A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Mr_Shiftright

So if that data is accurate, a licensed electrician makes considerably more money than an auto tech.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/automotive-service-departments-are-scrambling-for-technicians-feature Read through the comments. Many of them are right on and some of them couldn't be more wrong.

I pulled that article out of my hard copy and gave to a friend whose son is in college and talking of being a tech.

Mr_Shiftright

Are you trying to encourage him or discourage him?

qbrozen

discourage. ha.

thecardoc3

Sad, because being a tech really should be a great career choice. It's going to take a lot more press to make consumers aware and put pressure on the dealers and business owners to make the necessary changes. But of course those changes are going to come at an increased cost and that will be reflected in those same consumer prices.

Looks like there won't be much changing anytime soon.....

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

....I can assure you that there will not be enough technicians to fix 2018 cars falling out of warranty in 5-6 years.

Seems like a possible argument for trading in a recent tech-laden car sooner rather than later....?

isellhondas

Actually, that is no joke. " My adaptive cruise control on my 12 year old CTS isn't working right. Can you fix it?"

Mr_Shiftright

If you are an automobile mechanic around 60 years old, you'd probably agree with this statement:

"It used to take 15 minutes to diagnose a car and 8 hours to repair it. Now it takes 8 hours to diagnose the car and 15 minutes to repair it".

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

If you are an automobile mechanic around 60 years old, you'd probably agree with this statement:

"It used to take 15 minutes to diagnose a car and 8 hours to repair it. Now it takes 8 hours to diagnose the car and 15 minutes to repair it".

The part that I disagree with is attempting to make a generalized statement.

thecardoc3

isellhondas said:

Actually, that is no joke. " My adaptive cruise control on my 12 year old CTS isn't working right. Can you fix it?"

Sure. That's easy especially compared to today's ADAS systems.

Mr_Shiftright

Well of course it's generalized, but you get the point I trust.

thecardoc3

Actually no. The career and the work really need to be approached scientifically and above all, accurately all of the time. That's why it fits in STEM more than it does labor.

I suppose we could debate the old adage "If a tree falls in the forest....." at the same time.

andres3

The closest Audi dealership to my home is charging $169/hour labor rates nowadays (I only know, because I asked, because Audi's don't break down ) . If they can't get the finest mechanics and technicians for $169/hour, they might as well hire brain and heart surgeons.

thecardoc3

That means their top techs are making about $35.00 per flat rate hour average. "IF" a tech turns fifty hours a week in labor, that would be a pretty good annual wage of some $91,000. Forty hours a week would see them make about $72,800. If the cars don't break and they are doing nothing, then that's what they make for the day at work, nothing.

Mr_Shiftright

That's not a very good salary where I live, if you had a family.

xwesx

thecardoc3 said:

If the cars don't break and they are doing nothing, then that's what they make for the day at work, nothing.

That's a major issue, IMO. If techs are strictly paid on a billable basis, it is severely undercutting their wage base. At minimum, the dealers should be looking at their wages as a base+ scenario (somewhat akin to restaurant workers), where they earn a base wage for those 40 hours, and then they earn a rate on top of that for output. The base wage might not be a lot ($15-17 /hr), but it at least ensures that they can put food on the table just by showing up (even if the work does not).

Without that, all the risk rests on the shoulders of the techs!

thecardoc3

xwesx said:

Without that, all the risk rests on the shoulders of the techs!

That's exactly the way it works...

andres3

thecardoc3 said:

That means their top techs are making about $35.00 per flat rate hour average. "IF" a tech turns fifty hours a week in labor, that would be a pretty good annual wage of some $91,000. Forty hours a week would see them make about $72,800. If the cars don't break and they are doing nothing, then that's what they make for the day at work, nothing.

Well, there's is always overpriced glorified oil changes where the tech supposedly checks 100 things while doing it, so that they can charge $350 for a glorified oil change.

There are also tire rotations, brake jobs, and other maintenance items to keep them busy. Of course, with $169/hour rates I imagine only the dumb or super rich A8 owner is still going to the dealership.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not a very good salary where I live, if you had a family.

Welcome to the 2-income household State.

Mr_Shiftright

Even with 2 people each making that salary, you'd get by fine but you wouldn't be living large by any means. And if you had two kids and a mortgage, you'd still be pretty much broke at the end of the month.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think most Americans are aware that we are NOT in a "strong economy" at all--when you consider inflation, income to debt ratios, and that workers' wages have remained essentially stagnant for the last 30 years, Americans are sinking faster than they might themselves even realize.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think most Americans are aware that we are NOT in a "strong economy" at all--when you consider inflation, income to debt ratios, and that workers' wages have remained essentially stagnant for the last 30 years, Americans are sinking faster than they might themselves even realize.

I dunno; I suspect perhaps most people do realize this, which is one of the reasons why politics are so polarized right now! There are many recent articles in national publications that discuss the "wealth gap" being more stark now than ever in history.

One big powder keg, if you ask me!

berri

Personally, when you go back 30 years I think income is worse than stagnant; buying power decreased per capita because now generally both spouses have to work to afford a nice home and cars.

andres3

There was a recent article and study that showed "post-Great Recession" the oldest demographics have recovered the best, and the millenials have gotten the most shafted. In fact, they may never recover financially in their lifetimes from that Great Recession that supposedly ended in 2010 (says who?).

I always said the bailouts benefited the 1% the most by far without a doubt, and the 1% is mostly old people.

I'm still surprised there were NOT more young people out protesting the bailouts than Trump being elected.

Anyways, there may be a scenario sometime soon where CEO's find 400 of their workers outside their home with torches and pitchforks ready to carry out some vigilante justice.

berri

A lesson from the depression was that when the middle class fails, ultimately they take many well off down with them. I'm concerned how the middle class is shrinking and getting the short end of the stick in America these days. Congress and the White house talk middle class, but in actuality give most to the wealthy.

Mr_Shiftright

TECH LIVE LOOK FROM PORSCHE

thecardoc3

So will increased productivity cause an equal increase in technician compensation, or will this be an excuse to try and employ less experienced personnel at a lower cost?

Meanwhile. If you haven't looked at what Snap-On tools cost these days, https://store.snapon.com/Hand-Tools-C700010.aspx

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think you have to spend that kind of money on every tool you might use. You might want that Snap-On ratchet for everyday use but a Harbor Freight 36" breaker bar passes every test a Snap-On one does and costs 1/4 the price.

Still, the "tools of the trade" for an automotive technician are extremely high in cost. The dealer or repair shop should front all the highly specialized tools.

0patience

I have $60K of my personal tools inventoried on my service truck.
We have to keep an inventory for insurance, in case our service trucks are ever broken into.
Some employers do a pretty good job at supplying specialty tools, other...........not so much.
So a lot of times, the tech makes the choice, sink or swim.
Usually they end up making the purchase of the tool.
Not right at all, but in retail shops, the tech doesn't really have a choice.
They either try and do the work without the tool, taking a lot longer or they buy it and do the work.

Fleet is whole lot different, but without the specialty tools, some jobs become a major pain.
Over the years, I've made a lot of purchases of tools that should have been covered by the employer, but by me owning them, I can use them where I want, when I want.

Some fleets are now supplying tools for the techs, simply because there is no purchasing of new tools and the tech is ready to work on their equipment. And instead of paying $24-34/hour, they can pay $20-30/hour.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think you have to spend that kind of money on every tool you might use. You might want that Snap-On ratchet for everyday use but a Harbor Freight 36" breaker bar passes every test a Snap-On one does and costs 1/4 the price.

Still, the "tools of the trade" for an automotive technician are extremely high in cost. The dealer or repair shop should front all the highly specialized tools.

How many specialized tools do you need to do that 30-hour timing belt/chain change on that old 4.2 V8 Audi A6?

And while your in there you should do X, Y, and Z too, right?

Mr_Shiftright

If you're like my friends, who run the Porsche/Audi repair shop--they are specialists, so they are all "tooled up".

As they say "We work on Porsches for fun, and Audis pay our rent".

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

TECH LIVE LOOK FROM PORSCHE

BTW, I was thinking about this. There have been times where ideas along this line were about a computer software program being able to tell someone what to do. The key point of this system is that there is a technician on the other end of the system who has to have the knowledge and skills to guide the user through the tasks.

That's something techs like myself often do for other shops/techs and you have seen some samples of that here, but it still required us to learn how to do it all correctly in the first place. While a system like Porsche's can save the day on a given repair, what exactly is it doing with regards to the need to grow more qualified technicians?
When you watch the video, it essentially has someone do a minimal repair that should only take a qualified tech a few tenths of an hour to perform, with no outside help at all even when that particular issue is one that the tech has never encountered before. Now granted one would hope that the person in the video (if he was a tech) has now learned how to deal with that one problem "IF" he ever encounters it again, but when you really understand the work that techs do the odds are greatly against him ever seeing the exact same failure a second time which makes the fix knowledge just a different cup of water in the ocean.

isellhondas

0patience said:

I have $60K of my personal tools inventoried on my service truck.
We have to keep an inventory for insurance, in case our service trucks are ever broken into.
Some employers do a pretty good job at supplying specialty tools, other...........not so much.
So a lot of times, the tech makes the choice, sink or swim.
Usually they end up making the purchase of the tool.
Not right at all, but in retail shops, the tech doesn't really have a choice.
They either try and do the work without the tool, taking a lot longer or they buy it and do the work.

Fleet is whole lot different, but without the specialty tools, some jobs become a major pain.
Over the years, I've made a lot of purchases of tools that should have been covered by the employer, but by me owning them, I can use them where I want, when I want.

Some fleets are now supplying tools for the techs, simply because there is no purchasing of new tools and the tech is ready to work on their equipment. And instead of paying $24-34/hour, they can pay $20-30/hour.

As some of you know I spent 20 years in management for a major mobile tool company. It used to amaze me how these guys could take home 200.00 a week and fork out 50.00 of that to his tool guy. Chances were good he had another account with another tool company. I recently learned that a bent handled 3/8 dr ratchet with a flex head sells for something like 220.00 on a Snap On truck! Just for kicks I bought one through Amazon from a company called Textron and it is PERFECT in every way and I paid less than 30.00 for it including tax!

I'll admit I used to scoff at Harbor Freight and the "junk" they sold. Today they have a premium line and that 1/2 inch breaker bar is a piece of art and it's about 20% the price of the big guys.

I never thought I would be saying this.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

If you're like my friends, who run the Porsche/Audi repair shop--they are specialists, so they are all "tooled up".

As they say "We work on Porsches for fun, and Audis pay our rent".

I used to know a guy by the name of Gerhart Assenmacher. Sound familiar? Very nice guy whose company sold all of the specialty tools that were required to work on these lovely European cars. These were made by companies like Hazet and Stahlwille. If you happened to break one, it was tough luck! You would be told..." What? you break tool? What you think this is, Sears?...You break tool because you ABUSE tool! Gud mechanic NEVER break tool...you butcher"! Actually they had a word in German that meant the same as butcher or hack. It was a disgrace to break a tool!

I wonder if old Gerhardt is still kicking?

thecardoc3

These exact tool sets linked below all cost about three times as much off of the tool truck. It's nice that we have this option today, but we didn't have it not all that long ago. Consider that Amazon is buying directly from the manufacturer of the tool exactly the same as companies like Matco, Mac, Snap-On etc do. Then they distribute them to their dealers who have to turn a profit to keep their truck rolling on the streets. The downside of course is the tools that they do still sell have to make-up for the revenues that they lost when we make purchases elsewhere. So we really don't save all that much in the long run.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=audi+timing+tool&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=241926766797&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15876109973234973693&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005824&hvtargid=kwd-6901935647&ref=pd_sl_1ojw0tgmxj_e

guitarzan

Can you provide a job estimate? I have a new mechanic and I simply do not know anything about them yet except that they have done some repairs just fine but, perhaps by coincidence of the jobs and parts required are usually charging me full OEM prices. The car is my 2000 Celica GTS. There are disk brakes in the rear with a drum-style parking brake on both sides.

The parking brake is not holding the vehicle. Since I had replaced all of the cables I was thinking this would be a matter of adjusting the parking brakes and adjusting the cable slack, poof done. The mechanic said the "backing plates" (I am unfamiliar with this) that the parking brakes mount to are rusted through and they are on the axles. Ouch. As a result the cost to replace both backing plates is $1000 with the only option being OEM parts. How does this sound? This job is in full motion but I am not dedicated to this mechanic. We have several choices in close range, and some of the others have been superior in the communication aspects of providing service.

One other question: How long should the AC remain cold in between charges? I never get more than one year out of mine, and I have had pressure tests done and replaced a condenser that had a hole in it. It is now being recharged. I have the gut feeling that somewhere there are mystical leaks that no one will ever find, or there is something mechanics are not telling me, ergo this system will never last long between charges again. After this charge, what should I expect, and at the next failure, what do I demand of the mechanics to set it right?

roadburner

There's definitely an A/C leak and you need to find a competent tech who will track it down.

Mr_Shiftright

I would think that an AC charge, even in a very hot climate, should last around 3 years. It's possible on a car as old as yours that finding such micro leaks may not be worth the expense of insuring against them--but on the other hand, you'd think that such minute leaks would seal with a sealer. Are all the o-rings being replaced?

I always recommend going to an AC specialist.

Not sure about the rear brake dust cover--I presume that the hub is attached to it and needs to be unbolted (torx screws I think). Then maybe new bearings and seals?

A cost estimate depends on what all they are doing in there. I don't think we have enough details yet.

guitarzan

Mr_Shiftright said:

I would think that an AC charge, even in a very hot climate, should last around 3 years.

Great thanks, this is the first general reference anyone has given to me.

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's possible on a car as old as yours that finding such micro leaks may not be worth the expense of insuring against them--but on the other hand, you'd think that such minute leaks would seal with a sealer. Are all the o-rings being replaced?

I am ignorant on specifics that have been done previously to the AC so this gives me a path forward. I understand that just like the cooling system and oil gaskets, if the AC is built with o-rings and these are toast after 10-15 years, then I have no problem having the job done to replace them and see what happens. I will start the 3-year timer today.

So there is sealer for AC just like stop-leak for cooling systems? Perhaps that is the next step after gaskets.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I always recommend going to an AC specialist.

How do I identify an AC specialist? I see that some chain shops advertise doing many AC systems, like Firestone. It would scare me to blindly go back to any chain shop. But is that it, I must go by their ads soliciting for AC work?

Mr_Shiftright said:

Not sure about the rear brake dust cover--I presume that the hub is attached to it and needs to be unbolted (torx screws I think). Then maybe new bearings and seals?

The secretary that I had to talk with knows nothing of the job so I was not able to extract specifics. I too figured they might do bearings... Okay, I guess I will find out the detail when I get the car back LOL.

Thanks a lot.

isellhondas

thecardoc3 said:

These exact tool sets linked below all cost about three times as much off of the tool truck. It's nice that we have this option today, but we didn't have it not all that long ago. Consider that Amazon is buying directly from the manufacturer of the tool exactly the same as companies like Matco, Mac, Snap-On etc do. Then they distribute them to their dealers who have to turn a profit to keep their truck rolling on the streets. The downside of course is the tools that they do still sell have to make-up for the revenues that they lost when we make purchases elsewhere. So we really don't save all that much in the long run.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=audi+timing+tool&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=241926766797&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15876109973234973693&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005824&hvtargid=kwd-6901935647&ref=pd_sl_1ojw0tgmxj_e

We used to average around a 25-30% mark up on specialty tools. We had to carefully remind our customers that they were sold with NO WARRANTY! If they broke a Hazet socket they were out of luck. It was risky special ordering this stuff only to find out they had changed their minds or the product wasn't what they wanted. When they would break a German socket or wrench they would often still whine.

guitarzan

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's possible on a car as old as yours that finding such micro leaks may not be worth the expense of insuring against them--but on the other hand, you'd think that such minute leaks would seal with a sealer. Are all the o-rings being replaced?

The new tech/owner charged the AC and added dye. My prior tech/owner had not used dye, and I am told even small leaks will now be revealed by this. He explained that if he sees a leak he can now replace any individual o-ring. So we'll see what happens over this next year. I am happy with the new guy's path forward.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Not sure about the rear brake dust cover--I presume that the hub is attached to it and needs to be unbolted (torx screws I think). Then maybe new bearings and seals?

A cost estimate depends on what all they are doing in there. I don't think we have enough details yet.

I have the car and an itemization. Aside from all new rear brake parts, including disk & parking, due to corrosion they had to replace one wheel bearing and hub assembly. The Toyota "backing plates" are $300 a piece. Ouch. That's $600 in parts right there. Now that I see this, the $1000 repair bill for this makes sense. Labor was at $72/hour, a lot lower than my prior location.

I will continue to go to the new guy as everything he has done makes perfect sense and the car works well.

isellhondas

72.00/hr labor is about HALF what they charge around here!

Mr_Shiftright

Now there's a case where a trip to the wrecking yard might help. I mean, those backing plates are just a pressed metal stamping.

guitarzan

I talked with my new owner/tech about skills. He has 50 applications sitting on his desk. He said he will ask in an interview, "What do you know about troubleshooting drivability problems?" Aka this is when it is not a clear cut repair but he owner says, "Every two days it does this." None of the applicants know anything about troubleshooting such. He is open to hiring new techs right now but based on this finding new techs from an army of applicants is extremely difficult.

A tech may tell him they want the job, paying $35/hour performing brake jobs, this and that. He said that does not warrant $35/ hour but he needs a troubleshooter for these wages.

He pays by the hour. He stated that if they have a real slow time and employees are on commission, someone may come in and have 40% of their brakes left, and for sure they would replace the brakes on that car, having no income and nothing to do. Thus he pays hourly so that incentive is never there.

The conversation sounded just like Cardoc. Also it sounds like this guy does everything exactly the opposite of what dealers do LOL.

He talked about the massive amount of new information, new problems, and how it is all constantly changing.

He has a customer with some old car, I think a 60's Camaro. He told the guy to leave the car for several days. The guy was upset with the delay. He told him that he does not even touch carburetors anymore and needs to spend some time on it, poking around, just remembering how this thing is supposed to be set, before he can tune it. "It will come right back to me, but it is not there right now!"

He talked about a Ford F150 spark plug problem, (I think this was mentioned here.) He says that soaking in penetrating oil overnight will loosen them and also soften the carbon deposits and keep the carbon gooey. Customer's are not patient with this extra time, and he has to painstakingly convince them that it mitigates the risk of the plugs breaking if he just attacked them, which would cost the customer a lot more.

Here is another familiar one from this thread: A customer asked about a repair and he told them he had to troubleshoot it and it may take X time. "You're going to charge me for troubleshooting my car?&*! My old mechanic never did that." "Well ma'am, he may not have itemized it on your receipt, but it is in there, somewhere." An uphill battle for sure.

thecardoc3

https://www.facebook.com/983704668369815/videos/2022142131192725/?fref=gs&dti=626961847445443&hc_location=group

guitarzan

It is very sad the injury that man suffered. To your points Doc about analyzing a vehicle or repair from the very beginning and not making any assumptions going in, it seems that anyone going under an unknown vehicle for the first time must approach it with caution or risk this. Is that advice included in tech training?

Mr_Shiftright

I think just about all of my mechanic friends (professionals and amateurs) have suffered some kind of nasty injury---not as bad as that poor guy, but a couple of very close calls, as well as cuts, bruises, broken fingers, sprains and the like. It's a young man's job. After age 55 or so, I think most mechanics should be thinking of trying something else--either management level or another trade.

I had a couple of close calls and they weren't my fault at all. One time, a fan blade from an Alfa Romeo broke off and whizzed right past my head--it was only plastic, but nonetheless. Another time, a friend asked me to look under her hood because she smelled something funny on her BMW 3 Series. I saw a coolant leak at the upper radiator hose. I put a screwdriver on the clamp and the neck broke off, spewing hot coolant--fortunately, the "spew" was away from my eyes. Turns out this was a typical BMW problem, and I suppose a regular BMW mechanic would know better.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think just about all of my mechanic friends (professionals and amateurs) have suffered some kind of nasty injury---not as bad as that poor guy, but a couple of very close calls, as well as cuts, bruises, broken fingers, sprains and the like. It's a young man's job. After age 55 or so, I think most mechanics should be thinking of trying something else--either management level or another trade.

I had a couple of close calls and they weren't my fault at all. One time, a fan blade from an Alfa Romeo broke off and whizzed right past my head--it was only plastic, but nonetheless. Another time, a friend asked me to look under her hood because she smelled something funny on her BMW 3 Series. I saw a coolant leak at the upper radiator hose. I put a screwdriver on the clamp and the neck broke off, spewing hot coolant--fortunately, the "spew" was away from my eyes. Turns out this was a typical BMW problem, and I suppose a regular BMW mechanic would know better.

Maybe they'll program the robots to do car repairs too, rather than just assembly work.

Mr_Shiftright

Well a robot certainly could perform many R&R tasks, although each car they are programmed for would have to be exactly the same, or they'd have to be programmed for the differences. Probably not feasible in everyday auto repair, but they could be used say to swap battery packs on EVs if that ever became "a thing".

isellhondas

We used to do split rims and I can tell a couple of scary stories when disaster was narrowly avoided. Also those miserable on the car high speed wheel balancers when the clamp decides to com off at 80 MPH.

Coil spring compressors that break without warning trapping a hand between the control arm and the frame of the car. Yes, a lot of ways to get hurt or worse!