Software can be written for any failure that can be predicted to occur. Software and trouble trees can be designed and written for a failure that has been predicted, created, and then practiced to be solved. Neither can be created for an unforeseen, intermittent or random issue. The "Stabilitrack, Reduced Engine Power" type posts are a perfect example. With any of those you have a failure occurring that the system can detect and of course that results in the system shutting down but it does not result in the system being able to tell anyone what is wrong.
For everything that sounds great about what Nissan is doing it comes down to they don't want us to teach the next generation of technicians to be able to do what techs like myself can do. That would make for techs that "cost the dealers too much", whch would translate into even higher labor prices for the consumer.
You may be behind the cutting edge here Doc, although I know you pride yourself on keeping up with the latest technology.
But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.
What if I challenge you this way:
You want to keep all the knowledge you need in your...well...head. Your brain case.
But what if you kept some of it outside your head--in your "other brain"---the Cloud Brain.
Last Friday I had to go to a shop to help them out with a no-start on a 2013 Escape. The base problem was the result of a technician error during assembly but Ford service information is totally useless to help try to figure this problem out. The writers of the on board diagnostic software never considered that the car could "break this way"
Here is the first capture that I took from the car. It shows what is wrong, but not why. The blue trace is compression and the red trace is the ignition command.
This car had actually been down for four months and after coming up with the necessary parts to put the engine together the shop then fought with it for two weeks going back over their work including taking it apart and putting it back together five times with no success.
This capture shows exactly what is wrong.
Total time, less than 1/2 an hour to prove what was wrong and this is something that has never been seen and documented before.
IMO Every technician capable of learning how to work at this level should get the training and be allowed to take the time to apply it. NOT have to call into a tech assist line who themselves don't know what is wrong but simply have greater authority to decide what parts to try, which BTW there were no bad parts with that Escape.
Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.
You mean the software written by humans who took centuries of combined knowledge to create beat someone at a game. How exactly does that equate to real life? You should see the ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems) training classes we are developing for top techs around the country. When those systems act up it takes highly skilled technicians to figure out exactly what is going on.
Software can be written for any failure that can be predicted to occur. Software and trouble trees can be designed and written for a failure that has been predicted, created, and then practiced to be solved. Neither can be created for an unforeseen, intermittent or random issue.
Doc, to your point of troubleshooting codes not identifying the problem but indicating which systems are involved, this itself is a programming point for the software. All system connections are now variables in the proposed software. If a certain set of trouble codes indicate a certain set of systems, a program can identify the possible connection issues. Note that it could give several possibilities, granted, but imagine for this complex problem the output is "Check fuse A, check connection System X to Y."
Also think of anti-virus software. It has that "heuristic" technology which can predict something bad even if it has never seen it before.
I am coming around to thinking that we may now be in a place to build troubleshooting logic into the car.
As for the timing issue with that truck, and the other signalling problems you have posted here, I would have to ask an automotive systems guy: Could you program detection of this into the car? The vehicle knows the cam and crank position and thus the position of every piston. How could it not be able to programmatically relate the signalling to the rotation?
You may be behind the cutting edge here Doc, although I know you pride yourself on keeping up with the latest technology.
But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.
What if I challenge you this way:
You want to keep all the knowledge you need in your...well...head. Your brain case.
But what if you kept some of it outside your head--in your "other brain"---the Cloud Brain.
Maybe humans can't expand their brains anymore to take in all the complexities of modern life + knowledge needed for work + the speed with which all this is occurring.
Our heads can't grow any larger to evolve more brain matter. If our heads got too big, we couldn't be born.
Yeah, I'm only half serious here, but it is HALF serious. Maybe there's too much for one guy/gal to know anymore to do their job successfully.
After all, what is the difference between keeping a fact in your head and keeping it somewhere where you can do get it?
What if there was this BIG SMART CARDOC, who was actually a machine, and "he" guided you step by step on how to approach and repair something?
Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.
Let me know when the machine can out drive a race car champion in F1.
Well if F1 allowed computerized driver aids, it would win!
Point well taken that software can only deal with what it has been written to deal with--but it seems to me that since the human mind created the complexity of the automobile itself, why can't it create a software complex enough to deal with it? Both are products of human intelligence.
As for training technicians to be able to deal with whatever automakers build, I think we are reaching the point where that is no longer possible given the resources at hand or the salaries offered.
I would think that today's auto technician would have to be paid at least $80,000 a year ($40 per hour), and would have to be trained as well as an aviation technician.
Obviously, aviation technicians are better trained because planes don't seem to fall out of the sky with the regularity of cars breaking down. Of course, I understand that a plane is built to a higher standard than most cars, but at least the smaller aircraft are not as complex as a modern car. (thank god).
So, more training, higher pay, and quite frankly, a higher caliber of candidates---otherwise the whole system is going to go bust.
Knowing capitalism as I do, I suspect that corporations will do anything to keep money out of the hands of employees while maximizing profits for execs and shareholders (who wouldn't give them any more money if they didn't), so I would predict a trend toward producing cars that are basically not fixable in the field except for routine items. You know, like TV sets.
So you might buy a car with a pro-rate longterm warranty on replacement, or cars will be designed for modular replacement. Certainly with electric vehicles this becomes much more feasible.
As for training technicians to be able to deal with whatever automakers build, I think we are reaching the point where that is no longer possible given the resources at hand or the salaries offered.
I would think that today's auto technician would have to be paid at least $80,000 a year ($40 per hour), and would have to be trained as well as an aviation technician.
A couple years ago my neighbor (an aircraft mechanic) sent me a link to a discussion that was in a forum for aircraft mechanics. They were cutting down on automotive technicians and one of the comments from one of them was something along the lines of "I'd like to see an automotive technician try to deal with the avionics on a modern aircraft".
I posted a reply for him. "I'll bet you would like to see that, we are used to having to figure things out that we have never seen before".
BTW the ADAS in today's cars makes aircraft avionics simple by comparison and the aircraft mechanics get to use a version of "heuristics" aka trial and error parts tossing, that isn't tolerated in our world.
Obviously, aviation technicians are better trained because planes don't seem to fall out of the sky with the regularity of cars breaking down. Of course, I understand that a plane is built to a higher standard than most cars, but at least the smaller aircraft are not as complex as a modern car. (thank god).
So, more training, higher pay, and quite frankly, a higher caliber of candidates---otherwise the whole system is going to go bust.
It is going bust......
Entry level what you have said here has some truth to it, but at the other end of the scale it is completely reversed and that is why it is so hard to find qualified automotive technicians.
Knowing capitalism as I do, I suspect that corporations will do anything to keep money out of the hands of employees while maximizing profits for execs and shareholders (who wouldn't give them any more money if they didn't), so I would predict a trend toward producing cars that are basically not fixable in the field except for routine items. You know, like TV sets.
So you might buy a car with a pro-rate longterm warranty on replacement, or cars will be designed for modular replacement. Certainly with electric vehicles this becomes much more feasible.
And wouldn't you know that instead of simply replacing an invertor in a hybrid or electric vehicle because a single component inside one has failed that we now dissasembling them and can service individual components when the manufacturers say that there are no serviceable components inside them. Would you like me to explain how the invertor takes 200v from the HD battery, boosts that voltage up to 650v and then converts it into three phase AC to drive a motor generator?
When you know exactly how something works, you can figure out ways to test and prove what is wrong with it when it doesn't. Turns out the top techs around the country already had everything that we needed to work at that level and so we are.
Then why don't you listen to the manufacturer instead of butting heads with them? If they say the part isn't serviceable, then don't service it (unless maybe it's your own car, or a buddy's, and you have all the time in the world).
As for trial and error servicing, as is done in avionics, then maybe that's what will have to happen with warranty service on automobiles. Indie shops of course can't do this, so they will specialize in narrow areas of expertise, and broken cars out of warranty will be junked or recycled by the automakers.
I can assure you that there will not be enough technicians to fix 2018 cars falling out of warranty in 5-6 years.
Doc works on those all the time I think--he recommends always buying OEM piston return springs, not the aftermarket ones.
For BMW owners, the newly installed piston return springs have to be registered through the scanner, otherwise the pistons will come up but not go back down again.
Then why don't you listen to the manufacturer instead of butting heads with them? If they say the part isn't serviceable, then don't service it (unless maybe it's your own car, or a buddy's, and you have all the time in the world).
Because they were wrong and we still have people willing to invest in their educations and skills that make work at that level viable.
As for trial and error servicing, as is done in avionics, then maybe that's what will have to happen with warranty service on automobiles. Indie shops of course can't do this, so they will specialize in narrow areas of expertise, and broken cars out of warranty will be junked or recycled by the automakers.
Without competent technicians that's exactly what will happen. Five year old throw-aways, regardless what they cost.
I need advice, I bought a 95 Lincoln Town car supposedly had blown head gaskets I found evidence and changed intake manifold gasket, flushd the motor with diesel git it runnin, cooling fan wasn't engaging so I hot wired the fan to a toggle switch, did o e last oil change with half a bottle of seafoam in the motor, replaced with good oil car started to e ran great other than it slightly missing.. car has ran at idle for 20-30 mi utes at a time, run it up the road car ran fine never went dead just the missfire ..came home next day replaced ONE spark plug, the one where the intake manifold gasket had been dumping in the back cylinder where the gasket blew, got up the road the car went dead won't start will turn over no fire no sputter I'm so Dering if the fan controller could send false info to the ECM preventing the start sequence enabling the car to run???
I need advice, I bought a 95 Lincoln Town car supposedly had blown head gaskets I found evidence and changed intake manifold gasket, flushd the motor with diesel git it runnin, cooling fan wasn't engaging so I hot wired the fan to a toggle switch, did o e last oil change with half a bottle of seafoam in the motor, replaced with good oil car started to e ran great other than it slightly missing.. car has ran at idle for 20-30 mi utes at a time, run it up the road car ran fine never went dead just the missfire ..came home next day replaced ONE spark plug, the one where the intake manifold gasket had been dumping in the back cylinder where the gasket blew, got up the road the car went dead won't start will turn over no fire no sputter I'm so Dering if the fan controller could send false info to the ECM preventing the start sequence enabling the car to run??? Or likely, being the car has sit for 2years maybe the ECM itself went faulty?
Well it's about time. About the only thing they need to realize is that this isn't just the techs of tomorrow. Top techs around the country have been at this level for the last couple of decades.....
Elevate the education of service techs to an undergraduate degree
April 16, 2018 @ 12:01 am Fixed Ops Journal 0 Shares
Richard Truett is a technology and engineering reporter for Automotive News.
SMYRNA, Tenn. — Six Nissan North America executives behind the automaker's "Fix It Right the First Time" initiative invited me to join their freewheeling after-dinner chat. What sounded like a great idea emerged: raising the degree status of service technicians. We were talking about the chronic tech shortage. Jackson Hisey, manager of Nissan's Tech Line — a call center that works with technicians at Nissan and Infiniti dealerships to fix customer vehicles and monitor quality — wondered out loud: "Which will be the first college to offer a bachelor's degree in automotive repair?"
Hisey: Degree in auto tech would mollify parents Elevating tech certification to bachelor's degree status would solve a lot of problems, Hisey said. Chief among them, reducing parents' opposition to their children choosing auto repair as a profession. The notion of a four-year — or more — degree makes sense when you consider where automotive technology is going. Self-driving technologies are rolling into showrooms on such vehicles as the Tesla Model S and Cadillac CT6. An armada of electric cars is coming soon. So why not make automotive technology and repair a STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) discipline with a bachelor's degree? All four STEM elements would be integrated into a curriculum that focuses on real-world careers.
Paging Dr. Tech Advanced new technologies, more suggestive of aerospace than automobiles, will require big changes in the way service techs think, work and communicate. Tomorrow's technician will have to function more like an engineer, or even a doctor, than a wrench-spinning mechanic.
Before techs can fix electric, self-driving, big-data-collecting automobiles, they will have to be able to perform a proper diagnosis. To do that and ensure the proper fix, technicians will need a broader skill set than they have today. I can foresee a curriculum for a STEM-based bachelor's degree in automotive repair that includes an array of courses seemingly worlds away from brake rotors, steering racks and HVAC systems. Aspiring techs would study creative and critical thinking, conductive and inductive reasoning (top-down and bottom-up logic), written and verbal communication, and management that emphasizes the importance of following prescribed processes. And math. Plenty of math.
NADA on the job The National Automobile Dealers Association is launching an initiative that focuses on promoting dealership careers. The job of the service technician is one of the first that NADA will highlight in its program, set to debut next year. "As automotive technology continues to get more and more complex, technician jobs may need the STEM classification, which may help with funding for training programs as well as candidate recruitment," says Jonathan Collegio, NADA's senior vice president for public affairs. www.autonews.com/article/20180416/RETAIL05/180419968/1147
"This is one of the things the NADA Foundation and some state associations will be investigating as we roll out the initiative," Collegio adds. During my visit with Nissan service executives here last month, I watched some of the automaker's in-house master techs, who work with technicians at Nissan and Infiniti dealerships, use many of the skills that a STEM-based education would provide.
Looking over the courses taught by Universal Technical Institute and other automotive technician training schools, I find few offerings beyond dealing with mechanical or electrical systems in vehicles. The Nissan technical specialists I spent the day with agree that tomorrow's service techs are going to need to be better thinkers and communicators. They will use a variety of advanced tools to solve complex technical problems. It's precisely the type of career for which a STEM-based education is designed to prepare students.
If techs are always behind the eight ball with regards to finances, just wait until the university keeps them for five years (STEM usually requires an internship above the four years of study) and then the associated bill arrives. When it inevitably becomes mandatory to have a bachelors in automotive tech the tuition rates will skyrocket as has happened with all other academic programs. However the field pay is not going to magically rise to meet this newfound prestige or school debt. Are dealerships going to pay employee tuition like Fortune companies do, out of self-interest? The same dealerships that do not even pay techs for warranty work?
"The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded." -- Eisenhower's final address
The automotive tech is in something of a unique position among technicians who require high levels of skill---one of the most discouraging aspects being that the work is often nasty, dirty and somewhat physically punishing.
An engineer or doctor rarely has to crawl on the floor in a drafty garage and bust his knuckles (or his head) on things. Also the longevity of the career of the auto technician is limited by his physical strength.
I do like the college degree idea, but only if the salaries upon graduation would warrant the time and expense to get it.
It's a common practice for dealers to over hire and then let the techs fight over the work that does come in. The idea is when it get's really busy, the dealer's service department can better handle the volume of customers. In theory that is all about minimizing the wait time for a customer to get an appointment.
The reality is that when it's not busy there isn't enough work to go around and that's one of the driving reasons for upselling services. If techs don't sell services they end up just standing around hoping that something shows up un-announced so that they can try to earn a few hours pay that day. It doesn't take long for service advisors to figure out which techs will look for every up-sale and which ones don't and you can bet since their pay also relies on those up-sales who the cars get directed to.
That leads us back to that "average" wage. That would be about the maximum a tech can earn, no matter how skilled he/she is in many places around the country. Yes there are some places that the techs earn more which is more about the cost of living in that area than it is anything else. To get the average you have about five techs who average $29,000 a year for every tech that makes $80,000. To become that top earning technician takes about twenty years of hard work, continuining education and personal study and you do that all while knowing that neither your job nor your income is secure unless you also keep selling those services.
The article linked above is an interesting but flawed idea. No dealer is going to allow one of their techs to go somewhere else to compete against their own service department whether they would have made any money in their bays that day or not. The article doesn't take into account that techs supply their own tools and moving them isn't a simple thing to do. The only real angle with what that author suggests is that he is trying to be a temporary employment agency. That could alleviate the idea that the dealers overstaff and could call in help when it gets busy but the cut-throat atmosphere in most dealer service departments (intentionally created by the management) would create and find flaws with the process in very short order not the least of which would be the temps would be assigned nothing but the worst of the garbage work that techs get assigned.
I'm about to head out to the shop to investigate a reported overheating condition on a Subaru that has been looked at by another shop. If you Google you can find thousands of reports of over-heating issues and dozens of fixes but as always each fix only resolves what was wrong with that car, that time, and may have nothing at all to do with the next car that shows up.
Every diagnostic routine or event occurs over one to several stages of observation, questioning, discovery, direct testing (examination) and then that either leads to a solution or sets up the next stage where the process repeats over and over until the focus is narrowed down to the exact cause of the issue. In many cases the diagnostic phases can occur simultaneously or not be required from time to time. Each portion of the routine amounts to asking questions and that goes something like this:
An observation.... The vehicle is reported to be over heating. The symptom as described by the other shop is when out on the highway the gage will read normally for a period of time and then go to full hot and once there stays there unless the car is shut off for some period of time.
Another observation..... The shop reports they have already done several steps to try and correct the issue including replace the water pump and thermostat. They then turned around and removed the thermostat and yet the symptom still occurred.
Applying questioning.... After that they started to question whether the vehicle is actually overheating and whether or not the gage is correct.
Direct testing and discovery.... They attempted to confirm temperature gage and sensor operation by direct comparison to the engine coolant temperature sensor. They even replaced the temperature sensor. They had tried to directly measure engine temperature in multiple locations and really only managed to collect confusing data during their attempts at direct testing.
Observation..... During a failure event with the coolant gage pegged hot the intake air temperature and engine coolant temperature data in the PCM showed -15f and -40f respectively. When the shop called me during the failure I asked them to go to global OBDII data and try to read the information there and they said the intake air temperature was 84f and the engine coolant was 222f.
In the end they found that they kept running back into no answer of why this is or simply appears to be over-heating. Now I have it and the first step is to forget everything they have told me about this car and start from the beginning. This should be interesting.....
If I were you, just from the get go--if this is a 2.5L engine, I would do a cylinder leakdown test and get THAT out of the way.
In the past I have seen failed headgaskets that this would have worked for some of the time and cracked cylinder heads that this also would have worked for some of the time, but not all the time. The best way to describe it is the leak only occurs once the engine and cylinder head are hot enough to allow expansion to open it up, otherwise it seals itself up and is undetectable with normal testing.
So you try to do a cylinder leakage test under normal conditions which will take you about an hour and a half and you find nothing. You then try to do it with the engine hot enough to let the problem show and maybe you find it if you can access the cylinder fast enough and maybe you just miss it because it seals itself up fast enough that the evidence is gone before you get the spark plug out.
At this point you have about four hours into the project and haven't gained any direction.
I'm not sure I would have even attempted a cylinder leakdown test on a cold engine--I mean, what's the point of that?
All I'm saying is that on some cars with widely-known, recurring issues at a high percentage rate, it's a good idea to get the obvious out of the way.
If this were one of those Ford modular V-8s with an engine miss, wouldn't you check for signs of compression gas leaks around the spark plugs? (or a spark plug stuck in the hood)
All I'm saying is that on some cars with widely-known, recurring issues at a high percentage rate, it's a good idea to get the obvious out of the way.
There is a time and place for every test, which means you need to prove that it is justified first. For example, do you really know if this is over heating or is this in fact a gage (electrical) issue?
If this were one of those Ford modular V-8s with an engine miss, wouldn't you check for signs of compression gas leaks around the spark plugs? (or a spark plug stuck in the hood)
No, at least not blindly especially since the plug can be destroyed by attempting to remove it, and besides we can discuss how to narrow the focus on that exact issue some other time.
After a fifteen minute road test, the gage was approaching the hot warning block. Scan data showed the coolant temperature between 215f and 220f. Heater output was poor. This photo has major clues if you understand what you are looking at.
Probably the toughest thing we have ever had to overcome is the fact that testing correctly often meant that you would take a little longer to prove what anybody could blindly guess. While a head gasket could be the cause of this failure it absolutely is not this time. The infrared photo above was taken from the front of the car while the temperature gage was nearly pegged. The red oval is the part of the radiator where the cap and upper hose attach, the yellow is the top tank of the radiator.
This next photo was acquired by disconnecting the radiator fan relays.
I still have overheating in my Coronet. I thought possible gasket or cracked head and, like doc said, figure it possibly would show when warm. Used a leak detector on the radiator, got it hot, but rad held strong vacuum with no signs of exhaust pushing through. It didn't take anywhere near 1.5 hrs for that test, BTW.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm not sure I would have even attempted a cylinder leakdown test on a cold engine--I mean, what's the point of that?
Many if not most "blown headgaskets" would fail that test just fine and produce a confirmed diagnosis.
BTW, have you ever pulled the spark plugs on one of these engines, let alone tried to do it hot?
All I'm saying is that on some cars with widely-known, recurring issues at a high percentage rate, it's a good idea to get the obvious out of the way.
There is a time and place for every test, which means you need to prove that it is justified first. For example, do you really know if this is over heating or is this in fact a gage (electrical) issue?
If this were one of those Ford modular V-8s with an engine miss, wouldn't you check for signs of compression gas leaks around the spark plugs? (or a spark plug stuck in the hood)
No, at least not blindly especially since the plug can be destroyed by attempting to remove it, and besides we can discuss how to narrow the focus on that exact issue some other time.
After a fifteen minute road test, the gage was approaching the hot warning block. Scan data showed the coolant temperature between 215f and 220f. Heater output was poor. This photo has major clues if you understand what you are looking at.
I don't know what that is a pic of, but poor heater output tells me (if coolant level is good) there is a possible blockage in the cooling system. Has coolant flow been checked? What about IR temp readings at the intake and output radiator necks?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You have the upper radiator temperature reading color coded in the first two photos and it's 215f.
Here is the lower hose, or more exactly the lower hose connection at the thermostat. Note that it is on the drivers side of the car where you can see the heat in the previous photo.
Forgot to ask before posting--how many miles on this engine?
RE: Removing spark plugs from Triton engines: No way I'd attempt that unless the owner understands the likely consequences---if they don't spit out, they just LOVE to break off. Steel + aluminum = trouble.
Looks like blockage, / coolant flow problem. Forgot to ask before posting--how many miles on this engine
It is a coolant flow issue, the infrared camera does an excellent job of displaying actual coolant flow. The real trick here was shutting down the cooling fans so that the radiator stopped dissipating heat. That let the restricted portions stand right out against the part on the drivers side that still had some flow.
As far as the mileage goes, had you asked earlier I would have responded with this same answer, that's irrelevant. Knowing the mileage would at best encourage you to guess one way or another in a somewhat arbitrary fashion. By not knowing it you have to rely solely on testing data which leads to the correct solution each and every time.
RE: Removing spark plugs from Triton engines: No way I'd attempt that unless the owner understands the likely consequences---if they don't spit out, they just LOVE to break off. Steel + aluminum = trouble.
On top of the perils of removing the plugs, there is still the issue of spending that time without a clear reason to justify doing so. You've seen and likely been part of discussions where work like that was done that didn't lead to a solution and now it was a matter where the consumer might have been getting charged for that time.
Really tough to tell what these are pictures of. I also previously missed your post with the 2nd pic. Looks like the heat is being better distributed with the fan relays disconnected, although I have no idea why that would be the case.
edit: our posts crossed again. Ok, I see what you mean. The fans were skewing the results in a way. Now that is a trick! Good one!
I like the camera, too. I rely on a cheapo laser temp sensor and just point at every place I can find.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I also previously missed your post with the 2nd pic. Looks like the heat is being better distributed with the fan relays disconnected, although I have no idea why that would be the case.
With the fans running they pull heat from the coolant which when the flow is normal you don't a big temperature change. When the coolant is moving too slow, there is usually a big temperature change. The shop that had been looking at this was using an infrared temperature gun. The flow all the way over on one side of the radiator fooled them with that tool.
Ok, I see what you mean. The fans were skewing the results in a way. Now that is a trick! Good one!
Always figuring out new tricks. That was something that just occurred to me to try yesterday when I looked at this car. The routine has already beeen shared with professional technicians.
I"m with Q--if it's a 2.5L engine that has some miles and has already been put under stress, check the head gaskets. That's one motor that can bite a mechanic in the butt.
I still have overheating in my Coronet. I thought possible gasket or cracked head and, like doc said, figure it possibly would show when warm. Used a leak detector on the radiator, got it hot, but rad held strong vacuum with no signs of exhaust pushing through. It didn't take anywhere near 1.5 hrs for that test, BTW.
Were you the one looking for a power steering conversion or am I confusing you with someone else?
I have already put about $5k into it. I MIGHT break even on it at this point, excluding my labor, of course. Not that I was ever in it for the money, but I already have it in my head to sell it and would like to minimize my loss. Let the next owner do the conversion. Heck, I did the hard part and added the air con. ;b
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Stranger things have worked, and better ideas have often failed. Truthfully I have no idea beyond that it is going to take good techs to make it work. There are several versions of this idea that we have become aware of in just the last few months. I can't imagine a shop owner subletting out his/her best technician(s) to his "competition". Think about it, why help the competition when they are failing to be able to take care of the customers when that could drive more work to their shop instead?
Comments
For everything that sounds great about what Nissan is doing it comes down to they don't want us to teach the next generation of technicians to be able to do what techs like myself can do. That would make for techs that "cost the dealers too much", whch would translate into even higher labor prices for the consumer.
Here is a little example of how to look at this. Last Friday I had to go to a shop to help them out with a no-start on a 2013 Escape. The base problem was the result of a technician error during assembly but Ford service information is totally useless to help try to figure this problem out. The writers of the on board diagnostic software never considered that the car could "break this way"
Here is the first capture that I took from the car. It shows what is wrong, but not why. The blue trace is compression and the red trace is the ignition command.
This car had actually been down for four months and after coming up with the necessary parts to put the engine together the shop then fought with it for two weeks going back over their work including taking it apart and putting it back together five times with no success.
This capture shows exactly what is wrong.
Total time, less than 1/2 an hour to prove what was wrong and this is something that has never been seen and documented before.
IMO Every technician capable of learning how to work at this level should get the training and be allowed to take the time to apply it. NOT have to call into a tech assist line who themselves don't know what is wrong but simply have greater authority to decide what parts to try, which BTW there were no bad parts with that Escape. You mean the software written by humans who took centuries of combined knowledge to create beat someone at a game. How exactly does that equate to real life? You should see the ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems) training classes we are developing for top techs around the country. When those systems act up it takes highly skilled technicians to figure out exactly what is going on.
https://diag.net/
Also think of anti-virus software. It has that "heuristic" technology which can predict something bad even if it has never seen it before.
I am coming around to thinking that we may now be in a place to build troubleshooting logic into the car.
As for the timing issue with that truck, and the other signalling problems you have posted here, I would have to ask an automotive systems guy: Could you program detection of this into the car? The vehicle knows the cam and crank position and thus the position of every piston. How could it not be able to programmatically relate the signalling to the rotation?
As for training technicians to be able to deal with whatever automakers build, I think we are reaching the point where that is no longer possible given the resources at hand or the salaries offered.
I would think that today's auto technician would have to be paid at least $80,000 a year ($40 per hour), and would have to be trained as well as an aviation technician.
Obviously, aviation technicians are better trained because planes don't seem to fall out of the sky with the regularity of cars breaking down. Of course, I understand that a plane is built to a higher standard than most cars, but at least the smaller aircraft are not as complex as a modern car. (thank god).
So, more training, higher pay, and quite frankly, a higher caliber of candidates---otherwise the whole system is going to go bust.
Knowing capitalism as I do, I suspect that corporations will do anything to keep money out of the hands of employees while maximizing profits for execs and shareholders (who wouldn't give them any more money if they didn't), so I would predict a trend toward producing cars that are basically not fixable in the field except for routine items. You know, like TV sets.
So you might buy a car with a pro-rate longterm warranty on replacement, or cars will be designed for modular replacement. Certainly with electric vehicles this becomes much more feasible.
I posted a reply for him. "I'll bet you would like to see that, we are used to having to figure things out that we have never seen before".
BTW the ADAS in today's cars makes aircraft avionics simple by comparison and the aircraft mechanics get to use a version of "heuristics" aka trial and error parts tossing, that isn't tolerated in our world. It is going bust......
Entry level what you have said here has some truth to it, but at the other end of the scale it is completely reversed and that is why it is so hard to find qualified automotive technicians. And wouldn't you know that instead of simply replacing an invertor in a hybrid or electric vehicle because a single component inside one has failed that we now dissasembling them and can service individual components when the manufacturers say that there are no serviceable components inside them. Would you like me to explain how the invertor takes 200v from the HD battery, boosts that voltage up to 650v and then converts it into three phase AC to drive a motor generator?
When you know exactly how something works, you can figure out ways to test and prove what is wrong with it when it doesn't. Turns out the top techs around the country already had everything that we needed to work at that level and so we are.
As for trial and error servicing, as is done in avionics, then maybe that's what will have to happen with warranty service on automobiles. Indie shops of course can't do this, so they will specialize in narrow areas of expertise, and broken cars out of warranty will be junked or recycled by the automakers.
I can assure you that there will not be enough technicians to fix 2018 cars falling out of warranty in 5-6 years.
Doc works on those all the time I think--he recommends always buying OEM piston return springs, not the aftermarket ones.
For BMW owners, the newly installed piston return springs have to be registered through the scanner, otherwise the pistons will come up but not go back down again.
I guess those piston return springs DO need to be replaced! It was right there in the Owners Manual!
www.autonews.com/article/20180416/RETAIL05/180419968/1147
Elevate the education of service techs to an undergraduate degree
April 16, 2018 @ 12:01 am
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Richard Truett is a technology and engineering reporter for Automotive News.
SMYRNA, Tenn. — Six Nissan North America executives behind the automaker's "Fix It Right the First Time" initiative invited me to join their freewheeling after-dinner chat. What sounded like a
great idea emerged: raising the degree status of service technicians. We were talking about the chronic tech shortage. Jackson Hisey, manager of Nissan's Tech Line — a call center that works
with technicians at Nissan and Infiniti dealerships to fix customer vehicles and monitor quality — wondered out loud: "Which will be the first college to offer a bachelor's degree in
automotive repair?"
Hisey: Degree in auto tech would mollify parents
Elevating tech certification to bachelor's degree status would solve a lot of problems, Hisey said. Chief among them, reducing parents' opposition to their children choosing auto repair as a
profession. The notion of a four-year — or more — degree makes sense when you consider where automotive technology is going. Self-driving technologies are rolling into showrooms on such vehicles
as the Tesla Model S and Cadillac CT6. An armada of electric cars is coming soon. So why not make automotive technology and repair a STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) discipline
with a bachelor's degree? All four STEM elements would be integrated into a curriculum that focuses on real-world careers.
Paging Dr. Tech
Advanced new technologies, more suggestive of aerospace than automobiles, will require big changes in the way service techs think, work and communicate. Tomorrow's technician will have to
function more like an engineer, or even a doctor, than a wrench-spinning mechanic.
Before techs can fix electric, self-driving, big-data-collecting automobiles, they will have to be able to perform a proper diagnosis. To do that and ensure the proper fix, technicians will
need a broader skill set than they have today. I can foresee a curriculum for a STEM-based bachelor's degree in automotive repair that includes an array of courses seemingly worlds away from
brake rotors, steering racks and HVAC systems. Aspiring techs would study creative and critical thinking, conductive and inductive reasoning (top-down and bottom-up logic), written and verbal
communication, and management that emphasizes the importance of following prescribed processes. And math. Plenty of math.
NADA on the job
The National Automobile Dealers Association is launching an initiative that focuses on promoting dealership careers. The job of the service technician is one of the first that NADA will
highlight in its program, set to debut next year. "As automotive technology continues to get more and more complex, technician jobs may need the STEM classification, which may help with
funding for training programs as well as candidate recruitment," says Jonathan Collegio, NADA's senior vice president for public affairs.
www.autonews.com/article/20180416/RETAIL05/180419968/1147
"This is one of the things the NADA Foundation and some state associations will be investigating as we roll out the initiative," Collegio adds.
During my visit with Nissan service executives here last month, I watched some of the automaker's in-house master techs, who work with technicians at Nissan and
Infiniti dealerships, use many of the skills that a STEM-based education would provide.
Looking over the courses taught by Universal Technical Institute and other automotive technician training schools, I find few offerings beyond dealing with mechanical or electrical systems in
vehicles. The Nissan technical specialists I spent the day with agree that tomorrow's service techs are going to need to be better thinkers and communicators. They will use a variety of advanced
tools to solve complex technical problems. It's precisely the type of career for which a STEM-based education is designed to prepare students.
"The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded." -- Eisenhower's final address
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=288626935008250&set=p.288626935008250&type=3
An engineer or doctor rarely has to crawl on the floor in a drafty garage and bust his knuckles (or his head) on things. Also the longevity of the career of the auto technician is limited by his physical strength.
I do like the college degree idea, but only if the salaries upon graduation would warrant the time and expense to get it.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/flat-rate-slowly-killing-auto-repair-industry-how-can-elie-massabki/
And check out the average annual wage of an auto tech in 2017!
The reality is that when it's not busy there isn't enough work to go around and that's one of the driving reasons for upselling services. If techs don't sell services they end up just standing around hoping that something shows up un-announced so that they can try to earn a few hours pay that day. It doesn't take long for service advisors to figure out which techs will look for every up-sale and which ones don't and you can bet since their pay also relies on those up-sales who the cars get directed to.
That leads us back to that "average" wage. That would be about the maximum a tech can earn, no matter how skilled he/she is in many places around the country. Yes there are some places that the techs earn more which is more about the cost of living in that area than it is anything else. To get the average you have about five techs who average $29,000 a year for every tech that makes $80,000. To become that top earning technician takes about twenty years of hard work, continuining education and personal study and you do that all while knowing that neither your job nor your income is secure unless you also keep selling those services.
The article linked above is an interesting but flawed idea. No dealer is going to allow one of their techs to go somewhere else to compete against their own service department whether they would have made any money in their bays that day or not. The article doesn't take into account that techs supply their own tools and moving them isn't a simple thing to do. The only real angle with what that author suggests is that he is trying to be a temporary employment agency. That could alleviate the idea that the dealers overstaff and could call in help when it gets busy but the cut-throat atmosphere in most dealer service departments (intentionally created by the management) would create and find flaws with the process in very short order not the least of which would be the temps would be assigned nothing but the worst of the garbage work that techs get assigned.
Every diagnostic routine or event occurs over one to several stages of observation, questioning, discovery, direct testing (examination) and then that either leads to a solution or sets up the next stage where the process repeats over and over until the focus is narrowed down to the exact cause of the issue. In many cases the diagnostic phases can occur simultaneously or not be required from time to time. Each portion of the routine amounts to asking questions and that goes something like this:
An observation....
The vehicle is reported to be over heating. The symptom as described by the other shop is when out on the highway the gage will read normally for a period of time and then go to full hot and once there stays there unless the car is shut off for some period of time.
Another observation.....
The shop reports they have already done several steps to try and correct the issue including replace the water pump and thermostat. They then turned around and removed the thermostat and yet the symptom still occurred.
Applying questioning....
After that they started to question whether the vehicle is actually overheating and whether or not the gage is correct.
Direct testing and discovery....
They attempted to confirm temperature gage and sensor operation by direct comparison to the engine coolant temperature sensor. They even replaced the temperature sensor. They had tried to directly measure engine temperature in multiple locations and really only managed to collect confusing data during their attempts at direct testing.
Observation.....
During a failure event with the coolant gage pegged hot the intake air temperature and engine coolant temperature data in the PCM showed -15f and -40f respectively. When the shop called me during the failure I asked them to go to global OBDII data and try to read the information there and they said the intake air temperature was 84f and the engine coolant was 222f.
In the end they found that they kept running back into no answer of why this is or simply appears to be over-heating. Now I have it and the first step is to forget everything they have told me about this car and start from the beginning. This should be interesting.....
If I were you, just from the get go--if this is a 2.5L engine, I would do a cylinder leakdown test and get THAT out of the way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So you try to do a cylinder leakage test under normal conditions which will take you about an hour and a half and you find nothing. You then try to do it with the engine hot enough to let the problem show and maybe you find it if you can access the cylinder fast enough and maybe you just miss it because it seals itself up fast enough that the evidence is gone before you get the spark plug out.
At this point you have about four hours into the project and haven't gained any direction.
BTW. Who pays for that????
All I'm saying is that on some cars with widely-known, recurring issues at a high percentage rate, it's a good idea to get the obvious out of the way.
If this were one of those Ford modular V-8s with an engine miss, wouldn't you check for signs of compression gas leaks around the spark plugs? (or a spark plug stuck in the hood)
BTW, have you ever pulled the spark plugs on one of these engines, let alone tried to do it hot? There is a time and place for every test, which means you need to prove that it is justified first. For example, do you really know if this is over heating or is this in fact a gage (electrical) issue? No, at least not blindly especially since the plug can be destroyed by attempting to remove it, and besides we can discuss how to narrow the focus on that exact issue some other time.
After a fifteen minute road test, the gage was approaching the hot warning block. Scan data showed the coolant temperature between 215f and 220f. Heater output was poor. This photo has major clues if you understand what you are looking at.
This next photo was acquired by disconnecting the radiator fan relays.
See the difference?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Here is the lower hose, or more exactly the lower hose connection at the thermostat. Note that it is on the drivers side of the car where you can see the heat in the previous photo.
Forgot to ask before posting--how many miles on this engine?
RE: Removing spark plugs from Triton engines: No way I'd attempt that unless the owner understands the likely consequences---if they don't spit out, they just LOVE to break off. Steel + aluminum = trouble.
As far as the mileage goes, had you asked earlier I would have responded with this same answer, that's irrelevant. Knowing the mileage would at best encourage you to guess one way or another in a somewhat arbitrary fashion. By not knowing it you have to rely solely on testing data which leads to the correct solution each and every time. On top of the perils of removing the plugs, there is still the issue of spending that time without a clear reason to justify doing so. You've seen and likely been part of discussions where work like that was done that didn't lead to a solution and now it was a matter where the consumer might have been getting charged for that time.
I also previously missed your post with the 2nd pic. Looks like the heat is being better distributed with the fan relays disconnected, although I have no idea why that would be the case.
edit: our posts crossed again. Ok, I see what you mean. The fans were skewing the results in a way. Now that is a trick! Good one!
I like the camera, too. I rely on a cheapo laser temp sensor and just point at every place I can find.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The temp gun still has it place but the camera's really are amazing in how we can juse them. They work for parasitic drains, relay issues, fuse block issues, missfires (especially diesels) and much much more. They also have advanced significantly since I bought that one. The one Flir camera takes a regular photo and overlays the infrared and you can slide the image to allow you to see detail in the photograph and then slide it the other way to see where the heat is.
https://www.flir.com/products/flir-one-gen-3/?model=435-0005-02&pi_ad_id={creative}&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5-TXBRCHARIsANLixNwqxxN8djT54YsIGMAibH36K6XRC_GR4w1VPI-gLQfxkhGAXDCLoucaAnRUEALw_wcB
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1962-1982-mopar-complete-power-steering-conversion-kits/?wc_mid=4035:12026&wc_rid=4035:1300236&_wcsid=FEB175758C718633ABA32727DA6C69B993A6593275FE087A
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Read through the comments. Many of them are right on and some of them couldn't be more wrong.
https://www.esfi.org/resource/electrical-apprenticeships-611?gclid=Cj0KCQjw0PTXBRCGARIsAKNYfG0JXsnr_p9jeAU04jRPEP2ofP2Q4PFwzvBX_u1tARNzar68Xiwm3XwaAvBTEALw_wcB