
Funny, I haven't heard a word from Jim Rogers lately...
Ford knows it has a problem. "Had Ford stuck with [TQM] it might have avoided many of the problems that have plagued it recently."
Will be interesting to see if 6 Sigma will bring back TQM/CQI culture. It is a concept popularized by General Electric in the '90s. "Is a lot more structured and profit-oriented than [TQM]."
I think TQM/CQI is far superior in changing and maintaining a quality culture. 6 Sigma has people looking at problems after the fact. They then do cost-benefit analysis to see if it is profitable to fix the problem. If not, the problem isn't fixed. "Each project has to improve processes 70 percent and produce $250,000 in cost savings" or it won't be approved.
TQM/CQI said prevent problems and fix them if/when identified. Quality pays for itself in long run.
Interestingly enough, the human interest part of the story is about a Ford Manager, Chris Davis, who used 6 Sigma to work on "the source of vibrations in 2000 Super Duty F-Series trucks and Excursion [SUVs], which led to a "realigned front end suspension". Problem caused by "subtle design alterations in some parts from previous models."
With 6 Sigma smaller production-run models like LS will take back seat to trucks, SUVs, Taurus, etc. Maybe this is why some of the repeated LS issues, like window regulators, aren't being addressed like maybe they should?
If you have looked at any of the myriad back posts on this forum you will realize that your statement about "painting a rosy picture" is incorrect. There are numerous postings regarding problems with the LS. This board, while it supports the LS, does not have any problems with also showing the down side of the car.
Does your state have a lemon law? Use it and get out of your car if you are unhappy with both the dealer and the factory. That's what it is there for. And so is the Lincoln Customer Center.
By the way, the time period that your car was produced is the most problem-prone time frame in the LS production history. Why? Don't know but most of the problem cars appear to have been built in the Feb 00-Jun 00 timeframe.
Lincoln is rated at number EIGHT. In comparison, Mercedes Benz was rated number THIRTEEN. BMW at number 7.
If you want a perfect car you will have to build it yourself. Oh darn, that still isn't a guarantee that all will function perfectly. There hasn't been a car made that wasn't recalled for something. That is, since they started recalling them. In the old days you just had to suck it up! How much money are you out of pocket for these issues? I'll bet zero. You will get your car fixed for free and be provided with a loaner until it is fixed. I agree that it is VERY annoying. Just be a little patient and work with your dealer. If they don't provide the service that you deserve, find another!
And as ezair and albert state, if you cannot successfully find a dealer that will respond to you in the proper way and fix the warranty repairs, then you should engage Lincoln customer care to get it fixed. Venting on this board is one thing, but it won't get your problem fixed. You need to take that to the dealer and to Lincoln. Hope you can get a successful resolution though.
Thanks for the reply. I wish it was that simple. My office is about 300 yards from where I park my car, second floor and blocked by about 20 office walls. I asked dealer if it was possible that someone had the same frequency on the remote and they told me it wasn't possible (per their check with Ford/LM techs). Also, I asked them if it was possible that airplanes landing/taking off at O'Hare In'tl could trigger this (since they have a few more computers and radio frequencies on board than the LS)and they said no. As far as the joke you played on your ex friend......good one, at least you let him off the hook before it got crazy. Thanks.
Thomas, Not sure if this is aimed at the dealerships or at Lincoln itself. I just wanted to contest this statement; The LS has a committed team of people behind it that strives to make the car Best in Class. Don't sell us short!
Scooter
Try switching remotes to see if that particular remote is faulty and is generating unwanted button presses. If that doesn't fix it I would reprogram without the current remote using the other remote only or getting a replacement. That would eliminate someone or something else with the same code. If it still occurs then it's probably an internal malfunction.
I had the same experience (except reversed) 10 years ago when I had a Thunderbird SC. Avoided the first year of 1989 and bought a '90 model. Every possible thing you could imagine broke or malfunctioned on that thing! I still loved it, though.
I'm not implying the 2nd year is always worse. It is just that I'm not sure quality is predictable based on build dates, anymore.
Unfortunately, cars are selling better than ever and there is no obvious differentiation between regular brands (premium brands excluded, although they aren't immune either. If I brought my MB in for service and got an accord I wouldn't be happy, either).
Why do dealerships treat people so badly? Because they can.
Why do mfrs choose not to issue recalls? Because they can.
We (the public) continue to buy cars from these dealers and mfrs.
Let's face it - unless there are financial incentives (or penalties) connected to customer service then it doesn't matter. The crappy dealerships and mfrs are selling just as many cars as the good ones, unfortunately.
I think Ford should create a new brand (call it X) with new dealer franchises with strict rules and financial incentives for good service. Offer the new franchises to current FLM dealers first. Co-brand every FLM vehicle with Brand X, then ditch the old brands. That's the only way I can think of to get around the current crop of crappy, litigous dealers.
Sorry - got a little carried away. :-)
The intensity, however, has generated heat rather than light. They still want instant pudding, and have an insatiable need for monthly numbers that measure progress. If this month's numbers (on recent-produced vehicles with very low mileage)are worse than last month, last year, or objective, the engineering community is driven to explain the adverse variances, regardless of statistical significance.
This often results in the engineering community working on a different set of problems every month ... or at least pretending to.
The result? The major problems that nearly every design or production engineer has a handle on, lose the continuity of effort necessary for major improvement. Also, human and financial resources are diverted to the "correction" of insignificant issues that caused the blip in the numbers.
Why is this? Senior Management is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS. Why is this? It's deeply embedded in corporate culture ... the need for instant pudding is part of it.
I suspect that GM & Chrysler are similarly handicapped. Toyota's process for product improvement is very different, and it shows.
Phew! I feel better now.
G.
akirby: I couldn't have said it better! Is it possible to map your brand X to GM's Saturn division? At least it is an attempt to "break the mold" of the usual manufacturer/dealer/customer process.
giowa: Great insight from the NYT article. I agree that six sigma and other QA programs fall victim to executive agendas and cost cutting. It is very common for programs that have abstract or indirect benefits to be cut simply because nobody is willing to build a suitable ROI. That means to put a price tag on NOT having a quality program. In the end, QA programs end up being a big arm waving excercise and eye candy for Power Point shows.
So, my question is, with class action lawsuits by older/white middle managers, government safety hearings on the Explorer, tire replacements, aging car lines (not all, to be sure); dealer anger over Blue Oval and factory stores, defection of leaders to other car companies, will FoMoCo be able to pull out of this?
Jim Rogers and crew, good luck. I was driving along in my LS V6 Sport last night thinking, "Man, this car is good. Even with 35,000 miles on the clock, this thing is still amazingly tight, exceptionally well-balanced handling-wise, and the 210hp V6 is smooth, and provides plenty of oomph for me, enough to allow it to hit triple digit speeds quite easily". Overall, Im extremely pleased with this car. But I dont see how Lincoln can build much upon this already great foundation.
Hopefully, we will all be pleasantly surprised with the 2003 models.
Estimate the number of folks receiving poor customer service. Easy to do - take the complaints and determine what percentage of the people who had problems actually complained - probably < 20%. So the estimated number of unsatisfied customers is # of complaints x 5. Let's say that there were 5000 complaints, so that makes 25000 unhappy customers. Say 10% were so unhappy that they won't buy another Ford. That's 2500 sales. If the average profit per vehicle was $5K that means that Ford lost $12.5M to poor customer service. If you can fix that for $6M you've just saved $6.5M. That's how you justify the costs.
And yes - Saturn was indeed the inspiration for my suggestion. Along with Lexus and Infiniti and Acura. It's a lot easier to start over than to fix what's already there.
The regular revenue from service (both warranty and non-warranty) and the high margin on used cars fuel dealers these days.
Thanks in advance
Greg
Anyway, they can't reorder a 2001 because of the model year change, and can't order a 2002 because the pricing information is not yet available. They also don't know about the financing offer being continued on the new models.
The dealer has been looking in the region (Northeast) to find a similar car, but I told him that for the money ($35k) I don't want to settle for features or a color that I don't want. I killed the deal and am getting my deposit back.
At this point I don't know whether to wait and find out the pricing and incentives for the new LS's (obviously I wouldn't go to the same dealer) or if I should buy something else (Lexus??)
Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tom
I'm at that point in my life where I don't mind paying extra for good service. If I had a dealer like the Lexus dealer described above that would fix my problems the first time, give me LS loaners at no cost whatsoever as well as pickup and deliver if necessary, I would be more than willing to shell out a little extra $$ to buy from such a dealer. Unfortunately I'm very picky about my choice of vehicles and since I normally spend very little time at the dealer anyway, that wouldn't dictate my choice of vehicles, although if all else were the same that would be a tie-breaker.
Whatever happened to the Lincoln certification program? I don't remember hearing anything about it other than from JR.
The car is better than the service (that's remarkably faint praise -- make that MUCH better), so hang in there.
Some of the recent posts outlining how Ford bought into Total Quality big time in the 80's and now "we're not so sure," have been more than interesting to me. I'm trying to wave the Total Quality flag in my company, but it's tough, and we don't even sell things to real people (we sell engines to "airframers" who sell airplanes to "operators" who sell tickets to actual schlubs who have to fly), so if a consumer company like Ford can't figure this out, perhaps we're all doomed. I hope not.
OTOH, let's see how Infiniti, Lexus & the Hun crowd (I'm German descent, so am authorized to say such things) do over the next 3-5 years. I'll certainly be watching, and voting with my next automobile purchase.
If they refuse, I suggest you share the dealer name with us as we certainly don't want to do business with an operation like that.