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Comments
As an interesting aside I was chatting with the shop owner who just bought a GS-400. He was considering a LS, S-type and 540i. He rented a Jag that had 15K miles on it. He said the rental Jag was really trashed and had a bad vibration which turned him off to getting a S-type.
Consumer Reports refers to the Taurus and Sable platforms as showing their age, and they were just reskinned. If Ford doesn't sell Explorers and Tauruses, they don't eat. My question is, "How much money is going to be available for the engineering improvements and quality improvements to the LS?"
My comparison to other cars includes only my prior-3 cars: Honda Accord (no problems in 4 years), Nissan Maxima (no problems in 5 years) and VW GTI (only 1-problem - frequent radio theft).
The LS is most disappointing because of the frequency of failures (12 and counting) and the resulting lack of confidence one 'should' have in a $40K luxury/sport sedan.
You rarely hear anyone compare Lincoln or BMW to Lexus because Lexus (Toyota) understands quality and customer care.
The bottomline is Life Time Value, the amount of business you'd bring in buying/leasing new cars from a car company over your lifetime. I 'was' worth over $500,000 to Lincoln, but not anymore!
So you see, if they get it ($500K) they should take much better care of the customer today and fix these defects to preserve the lifetime value, else they're the BIG loser overall!
Bill
I also have to agree with ronniepooh that you cannot expect a dealer/manufacturer to issue a recall for all regulators because one fails. There may only be 2% of the 2000 LS's that exhibit this problem, so the need to replace the other regulator because one failed makes no sense to me, or even the bean counters for that matter. That is what warranties are for. And if you have fears that you will see failures after the warranty period, they you are probably better served by purchasing an extended warranty. But these are a gamble as to whether they will pay off.
Good luck on your quest.
Interesting tidbits:
1. Wheelbase is 7.3 inches shorter than LS
2. Because of convertible configuration, has 3 bolt-on X-shaped underbody braces and a 3 inch diameter cross-car beam aft of the seats for added rigidity.
3. Has 235/50-17 Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 Tires on 17x7.5 chromed cast alloy wheels.
4. Weighs 3775 lbs.
5. Has a "smooth shifting" five speed auto
6. Not available with "Select-Shift"
7. Has 3:58 rear ratio
8. Did 0-60 in 7 sec flat
9. Did 1/4 mile in 15.2 @ 93.5 mph, a few tenths faster than the V-8 LS.
10. This is comparable with the IS300 performance figures.
11. did .83g on 200ft skidpad; 60.6 mph on 700 ft slolom.
12. Text mentioned "rumored Sport Package should cure the floaty feel over high speed dips"
13. "The T-Bird's doors and rear quarter panels are the only body parts made of steel; all others are made of SMC plastic".
14. Production first year, off the LS assembly line, is only 25,000 units. Available in two trim levels: Deluxe @ $35,495 and Premium @ $36,495, both including destination. The hardtop is $2500 additional. At those prices and only 25,000 units per year, that's only a couple per dealer. Put your money down now and don't even think about buying below list. This could be the next PT Cruiser in popularity. Wixom might as well convert the whole line to T-Bird production and forget the LS. Watch for pressure at Wixom in producing both vehicles at one time IMHO.
15. I credit the 3:58 rear for this heavy car's stellar performance in a straight line compared with the V-8 LS. Handling is exceptional considering the poorer 54/46 F/R weight balance vs the LS.
16. Imagine SMC plastic body panels on the LS for weight savings, as well as 3:58 in the rear as well! These are the same panels as used on the Saturn - shopping cart proof!
Have a great LS derived day!
Thanks to stanny1 giving us the scoop on the availability of the re-engineered window replacement part - I was totally prepared when I went to a local Ford/Mercury (not even Lincoln) dealer to have the part replaced. They were more than helpful!
If you have the 2000 model and expected perfection - maybe you shouldn't have. If you have a 2001 and are experiencing these problems... then you have more of a right to be upset.
I guess you must have missed all the problems listed on this LS section. Let's recap: failing to start, flooding, battery, electrical, window issues, TIRE ISSUES (Firestone), even one guy calling his LS a lemon! Who the hell are you fooling? It sure doesn't take a scientist (or a Lincoln salesman) to figure out which car has more issues!
What the heck does this mean?
Let's talk about the LS. Sure, I have posted that I was aggravated by minor problems, but I think it would take an active imagination to see the type of complaints we have had as being indicative of a problem car. For example, what Firestone "TIRE ISSUES" are you talking about? The fact that most of us seem to be getting great longevity from our relatively inexpensive Firestones? The fact that some have switched to other brands for various reasons? Perhaps you mistakenly thought that LS's were being supplied with Wilderness AT's? I guess I missed the point of your post, but in my opinion the LS is relatively trouble free. My car has been great. I would reccomend it to anyone. It has been far more trouble free than any of the BMW's, Acura's, or Mercedes' I have previously owned and about the same as my wifes Lexus.
I've freely acknowledged the repeated heated seat problems (the seat wouldn't heat) and intermittent airbag warning light problem (it would come on and stay on for no reason) I experienced in the first 20,000 or so miles. And the dealer service ain't in same league as I was used to from my prior two Infiniti (what is the plural of Infiniti?).
All I'm saying is the LS8 Sport and LS6 Sport Manual are better all around high performance sport sedans than the 300M. The LS is the poor man's enthusiast sedan (e.g., in comparison to BMW 540i 6-speed) and I'm willing to concede that the 300M is the poorer man's enthusiast sedan (in comparison to the more expensive LS). I could afford a 300M and an LS but not a 540i manual. So I bought the best I could afford. And I wanted a new car. I bought the LS8 Sport.
I have an 00 LSV8 with 11K miles. I get the mystery beep about once every 6 to 8 weeks. Today, finally, I could read something on the message center. It was four words long. The first word and a half were "Gear Select...". I could not read the rest.
Any ideas? I would hope that newer models have been programmed to display the messages longer. Otherwise, just turn them (and the beep) off.
Cheers.
Bill
After a few deep breaths I can agree that this is not Lincolns exclusive domain. There is just a general "lack of give a $hit" in today's market. Sell more using less labor and get more for it. For example, I have been in a "full service" Marriott hotel for the last four weeks and there are two things that really make my day in a hotel:
1. In room coffee maker & supplies
2. Morning newspaper, preferably a Wall Street Journal.
All the rest of the crap (that means value-ads) they push is just noise, but I have yet to get my coffee supplies refreshed or a newspaper consistently for more than two days in a row. Why is that? The hotel management doesn't care. I am one of hundreds of guests and my newspaper and coffee is the LAST thing they will get focus on. And it will be the same pretty much everywhere else too. They are hoping I will leave so they can hear someone else complain for a change.
It doesn't matter if you are buying a $40k car, a $100/night hotel room, or a $2.99 Value Meal. Nobody really cares if you got what you expected or wanted because they aren't paid to care and there are people lined up behind you to get the same crappy service, so why bother.
Tom...
________________________________________________
"GEAR SELECT DATA ERROR" means there is a communication error sending the transmission position (PRND5D4321) to the instrument cluster.
Dealers have detailed troubleshooting procedures to fix this error.
--------------------
Mark Kovalsky
First of all, this is an open forum and should not be tainted by only the 'good' feedback as some suggest to 'paint a rosey picture' for the LS. Mine is a lemon, after 12+ failures and less that respectable service at the "Presidents Award" dealershit, I think I have a right to sound off a little, after all, these are facts!
Failures:
1) Defective sterio / dash lights at delivery day #1, so much for dealer prep
2) Left stranded - fuel system
3) Right rear window - regulator
4) Headlight fogged-up
5) Left stranded - fuel system - again
6) Drone sound at 55 mph - half-shaft replacement
7) Front suspension - recall
8) Misc electrical problems / steering wheel
9) Auto-wipers, memory mirror & seat
10) Sterio / dash lights - again
11) Poor shifting - Transmission reflash
12) Left rear window / global open - regulator
13) Flat spots / vibration - Firestone tires
14) Slow downshift / hesitation - tranny reflash
enough said...
JD Powers and Associates just released their Customer Satisfaction Service Index and Lexus won again for the 5th year with Saturn second and Caddy 3rd, with GM taking 5-of the top-10. Ford had (0) in the top-10, enough said!
I acquired my LS8 Sport in April '00, giving Lincoln almost 1-year to produce the LS (starting May '99) and work out most of the defects, so I feel I waited long enough and didn't jump at the early production fearing more defects.
The LS has been a big disappointment, even though it is a good (not great) driving car, it still has the 2-1 downshift hesitation (2-3 seconds) that is my biggest complaint.
Funny, I haven't heard a word from Jim Rogers lately...
Ford knows it has a problem. "Had Ford stuck with [TQM] it might have avoided many of the problems that have plagued it recently."
Will be interesting to see if 6 Sigma will bring back TQM/CQI culture. It is a concept popularized by General Electric in the '90s. "Is a lot more structured and profit-oriented than [TQM]."
I think TQM/CQI is far superior in changing and maintaining a quality culture. 6 Sigma has people looking at problems after the fact. They then do cost-benefit analysis to see if it is profitable to fix the problem. If not, the problem isn't fixed. "Each project has to improve processes 70 percent and produce $250,000 in cost savings" or it won't be approved.
TQM/CQI said prevent problems and fix them if/when identified. Quality pays for itself in long run.
Interestingly enough, the human interest part of the story is about a Ford Manager, Chris Davis, who used 6 Sigma to work on "the source of vibrations in 2000 Super Duty F-Series trucks and Excursion [SUVs], which led to a "realigned front end suspension". Problem caused by "subtle design alterations in some parts from previous models."
With 6 Sigma smaller production-run models like LS will take back seat to trucks, SUVs, Taurus, etc. Maybe this is why some of the repeated LS issues, like window regulators, aren't being addressed like maybe they should?
If you have looked at any of the myriad back posts on this forum you will realize that your statement about "painting a rosy picture" is incorrect. There are numerous postings regarding problems with the LS. This board, while it supports the LS, does not have any problems with also showing the down side of the car.
Does your state have a lemon law? Use it and get out of your car if you are unhappy with both the dealer and the factory. That's what it is there for. And so is the Lincoln Customer Center.
By the way, the time period that your car was produced is the most problem-prone time frame in the LS production history. Why? Don't know but most of the problem cars appear to have been built in the Feb 00-Jun 00 timeframe.
Lincoln is rated at number EIGHT. In comparison, Mercedes Benz was rated number THIRTEEN. BMW at number 7.
If you want a perfect car you will have to build it yourself. Oh darn, that still isn't a guarantee that all will function perfectly. There hasn't been a car made that wasn't recalled for something. That is, since they started recalling them. In the old days you just had to suck it up! How much money are you out of pocket for these issues? I'll bet zero. You will get your car fixed for free and be provided with a loaner until it is fixed. I agree that it is VERY annoying. Just be a little patient and work with your dealer. If they don't provide the service that you deserve, find another!
And as ezair and albert state, if you cannot successfully find a dealer that will respond to you in the proper way and fix the warranty repairs, then you should engage Lincoln customer care to get it fixed. Venting on this board is one thing, but it won't get your problem fixed. You need to take that to the dealer and to Lincoln. Hope you can get a successful resolution though.
Thanks for the reply. I wish it was that simple. My office is about 300 yards from where I park my car, second floor and blocked by about 20 office walls. I asked dealer if it was possible that someone had the same frequency on the remote and they told me it wasn't possible (per their check with Ford/LM techs). Also, I asked them if it was possible that airplanes landing/taking off at O'Hare In'tl could trigger this (since they have a few more computers and radio frequencies on board than the LS)and they said no. As far as the joke you played on your ex friend......good one, at least you let him off the hook before it got crazy. Thanks.
Thomas, Not sure if this is aimed at the dealerships or at Lincoln itself. I just wanted to contest this statement; The LS has a committed team of people behind it that strives to make the car Best in Class. Don't sell us short!
Scooter
Try switching remotes to see if that particular remote is faulty and is generating unwanted button presses. If that doesn't fix it I would reprogram without the current remote using the other remote only or getting a replacement. That would eliminate someone or something else with the same code. If it still occurs then it's probably an internal malfunction.
I had the same experience (except reversed) 10 years ago when I had a Thunderbird SC. Avoided the first year of 1989 and bought a '90 model. Every possible thing you could imagine broke or malfunctioned on that thing! I still loved it, though.
I'm not implying the 2nd year is always worse. It is just that I'm not sure quality is predictable based on build dates, anymore.
Unfortunately, cars are selling better than ever and there is no obvious differentiation between regular brands (premium brands excluded, although they aren't immune either. If I brought my MB in for service and got an accord I wouldn't be happy, either).
Why do dealerships treat people so badly? Because they can.
Why do mfrs choose not to issue recalls? Because they can.
We (the public) continue to buy cars from these dealers and mfrs.
Let's face it - unless there are financial incentives (or penalties) connected to customer service then it doesn't matter. The crappy dealerships and mfrs are selling just as many cars as the good ones, unfortunately.
I think Ford should create a new brand (call it X) with new dealer franchises with strict rules and financial incentives for good service. Offer the new franchises to current FLM dealers first. Co-brand every FLM vehicle with Brand X, then ditch the old brands. That's the only way I can think of to get around the current crop of crappy, litigous dealers.
Sorry - got a little carried away. :-)
The intensity, however, has generated heat rather than light. They still want instant pudding, and have an insatiable need for monthly numbers that measure progress. If this month's numbers (on recent-produced vehicles with very low mileage)are worse than last month, last year, or objective, the engineering community is driven to explain the adverse variances, regardless of statistical significance.
This often results in the engineering community working on a different set of problems every month ... or at least pretending to.
The result? The major problems that nearly every design or production engineer has a handle on, lose the continuity of effort necessary for major improvement. Also, human and financial resources are diverted to the "correction" of insignificant issues that caused the blip in the numbers.
Why is this? Senior Management is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS. Why is this? It's deeply embedded in corporate culture ... the need for instant pudding is part of it.
I suspect that GM & Chrysler are similarly handicapped. Toyota's process for product improvement is very different, and it shows.
Phew! I feel better now.
G.
akirby: I couldn't have said it better! Is it possible to map your brand X to GM's Saturn division? At least it is an attempt to "break the mold" of the usual manufacturer/dealer/customer process.
giowa: Great insight from the NYT article. I agree that six sigma and other QA programs fall victim to executive agendas and cost cutting. It is very common for programs that have abstract or indirect benefits to be cut simply because nobody is willing to build a suitable ROI. That means to put a price tag on NOT having a quality program. In the end, QA programs end up being a big arm waving excercise and eye candy for Power Point shows.
So, my question is, with class action lawsuits by older/white middle managers, government safety hearings on the Explorer, tire replacements, aging car lines (not all, to be sure); dealer anger over Blue Oval and factory stores, defection of leaders to other car companies, will FoMoCo be able to pull out of this?
Jim Rogers and crew, good luck. I was driving along in my LS V6 Sport last night thinking, "Man, this car is good. Even with 35,000 miles on the clock, this thing is still amazingly tight, exceptionally well-balanced handling-wise, and the 210hp V6 is smooth, and provides plenty of oomph for me, enough to allow it to hit triple digit speeds quite easily". Overall, Im extremely pleased with this car. But I dont see how Lincoln can build much upon this already great foundation.
Hopefully, we will all be pleasantly surprised with the 2003 models.
Estimate the number of folks receiving poor customer service. Easy to do - take the complaints and determine what percentage of the people who had problems actually complained - probably < 20%. So the estimated number of unsatisfied customers is # of complaints x 5. Let's say that there were 5000 complaints, so that makes 25000 unhappy customers. Say 10% were so unhappy that they won't buy another Ford. That's 2500 sales. If the average profit per vehicle was $5K that means that Ford lost $12.5M to poor customer service. If you can fix that for $6M you've just saved $6.5M. That's how you justify the costs.
And yes - Saturn was indeed the inspiration for my suggestion. Along with Lexus and Infiniti and Acura. It's a lot easier to start over than to fix what's already there.
The regular revenue from service (both warranty and non-warranty) and the high margin on used cars fuel dealers these days.
Thanks in advance
Greg
Anyway, they can't reorder a 2001 because of the model year change, and can't order a 2002 because the pricing information is not yet available. They also don't know about the financing offer being continued on the new models.
The dealer has been looking in the region (Northeast) to find a similar car, but I told him that for the money ($35k) I don't want to settle for features or a color that I don't want. I killed the deal and am getting my deposit back.
At this point I don't know whether to wait and find out the pricing and incentives for the new LS's (obviously I wouldn't go to the same dealer) or if I should buy something else (Lexus??)
Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tom
I'm at that point in my life where I don't mind paying extra for good service. If I had a dealer like the Lexus dealer described above that would fix my problems the first time, give me LS loaners at no cost whatsoever as well as pickup and deliver if necessary, I would be more than willing to shell out a little extra $$ to buy from such a dealer. Unfortunately I'm very picky about my choice of vehicles and since I normally spend very little time at the dealer anyway, that wouldn't dictate my choice of vehicles, although if all else were the same that would be a tie-breaker.
Whatever happened to the Lincoln certification program? I don't remember hearing anything about it other than from JR.
The car is better than the service (that's remarkably faint praise -- make that MUCH better), so hang in there.
Some of the recent posts outlining how Ford bought into Total Quality big time in the 80's and now "we're not so sure," have been more than interesting to me. I'm trying to wave the Total Quality flag in my company, but it's tough, and we don't even sell things to real people (we sell engines to "airframers" who sell airplanes to "operators" who sell tickets to actual schlubs who have to fly), so if a consumer company like Ford can't figure this out, perhaps we're all doomed. I hope not.
OTOH, let's see how Infiniti, Lexus & the Hun crowd (I'm German descent, so am authorized to say such things) do over the next 3-5 years. I'll certainly be watching, and voting with my next automobile purchase.
If they refuse, I suggest you share the dealer name with us as we certainly don't want to do business with an operation like that.