Can Honda get its mojo back?

isellhondas

I don't see this happening but I suppose I could be wrong.

For Hyundai to surpasss Honda will never ever happen.

hoosiergrandad

I stand by what I said. 2 previous Accords developed a shudder at about 30K. I was offered settlement money for the brake job on the 08 I had.

I can't swear that the Honda service people didn't overtighten lug nuts..they claimed they torqued them properly.

One of the vehicles I drive is a triaxle that goes at about 60K pounds loaded. The name of the game with it is to use the brakes as little as possible......this influences the way I drive a car. I have an F150 with 110K on its original brakes.
I t
Maybe the CRV is less prone to brake problems. I know some IL editors gripe about brake wear on some of their long term Hondas. Maybe you think they'd tear the horn off an anvil, though.............

Still think Honda makes a great car.

isellhondas

I've also owned Accords and Civics with no brake problems.

They did have a problem with 2008-2009 Accords going through rear pads prematurely but they found a fix for it.

As far as warped rotors, I stand by what I said.

hoosiergrandad

When IL's longterm Crosstour developed brake "judder" as they called it, there was a discussion over possible causes. A brake expert chimed in that pulsing was seldom caused by rotor warpage, but rather by uneven buildup of pad residue on the rotors. He may be correct. I realize my claims have no credibility unless you know me, so I'm gonna give up. Meant no offense.

hpmctorque

"For Hyundai to surpass Honda will never ever happen."

I ususally agree with you, but I think the saying "never say never" applies. Improbable, maybe, but certainly not impossible.

tlong

I don't see this happening but I suppose I could be wrong.

For Hyundai to surpasss Honda will never ever happen.

You could be right, but I hope Honda does not have that attitude which is very dangerous.

When I look at who has not necessarily the top sales, but the momentum, Honda is not it. And that was not true a decade or two ago.

isellhondas

That is why I hope the higher ups from Honda read forums such as this one.

Yes, it could happen but highly doubtful.

For that matter, who would have thought a car from Japan could ever outsell an American car?

I can remember when Made in Japan meant junk!

fintail

What do you mean, Doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan :shades:

ruking1

Or was that Ohio (wasabi)

I do know the 04 Civic (others also) was a concept hatched in LA LA LAND (Honda's Los Angeles, CA design center)

If I am not mistaken mine might be made in CN, or was that parts of the Chevrolet Z06? It's all kind of running together anymore.

fintail

That's a movie line, FWIW

Was the 06 Civic done by a Saturn designer? It sure looks like a Saturn to me.

ruking1

That would not explain the rear end suspension problem/s, now would it?

tlong

That is why I hope the higher ups from Honda read forums such as this one.

Yes, it could happen but highly doubtful.

For that matter, who would have thought a car from Japan could ever outsell an American car?

I can remember when Made in Japan meant junk!

I agree that I hope Honda execs read these posts.
I would not call it highly doubtful. I think Honda had better be darn worried RIGHT NOW and do something about it, starting with the next vehicles in the pipeline.

Who would have ever thought that GM would go bankrupt, either?
I can remember when Made in Korea meant junk! Those days are gone.

isellhondas

We've talked about this before.

The trouble is, the first of the Korean cars were pretty pathetic and they quickly got a reputation for being junk.

The first of the Japanese cars were crude, primitive and tinny BUT, they ran well, didn't break down and were very reliable.

The Koreans could have done this but they didn't.

OK so now assuming (and I agree) that the "junk" days are over, the reputation of not that many years ago still lingers in the minds of many.

If they were thousands of dollars less than a similar Japanese car, more people might be tempted.

I do know that some shoppers are swayed by the 10 year, 100K Powertrain warranty and I think that's foolish. The chances of a powertrain failure between 60,000 miles and 100,000 miles is practically nil.

Still, I think Honda should simply boost their prices by a couple hundred dollars and match that warranty just to stop the Korean boasting over something that isn't that big of a deal in the first place.

And, the changes that you think Honda should be making would no doubt turn off some buyers. Everryone has a different idea about how a car should look and drive.

tlong

And, the changes that you think Honda should be making would no doubt turn off some buyers. Everryone has a different idea about how a car should look and drive.

Well, I had an Accord in the '90's, and I have an '05 TL now. The new TL is ugly and nothing Acura currently sells has my interest. We almost bought an '06 Ody Touring brand new, but I was smart enough to realize that the Michelin PAX tires had special wheels and I would probably end up needing to replace them if they didn't take off in the market. Of course Michelin discontinued them and now owners are screwed and pay $1000 per tire change on those vans, or pay over a grand for new wheels and tires to "de-PAX" them. Honda lost a big sale from me over those tires. Now there are class action lawsuits and a lot of P.O.'d owners.

I've moved on to Mazda and the Europeans for smaller sporty vehicles. As you say, hopefully there are enough other buyers to replace me who want bigger and less nimble. I know VW is (stupidly IMHO) counting on this as well to increase their sales. :surprise:

isellhondas

I guess my question would be, WHY exactly did you have to have a Touring?

I never understood that. I always thought the Tourings had a lot of usless "stuff" that I know I certainly had no use for. Did you really "need" all of those frills?

I think Honda got sold a load of goods from Michelin and they bought into it.

Sandman6472

Put it this way, if my car got totaled in the next 6 months & I needed a new car, I'd run right over to the Hyundai store and test the Elantra. Ask them to hold it for me then test the Focus & the Cruze so as to make an informed decision. Then, pick which one was the best. Wouldn't even give Honda a look see since I don't see their 2012 model as anything "new" as compared to the other three...it's just not as good as the other three, in my opinion! Sure, I loved the '06 Civic when I bought it but it's no longer the top of the heap that it was when new. With the 2012 model, Honda just didn't go far enough...period.

Can't wait till a couple of years from now to see the sales figures...bbut I think Hyundai/Kia will become the old Honda/Toyota!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

tlong

I guess my question would be, WHY exactly did you have to have a Touring?

The only way to get the adjustable pedals was on the Touring, as my wife is quite short. I was willing to stretch up to the $40K, but once I realized I'd either be paying $1K/tire change, OR paying $1.5K to change out tires and wheels (which supposedly violated Honda's warranty), that was a deal breaker.

Instead we ended up buying a Mazda 5 for $23K, AND a used 2004 Ody for $17K. Two vehicles for the price of one! And Honda lost the sale...

hpmctorque

"...it's just not as good as the other three, in my opinion!"

I hesitate to challenge an opinion, but I can't help but question its value before you've even even sat in a '12 Civic or read a comparison test.

isellhondas

Oh, OK, I can see the adjustable pedal part if there was a need.

The PAX tire thing was a dumb move on Honda's part although I'[m sure it SEEMED lke the thing to do and something that was going to become more widespread.

Stores came up with HUGE amounts of money just for the special tire machine required.

Changing tires and wheels didn't void any warranties so I'm not sure where that came from.

I'm sure if a woman who got a flat in a bad part of town on a dark rainy night would have been damm glad she had PAX tires but the negatives far outweighed the plusses at least in my opinion.

isellhondas

How can you say that without even seeing the car? A lot of times the spy shots aren't even close to the finished product.

Does something have to be " all new" to be better? Don't think so.

I'll take your bet. Hyundai and Kia won't even come close.

isellhondas

Exactly! How can anyone form an opinion on a car that hasn't even been released?

lemko

You rock, sandman! Let them keep their soon worthless black goop and let them go back to killing each other over the finer points of Islam!

nippononly

I was beginning to wonder if there was widespread information available on the '12 Civic that I had somehow missed.

Fact is, we know precious little beyond 1 tiny little JPEG and some speculation. Or are there specs and other photos of the production model available somewhere?

Honda's attitude towards the Civic redesign, held up almost a year from the original schedule, may indicate that they do get it - that the competition will be eating them for lunch in 5 years if they don't get busy right now improving the product and making it stand for something. If it is not going to stand for the ideals of well-engineered (as opposed to pandering to a marketing department), efficient, lightweight, and fun as it has in the past, then it had better have a new easily-discerned mission statement that is clearly demonstrated by its new models.

I really hope the new Civic doesn't have the Jetsons-movie digital dash that the current one has. Even if I had been looking to purchase a new compact car in the last five years, the Civic would have been ruled out for that feature alone.

Sandman6472

Love it personally & it's helped me stay ticket free since purchase because I can see the exact mileage at any given moment so I don't speed...a winning dash for me at least! Took it out for a short spin today & still had that grin on my face...it still is the right vehicle for me at this time. G-d must be tempting me as I saw & parked next to a few RX330's & RX350's...and in the generation I like the best. Buying one is still sitting in the back of my mind & might become reality one day. And I'd bet no matter what the wife buys next year, she'd switch with me if I ever did buy one!

Got lots of patience & time here...lots of it! And wouldn't it be a hoot if I did do it, since we purchase whatever we want now...I'd truly be the happiest guy on earth. Ain't kidding here either guys!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

tlong

I actually think the digital two-tiered dash is one of the things where Honda has shown a bit of remaining innovation. It doesn't seem to have hurt Civic sales for the current model.

fezo

First time I saw that dash it was an automatic no go.

A couple of years later I got one as a loaner while my Ody was in for maintenance. Took no time at all for it to be no big deal.

I'd certainly prefer a more normal dash - what I'd really like would be full analog gauges but I know not to expect that.

hpmctorque

From the photos I've seen, the new generation Civic continues with the same dual level dash design as the current generation.

anythngbutgm

2012 Civic specs

Sandman6472

There are some tweaks to where the gas gauge & temp gauge are also...the whole upper housing looks to be longer also. I just think they could've done a bit more styling on the exterior...looks somewhat bland to my generation...just wished they'd have pushed the envelope some more to compete better with the Elantra, Cruze & Focus which I believe will be their direct competition.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

nippononly

No word there on how successful they were at holding size and weight creep in check, but hopefully the new model weighs less than the current model. Weight is one thing Honda should focus on reducing throughout its lineup in the near future.

I wonder how much the SI will increase in price, given that it will now use the TSX's powertrain.

Sandman6472

Interesting pics, but just not sold on the new looks. Need to get a brochure & take some time to look things over carefully. Still don't think it went far enough like the Elantra or Focus in terms of styling...it was the benchmark back in '06 when I got mine...think Hyundai & Ford have left it behind in that department!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:

hpmctorque

I don't think it's an actual improvement when the styling is radically changes each generation. As I look back over several generations of cars, I see many examples where change doesn't represent aesthetic improvement.

Look at BMW and Mercedes. They rarely make radical styling changes, yet their designs always look contemporary and tasteful. Maybe Honda has adopted a similar design philosophy for the Civic and Accord.

isellhondas

For me to read the comments.

Like always, what one person likes,l another dosen't etc.

" Honda should have..."

" You would THINK Honda would have...."

" I don't like the dash"

" Oh, I REALLY love the dash"

Personally, I think it looks just about like the old ones.

tlong

I remember when the current gen CRV pics first came out, people were saying how horrible and ugly it was, how it was a big step backward. Now of course the current CRV sells much better than the previous model! Just some perspective.

Not like the Accord, however, which I DO think was a step backward.

hpmctorque

Have you had a chance to see the new Civic? Can you tell us the introduction date, or will Honda permit sales to begin as the cars reach the dealership?

jopyhuvire

It's funny to see this discussion basically minutes after posting a question on brand new Honda Civic LX having a check engine light on continuously and dealer not being able to repair it after three days with the car.

I think Honda quality has gone down drastically and car buyers sense it. They are riding on their past glory and may really not care. I am really disappointed in their quality and customer treatment.

isellhondas

I've only seen photos which may or may not be accurate. As the release date approaches dealers may take deposits.

isellhondas

You're going to condemm a auto make because of some isolated problem that probably affects a tiny percentage of production?

That car either has some strange problem or the shop doesn't know what they are doing which is unlikely.

Some problems on these complex cars can be VERY difficult to isolate.

So, you are disappointed? Fair enough. Now, where will you go to find a perfect car that NEVER has any problems?

stever

Here's the rest of Jopyhuvire's story. Sounds like he's about qualified to lemon law it already.

jopyhuvire

I bought a new Civic for the reliability, too. In the week that I owned it, the check engine light has been on from the moment I drove it off the lot, it has been to the dealer three times, and nothing has been resolved. I suspect that the car's engine is being seriously compromised. The Honda reliability is a thing of the past as far as I have experienced.

I wish I had bought something else, anything else.

jopyhuvire

Steve, thanks for the link.

I wish it was that easy to qualify for the lemon law. Servicing dealer is taking the position that 2 of the days were diagnosis days and only one attempt at fixing was made. Luckily, I have the salesman's email that they fixed the problem going out the door since there was no formal work order (- who would have thought about that 5 minutes after signing the loan papers?) So, that's 2 attempts and 2 visits to diagnose and order parts. (I don't understand how with a basically unchanged car for the last 6 years (or even end of model year) the parts are not in stock.)

I assume if the local guy takes that position Big Honda will take an even more onerous position. So far, they have not even acknowledged my correspondence.

I feel like they robbed me. If I wanted a car that has been repaired, I would have bought a used one - and saved some money.

stever

Lemon law isn't your only option (and many of them are about worthless because of onerous requirements). And I wouldn't rely on the dealer's opinion that the first two visits don't qualify.

But there are other ways to unwind deals, and lemon lawyers also deal with failure of warranty claims. Like 0Patience said over in Answers, keep good notes.

Unwinding the Deal — What Are Your Rights?

jopyhuvire

I readily accept that problems will occur with vehicles, but not driving off the lot . . . and most certainly not driving off the lot in a car that is in the sixth unchanged year of a model.

The problem can be easily rectified by Honda: give me my money back.

jopyhuvire

Thanks. Yeah, I am keeping all records and making sure that each work order says "check engine light" on it.

jopyhuvire

Just curious since you apparently sell Hondas, how badly damaged is my engine because the engine light has been effectively on (or rather the engine is for a yet-undetermined reason not running properly to cause the check engine light to glow ever so-brightly in safety yellow) for at least half the break-in period?

The people who wrote the Honda owners manual seem to take the break-in period and the check engine light quite seriously.

stickguy

it is entirely possible nothing is happening to your engine, even though the check engine light is on.

There are a lot of sensors on the car, and a lot of readings taken. Anything that does not fit the parameter mapping can trigger the light. Including a loose gas cap (interpreted as a vapor leak in the fuel system). A defective sensor can be sending a message to set the light too.

absolutely you deserve to have it rectified, since it should not be on. But until the root cause is found, you can't really say if anything is happening to your engine.

I'm curious though, if the light is on, have they said what code is being reported?

jopyhuvire

Thanks.

I don't know what the specific code that was indicated. On the first visit, the service "adviser" said that the tech was not getting a reading from the purge valve and the O2 sensor. In other words, these two components were dead. So they decided that they must replace them.

The parts were not in stock and had to be special ordered. Given that it would involve another trip, I thought at the time, that it was very strange that the Honda tech would not have checked that the valve and O2 sensor were in fact operational, but the line was not operational.

In fact, when the light came back on Friday (after the tech had installed the special-order O2 sensor and purge valve on Wednesday), the Honda tech checked the parts and confirmed that the new parts were working just fine. So, now they think it is the PGFMI - apparently a circuit board that is cracked.

stever

If you haven't found them yet, there are a lot of "dedicated" Civic discussions here, like the 2011 Honda Civic one. Honda Civic Care and Maintenance is another.

jopyhuvire

Cool! Thanks!

isellhondas

Yeah, I agree. I didn't know the whole story.

In the 14 years I sold Hondas that is the most extreme story I've ever heard. not good!