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Lincoln LS

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    klarson1klarson1 Member Posts: 60
    Brian...sorry...didn't mean to go off like that... just frustrated...
    and I do think you do a great job... otherwise I wouldn't have become a charter member of your website..

    Kevin
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    ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    As they say in Jamaica, No Problem, Mon..... (club, you're a charter member of the club. The website comes along for the ride, remember?)

    I can understand your frustration. Trust me I'm as pessimistic about my windows as any of you are. I figure they'll fail at some point like everyone elses. The only downside of mine failing is that I'm out of warranty already so if they do fail I'm out the cash.

    sniemietz: I'm not sure that your window problem is being caused by the window regulator. I agree with stanny1 that something else may be causing it to bind up, which would cause undue stress on the regulator. Maybe you have a bent track. Has the dealer checked that out?

    lolaj42: Thanks!

    Brian (who is now blushing....)
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    klarson1klarson1 Member Posts: 60
    right... I knew that...
    Thanks
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    ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    The TSBs are now fully in place on the member area. Browse to your heart's content.
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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I am very interested in the how or why the air box is better on the 2002's. I know a word description is difficult, but any clues as to what was done to open it up would be interesting.
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    riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    apologies but fyi...

    While reading magazines in Public Library ran across 9/3/01 issue of Fortune. Has a lengthy profile on Gerry McGovern, Irishman who is Lincoln's chief designer. You might find it interesting. I paid attention for hints on Lincoln's future products. He looks like aging bass player from big hair metal band of 1980s. Mentions Ford not liking his Mark IX show car. His first design into production won't be till 2004. Before that Lincoln will introduce a luxury SUV for about $45,000 based on Explorer chassis. No mention of LS or short DEW platfrom. Average age of Town Car buyer is now 71. Estimate Lincoln generated about $7.5 billion in gross revenue last year with an 8.5 percent operating margin; margin is twice Ford's/Mercury's. Lincoln sales slid 14 percent so far this year even with 0.0 percent interest offer. BMW and Lexus sales up 21 and 17 percent respectively this year.
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    I bet the new M3 had something to do with that 21% sales increase. Still got a waiting list on that baby. I still think there is a latent market for an affordable performance car with 4 doors. BMW is picking it up at a near premium price. The LS could fill that niche with more value. Sometimes I think that there is some secret agreement to leave BMW alone and let them have the performance market. Everyone can sell luxury. Only a few can sell honest performance. LM could make an LS for both markets. Don't be afraid of the those Bavarian elves.
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    ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    Here is a tentative agenda that the club and Lincoln have started with for the tour. It is preliminary and is subject to change but is close to final. Since just about everyone has indicated that they would prefer a morning start we did away with the 2 Wixom plant tours and expanded the morning tour to 3 hours and added a expanded engineering tour in the afternoon.
    Thursday:

    5:00pm-10:00pm Event check-in and Happy hour mixer at the Dearborn Inn Golden Eagle Lounge.

    Friday:

    7:30am-10:30am Wixom Assembly plant tour
    10:30am-11:30am Discussion with plant managers
    11:30am-1:00pm Lunch at Henry Ford Museum Pool House with Lincoln folks
    1:00pm-4:00pm Engineering facilities tour along with a couple of surprises planned for you!
    5:00pm-7:00pm Happy hour mixer at Dearborn Inn
    7:00pm-?? Possible dinner with some of the engineers at a local eatery.

    Saturday and Sunday

    Open timing: Ford Centennial Racing Event at Greenfield Village (about 1/4 mile from the Dearborn Inn)

    This will be a very full day for all of us. Pay extra attention on the Wixom plant tour since there will be a contest at lunch for a very special prize

    The Lincoln folks are as excited as we are to have us and are very much looking forward to meeting all of us. This promises to be a very memorable event based on what we have discussed.

    There is still plenty of room available for people interested in the event, but you must be a member of LLSOC to be able to attend the event. For more details go to the club site at www.llsoc.com

    Brian
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    ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    Here is the link to the Fortune magazine article. Heh, heh, I do have to agree with riez on his description of ol Ger. Interestingly he seems to have managed to tick off quite a few people already. Maybe his career at Lincoln will be short-lived. Hopefully he keeps his hands off the LS. If you want to email him his email address is listed at Blue Oval News. I'm sure based on his charming personality you'll probably get a rather blistering response!


    http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml? channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=203722&_DARGS=%2Feditorial%2Fcurrent_issue.html.30_A&_DAV=Home


    Brian

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    mjvchicagomjvchicago Member Posts: 149
    Okay, just saw this on MotorTrend's Web site and almost had to get my asthma inhaler:

    "The LSE package includes a new fascia with round fog lamps, a low profile rear decklid spoiler, modified rear valence, dual exhaust with stainless steel tips, and special 17-inch five-spoke aluminum painted Blade Gray. Chrome 17-inch wheels also are available. The vanes on the LSE's signature Lincoln grille are painted Blade Gray. The rear license plate surround and the new rocker moldings are color-keyed to the body. Floor mats and special badging round out the package."

    Has anyone seen any more info on this, specifically photos? Must... see... new... LSE...
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    slunarslunar Member Posts: 479
    Being an EE (who has done a lot of work on the mechanical aspects of electronic equipment) I'm still scratching my head on the hydraulic fan, seems to me that hydraulic is more complex. costly, heaver and has a higher failure potential than electric over the life of the car. These days its pretty simple with a small amount of electronics to have an infinitely variable speed motor which should be essentially maintenance free over the life of the car. But then again it's been 20 years since I worked in the auto industry and I have limited knowledge of modern hydraulic rotary motors so maybe I'm missing something. Could be that power drain is the issue and when we get to 42 volt cars the fans will be electric again. Like I said before, there is never a perfect design solution to anything. A good engineer is the one who picks the best compromise.
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    Except when the A/C is on, I think the hydraulic approach was chosen for sound control. The use of a power-steering type pump and hydraulic motor allows the fluid flow control module to monitor the input sensors of the main computer and control the rpm of the fan blade more linearly to engine rpm and actual cooling needs.
    Because the water pump is the achilles heal of the air-cooled heat engine, the separation of water pump and fan functions relieves the water pump bearing from weight load and imbalance/harmonic problems which are endemic to conventional fan/pump interfaces. Water pump failures are almost always related to bearing and then seal failures. I think water pump bearing stress is highly under appreciated. True, we have more complexity and the possibility of hose, fluid pump, fluid motor and module failure as Wixom recently experienced. But the fact that the LS can be driven in cooling failure mode and driving over 35 mph should replace fan cooling to a large degree should be significant offsets to hydraulic failure modality.
    In addition, although I am not sure this is true on the LS, faster warm-up could be accelerated by
    applying reverse hydraulic pressure to the extent of "locking-up" the hydraulic motor and causing the fan blade to "stall" and block air flow.
    I think we will all enjoy increased water pump life compared with the conventional fan/pump belt driven system with failure-prone silicon-fluid- filled clutch fans or noisy, usually flow and size-limited electric fans.
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    reneleblancreneleblanc Member Posts: 144
    Stanny1's comment about water pump bearing stress associated with fan/pump interfaces is intersting. However, doesn't an electric motor driven fan also decouple this interface?

    I agree with slunar that a variable-speed electric motor would seem to achieve the same operational flexibility as the hydraulic motor, but I don't recall seeing any automobile with a variable speed electric fan motor. I often hear quite a lot of noise from electric fans whirring away under the hood of cars sitting at stop lights or even after being turned off in parking lots.

    The Lincoln LS fan is very unobtrusive, and I am almost never aware of noise from it. I can't comment on its complexity, cost, or reliability, except when I worked on jet fighter planes in the navy back in the mid-50's I saw applications of hydraulic motors, and they seemed to be totally reliable.
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    drolds1drolds1 Member Posts: 247
    Slunar- if I recall correctly what Dick Cupka said at LS Mania 1, then you are right on the money. I'm sure someone with a better recall than I will weigh in, but I beleive he said that it was done chiefly B/C of the enormous electrical demands put on the system in the LS. The 42 volt system is needed now.

    In my other car (Nissan Altima), you can feel the RPM's drop, as well as see it on the tach, when the fan(s) come on & the alternator has to catch up with the load. It even does this to a lesser extent when you turn on the headlights.

    René- I don't know about infinitely variable speed electrical fans per se, but some cars do have 2-speed fans.
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    chartrandchartrand Member Posts: 139
    A few weeks back while having a 20K oil change the service manager pointed out the Firehawks on my non sport LS8 were almost to the wear bars. I check pressure every week and rotate and balance every 5 K. I remember seeing a posting many moons ago on the same issue. What is expected wear rating for these standard tires? Anyone think Firestone will offer compensation on replacements or should I bite the bullet and buy something else?
    Brian, Re project GT. The more I stare at the induction system, The more I see a cowl induction ala NASCAR fitting the bill. If you pulled air in on the passenger side cowl it would be a lot shorter and more direct route to the manifold. The only restriciton I see for trial purposes would be extending the wiring for the MAP sensor. Might even be able to fit a cone filter in the cowl plenum. A dyno might not show optimal figures as the car is stationary. A WOT on a back road would prve it out. Compare max MPH before and after. If you don't feel comfortable at MAX speed, I'll pilot it for you.
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    That's another angle. This car is almost scary with it's reliance on electrons. Did I read somewhere where the control system for lights, etc, is multiplexed, i.e., signals thru a loop instead of a wire to every device?
    As far as load goes, turn on all 4 power windows after they are already against their stops after you idle away in drive after you cold start the car and watch the tachometer. That's a load.
    With a 42 volt system, power steering units like Magnesteer (GM) will be commonplace. I've heard the A/C compressor will still have to be engine-driven because of the hp required. Variable speed DC motors are rare. I think they take multiple windings, which is expensive. I think it's easier to convert to AC and change frequency or cycle. I think that's one reason for 42 volt. And since Volts X Amps = Watts, changing to a higher voltage will let the manufacturers change to a smaller guage wire (higher EMF). We saw that in the fifties with the change from six to 12 volts. That's one reason planes have higher voltage systems. Actually, it was a mistake for this country to go to the 120 volt standard. Too late to change now.
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    riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    apologies, fyi... really for stanny1 since he had comments on G35 board about the S80 T-6, but thought I'd comment here since this S80 more readily competes with LS V-8 or Jag S-type V-8. If you haven't driven one, do.

    Banker friend of mine at church had his beloved '88 Volvo 780 Bertone totalled recently. Replaced it with new S80 T-6 Executive. While looking at it after church today (had to check out the TV/DVD/refrigerator which takes up the middle seat in back) he threw me the keys and told me to take her for a good spin. Glad the good deacon trusts me! After about 30 minutes of spirited driving I was sad to have to return it. She rode and handled quite nicely. But talk about mid-range passing power! Slight turbo lag off line but once you hit about 3,000 RPMs that twin-turbo six will throw you back. Before you know it you're gone from 50 to 100 mph. Quality of interior materials impeccable. Too expensive for me; over $45,000 with most options on it.

    teenage kid who loves Cadillacs has a nice link today on the Cadillac CTS board (#1584) that gives July 2000/2001 and YTD 2000/2001 sales figures for 53 luxury cars. LS YTD down from 30,400 last year to 26,000 this year. Some AIC outfit.
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    Tell your friend to be religious about tranny fluid changes. I'd use Amsoil Synthetic Universal. That Buick Skylark auto in the S80 T-6 is really overtaxed. It's too bad it'd FWD. If you took a nice country corner and the turbo kicked in, you would be in the trees in a New York minute. All that torque would result in terminal understeer. A tire can't spin and steer at the same time. No controlled throttle induced four wheel drifts with that car. Like the STS, the S80 is a great engine looking for a good RWD chassis. Cadillac is bringing out RWD again, but I think Volvo is just in the middle of it's learning curve. A luxury car needs the luxury of RWD. See www.rearwheeldrive.org
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    streetracerstreetracer Member Posts: 134
    I know RWD is much better than FWD. However, A wheel can spin and steer at the same time, just not as good as doing one at a time. You can turn the wheels less, and use power to pull you through, you can delay terminal understeer. That is how you turn anyway, a turned wheel will spin in the direction steered but resist sliding along the cars existing trajectory, unless you go into understeer :)
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    We LS drivers are used to taking 25 mph off-ramps at at least 50 mph. Now the next time you try that in your FWD, apply enough power to break the tires loose at the apex of the turn. See if your front wheels "pull you through the turn". I do this daily with the LS and it accelerates my turn (actually making a controlled 4 wheel drift).
    I am sure all of here wish you were at LS Mania I in Irvine last January 6th. There was this one hairpin turn at the end of the straightaway (no, guys, not on the gymkhana run) I would love to see a FWD execute. On second thought, don't do the off-ramp at 50 mph. I don't want it on my conscience.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you would have bothered to read a few posts before posting your question you would have seen the discussion on the LSE a few days ago. Scroll back.
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    reneleblancreneleblanc Member Posts: 144
    A week ago we took some visitors (from Toronto) on a little Arizona tour up through Wickenburg and then up Rt 89 up Yarnell pass and up to Prescott along some very fun mountain curvacious roads. Our friend, Patrick, made a little comment that I seemed to be taking all the curves at least 20 MPH faster than the posted speed; i.e. 40 MPH around a 20 MPH curve, etc.

    Actually, I thought I was being very gentle and conservative in deference to his wife's somewhat unstable stomach. I explained the posted limits seemed to be established for inferior vehicles like covered wagons and SUVs, and for the LS I was actually driving far below the car's actual limits at a very comfortable rate that was designed to get us to our destination and back home again during the same day. But Toronto doesn't have many (read that 'any') mountain roads, and I suppose they had a slightly different calibration about driving around curves with long dropoffs at the edge.

    The LS really is (almost) as much fun in the mountains as my BMW motorcycle. In the rain, it is way MORE fun!
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    price8price8 Member Posts: 3
    I've recently been finding the Lincoln LS to be quite an attractive car. I've always loved luxury cars with those majestic-like front grills, but I've been hearing some bad comments about the LS and it's poor sound system quality and the inability of the dealership to find and fix problems in a timely fashion. I haven't been to fond of American cars for some time now, but the LS is looking very good. To sum it up....is this car worth buying? And why would someone want to buy this car and not something else like a Maxima or BMW? I've previously owned a 1985 Maxima(which I loved to death) and I presently own a Cutlas Supreme Internation(3.4 V6 a real power car). I've also been hearing that the LS is not to good on gas. Is this also true??
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    wrx_alwrx_al Member Posts: 17
    was the question at trade-in time. I found out that my '96 Ford Taurus was only worth $4200 with 69K miles on it. DO NOT BUY A FORD UNLESS YOU PLAN TO KEEP IT UNTIL THE WHEELS DROP OFF!
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    jackjtjackjt Member Posts: 178
    Sold my 93 with 54K a year ago for 5K and traded a 95 wagon (45K) 6 months ago and got $5900. They had been reliable, cheap transportation. Don't own a Ford now, but sure don't rule them out!
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    mrankellmrankell Member Posts: 21
    I am picking up my 2001 LSV8 with advance-trak next week.

    Does anybody have experience with this car in the snow. I live in Western Mass. where snow can really build up in the winter. Are snow tires really helpful on this car?

    m.rankell
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    cwesleycwesley Member Posts: 55
    To begin with: cars cost a great deal of money, while my advice is cheap. ultimately, you need to buy what makes you feel good. Having said that, I drive a 02/01 build LS with convenience package (highly recommend) and 5 speed manual.

    It has been a great car. My lease expires in the spring and I plan to order a 2003.

    I have the standard sound system which was OK. I upgraded the speakers myself and find it as good as most I have heard. I'm not into subwoofer envy so go by what my ears tell me, not what the other guy has lurking under his dash. I'm sure the Alpine option sounds even better.

    Why not a Maxima? Front wheel drive - pure and simple. My LS is the first rear wheel drive car I have had in 12 years. I've never had a fwd car handle this well. BMW? The 3 series is way too small. The 5 series is a beautiful car but comes at a real $ premium.

    As mentioned, the duratec six takes forever to loosen up. With 17,000 miles on mine, I averaged 25 mph on a recent 2,400 mile trip. I could do better around town if I kept my foot off the accelerator. (Like I said, this car is fun.)

    I have had one problem with my LS (fogging headlight) which was replaced immediately. My impression is that the early build quality problems have been addressed. Pick your dealer carefully. That will determine quality of service more than anything.

    Good luck! Let us know what you end up buying.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Maxima (or Acura 3.2TL) - nice cars but FWD. LS and BMW are RWD. There is a big difference in spirited driving. LS is bigger and much less expensive than a comparable BMW.

    V6 auto is not a screamer but isn't a dog either. V6 manual and V8 auto are quick. Off the line acceleration isn't great but passing power is superb. More power is on the way for 2003 via larger displacment (3.3 and 4.3 - or 4.2) engines.

    There were a few problems with the first year models but they were almost all fixed before the 2001 model year. The only problem to be concerned about right now are the rear window regulators that are failing frequently, but it's not clear whether this is a problem on new models or not. It seems to be heat related.

    The non-audiophile stereo isn't great but a speaker upgrade seems to help a lot. The true audiophile system with subwoofers is great. This wasn't available on Sport models previously but I think it's back for 2002.

    Dealers are hit or miss. Some are good, some are bad. Some offer LS loaners, some don't.

    Even with a few problems, most owners here love their LS and would buy another one in a heartbeat. We feel it's the best combination of performance, handling and luxury for the money. Test drive one and you'll see for yourself.

    You need to drive it. If you like it, buy it.
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    slowdriverslowdriver Member Posts: 41
    My Firehawks were worn to the bars at 23K miles. The Lincoln dealer told me there was no warrantee. The local Firestone/Bridgestone store (company owned) gave me the 60,000 mile pro-rata warantee credit on the tires towards a set of Bridgestone Turanza Revos of $400. I paid only $40 per tire. I highly recommend you go to a firestone store, for the warrantee service. There are most likely other tires which could be selected. The service was excellent at Firestone.

    Happy tire shopping......
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    slowdriverslowdriver Member Posts: 41
    The issue with trading your car to the dealer is about the dealer's cost and risk of buying the trade-in, given the current market glut and economic slowdown.

    When I got my LS, I sold my 92' Continental myself. I got 50% more than the dealer offered. Even after the ten or so test drives I gave to the prosctive buyers, the extra $2000 +/- was worth every penney.
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    rec3rec3 Member Posts: 22
    I inadvertantly got wax on some of the black plastic on the lower portions of the sides of my LS. The stuff is prestty stubborn, and has not come off with cleaners that I think are safe to try. Does any one have a recommendation on how to remove the wax without harm to the black plastic?
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    rec3rec3 Member Posts: 22
    My climate is mild enough to not require opening the windows very frequently, but I can see that the express open feature for all windows and the moonroof would be very useful in hot climes. Based on the posts concerning the rear window mechanism failures, I understand that many owners are unwilling to use this feature until there is a proven fix for the window problem. As an interem measure, the dealer could disconnect the wires to the rear windows so they would stay closed when the other windows were opened. Just a suggestion.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The dealer was correct - Auto manufacturers don't warranty the tires - the tire mfr does.
    Now if I could just find a Firestone/Michelin store that would give me credit towards a new set of Michelins......
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    keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    Use a solution of Dawn dishwashing liquid and warm water. Dawn is very alkaline and WILL remove wax so be careful to apply it only on the areas you want to remove the wax. I would recommend using a small sponge or 100% cotton facecloth and gently wipe the wax away. When the soap solution begins to sheet rather than beading up you have removed all the wax. I am a detailer and this is what I use to remove previous/built up wax.

    BTW, your current situation is not harmful to the plastic. Unless you have alot of white showing from excessive wax making the car "unsightly" you may want to leave it alone. Most waxes will evaporate from summertime heat in a couple of weeks anyway. E-mail me if you need more information.
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    johnnylincjohnnylinc Member Posts: 308
    As of January 1, 2001, tires ARE included in Lincoln's warranty for 2001 and later models, and it's retroactive to the beginning of the '01 model year. I received a letter from Lincoln confirming this. It doesn't cancel or eliminate the tire manufacturer's warranty--that remains in effect--but it does provide another resolution option if tire problems arise.

    A manufacturer's rep, e.g. a Firestone store, might still be the best place to go for help, but your Lincoln dealer now has responsibility, too, if you have an '01 or '02 LS.

    On another topic: Has anyone seen an '02 LS on a dealer's lot yet? I saw a bunch of 2002 Town Cars, Continentals, and Navigators yesterday, but no LSs. Are they keeping them all in Michigan due to the cooling system situation?
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    drolds1drolds1 Member Posts: 247
    It sure is good to have access to your detaling expertise.


    I found an ad in the back of Car & Driver for the Langka paint chip repair method. I checked out the website at http://www.langka.com & it seems too good to be true. Have you ever had any experience with this?

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    lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Based on a recommendation on this forum, I've been using dawn for car washing for over a year.

    Keyrow, please tell me it isn't so.
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    grizzleydadgrizzleydad Member Posts: 15
    I am an LS8 Sport owner, 2000 black on tan. I have been an avid reader of this page for quite a while, but I have not had much new to contribute. I have really had very few problems with my LS (16,980 miles) and have just been witing for the inevitable window problem to arise or fall as the case may be. My RR window just gave up the ghost, but to my surprise it failed in the "UP" position. I have not heard of anyone else having that problem.

    I must add that I really enjoy the opportunity to take the BMW 5 series crowd to task on every major corner I can...I just smile and wave good-bye as I see them shrink in my rear view mirrors!

    In spite of the differing opinions that I read every day, I am convinced that this is one excellent group of individuals...I thank you all for the great entertainment, the news, and all of the tips.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I stand corrected on tire warranties. I would guess Ford is doing this since their dealers now sell tires. In the past I don't think it was possible.

    gschwartz - NEVER use dawn or any other dishwashing liquid to wash your car. It will strip the wax. I don't recall seeing that recommended here. I do recall someone that was getting ready to put on wax (may have been Zaino) using it to get the old wax off before putting on the new wax. Maybe you got confused by that post. Get a good quality car wash liquid.
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    streetracerstreetracer Member Posts: 134
    You are talking about "controlled" power slides, putting the tail out and drifting all 4 wheels. I am talking about cornering within traction limits. You can turn the wheels less and use power to corner, in a FWD/AWD. The RWD will give you higher limits, and let you corner beyond the limits i.e. 10/10ths or 11/10ths. I am just saying in FWD you can expand the limits by turning less and using the gas more. I don't play on exit ramps, so don't worry. I prefer open highway sweepers and s-turns or at least interchanges, to double the limit (i.e. 100 in 50 or 75 in 35). I am a big fan of the LS and RWD, my next car will be a RWD or AWD, with dynamic stability control :)
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln is the major sponsor of the U.S. Open tennis tourney. I just saw Marat Safin pull up to the tennis center in a black LS sport. And he's already up one service break early in his match. Coincidence? Hmmmm.........
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    keyrowkeyrow Member Posts: 214
    Although I have never personally used it, I have a couple of friends who have and they are quite satisified with the results. Basically it is a weakened paint thinner and since you are applying it to paint that has not had time to dry it will remove the still soft paint without being strong enough to harm fully cured paint. As with any paint thinner it may also lighten the freshly applied paint just a bit, so little that you may not be able to tell without the repair being pointed out (but any good detailer will spot it in a New York minute which is also true of any repair regardless of whether the repair was a "do-it-yourself" job or professionally done). Other than this, it ought to work as advertised.

    Gschartz: YES, I'm sorry to report that Dawn WILL remove wax, both natural and polymers. Start using a product designated as a Car Wash. These are designed to not harm any type of wax.
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    reneleblancreneleblanc Member Posts: 144
    I just posted a message, and I think the edmunds board *ate* it! Where did it go?
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    ronniepoohronniepooh Member Posts: 339
    Any dish liquid is will remove wax. Its fine to use if you want to strip off old wax, and you are about to immediately put on a fresh coat of wax, otherwise, use something like Zip Wax or Zymol wash or any number of car washes designed for cars.
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    stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    Dawn is also one of the best hand cleaners. I've used it for years to wash synthetic oil from my tools and drain pans. Next to lacquer thinner, Dawn is one of the best cleaners and probably the best water soluable surfactant commonly available.
    Amazing stuff!
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    olsenjolsenj Member Posts: 1
    I am currently thinking about a LS - 2001 and have test driven the V6 and V8. While I only got to test drive the V6 and V8 about 5 miles each, I did not find a big difference. In fact the V6 automatic seemed to shift more smoothly, while the V8 seemed kind of rough or shaky. The V8 had a little more pick-up but not like what I expected for the additonal horsepower and price. I would like any opinions, insight, or recommendations on these two engines from current owners. I also am looking at the Acura TL-S 2002 where it seems like you get a lot of options for the money compared to the 2001-LS. Any opinions on these two cars for the price?
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    karzzkarzz Member Posts: 151
    A minor point, but the Acura TL model you refer to is a Type S, not a S-Type, as in Jag. How Honda gets away with that designation I don't know.

    Anyway, when comparing costs don't forget to factor in the free maintenance on the LS.
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    streetracerstreetracer Member Posts: 134
    I am looking at both of these cars as well, in addition to a bunch of others. I haven't had the opportunity to test drive these two yet. I think they are pretty equal in terms of luxury, so will focus on performance.

    The big difference will be RWD (LS) vs FWD (TL-S). The RWD offers acceleration (weight shift is to not away from driving wheels) and braking advantages (more weight stays on back wheels allowing you use brakes/tires). The RWD will also have cornering advantages due near 50/50 weight distribution, and a lighter quicker steering.

    The RWD car will have a tendency to drift at the limits not understeer or plough. You will also be able to put the tail out with the throttle and drift, effectively cornering beyond the traction limits. However, within the limits the TL-S might be just as good, plus understeer is usually considered easier to recover from and more predictable.

    You can also use the throttle in FWD to prevent understeer to a certain degree, turn the wheel less, and use power (gently) to pull you through.

    I think both the V8 and V6 LS will have more low end torque, useful for acceleration off idle in any gear from any speed to any speed. The TL-S has a smaller displacement engine and uses variable valve timing to preserve torque resulting in more high end horsepower.
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    ronniepoohronniepooh Member Posts: 339
    Stanny referred to a pretty good site about rear wheel drive and its advantages/disadvantages. www.rearwheeldrive.org. Personally, I couldnt fathom owning a FWD car again any time soon. (Im 34 now) I owned 3, then when I switched to RWD, I was totally sold. The driving dynamics are so much better, assuming you are a driving enthusiast. IF you just want to get from point a to point b, then it doesnt matter to you.

    Regarding the LSV8 vs LSV6, they are both great cars with great engines. The difference isnt the same as the difference between say the BMW 528i (193hp) and the BMW 540i (280hp), but then again the price gap isnt the same either. WHen comparing prices, note that the V8 LS comes with the convenience package as standard. That lessens the perceived gap in price. If you live out west, lots of open highway stretches, I would personally consider the V8. Other than that, I think the 210hp of the V6 is more than adequate. It is for me. It also depends on what you are coming from. Are you coming from a 6 cylinder or a 4 cylinder? The LSV6 will probably be a stepu up for you. Are youcoming from a car with a powerfuly V8? You may want to stay with an 8. Whatever you do, forumulate your own decision, and not that of any magazine critic. Drive them both yourself, and you tell if there is a MAJOR acceleration/power difference. (oh, youve already done that). :-)
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Acura offers a Nav system and the LS doesn't, if that's important to you.

    The Acura is still FWD while the LS is RWD and handles better. Hit the brakes hard doing 50 mph (safely of course!) - the Acura should nose dive at least a little while the LS will stay perfectly level. Same for launching hard - the Acura should squat a little in the rear while the LS will not. And the LS has a better weight balance which also helps handling. But if you're not impressed by the V8 performance why are you looking at the Type S version?

    Acceleration difference between the auto V6 and V8 LS is very noticeable - maybe you just weren't pushing them hard enough to see the difference. But if you like the V6 then you can save some $$. But you don't get the message center on the V6.

    The TL has Xenon headlamps.
    The LS offers Advance Trak stability control, 17" wheels w/sport package, automatic windshield wipers and full fold down rear seats and six-disc in-dash cd changer. Plus memory seats and electric tilt/telescoping wheel.

    The Acura is a nice car and if I were buying a FWD sports sedan it would probably be the choice. Only thing that bothers me is that from the front you can't tell it apart from an Accord (at least I can't). Only you can decide if the extra features are worth the extra $$. We obviously think it was or we would be on the other owner's forum.
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