Most of the info you are requesting isn't available from ANY maker. They aren't going to "spill the beans" so that they can't sell the current model. I LOVE my LS (V6 non-sport). I opened up the airbox and installed the Borla. Those 2 things make a huge difference!
I'm planning to buy a sport sedan sometime in the next few months and wanted to see what LS owners thought of a few issues:
1. Coming from a family that's owned nothing but RWD V-8 cars since I was a kid, the LS has some natural appeal. But now that I live in a big city up north, I wonder if a FWD car is a better tradeoff. How does your LS deal with rain and snow? Does AdvanceTrac make a difference?
2. Some people have mentioned that the automatic transmission is sometimes slow to shift. Has Lincoln solved this problem?
3. Why would you say the LS is better than an Acura TL Type S?
This morning I was driving though a rather significant thunderstorm in southeast Austin. I didn't think I was going that fast, but, on a curve, I hit a puddle that wasn't apparent. The car took off and slid about a foot--fortunately, I followed the rules, managed to keep it in my lane, didn't hit anything, and kept going. (AdvanceTrac didn't activate as far as I could tell--event probably didn't last long enough.)
It was scary, to say the least. I felt like Mo Gugelmin at Road America a couple weeks ago. I glanced at my speedo, and I was going 49 miles an hour. Not very fast, but obviously too fast for that particular condition.
It's been raining like crazy here this week & I've been driving lots of miles in it by necessity rather than choice. The Firestones, in general, seem to perform quite admirably in the wet--for the price, I can't complain. In this case, though, they were overwhelmed.
Take a hint from me and be careful out there. Bad stuff can happen in a BIG hurry.
scottc8... See post 4599 above. I have driven lots of cars and am now driving lots more, including the LS. Just short time back wife saw ad in paper for $11,000 of sticker for Continental. As a lark, we put on some nice clothes and test drove one. We didn't like it at all. Great engine ruined by mediocre platform, steering, brakes, and transmission. Continental not worth even $29,000. So salesperson had us drive an LS V-6. Told him we couldn't afford a V-8. An automatic with Sport Package. Great platform, steering, and brakes marred by a mediocre engine and transmission. I mean, a Taurus/Sable engine in a $32,000 car? Couldn't imagine getting a 3.0L Jag S-type with modified Taurus engine.) Also like the clean styling. But that drive caused us both to be bitten by the car bug. Heck, wife is pouring over magazines. Stopped by Infiniti, Acura, & VW dealers this past week. In search of the "perfect" mix of luxury (for her) and performance (for me). Can't wait for the auto show season to start. Then we can sit in a zillion different cars all in one day. But I want to supplement my own biased subjective opinions and evaluations with lots of other opinions and test data.
nosho... Where is this info on the 250 hp 3.3L V-6 located here? What post number(s)? One out of 3 not too promising. All the more reason to wait for the G35. What are the respective power to weight ratios for 530i and LS V-6 manuals? Published acceleration times?
Glad to see all opinions are welcome. That should include those of us who are NOT LS fanatics, are interested in lots of other cars, aren't afraid to express an opinion or point out the emperor might be naked.
All other things being equal, FWD has a slight edge, IMHO, but not many cars equal the LS for balance, handling, and steering precision. It's an excellent winter car. Yes, AdvanceTrac helps, and a lot of people are very pleased with Blizzak snow tires. To each his own, but if you like the LS enough to buy one, don't shy away from it over concerns about snow driving.
riez, excuse me if I've mistaken you for an "armchair" car critic. I was also a little underwhelmed by the LS6 I test drove, but most people have found the engine loosens up a lot after some break-in miles. Maybe you can find one with a few miles on it to drive, before you give up on it.
I, too, have only owned rear-drive V8s; that's one of the things that sold me on the LS. I live in central Texas, though, so I can't speak to the snow question. Many of the posters here do live in climates where snow and ice are common, and the general concensus seems to be that the LS does very well in winter conditions.
I personally think that AdvanceTrac is worth every penny. A bonus on the '02 LS is that AdvanceTrac and heated seats are included in a package that costs the same as AdvanceTrac did by itself last year. In effect, you get the heated seats for free, where they were $400 in '01.
The slow-shifting issue was addressed by a new release of transmission software well over a year ago. It was included for the '01 model year and can be retrofitted to the '00 model by the dealer. My '01 V8 Sport has never shown any evidence of any shifting anomalies that some '00 owners encountered, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.
The TL type S is a very nice car; I just don't care for front drive. My impression is that the TL doesn't have as much interior room as the LS, and it's lacking a couple of features that may or may not matter to you (electric tilt & telescope wheel with memory, fold-down rear seats). It does, however, have an available factory navigation system. It's also a bit lower-priced than a comparably-equipped LS, depending on what kind of deal you get.
I think the TL is a great-looking car, and is well-engineered and well-equipped for the money. It's a reasonable alternative, but I'll still take the LS in a heartbeat.
Answers: 1)Here in New England we had lot of snow last winter and my LS-V8 did just fine with the advance track. 2)The reflash helped with the delays from drive to reverse gear. 3)LS is better, because it is rear wheel drive (hence-much better handling)and also has more room/space.
Thanks for the replies so far. A few more questions:
1. When you fold down the rear seats, is everything behind the seats empty space? Or is there a panel with a big cut-out like the Infiniti I30?
2. Any word of xenon headlights in the LS' future?
3. Here's the kicker for me: quality. My current car is a Trans Am. Most quality reports I read at the time I got my car ranked it as rock bottom, but I didn't much care--the performance and the styling were all that really mattered to me. Several years later, I still love the performance and the styling, but I really need something that's more practical and reliable without sacrificing too much of what I bought the Trans Am for in the first place. From when I test drove an LS a year ago, I considered it tops in most every category, but the quality was unknown. Since then, a lot of quality reports, long-term test reports, and so forth haven't had a lot of encouraging news about the quality of the LS, at least for a $30,000+ car (not to mention the recent shutdown of the plant where it's produced). Has quality of the LS been an issue for you? Do you feel the quality is commensurate with the price/market segment of the car?
shadowjack7... Start stopping by local dealers. Wife and I have. Was quite impressed with Acura 3.2TL Type S, for the money, at the local Acura dealer. Fit and finish was impeccable. Gorgeous dark blue exterior. There was more than enough room inside, both front and back. Roomy trunk. Fantastic engine. Good automatic. And the loaded one I looked at was for about $32,000. I wouldn't want the nav system. Can't see paying that kind of money for it. That is a deal killer for me. But I'm still in the exploratory stage. Of course, there is the big difference in FWD vs RWD.
You might consider an AWD VW Passat 2.8L V-6 w/5-speed automatic. The AWD version looses lots of trunk space and it currently doesn't come with an in-dash CD player. But nice overall package. '02s add 4 yr/50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. Or consider the Jag X-type AWD, 2.5L or 3.0L V-6. Bigger trunk than LS. Snob appeal. Great looks.
There's no panel behind the rear seats; it's open. Some people who have the Audiophile stereo have said that the subwoofers can interfere with cargo going through the opening; I don't know if they've been reconfigured for '02.
There have been rumors of Xenon lamps in future years, but nothing concrete. (You should note that retrofitting such lamps can be difficult and expensive, if not impossible, on cars that don't have them as original equipment.)
My LS will be a year old on Saturday. I have just over 14,000 miles and have had no problems at all; my only service visits have been for oil and filter changes and tire rotations. My personal experience is that LS quality is up-to-par; not every owner here has had the same experience, and I'm still waiting for my windows to crash.
jnowski Re: Flags. My maternal grandparents were Swedish immigrants; I'm just flying the family colors (and being annoyingly different.)
As scottc8 said, the 6 takes at least 3k to loosen up. Prior to that it feels a little slow. Not a 4-banger, but not near as fast as it will be! The car rags test very green engines. That's why their initial times are low. As I said earlier, I am very satisfied with my choice. Will my next one be a V8? Hard to say. I won't be looking until '05 so I'll wait and see. BTW, I also have a '96 Sable with the Duratec and my LS is considerably quicker, even with the added weight.
Oh yea, the flags. You select a country in your profile and you get the appropriate flag. Cute, huh? <:~}
According to the '02 product data sheet, the Sport-package cars will still have the leather shift knob and the all-leather steering wheel. The wood pieces still appear only on non-Sport models. Looks like Wieck has the photo mislabeled.
jnowski Re: Flags again. Subversion isn't necessarily a bad thing. ;-)
In my family, we have a Z-28 Camaro, which is pretty much the same as your T/A, as well as the Lincoln LS. I would compare them in the following fashion. The Camaro is like a Hudson Bay ax, while the LS is more like a scalpel. They both do the job, but the Linc is more precise, with a lighter feel and much easier on the posterior. The Camaro is quicker, but it's not a night and day difference.(our LS is a V-8) I've got a set of good snow tires on the LS, so it's pretty decent in the snow. (the Camaro gets stored) My Camaro has been fairly reliable (it's a 1996) and so far, the LS has been too.
'00 V8 Sport, ten and a half months old, will turn over 25k miles today. Problems: zero. 24 mpg commuting, 27 mpg interstate cruising. 0-60 performance: Plenty. 60-100 performance: Woo-hoo! One tiny run in the paint on a rear door edge. That's my quality issue. This car is a jewel.
Actually I didn't sign a NDA, I gave them something stronger, my word.
Answers:
1. No 2. No, well actually, highly doubt it. 3. No. This one got a chuckle going. After all, it still is a Lincoln
Though I think I would caution you against just looking at raw numbers. The way a car feels is just as important as figures. While numbers are good for bragging rights and getting onto freeway onramps, and a few stoplight drag races, it is ultimately the way a car feels to you that will decide whether you buy it or another. Horsepower numbers also don't tell how a car really accelerates. Gearing plays a big part in that.
I knew within the first five minutes of my test driving my LS that this was a car that felt very good to me and my driving style. It may not be for you. If you are stretching to get into a LS-6 you may not be happy with it as opposed to a G35, which will probably have more features, be lighter, and have a six-speed.
Someone asked about the TL. Personally, the difference in driving dymanics between a RWD platform and a FWD platform is so huge, I personally could never see myself comparing vehicles (for purchase) with FWD vs RWD. Its sooo apples vs. oranges. The Acura TL is nice. The Max is nice. The Passat is nice. (But do we REALLY need AWD in the DC area? Is it really necessary for areas that get about 1 inch of snow per year? Personally, I dont need the added hassles of AWD...thats just me) But I personally would never consider any of those FWD vehicles. Car magazine numbers dont tell you the "feel" of a car. Sure the TL-S is quicker to 60 mph than either of the LS's. Personally, I could care less. Ive had my LS V6 Auto/Sport for almost 2 years, and 39,000 miles. Still running on the original Firestones. This engine is absolutely perfect for me. Plenty of torque whenever I need it. Allowed me to cruise at a fairly quiet and constant 90-100mph on a recent highway night trip down south on I-85. When Im in the city, short bursts from 10 or 20mph to 40mph are somewhat common, and this engine/transmission combo does it with ease. If I had to do it over, would I get the V8? Nope. Not for me. Im seriously thinking about trading in my car in 2003 or 2004. What will I be leaning towards? A LSV8? Nope. I like 6's, and if the LSV6 has at least 240hp by then, and if it *feels* good, then thats what I will get. I have to go by feel, not by numbers. As far as reliability, Crashless windows to date. Got a few minor issues that do need addressing. The Automatic volume on the stereo isnt working anymore, and doesnt accept any input when I attempt to adjust it. The light bulb behind the red arrow on the climate control temp reduce switch is out. Both of my rear doors sound like they need a shot of proper lube on the hinges. Ive had the tranny reflashes done. The rubber weatherstripping on my trunk tore due to a bad install, but that was replaced pretty easily. And there was that bad coolant hose that left me almost stranded, but turning the heat on high and stopping every 5 miles to refill the coolant reservoir with water got me to the dealer. Thats it for my reliability issues. And I cant say it enough, I use the handling capabilites on this car everday. It amazes me how neutral the handling is. It "forces" me to take those left hand intersection turns faster than I should, just to get it in a ever so slight oversteer situation. Its great to hear the tires squeal, people turn and look, and see a LINCOLN in a controlled, non-leaning drift. Yahoo! (I know...what a reckless show-off I am.) Love the way this thing handles..
I've owned my 01 V8 Sport for 11 months and 13k miles and have had zero problems.
Another LSE opinion... Ground effects and fog lights and wing: Not bad but not worth additional cost to me. Painted Wheels: Would probably do a good job of hiding the brake dust but don't do anything for me. Exhaust tips: Great. Gotta have them. Would I buy the package: No. Not worth the money to me.
The Wieck photo is a non-sport despite the heading. If you notice, the shift pattern is standard.
ls1bmw0... Thanks for the info. I, too, am a man of my word. Gave my promise. I'm out of here. Focus my energies on G35, Marauder, and other '03 players. I may quietly watch you "fanatics" sitting around that Mel Brook's Blazing Saddle campfire to see what is discussed about changes but doubt I'll make a sound. Just doesn't appear the changes to '03 V-6 will dramatically alter its performance or competitive position in an ever more crowded and competitive market.
What is the saying, if you stand still in the middle of the road, you'll get run over? Too bad Lincoln. Heck, look at all the changes Lexus has made to IS300 by start of its second year? Sport wagon, manual, etc. And someone mentioned lowly Hyundai. They upgraded XG300 to XG350 after only one year. Cadillac has made a mistake with the '03 CTS engine, but they appear to be promising a "super CTS" within 12-18 months after early '03 introduction. Waiting 4 and 5 years for major changes is too long. See ya around!
Although I have the Manual, I can concur with Ronniepooh and Airconhall. My Duratech took a full 9,000 miles for break-in. The difference between green and 9,000 miles is like night and day. Although I haven't had time for the air box mod, the Borla males a difference you can really feel. You don't get as much rpm drop between shifts. I have yet to break 20 mpg in my car, and my last fill up was 16.07 mpg. Of course, you know I'm getting a lot of smiles per gallon. In real estate, it's mostly city driving and in San Diego and Calif, it's 91 octane max, oxygenated, and $1.829 for Texaco's best. Handling has always been my forte, and as Brian said, gearing is more important than stark 0-60 time. I'm rarely doing straight-line bonsai runs in this crowded urban environment, and top speed will never be discovered in my driving. I have fun blasting around in the torque range from about 3000 to 5000 rpm and taking 25 mph offramps at 55 or higher. This car does wonderful four wheel drifts, and I can always boot the tail out first with my right foot. I'd like to see an Acura S follow me thru some of these corners without terminal understeer. With FWD, you can't use your right foot to help you thru the corner. It will only help you lose traction as a tire can't steer and spin at the same time. As far as reliability, I have had only the window mechanisms replaced last November, and the daily workout with 10 and 12 year old boys and the window hogging dog are quite a test for the "revised" mechanisms. My everyday driving is a torture test for the rest of the car. The G35 looks good on paper, but it's like ten months away and Nissan could change a few important things (the IS300 was supposed to get a six-speed as well).
stanny1... I'll have to check the G35 board here but I'd swear one of your recent posts on the G35 board (#59) said something like "I'd trade in my LS for a G35 in a heartbeat." Apologies if my quote is off. Didn't I "warn" you that your LS "fanatics" might no longer trust you if they saw that? Hope I'm wrong. And sorry for exposing you if I'm wrong.
I considered a 3.2TL, I bought the LS instead because (in order of importance):
1. Could not find a comfortable driving position in the TL, not enough headroom, seats were not as comfortable as the LS. 2. While I thought it was the best of the FWD sedans I test drove, it just was no match for the feel of the LS sort of like eating at Denny's vs. Wolfgang Puck's latest bistro. I test drove 10 different brands and found I kept comparing all the others to the LS. Kind of told me "hey stupid quit wasting time and just get the LS." 3. The LS has true fold down rear seats vs. the limited use pass through cubby hole in the TL. 4. The Acura dealers here are impossible to deal with, they act like they are selling England's Crown Jewels. Not only do they want list price but all the cars are jacked up with dealer installed options such as wood shifter knob for $160, Trunk cargo mat for $200, Paint sealant $300 and on and on. One dealer even had the audacity to have on his add on sticker the standard alloy wheels as a $500 option! 6. The LS has a wonderful V8 7. I had $3K of Ford rebate $$ 8. Where I live everyone seems to have an Acura. Seems the only more common car in my town is a BMW.
S-Type: Didn't consider, too much $$, although some of the recent lease specials make it not much more expensive than a LS. If you look back you'll find my detailed comparison on a test drive of my friend's 3.0 S-type VS my LS-8. In a nutshell the Jag is more refined but that refinement leaves it without the character and adrenalin rush the LS has blasting through corners way faster they anyone in their right mind should.
I've been avoiding this site for a while and just read up on the recent posts. riez, while you claim to be looking for help evaluating a purchase, you seem to have a belligerent and confrontational attitude towards us LS crazies. Not the best way to make new friends and get the help you claim to want. Your sign off message sounds more than a bit insulting. As the host of "Weakest" says "Good-Bye".
Pat (Host) you're taking things too seriously, don't delete this message, or I'll call my lawyer.
I was just curious. My LS is an early build 00 (6/99) and I use all my windows almost every day out here in no-rain land and, so far, I haven't had any issues with the rear ones not paying attention to what I wanted them to do.
Is it possible that along with heat aging, that limited usage of the rear windows causes the failure earlier? I'd be interested in hearing from the people who have had failures if they use their rear windows a lot, and also from those who haven't had problems, the same question. You would assume that if the plastic part is getting sawed through that more usage would make it fail sooner rather than later, unless what is causing it is a combination of high heat and the same stationary position of the cable weakening the plastic in one location.
slunar... What did I say insulting in my farewell? I apologize if I've insulted you or anyone. Point me to the words and I'll be happy to modify or delete them. Don't you have a sense of humor? Have you ever seen Blazing Saddles? Lately? If not, do. Great movie. Great campfire scene! I have it on VHS and watch it once a year or so. (The buxom actress Robyn Hilton, who plays the governor's secretary, was a national treasure in the 1970s.)
LS "fanatics" & "crazies" (again your words, see previous posts above)... Please, just don't mention my name or imply anything and this "troll" will disappear from your Magic Kingdom.
Up until recently, I used my global open feature constantly, particularly in hot weather. So, I can say that in 2 years (almost) and 39,000 miles, I used my rear windows regularly. Build date is 10/99 on my vehicle, so far, no crashes. With the national backorder issue, Ive gotten nervous and stopped using them.
My LS8 sport (build date 10/99) has now almost completed it's second Phoenix summer. I use the global open feature almost daily (I say almost . . . I too am unsettled by the number of recent reported failures and national backorder). I have had absolutely no problems. Our temperatures over the last 10 days have exceeded 110 degrees (with 116 and 114 on two of those days!). I keep telling myself 'but it's a dry heat'. Thank goodness Fall is almost here (season, not windows)!
If my lease was up, and LM did nothing to the LS, and the G35 was as projected and priced to kill....if,if,if....but in two years alot can happen. In the mean time, I will enjoy what is the best performance value even now... There are just two many variables. I wouldn't wait too long to buy something. Cars are like computers and video/audio equiptment - they are only state of the art at the moment. Of course, I would feel better buying a car than an HDTV for obsolescence sake. I'll let others be the R&D guinea pigs. I think the DEW98 will be around for a while and I have two years more to play with my LS. Those clear tailight lenses will be out shortly... and the LSD...and the 3:58 rear. When the new Mustang using the DEW98 comes out, the aftermarket will respond.
My LS Sport also has a build date of 10/99, 28K miles, and I use the global open all the time during the summer. Never had any problems, and I don't intend to stop rolling them down. Maybe I'm playing with fire, but I bought this car for a reason, and I plan on using the conveniences I paid for. Wish me luck!
Other than in the dead of winter (32 deg. or lower) or when the sun is baking (95 deg. or higher), there is a rare day that I do not have at a minimum my LR and LF windows down if not all 4 and the sunroof.
(Had the whole thing opened up doing 132 one day BTW. A little noisy but stable as a rock and still pulling when I ran out of room.)
I'll take fresh air over AC any day as well as wear a coat while driving to keep warm with the windows down.
So far had the RR, which doesn't open as often as the LR, crash twice. Had the parts replaced in the LR as part of the TSB to replace BOTH, although I had to make a second trip because they did not have the LR one in stock.
Although Colorado is not typically thought of as a "hot" spot, we generally run 5-10 days a year very near or above 100 and probably another 20-30 above 90. The day that the window crashed the second time, the temp. was recorded at 101 or 102. I do not think it was that warm the day it crashed the first time because it happened last summer.
Brian, my gut tells me that the heat problem is related to areas that get up to that 100 deg. point regularly and maybe where you live it stays a little cooler than that. Of course Scott mentioned that his has never crashed so maybe I'm all wet.
I forgot that I've updated the picture of the LSE with the official one from the Ford media site. It looks a lot better in black than the unofficial silver pictures that I had put up before. I loaded the high-res picture and it's a pretty big size so if you want to study it in detail it's a good picture to look at.
jnowski ran some simulations for me doing a gear ratio change from 3.31 to 3.58 to 3.75(just for grins on this one). As soon as I am done publishing the entire TSB collection for the LS (sometime this weekend, LLSOC members will be able to view, in their entirety, the same TSBs the dealers see), I'll post the graph that he put together.
P.S. On the window TSB it clearly states that BOTH regulators should be changed at the same time to minimize customer inconvenience. There are over 150 pages of TSBs so it's taking me some time to put them on the site. At some point the LLSOC hosting provider is going to wonder why their server is groaning
You've got to cut and paste the URL since the board won't allow posting of anything greater than 115 characters. I split it after the .cfm?
Couple of points.
Looks like there is real wood inside now. They talk about burled walnut veneer and there are now three driver position settings according to the press kit. Oh, almost forgot, the V-6 now has 220 hp. V-8 rating remains the same.
"Gave my promise. I'm out of here" Somehow I don't believe it. Asking for information and advise is one thing. Repeatedly insulting us and challenging our choice is quite another matter.
After 20,000 miles in a 2000 V8 and almost 10,000 miles in a 2001 V6 Sport the only problem has been a noise in the rear differential that the dealer went all out to fix. Rear windows have been up and down 100s of times in hot South Florida and so far so good. Two fine cars with superb handling and top notch comfort.
interesting.... I've had my RR regulator replaced twice and neither time did anyone offer to replace them both. But of course not knowing it at the time I didn't request it either.
Brian you are suggesting the TSB says to replace both for customer convience.. that explains why my dealer didn't do it. They don't have a clue what that means..
as for the question you asked...Build date 05/99 living in MD it is not especially hot here.. in addition my first failure was in the late fall (got the revised regulator)...my second was in August however when it does get hot... low 90's mostly.. As a single (looking) guy I seldom if ever open any windows except maybe the drivers window when waiting for the AC to get cold.
By the way Brian... just curious... what if anything does your contacts at LM say about the problem and what they are doing to correct it?
They say it's caused by heat aging primarily, which didn't show up in any of their pre-prodcution testing. Seems that the more use the window gets the less chance it has for the problem to appear or more probable, it just delays the inevitable. I suspect that if they are seeing failures of the new part that a new re-design is already taking place. This is considered one of their top 10 priority parts issues and they are working pretty hard to resolve it.
Don't have any knowledge what they are planning on doing later on with regard to the cars that are out there currently and don't have the problem.
An addendum to my original question: Are the affected LSes all 2000 or are there any 2001s included?
As if you LLSOC members needed any more reason to gloat, I've loaded all the TSBs from 1999 to current for the LS into the members area of LLSOC. When you get in look at the navigation bar on the left and click on the Technical Service Bulletin (TSBs) link.
Right now I don't have the full description of the TSB on the page nor do I have the navigation fully set up. So what you will see is the TSB number and only the first page of each TSB. Sometime over this weekend the whole thing will be functional.
so they know its a problem... they are working hard to fix it.... yet they refuse to post any info about it...I feel better now...maybe Brian your windows should fail... then maybe you could could tell us whats really going on... without the inside scoop... burn that NDA...
If you want to see what's up with your windows, open the door panel and look. Give us your amateur engineering analysis. I did and then I talked to Cupka. I don't think the dealers give LM much feedback. Dick's not in that position anymore but we can e-mail someone. Don't take it out on the hired help! It's not like crankshafts are breaking.
I sincerely thank you for going out of your way to organize the LLSOC and appreciably improving my overall Lincoln ownership experience! The TSB listing alone is worth it's weight in gold. This Edmunds board is fantastic, and it and of itself is a fantastic place for owners to share in their LS experiences to date, and provide both owners and potential owners alike the information to make truly informed decisions on non-trivial matters.
I'm not posting this to offset a comment made by anyone on this board; I'm doing this because I feel it needs to be said. This Edmunds board, in conjunction with the LLSOC site, have made an enormous impact on my current ownership experience, that I will ALWAYS seek out these avenues for any future automotive purchasing decision. The regular folks that post on this board are included in my thanks. Without your regular input, I would not be aware of all the attributes the LS has to offer, and all the things to "watch out for". I am much better prepared to discuss issues with my service advisor, and as a result, diminishes the pitfalls associated with maintaining a complex mechanical device.
Not to mention the fact that this, and the LLSOC site are just a plain old fun places to discuss, and learn about one of my favorite pastimes. If it were not for Brian, I would not have had the opportunity to experience the LS Mania 1 event in Irvine, let alone the LS Mania 2 event soon to be held in Wixom/Dearborn, Michigan. You have to admit, if Edmunds or Brian hadn't put themselves out, none of this would be possible.
For those you looking for info on the window problems.... It looks like I might hold the world record for the number of window failures. Here are the facts. The count, as of today, stands at LR - 1 and RR - 3, every one since June 2001. My LS is V8, non-sport with a build date of 2/00. I live in Austin, TX where temps reach high 90's, and many 100+ degree days during the summer. My car has been through 2 summers of Central Texas heat and it took 15 months before any window related problems first appeared. The failures have not been window crashes where the glass falls into the door but more like when I roll the window down the window drops about an inch before getting into a bind and not going any futher. The latest failure occured last weekend on a road trip to Northeast TX. On this window, the new level part had been installed for maybe 2 weeks before failing again. This leads me to believe that maybe heat is not the problem. Anyway I was on the way to the dealer Wed. to drop the car off when I tried the window..well it rolled down..about half way down you could see the glass getting into a bind but it would roll up and down. I turned around, went back to the office and called the service manager. I mentioned to him that the window did not work a few days ago (it failed Sat, and it verified it on Sun and Mon) but is working now. He suggested that maybe I have a weak motor. Here is the kicker..this week we have had very heavy rains all week..the first heavy rains all summer. The window started working AFTER it sat out in the rain. Go figure. I am now waiting for the rain to stop and everything to dry out and see what happens. I believe that once this happens I will still have a window problem. Unless this is a fail-safe feature that will allow the window to work ONLY if it is raining.
I must also mention that when I was in Northeast TX I saw another LS. There was a very light rain and I noticed the RR window on that car was rolled down. Don't know..maybe just a coincidence or maybe it had a sick window.
Andyl2 - Subject to correction...but I believe there is an efficiency gain in that the hydraulic fan is capable of operating at an RPM which continuously varies to match cooling requirements...unlike an electric fan which would be either off, or full (power-robbing) RPM. Whatever the setup is in the LS, it WORKS. The temp needle in my LS goes quickly to horizontal after warmup and stays right there no matter what the load or ambient temperature. BTW - It's the fastest engine to reach operating temperature I have ever driven of ANY engine size (even four bangers, even motorcycles) and even in the wintertime. I expected otherwise from an engine containing 6 litres of oil. As you're likely aware, the warmup time is the period of operation when an engine emits the most pollutants. A short warmup period is no doubt one characteristic of this engine which allows it to be classified by the EPA as a "low emission" vehicle. - Regards - Brian.
This is interesting. Usually, if the window mechanism goes down, and the window glass stays up, the plastic plug that holds the glass to the trolley has fallen out. That is a known problem. Are you saying that the window just sticks in one place and the motor can't move it up or down? This could be some kind of jam up where the wire/cable is stuck. Or is the motor moving and the glass is stationary?
Comments
1. Coming from a family that's owned nothing but RWD V-8 cars since I was a kid, the LS has some natural appeal. But now that I live in a big city up north, I wonder if a FWD car is a better tradeoff. How does your LS deal with rain and snow? Does AdvanceTrac make a difference?
2. Some people have mentioned that the automatic transmission is sometimes slow to shift. Has Lincoln solved this problem?
3. Why would you say the LS is better than an Acura TL Type S?
Thanks!
It was scary, to say the least. I felt like Mo Gugelmin at Road America a couple weeks ago. I glanced at my speedo, and I was going 49 miles an hour. Not very fast, but obviously too fast for that particular condition.
It's been raining like crazy here this week & I've been driving lots of miles in it by necessity rather than choice. The Firestones, in general, seem to perform quite admirably in the wet--for the price, I can't complain. In this case, though, they were overwhelmed.
Take a hint from me and be careful out there. Bad stuff can happen in a BIG hurry.
Jlinc, lesson learned
nosho... Where is this info on the 250 hp 3.3L V-6 located here? What post number(s)? One out of 3 not too promising. All the more reason to wait for the G35. What are the respective power to weight ratios for 530i and LS V-6 manuals? Published acceleration times?
Glad to see all opinions are welcome. That should include those of us who are NOT LS fanatics, are interested in lots of other cars, aren't afraid to express an opinion or point out the emperor might be naked.
riez, excuse me if I've mistaken you for an "armchair" car critic. I was also a little underwhelmed by the LS6 I test drove, but most people have found the engine loosens up a lot after some break-in miles. Maybe you can find one with a few miles on it to drive, before you give up on it.
I personally think that AdvanceTrac is worth every penny. A bonus on the '02 LS is that AdvanceTrac and heated seats are included in a package that costs the same as AdvanceTrac did by itself last year. In effect, you get the heated seats for free, where they were $400 in '01.
The slow-shifting issue was addressed by a new release of transmission software well over a year ago. It was included for the '01 model year and can be retrofitted to the '00 model by the dealer. My '01 V8 Sport has never shown any evidence of any shifting anomalies that some '00 owners encountered, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.
The TL type S is a very nice car; I just don't care for front drive. My impression is that the TL doesn't have as much interior room as the LS, and it's lacking a couple of features that may or may not matter to you (electric tilt & telescope wheel with memory, fold-down rear seats). It does, however, have an available factory navigation system. It's also a bit lower-priced than a comparably-equipped LS, depending on what kind of deal you get.
I think the TL is a great-looking car, and is well-engineered and well-equipped for the money. It's a reasonable alternative, but I'll still take the LS in a heartbeat.
1)Here in New England we had lot of snow last winter and my LS-V8 did just fine with the advance track.
2)The reflash helped with the delays from drive to reverse gear.
3)LS is better, because it is rear wheel drive (hence-much better handling)and also has more room/space.
1. When you fold down the rear seats, is everything behind the seats empty space? Or is there a panel with a big cut-out like the Infiniti I30?
2. Any word of xenon headlights in the LS' future?
3. Here's the kicker for me: quality. My current car is a Trans Am. Most quality reports I read at the time I got my car ranked it as rock bottom, but I didn't much care--the performance and the styling were all that really mattered to me. Several years later, I still love the performance and the styling, but I really need something that's more practical and reliable without sacrificing too much of what I bought the Trans Am for in the first place. From when I test drove an LS a year ago, I considered it tops in most every category, but the quality was unknown. Since then, a lot of quality reports, long-term test reports, and so forth haven't had a lot of encouraging news about the quality of the LS, at least for a $30,000+ car (not to mention the recent shutdown of the plant where it's produced). Has quality of the LS been an issue for you? Do you feel the quality is commensurate with the price/market segment of the car?
You might consider an AWD VW Passat 2.8L V-6 w/5-speed automatic. The AWD version looses lots of trunk space and it currently doesn't come with an in-dash CD player. But nice overall package. '02s add 4 yr/50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. Or consider the Jag X-type AWD, 2.5L or 3.0L V-6. Bigger trunk than LS. Snob appeal. Great looks.
spoiler - thumbs down!
the rest - tastefully done.
Would I pay extra for it? Nope.
There have been rumors of Xenon lamps in future years, but nothing concrete. (You should note that retrofitting such lamps can be difficult and expensive, if not impossible, on cars that don't have them as original equipment.)
My LS will be a year old on Saturday. I have just over 14,000 miles and have had no problems at all; my only service visits have been for oil and filter changes and tire rotations. My personal experience is that LS quality is up-to-par; not every owner here has had the same experience, and I'm still waiting for my windows to crash.
jnowski Re: Flags. My maternal grandparents were Swedish immigrants; I'm just flying the family colors (and being annoyingly different.)
Oh yea, the flags. You select a country in your profile and you get the appropriate flag. Cute, huh? <:~}
http://americanluxury.com/
http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_026804
jnowski Re: Flags again. Subversion isn't necessarily a bad thing. ;-)
The Camaro is like a Hudson Bay ax, while the LS is more like a scalpel. They both do the job, but the Linc is more precise, with a lighter feel and much easier on the posterior. The Camaro is quicker, but it's not a night and day difference.(our LS is a V-8) I've got a set of good snow tires on the LS, so it's pretty decent in the snow. (the Camaro gets stored)
My Camaro has been fairly reliable (it's a 1996) and so far, the LS has been too.
Answers:
1. No
2. No, well actually, highly doubt it.
3. No. This one got a chuckle going. After all, it still is a Lincoln
Though I think I would caution you against just looking at raw numbers. The way a car feels is just as important as figures. While numbers are good for bragging rights and getting onto freeway onramps, and a few stoplight drag races, it is ultimately the way a car feels to you that will decide whether you buy it or another. Horsepower numbers also don't tell how a car really accelerates. Gearing plays a big part in that.
I knew within the first five minutes of my test driving my LS that this was a car that felt very good to me and my driving style. It may not be for you. If you are stretching to get into a LS-6 you may not be happy with it as opposed to a G35, which will probably have more features, be lighter, and have a six-speed.
Love the way this thing handles..
Another LSE opinion...
Ground effects and fog lights and wing: Not bad but not worth additional cost to me.
Painted Wheels: Would probably do a good job of hiding the brake dust but don't do anything for me.
Exhaust tips: Great. Gotta have them.
Would I buy the package: No. Not worth the money to me.
The Wieck photo is a non-sport despite the heading. If you notice, the shift pattern is standard.
Joe
What is the saying, if you stand still in the middle of the road, you'll get run over? Too bad Lincoln. Heck, look at all the changes Lexus has made to IS300 by start of its second year? Sport wagon, manual, etc. And someone mentioned lowly Hyundai. They upgraded XG300 to XG350 after only one year. Cadillac has made a mistake with the '03 CTS engine, but they appear to be promising a "super CTS" within 12-18 months after early '03 introduction. Waiting 4 and 5 years for major changes is too long. See ya around!
As far as reliability, I have had only the window mechanisms replaced last November, and the daily workout with 10 and 12 year old boys and the window hogging dog are quite a test for the "revised" mechanisms. My everyday driving is a torture test for the rest of the car.
The G35 looks good on paper, but it's like ten months away and Nissan could change a few important things (the IS300 was supposed to get a six-speed as well).
stanny1... I'll have to check the G35 board here but I'd swear one of your recent posts on the G35 board (#59) said something like "I'd trade in my LS for a G35 in a heartbeat." Apologies if my quote is off. Didn't I "warn" you that your LS "fanatics" might no longer trust you if they saw that? Hope I'm wrong. And sorry for exposing you if I'm wrong.
1. Could not find a comfortable driving position in the TL, not enough headroom, seats were not as comfortable as the LS.
2. While I thought it was the best of the FWD sedans I test drove, it just was no match for the feel of the LS sort of like eating at Denny's vs. Wolfgang Puck's latest bistro. I test drove 10 different brands and found I kept comparing all the others to the LS. Kind of told me "hey stupid quit wasting time and just get the LS."
3. The LS has true fold down rear seats vs. the limited use pass through cubby hole in the TL.
4. The Acura dealers here are impossible to deal with, they act like they are selling England's Crown Jewels. Not only do they want list price but all the cars are jacked up with dealer installed options such as wood shifter knob for $160, Trunk cargo mat for $200, Paint sealant $300 and on and on. One dealer even had the audacity to have on his add on sticker the standard alloy wheels as a $500 option!
6. The LS has a wonderful V8
7. I had $3K of Ford rebate $$
8. Where I live everyone seems to have an Acura. Seems the only more common car in my town is a BMW.
S-Type: Didn't consider, too much $$, although some of the recent lease specials make it not much more expensive than a LS. If you look back you'll find my detailed comparison on a test drive of my friend's 3.0 S-type VS my LS-8. In a nutshell the Jag is more refined but that refinement leaves it without the character and adrenalin rush the LS has blasting through corners way faster they anyone in their right mind should.
I've been avoiding this site for a while and just read up on the recent posts. riez, while you claim to be looking for help evaluating a purchase, you seem to have a belligerent and confrontational attitude towards us LS crazies. Not the best way to make new friends and get the help you claim to want. Your sign off message sounds more than a bit insulting. As the host of "Weakest" says "Good-Bye".
Pat (Host) you're taking things too seriously, don't delete this message, or I'll call my lawyer.
Is it possible that along with heat aging, that limited usage of the rear windows causes the failure earlier? I'd be interested in hearing from the people who have had failures if they use their rear windows a lot, and also from those who haven't had problems, the same question. You would assume that if the plastic part is getting sawed through that more usage would make it fail sooner rather than later, unless what is causing it is a combination of high heat and the same stationary position of the cable weakening the plastic in one location.
Thanks,
Brian
LS "fanatics" & "crazies" (again your words, see previous posts above)... Please, just don't mention my name or imply anything and this "troll" will disappear from your Magic Kingdom.
(Had the whole thing opened up doing 132 one day BTW. A little noisy but stable as a rock and still pulling when I ran out of room.)
I'll take fresh air over AC any day as well as wear a coat while driving to keep warm with the windows down.
So far had the RR, which doesn't open as often as the LR, crash twice. Had the parts replaced in the LR as part of the TSB to replace BOTH, although I had to make a second trip because they did not have the LR one in stock.
Although Colorado is not typically thought of as a "hot" spot, we generally run 5-10 days a year very near or above 100 and probably another 20-30 above 90. The day that the window crashed the second time, the temp. was recorded at 101 or 102. I do not think it was that warm the day it crashed the first time because it happened last summer.
Brian, my gut tells me that the heat problem is related to areas that get up to that 100 deg. point regularly and maybe where you live it stays a little cooler than that. Of course Scott mentioned that his has never crashed so maybe I'm all wet.
jnowski ran some simulations for me doing a gear ratio change from 3.31 to 3.58 to 3.75(just for grins on this one). As soon as I am done publishing the entire TSB collection for the LS (sometime this weekend, LLSOC members will be able to view, in their entirety, the same TSBs the dealers see), I'll post the graph that he put together.
P.S. On the window TSB it clearly states that BOTH regulators should be changed at the same time to minimize customer inconvenience. There are over 150 pages of TSBs so it's taking me some time to put them on the site. At some point the LLSOC hosting provider is going to wonder why their server is groaning
Brian
http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_display.cfm? vehicle_id=490&press_subsection_id=421&make_id=93
You've got to cut and paste the URL since the board won't allow posting of anything greater than 115 characters. I split it after the .cfm?
Couple of points.
Looks like there is real wood inside now. They talk about burled walnut veneer and there are now three driver position settings according to the press kit. Oh, almost forgot, the V-6 now has 220 hp. V-8 rating remains the same.
Brian
After 20,000 miles in a 2000 V8 and almost 10,000 miles in a 2001 V6 Sport the only problem has been a noise in the rear differential that the dealer went all out to fix. Rear windows have been up and down 100s of times in hot South Florida and so far so good. Two fine cars with superb handling and top notch comfort.
Brian you are suggesting the TSB says to replace both for customer convience..
that explains why my dealer didn't do it. They don't have a clue what that means..
as for the question you asked...Build date 05/99 living in MD it is not especially hot here.. in addition my first failure was in the late fall (got the revised regulator)...my second was in August however when it does get hot... low 90's mostly..
As a single (looking) guy I seldom if ever open any windows except maybe the drivers window
when waiting for the AC to get cold.
By the way Brian... just curious... what if anything does your contacts at LM say about the problem and what they are doing to correct it?
Thanks
Kevin
"It (the LS V8) uses a hydraulic cooling fan for quiet operation and less drain on the electrical system."
G-
Don't have any knowledge what they are planning on doing later on with regard to the cars that are out there currently and don't have the problem.
An addendum to my original question: Are the affected LSes all 2000 or are there any 2001s included?
Brian
Right now I don't have the full description of the TSB on the page nor do I have the navigation fully set up. So what you will see is the TSB number and only the first page of each TSB. Sometime over this weekend the whole thing will be functional.
Brian
Also, the 2002 V6 has increased torque
(+10 lb-ft) in addition to the +10HP change. The increase in torque will probably be more noticable than the HP increase.
http://media.ford.com/products/model.cfm?vehicle_id=490
I sincerely thank you for going out of your way to organize the LLSOC and appreciably improving my overall Lincoln ownership experience! The TSB listing alone is worth it's weight in gold. This Edmunds board is fantastic, and it and of itself is a fantastic place for owners to share in their LS experiences to date, and provide both owners and potential owners alike the information to make truly informed decisions on non-trivial matters.
I'm not posting this to offset a comment made by anyone on this board; I'm doing this because I feel it needs to be said. This Edmunds board, in conjunction with the LLSOC site, have made an enormous impact on my current ownership experience, that I will ALWAYS seek out these avenues for any future automotive purchasing decision. The regular folks that post on this board are included in my thanks. Without your regular input, I would not be aware of all the attributes the LS has to offer, and all the things to "watch out for". I am much better prepared to discuss issues with my service advisor, and as a result, diminishes the pitfalls associated with maintaining a complex mechanical device.
Not to mention the fact that this, and the LLSOC site are just a plain old fun places to discuss, and learn about one of my favorite pastimes. If it were not for Brian, I would not have had the opportunity to experience the LS Mania 1 event in Irvine, let alone the LS Mania 2 event soon to be held in Wixom/Dearborn, Michigan. You have to admit, if Edmunds or Brian hadn't put themselves out, none of this would be possible.
Thank you.
I must also mention that when I was in Northeast TX I saw another LS. There was a very light rain and I noticed the RR window on that car was rolled down. Don't know..maybe just a coincidence or maybe it had a sick window.
BTW - It's the fastest engine to reach operating temperature I have ever driven of ANY engine size (even four bangers, even motorcycles) and even in the wintertime. I expected otherwise from an engine containing 6 litres of oil. As you're likely aware, the warmup time is the period of operation when an engine emits the most pollutants. A short warmup period is no doubt one characteristic of this engine which allows it to be classified by the EPA as a "low emission" vehicle. - Regards - Brian.