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Can Honda get its mojo back?

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Comments

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    After reading your entire story I can't blame you.

    This won't damage your engine but it certainly should be fixed. I would go to the GM and ask him to exchange your car. It sounds like you've been more than patient.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Don't assume that all of the parts on your 2011 Civic are the same as a 2006 just because the cars look alike. Running changes are constantly made throughout the years.

    And if it's a part that rarely fails they may be hard to find.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Thanks. I just emailed the salesman (nice guy) and also told him what the next action would be. So, he has something to go to with his GM.

    The place where I bought it is 80+ miles away one-way. So, today would be it, (since I am tied up at work the coming week.)

    Otherwise, I have to take it the zone office. (thanks to igozoomzoom for answering my question).

    I will give the regional office until Tuesday to resolve the issue. Beyond that, I will get a lemon law lawyer (or fall back on my law degree) and file a complaint in state court for implied and express warranties. I am not waiting for the lemon law arbitration - it seems like a complete crock.

    Just sad how I was treated. I was very surprised that the servicing department on realizing that the car was just 2 days old (even if sold by another dealer) that they did not offer a free loaner. Even after the third visit to fix (in one week), no loaner, no accommodation, nothing. I really feel as if I was robbed.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    I see.

    Thanks.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think I would go back to the store where you bought it ande nicely explain what has happened and ask them to exchange it. This is rarely done but under the circumstances, it could happen.

    Don't expect another store to do this for you.

    Keep your salesperson in the loop and keep your cool.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Unfortunately, the dealer from whom I bought the car is over an hour drive away. As you say, likely nothing will be resolved.

    Putting pressure on them in one way or another is probably the only tactic.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Use the telephone and talk to the General Manager where you bought the car.

    Stress the fact that the problem existed from the beginning and let him know the steps you have taken.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    I will call them on Monday. I am not expecting much. They see a hundred like me every month and know how to dance around so you can never get a hold. If they had wanted to do right, I would have already gotten an offer to buy it back since I kept the sales guy in the loop all along.

    I would rather come on strong to resolve this. Begging and pleading for this is demeaning.

    By Tuesday, I am also planning on contacting the complaints columns of various newspapers. I really just want my money back.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited March 2011
    I don't think I said anything about begging or pleading.

    You came here looking for advise and several of us have a LOT of experience in dealing with matters such as this yet it seems you already have your mind made up as how to handle this.

    Although I do have empathy for you and a total understanding of your frustration I, for one shall refrain from giving you anymore suggestions on how to get through this the easiest way.

    Good luck. I do wish you well.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Sorry, I just really am upset at spending money on a Honda that is obviously defective and getting the run-around.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't blame you.

    A firm yet professional apprach usually works the best.

    Ask, firmly, for a replacement car and explain that you have lost all patience and trust for your brand new car.

    If you are stonewalled, THEN is the time to talk about lemon laws, lawyers and things like that.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    You are getting good advice here.

    I would not expect a loaner or anything from your local Honda dealer. You went 80 miles out of your way for, I assume, a better deal. Having to deal with them for service is part of the deal if you are looking for a loaner. The local guy has no skin in the game. You are just another service customer.

    That said you experience with American Honda does not at all sound like my experiences with them. I've had at least 5 Hondas and maybe twice had any issue and the first thing they asked after learning what the difficulty was was "What would you like us to do?" Then they did what I asked in both cases.

    Of course I wasn't asking them to take the car back. Given your unique situation it doesn't strike me as an unreasonable request but I have no idea how they will react to that.

    One thing you do want to do is great one single line of communication going - not one with the dealer, another with American Honda and another with the regional office. You want all your ducks in a row and an easy paper trail to follow.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Clearly, not having the selling dealer and the servicing dealer be the same is a problem. Then again, I was not expecting such a severe problem with a Honda let alone a Civic, probably their best engineered car.

    Hopefully, Big Honda will rectify the situation.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I hope they step up.

    While I have never had an issue like yours I've been nervous about buying from a dealer at that distance unless it's a place I go to often. I bought my first Ody from a dealer 90 miles away but just a stone's throw from my dad. Both the van and dad are no longer with us so I'm not likely to repeat that - though I certainly know people who do.

    Best of luck.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I used to see people drive two hours to "save" 100.00. Then they would come back to us for warranty work. Although the stores will be happy to do this work the customer has a whole lot more horsepower when they actually bought the car there. Just makes sense.

    And, liek you Steve, I watched many times as Honda went to all ends of the earth to make a customer happy. They fixed cars that were out of warranty and treated people quite well.

    If all fails call Honda Corporate and lay it out for them. I'm sure this will be taken care of quickly.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    As a 14 year salesperson, I would be happy to go to bat for my customers and I did carry a bit of weight.

    Now, if I had spent time working with a customer only to have them buy the car elsewhere I'm not so sure I would be tickled to do this.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    edited March 2011
    First of all thank you to all for the good advice. As is obvious, I am seriously upset at this, but the advice here is good.

    No one forced me to buy the car. After researching cars (mostly here on Edmunds and thanks for the True Cost to Own feature), I decided for the Civic - reliability and longevity were the keys. The last place I wanted to spend time was at a dealership or a shop. Well, . . . should I bring the service guys a box of donuts?

    Strangely, even if I wanted to sell it (at a loss), I can't because the car would not pass emissions inspection due to the check engine light. I think state law does not permit a seller to make a sale when the seller knows or should have known that emissions inspections cannot be met.

    As far as going to an out of town dealer, there is no Honda dealer in town. To have the vehicle serviced, I am actually not even using the closest dealer, I am going further away. I am just plain lucky that mass transit is down from the servicing dealer.

    Moreover, the price difference was on the order of $500. I offered the two local dealers a chance to match, they couldn't/wouldn't.

    Tomorrow. 2011 Civic goes in for the PGFMI relay replacement - day 4 that the servicing dealer will have it. They left me a voicemail that the parts will be in on Monday. (I hope the pastrami & rye tech has the day off.)

    Even if they fix it perfectly, for the rest of the time that I will drive it, any unusual engine behavior will me make me believe that something is wrong. I just don't trust this car. I thought that the 2012 Civic 9th generation would likely have some bugs, as do all new models, and by now the older 8th generation would have the bugs worked out.

    Once again, thank you for all the responses.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think you'll be fine and a month from now this will be just a bad memory.

    Civics are great cars but nothing is ever perfect I suppose.

    Let us know what happens!

    Oh, tell the Service Manager about the pastami. No excuse for that!
  • ken117ken117 Member Posts: 249
    Interesting. I had a Civic and I really liked the dash. My dad has a Civic and he loves the dash. Replaced my Civic with an Acura and I really miss the dash. I want my dash back!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    Honda "said the closures will result in the loss of about 16,600 units of production, including about 2,500 cars that would have been sent to the U.S.. Those models include the Fit, Insight hybrid and Acura RL."

    Quake Aftermath Severe, Deep Auto Sector Impact (AutoObserver)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,344
    I doubt anyone is going to miss those RLs!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    That's funny. I was parked next to an RL today and I'm saying, hey, that's nice."
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    They won't miss the Insights either. Too bad about the Fits!
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    For those interested, it was day 4 of the check engine light saga on my new Honda Civic LX. It felt as if it was day 400; the routine was down pat, except it wasn’t. I had stayed up too late watching CNN/BBC News coverage of the sad, sad tragedy in Japan. Hey, it's 1 AM and I am not tired! I ended up oversleeping, that time shift is killing me.

    I get in the car and let it warm up. The clock is an hour behind. I realize that I don't know how to change it, and I have no interest in reading the manual to do so. I just want this headache of car repairs to end.

    I made it to the dealer later than usual - and thanks to those posting here I made sure that the write up said "check engine light" and had today's date.

    The selling dealership's manager emails me that he is checking out the issue and later calls me. He is very, very professional, very not his problem, very blameless, very willing to help. I can accept polite, professional, willing to help, and blameless. Not his problem - well, yes and no, I am his customer, but then again as others have correctly commented he is not local to me. He has no skin in the game.

    He does tell me that a mediator for American Honda contacted the servicing dealer and the selling dealer's service department. Unfortunately, he has no contact info.

    I am somewhere further than I was on Friday (thanks in part to help offered here), but where I am exactly I am not sure.

    (We will pause here for a station break.)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    He actually does have "skin in the game".

    Even though you didn't buy your Honda there, it is under warranty and he is required by Honda to fix it.

    To his credit, it does sound like he is trying to get it straightened out for you.

    Honda does not like adverse publicity and I think you will be happy with the end result.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Around 4 I called the servicing dealer. They had replaced the PGMFI relay, and were going through hot and cold start cycles and they thought they had fixed it.

    I picked it up, noticed that the clock was not working. The radio needs a code to operate. There is part of an oily boot print in the carpet where the guy missed the rubber floor mat. The car has that new shop smell.

    It doesn't drive any differently. If that is good or not I don't know. If the PGMFI was broken and the car was running on safe mode, I would expect to feel some difference in how the engine behaves. So, it doesn't feel different, am I missing the difference or is the cause for the check engine light still not found?
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    I liked the guy. He was the first to actually reach out to me. He emphasized that Big Honda was customer friendly - then again I would not expect him to say something other than that - and he seemed convinced of it.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    The strangest part of the whole thing is that even if it is fixed the soul of the car will forever be gone for me. I am not sure whether the hosers in Ontario never installed it, the servicing techs removed it along with the parts that they replaced, or whether it got buried in the snowiest winter in 50 years on the selling dealers lot, but the soul is gone for me.

    I never felt that my old Honda Civic would let me down. In reality, after the warranty expired, the alternator went multiple times and I ended up replacing it; it went through brake parts like a hungry cousin at a BBQ. But to me, I could always count on it.

    This one? Ehh, not so much.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I never EVER heard of a Civic going through brake parts?

    NO EXCUSE for getting your car dirty and I would make them clean it up.

    As far as losing your "soul", not trying to sound abrupt but it's a CAR. It has no soul. Cars, even brand new ones can and sometimes do cause trouble. Just part of life and I hope you can get over it and learn to love your new Civic which I do believe will happen as time and I hope not too much time go's by.

    I just hope this will be a stormy start to a long and happy relationship!
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    edited March 2011
    Maybe to someone at a dealership, a car is just an object, but to lots of folks there is an attachment to the car. Most car advertising goes toward some psychological hook or another.

    As far as brake parts, It seemed like a lot to me - maybe it wasn't. In any event, I was ok in spending the money on it.

    I just want reliability; after owning an American made truck and spending Saturdays waiting for this or that to be repaired, I really wanted to avoid it.

    We'll see how long the relationship lasts.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The strangest part of the whole thing is that even if it is fixed the soul of the car will forever be gone for me. I am not sure whether the hosers in Ontario never installed it, the servicing techs removed it along with the parts that they replaced, or whether it got buried in the snowiest winter in 50 years on the selling dealers lot, but the soul is gone for me.

    You know, I've been reading your saga and I do sympathize. Clearly a new car shouldn't have problems, and a good dealer should work hard to fix a problem. But if I can respectfully say - from what I've read I'm not convinced this is a big problem. Cars are complex. When we bought a brand new Mercury Villager in 1994, the insulation in the engine compartment was torn, the glovebox door was crooked, the speedometer intermittently sped wildly up and down, and the paint had some rust looking spots on the roof. We eventually got it all fixed and thirteen reliable years later sold the car with 225K miles on it!

    I know check engine lights can come on for pretty trivial reasons - a bad wire, a bad sensor, anything like that. If the car seems to run well then I doubt very much that there was any problem with the engine. I don't think you should give up on this car for one (probably minor) problem that (hopefully) took four days to correct. We all wish you well with your new ride.
  • jopyhuvirejopyhuvire Member Posts: 21
    Another day of the 2011 Honda Civic LX, check engine light saga - the light is back.

    To recap, the check engine light went on as I drove off the lot on a Saturday. I went back, it was checked and declared fixed by the techs there as per the salesman. Light was back on on Sunday, it spent Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Monday, and today at the service department of another dealer.

    What a headache!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh man....

    At this point, you have every right to have lost all patience.

    The slightest and most difficult thing to track down is a check engine light sometimes. The slightest pinhole in a vacuum line can cause this or a sensor that checks out fine can also be the culprit.

    It was so much easier in the "old days" when even a novice like me cojld usually figure out why a car was acting up.

    When out shop had a problem child like this we would surround the car with our best talent. We would call Honda's Tech Line and muster the troops. All problems can be tracked down and fixed but it can be a frustrating thing to do sometimes. What a pain!

    Let us know!
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Not really following this thread...but did you check your gas cap?

    I had a engine light come on a couple times...the problem was my wife wasn't clicking the gas cap (3 times) when she was tightening it.

    After this it never came on again.

    Of course the dealer happily replaced the O2 sensor under warranty...and probably would have again if we didn't discover our problem.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They won't miss the Insights either. Too bad about the Fits!

    Really, when they come back on-line, they shouldn't even bother replacing the RLs and Insights lost from production, and just produce a much larger batch of Fits for shipment instead!

    The real question is how the people that designed and built desirable cars like the Integra, the old TL and Legend, Prelude, and S2000 lost their way so badly, so quickly that they think anyone would prefer models like the RL and Insight to the competition. Even the new Accord has lost its way, and I think the best the 2012 Civic can hope for based on pics and specs I've seen is to keep pace with the much more interesting new compacts on the market: Focus, Elantra, even Cruze.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    By the way, I have been following your saga also, and all I can say is never ever go back to the dealership you had it serviced at yesterday and earlier - inop radio and oily carpets when you got the car back? No way. Not to MENTION their complete inability to fix this problem despite repeat visits.

    The other thing is you may need to ask them to keep it longer next time, park it overnight and drive it at least a few miles in the morning, to duplicate the conditions that keep giving you grief after you get it back from them.

    I wish you good luck!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gerald78gerald78 Member Posts: 3
    I take it they're not selling? My mom was looking at one the other day and is thinking of buying it!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Nope, Insights don't sell. They are at roughly 1/6 of the sales volume of the Prius, and well below Honda's target sales volume for that model. Tell your mom to shoot for a great deal - the dealer should be dying to offload one of those things!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yeah, it would be smart to ramp up Fits when they are back.

    As far as being desirable, the Prelude was part of a dying market segment that included Celicas. Every year fewer and fewer were sold until it made no sesne to continue making them. S-2000's were going to be a one year only car as I understood it. Great cars that appealed to a tiny marketplace.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I understand sales on these are picking up no doubt gas price related. Nothing at all "wrong" with them.

    They just appeal to a small slice of the population. for that reason, I'm surprised Prius's sell as well as they do. I don't see it.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, I get it fine. Honda's problem with the current Insight is just that the Prius does the same job better and doesn't cost all that much more.

    The whole hybrid thing is another one of these things I don't understand with Honda. They should be knocking that concept out of the park and instead come up with one model and another that opens to tepid reviews and few sales.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    What I meant was I know know why anyone would even buy ANY hybrid.

    A person would have to drive something like 150,000 miles to break even.

    And I agree with you. Toyota got it right with the Prius while it appears Honda scratched their heads and decided to throw something together as a hybrid.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I think to a large extent hybrid buyers are making a statement type folks. For some it's also about the reduced emissions but environmentally I do wonder how much of the battery package is recyclable.

    I still think hybrids are a fill in technology - an experiment by the car makers to get to really high MPG numbers. Once they get enough numbers the cost per unit will go down and they'll start another experiment.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, hybrid customers were certainly "different" and at the Auto Show, I would stay as far away from the hybrids on display as possible.

    Questions like you wouldn't believe!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Is this one of them?

    image
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2011
    I think I went to high school with that guy.

    No, come to think of it, he painted his toenails black.

    "Honda Motor Co. Ltd. said on Monday it had suspended operations at six assembly plants until March 20, as well as for all Honda facilities in the Tochigi area, which was hard hit. As of Wednesday, there was no word if Honda planned to extend any of those closures."

    Production Halts Extended In Still Reeling Japan (AutoObserver)

    image
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Not quite that extreme! Never had a customer show up in drag.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, so you got out too early then.... :surprise:
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Hey, I used to work in and around San Francisco.

    I've seen it all and that was enough!
  • quigzquigz Member Posts: 2
    I use to drive a 2004 Pontiac GTO and spent $40-$45 bucks in gas every three days. Now I got the 2010 Insight and I spend maybe $25 bucks every seven days. I choose the Insight over the Prius because it was a few thousand cheaper.

    I am adding solar panels to further increase the miles per gallon, for anyone who is interested check out my blog here:
    http://quigzsolarideas.blogspot.com
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