In my experience I'd estimate that at least 75% of the people that screw up SHOULD be "chased from the bays." They are lazy and/or just don't care. The largest percentage of those types are found in Quickie Lube franchises as well as a LOT of other franchise shops. Next in line would be new car dealers, and finally independent shops.AS a matter of fact, when I wrote my monthly automotive column for a local newspaper I advised finding a good dealer service department or indie shop and using them exclusively, as selecting shops on price alone virtually ensured that your car will be serviced by incompetents. I recently found the file that contains most of those articles, and I'll post excerpts from a couple.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I really don't agree with the idea that blame should never be applied. Now if a shop takes full responsibility for the mishap, and makes good on it (which any good shop will do), then the shop owner can deal with the tech who screwed it up. It's not the customer's job to console the technician and boost his self-esteem.
So you replace my timing belt and the tensioner breaks in 10 miles. That's probably your fault. You have to eat this, fix my car, and make things right. Then, afterwards, you can review what the tech did wrong, or failed to notice.
Everybody who works on cars is going to have a bad day. You just have to man up and learn from it. The customer doesn't need a lecture on your struggles. He probably has his own.
Of course, shops have to "fire" some customers now and then--they are cranky, unreasonable, or just plain hustlers.
I really don't agree with the idea that blame should never be applied.
While you should "never say never" the main point is if placing blame is the ONLY thing someone knows how to do they make things worse instead of better.
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil. This video here explains the first problem well and has some good 3-D video from Hyundai. It's kind of long, and so skip ahead to c. 10:30 if you want to see the soot in the engine pic. Anyway, in terms of what to do about this, it seems like there are maybe three main things to do: 1) Try to make sure your engine goes up to full highway operating temp at least once a week, and probably more often than that 2) Check and change oil more frequently, and 3) Maybe also use premium 93 octane gas? This last one I'm least sure of. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil. This video here explains the first problem well and has some good 3-D video from Hyundai. It's kind of long, and so skip ahead to c. 10:30 if you want to see soot pic. Anyway, in terms of what to do about this, it seems like there are maybe three main things to do: 1) Try to make sure your engine goes up to full highway operating temp at least once a week, and probably more often than that 2) Check and change oil more frequently, and 3) Maybe also use premium 93 octane gas? This last one I'm least sure of. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U
There is very little to be done, IMHO. I suppose a cleaner burn could postpone it, but I don't believe manual cleaning can ever be avoided in the DI design as we currently know it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
There is very little to be done, IMHO. I suppose a cleaner burn could postpone it, but I don't believe manual cleaning can ever be avoided in the DI design as we currently know it.
Hmmm. That's too bad. Seems like a reason for leasing rather than buying a turbo with direct injection, but that ship already sailed for us.
Is it costs that prevent companies from using both port and direct injection? Seems like from the video using both solves the problem. And Toyota is apparently already doing that with some of its engines. Maybe Honda and other companies are next?
In my experience I'd estimate that at least 75% of the people that screw up SHOULD be "chased from the bays."
OK lets run with that. How long would anyone last as a technician if they were held to that standard? Would the unit of measure be days, minutes, or seconds? There isn't anybody who isn't going to make a mistake from time to time and while your statement does allow for 25% of the people to have some room, how could even they work under that kind of a threat? Even then, with basically only 25% of the current service capacity remaining, what would auto repair cost?
They are lazy and/or just don't care. The largest percentage of those types are found in Quickie Lube franchises as well as a LOT of other franchise shops. Next in line would be new car dealers, and finally independent shops.
J.A. A friends son graduated from an automotive school and went looking for a new job. A local Chevrolet dealer hired him for the quick service team at a princely sum of 10 or so coconuts per hr. After 6 months or so, he wanted to switch to general repairs in the shop. They agreed and put him on shop flat rate at the same pay.
My friend advised his son to stick it out for a couple months and show them what he is capable of. He went back to the S.M. after 2 successful months and was told that they couldn't afford to pay him more. He went to another local dealer and was offered 6 coconuts more than what he was making.
He went back to his present employer and asked for a matching raise. They offered to raise his pay by 3 coconuts only, so he gave a two week notice. He was told that he couldn't leave as one of the many papers that he signed when he started working was a Non-Compete agreement. He said "Good, I'm leaving anyway. I have no money for you to sue me." After he started his new job, the service manager told him that his previous employer called them up threatening to sue for poaching one of their employees. All this for a new guy just trying to get started in the trade. Bodes well for the future, doesn't it?
AS a matter of fact, when I wrote my monthly automotive column for a local newspaper I advised finding a good dealer service department or indie shop and using them exclusively, as selecting shops on price alone virtually ensured that your car will be serviced by incompetents. I recently found the file that contains most of those articles, and I'll post excerpts from a couple.
Sadly those "incompetents" who given proper training and support could grow to become tomorrow's master technicians no longer work alongside a master technician who could help guide them, double check their work and when necessary teach them how to avoid the common mistakes as well as the not-so common ones. There is no shortage of people both inside and outside of the trade who should shoulder the blame for that, but as I keep saying that doesn't solve the problem it only perpetuates it.
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil. This video here explains the first problem well and has some good 3-D video from Hyundai. It's kind of long, and so skip ahead to c. 10:30 if you want to see the soot in the engine pic. Anyway, in terms of what to do about this, it seems like there are maybe three main things to do: 1) Try to make sure your engine goes up to full highway operating temp at least once a week, and probably more often than that 2) Check and change oil more frequently, and 3) Maybe also use premium 93 octane gas? This last one I'm least sure of. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Hang out on the Bob is the Oil Guy(BITOG) site and you will find dozens of luddites and grumpy geezers complaining about GDI motors. Problem is, I'd say that only 0.5% of those fools have actually owned one. My Mazdaspeed 3 had a GDI turbo; having heard all the horror stories I had multiple used oil analysis performed. The analysis revealed that Mobil 1 5W-30 was good for as much as 10,000 miles. Valve deposits? Based on in-gear acceleration times, the MS3 was just as fast at 150k miles as when I first timed it at 26k miles. As for fuel, I always ran Top Tier fuels(I run it in all my cars save the Wrangler). I wasn't seeing any issues with the N55 motor when I worked at BMW, so it gets 10k miles/1 year changes- using BMW 0W-30. Ditto for the naturally aspirated N12 motor in the Clubman.
Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it. As an interesting aside, BMW offers a proprietary chemical valve cleaning that works pretty well. Just about the time I left my dealer was evaluating a similar process offered by Valvoline and my SA has told me it seemed to work really well also. That said, all the hand-wringing over GDI will encourage some dealers/shops to push valve cleaning-non-GDI or not-when in some cases it simply isn't necessary. Luckily, I have a first-rate SA; when I asked him about using the BMW procedure on my non-GDI Club Sport at 140k he said, "You've always run high quality fuel and maintain it obsessively- it's not necessary."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil. This video here explains the first problem well and has some good 3-D video from Hyundai. It's kind of long, and so skip ahead to c. 10:30 if you want to see the soot in the engine pic. Anyway, in terms of what to do about this, it seems like there are maybe three main things to do: 1) Try to make sure your engine goes up to full highway operating temp at least once a week, and probably more often than that 2) Check and change oil more frequently, and 3) Maybe also use premium 93 octane gas? This last one I'm least sure of. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
I wouldn't do anything special with it outside of factory recommendations to start.
Then, send in an oil sample for at least the first two or three times you change your oil. You can use many providers; I use blackstone-labs.com. Include a TBN (extra $10 at Blackstone) the first couple of times so that you can see how well your oil is buffering acids. The oil analysis will show you how your engine is wearing internally, and it will also provide you feedback on fuel dilution. Once you establish a baseline on the TBN, you don't need to keep ordering those (I use it for determining reasonable OCIs for extended intervals).
Equipped with this information, you can then modify your behavior with the car (OCIs, fuel type/grade, additives, trip frequency and duration, etc.) and with an idea of what results you might expect, as well as being able to continue to see how the oil looks over time (whether doing samples at every OCI or less frequently).
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil. This video here explains the first problem well and has some good 3-D video from Hyundai. It's kind of long, and so skip ahead to c. 10:30 if you want to see the soot in the engine pic. Anyway, in terms of what to do about this, it seems like there are maybe three main things to do: 1) Try to make sure your engine goes up to full highway operating temp at least once a week, and probably more often than that 2) Check and change oil more frequently, and 3) Maybe also use premium 93 octane gas? This last one I'm least sure of. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U
Hang out on the Bob is the Oil Guy(BITOG) site and you will find dozens of luddites and grumpy geezers complaining about GDI motors. Problem is, I'd say that only 0.5% of those fools have actually owned one. My Mazdaspeed 3 had a GDI turbo; having heard all the horror stories I had multiple used oil analysis performed. The analysis revealed that Mobil 1 5W-30 was good for as much as 10,000 miles. Valve deposits? Based on in-gear acceleration times, the MS3 was just as fast at 150k miles as when I first timed it at 26k miles.
As for fuel, I always ran Top Tier fuels(I run it in all my cars save the Wrangler).
I wasn't seeing any issues with the N55 motor when I worked at BMW, so it gets 10k miles/1 year changes- using BMW 0W-30. Ditto for the naturally aspirated N12 motor in the Clubman.
Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it. As an interesting aside, BMW offers a proprietary chemical valve cleaning that works pretty well. Just about the time I left my dealer was evaluating a similar process offered by Valvoline and my SA has told me it seemed to work really well also. That said, all the hand-wringing over GDI will encourage some dealers/shops to push valve cleaning-non-GDI or not-when in some cases it simply isn't necessary. Luckily, I have a first-rate SA; when I asked him about using the BMW procedure on my non-GDI Club Sport at 140k he said, "You've always run high quality fuel and maintain it obsessively- it's not necessary."
So why were/are there so many reports, my own included, of the N54 needing walnut blasting by 50k miles? Always top tier premium and always oil changed by the dealer as the car requested (7500-10k).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So why were/are there so many reports, my own included, of the N54 needing walnut blasting by 50k miles? Always top tier premium and always oil changed by the dealer as the car requested (7500-10k).
The N54 definitely had issues- but the N55 and subsequent BMW turbos have not been nearly as problematic. I haven't heard of any issues with Honda GDI turbos.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Having just bought a new CR-V with a turbo with direct injection, I'm now mildly worried about two things (that are maybe related?): soot and carbon built-up, and gasoline getting into the oil.
Hang out on the Bob is the Oil Guy(BITOG) site and you will find dozens of luddites and grumpy geezers complaining about GDI motors. Problem is, I'd say that only 0.5% of those fools have actually owned one. My Mazdaspeed 3 had a GDI turbo; having heard all the horror stories I had multiple used oil analysis performed. The analysis revealed that Mobil 1 5W-30 was good for as much as 10,000 miles. Valve deposits? Based on in-gear acceleration times, the MS3 was just as fast at 150k miles as when I first timed it at 26k miles. As for fuel, I always ran Top Tier fuels(I run it in all my cars save the Wrangler). I wasn't seeing any issues with the N55 motor when I worked at BMW, so it gets 10k miles/1 year changes- using BMW 0W-30. Ditto for the naturally aspirated N12 motor in the Clubman.
Not all GDI's are created equal. There is a lot of debate about the main causes of the valve deposits. It's notable that there are engines that are not as prone to them forming as some of the others. The ones that don't run some of the stratified charge air/fuel mixtures that rely on some pretty radical valve timing do not encounter the really heavy build-up. The Mazda speed is one of the engines that doesn't run all of the possible modes.
Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it. As an interesting aside, BMW offers a proprietary chemical valve cleaning that works pretty well. Just about the time I left my dealer was evaluating a similar process offered by Valvoline and my SA has told me it seemed to work really well also. That said, all the hand-wringing over GDI will encourage some dealers/shops to push valve cleaning-non-GDI or not-when in some cases it simply isn't necessary. Luckily, I have a first-rate SA; when I asked him about using the BMW procedure on my non-GDI Club Sport at 140k he said, "You've always run high quality fuel and maintain it obsessively- it's not necessary."
Some manufacturers approve and reccomend induction services, some don't. Hyundai definately does. In fact if the consumer isn't using top tier fuel they even want an injection cleaner added to the tank every oil change. GM approves of service, Ford with their ecoboost engines do not. Then again if valve deposits occur on a Ford GDI, the only service they approve is to replace the cylinder head, they do not authorize any other repair.
VW's FSI 2.0T was also victim to harsh carbon buildup. Not sure on the TSI.
so what was changed in the N55 that would prevent carbon buildup?
The single turbo is the main difference; aside from that, all I know is that my dealer has not seen major valve deposit issues with the N55 or B58. My SA also said that the cars that get driven more aggressively have virtually no issues.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
VW's FSI 2.0T was also victim to harsh carbon buildup. Not sure on the TSI.
so what was changed in the N55 that would prevent carbon buildup?
Volkswagen switched over mid-year 2008 from the FSI to the TSI for the 2.0T engine. When we bought our Passat 2.0T, we were totally uninformed and just wound up lucky to get the TSI. When I sold that car it had 105k miles and it was every bit as fast as the day we bought it. There were some reports of the TSI suffering the carbon build up, but we always ran top tier gasoline, 93 octane, and it didn't happen to us. Not sure whether the choice of fuel helped, or occasionally (regularly) flogging the h-e-double-l out of it helped, but it did hold up really well.
My wife (now ex) had a bigger penchant for fast driving than I do. She presently owns (as a second car, strictly for fun) a ground pounding Camaro. I drove that thing once, it is scary. I would estimate sub 12 second 1/4 mile times.
My SA also said that the cars that get driven more aggressively have virtually no issues.
Like I said, maybe flogging the h-e-double-l out of it might have helped.
Back when I owned a Cadillac with the Northstar V8, the Cadillac forums had several master mechanics who stated loud and clear that you needed to (at least occasionally) "drive it like you stole it".
There is, as you know, a fair amount of incompetence out there in the auto repair field.
Does that justify treating anyone like that? It stands out because this time because this is what some people have done to Audra. When people who genuinely do the job the right way get treated like that, who speaks up for them? Well I do of course, does anyone else?
I try. But sometimes you have to look at the situation. But educating the "customer" is often what is needed for them to understand why something was done a certain way.
And a large portion of problems are also created by inexperienced service writers. I have seen some very good techs bail on a dealership to go to another one, because the service writer was not communicating very well with the customers.
And then, on the flip side, you have customers who there is no way to make them happy. So it gives a new meaning to "customer complaint".
I really don't agree with the idea that blame should never be applied. Now if a shop takes full responsibility for the mishap, and makes good on it (which any good shop will do), then the shop owner can deal with the tech who screwed it up. It's not the customer's job to console the technician and boost his self-esteem.
So you replace my timing belt and the tensioner breaks in 10 miles. That's probably your fault. You have to eat this, fix my car, and make things right. Then, afterwards, you can review what the tech did wrong, or failed to notice.
Everybody who works on cars is going to have a bad day. You just have to man up and learn from it. The customer doesn't need a lecture on your struggles. He probably has his own.
Of course, shops have to "fire" some customers now and then--they are cranky, unreasonable, or just plain hustlers.
But trying to cover up a screw-up is a big No No.
I agree with you here. Pep Boys screwing up a tire mounting install is a good example. In school, getting 3 of the 4 tires mounted correctly would get you a 75%, or a C grade. Passing right?
NO!
Not in the real world with a paying customer. The customer is paying for expert professional service. Finding one out of four tires was installed with the word "outside" on the inside of the tire/wheel assembly is simply unacceptable, F grade work.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Some manufacturers approve and reccomend induction services, some don't. Hyundai definately does. In fact if the consumer isn't using top tier fuel they even want an injection cleaner added to the tank every oil change. GM approves of service, Ford with their ecoboost engines do not. Then again if valve deposits occur on a Ford GDI, the only service they approve is to replace the cylinder head, they do not authorize any other repair.
Oh, man. The 1.6L in my little Fiesta (2011) was incredibly finicky about its fuel. If I did not feed it top tier (always used Chevron), it would start hesitating after (or perhaps during) even one tank. The stations I always used for all my other cars (for decades) just wasn't good enough for this little fella.
That was the first direct injection engine I had. Maybe only one, unless my 3L TDI is direct?
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
In school, getting 3 of the 4 tires mounted correctly would get you a 75%, or a C grade. Passing right?
NO!
Not in the real world with a paying customer. The customer is paying for expert professional service.
I have 16" Borbet wheels, my pride, made in Germany. I spent two spring weekends toiling on them, getting every last spot off of them, waxing, etc. Okay they appeared like new. I took them to a Goodyear service center to mount tires that I bought online. I got the wheels back. They are all greased up, yes, the decorative face too. The clips in the center caps are all broken. There is a gouge on the face of one of them (yes I am sure it is new because I just detailed them and had looked them over very carefully.) There is a huge gouge around the back of one that is well-known to be from mounting. When I presented this to the manager, who is the one who took them from my car and rolled them into the business, he said, "Gee I wish we knew what they looked like before we worked on them," as though I might be fabricating the complaint.
If I asked for new wheels these would be the guys mounting tires...that would be self-defeating. I told them to get me new center caps and they did.
I can guarantee that place does a lot of destruction and gets a lot of single-visit customers.
Well not all car owners are clueless. They know enough to know when a mechanic's story doesn't add up.
"We had to replace your coils, wires, spark plugs, fuel pump, ECM, wiring harness, fuel pressure regulator, TPS, PPS and timing belt----you car starts fine, now".
Owner's conclusion: Somebody's been guessing.
Remember the "Answers" forum? I remember seeing members write in asking about an estimate that they had been given by a shop to have some service done to try and correct a vehicle issue and there was no shortage of people who would shoot the estimate down without seeing the car and actually inspecting or testing anything. Scroll down the page and you found those same people advising someone else to shotgun all of those same parts on a different vehicle with a similar reported issue, again without anything being tested or inspected.
DETROIT — Ford Motor Co. is working to combat a nationwide shortage of body-shop technicians through a new initiative in collaboration with its dealerships. The automaker said retirements by baby boomers, while young people aren't taught the advantages of a career in skilled trades, have led to a problem properly staffing its dealers' service bays. Ford cited estimates that the auto industry will need to hire 45,000 technicians a year through 2026. That can directly affect the quality of repair work. "It speaks to our ability to service customers," Frederiek Toney, president of the global Ford Customer Service Division, told Automotive News. "A dealer's ability to fix it right the first time and get customers in and out in a timely manner is largely dependent on their capacity to do it."
"The technician is the heart and soul of enabling a great experience for customers." Frederiek Toney, Ford.
A poor customer experience could prove costly to an automaker: The Inter-Industry Conference on Auto Collision Repair estimates that, of owners who had a bad experience with a collision repair, two-thirds get rid of their vehicle within a year and 60 percent change vehicle brands.
Ford is hoping to avoid those negative experiences by engaging students through what Toney calls a series of coordinated grass-roots recruiting efforts to add about 5,000 technicians across its network within two years. Ford dealerships currently have about 30,000 technicians to fill 65,000 service bays across the country.
The automaker plans to add "placement specialists" at dealerships to engage with high schools, junior colleges and military bases to connect with students and teach them about vocational careers. Each dealership will be mapped to a particular school, and it will be responsible for sponsoring students by providing tuition and offering summer internships. And Ford plans to donate thousands of current model-year vehicles, as well as engines and powertrain equipment, for students to work on.
"What we want to do inside Ford is to institutionalize these things if we're going to have a sustainable program to be the bedrock of our ability to provide great customer service for our customers," Toney said. Toney said Ford already has a number of initiatives in place, but it's now bringing them all together. "If you talk to every dealer, he or she is doing something; getting them engaged is not the problem," Toney said. "We have all these disparate activities that don't tie together in a way that allow us to be efficient and get results. We're now streamlining those efforts into one national program."
Without the still-unnamed program fully in place, Toney says Ford has recruited about 800 to 900 technicians so far this year and hopes to bump that number to 2,500 by the end of the year. Today, about 40 percent of the students Ford sponsors go to work for its dealerships upon graduation. Ford is hoping to improve that number. "We're helping them recruit more effectively," Toney said. "It's not just attracting them; we need to retain them." Toney said Ford was spending "an awful lot" on the endeavor but declined to give specifics.
"Dealers have been asking for this sort of support for a long time," he said. "The technician is the heart and soul of enabling a great experience for customers."
From the article... "We're helping them recruit more effectively," Toney said. "It's not just attracting them; we need to retain them." Toney said Ford was spending "an awful lot" on the endeavor but declined to give specifics.
There are currently no reports from technicians that Ford is now paying reasonable/achievable warranty labor times that I am aware of.
I have a friend whose son was likely part of this program. He was in some sort of Ford training school at Ford headquarters (or nearby) in Michigan. He ended up dropping out because of some housing arrangement issues he was having with his in-laws. In talking with him, it seemed that he "would have liked" to remain in the program, but that, financially, it didn't really even factor into his decision before he hauled tail back to Alaska.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Audra is a straw "man" argument. That's about cultural issues. Being a man or a woman is of no concern to me. Either the tech delivers or he(she) doesn't.
Abusive people don't stop at the shop. They continue with family and friends.
A good shop supervises all its employees and doesn't give someone a job he/she can't handle.
A good shop owner has the instinct for picking the right people. Sometimes you can just look at a newbie and tell if there's a light on in there.
Audra is a straw "man" argument. That's about cultural issues. Being a man or a woman is of no concern to me. Either the tech delivers or he(she) doesn't.
No it isn't. Her gender angle only suffices to bring what would otherwise be ignored into focus.
Abusive people don't stop at the shop. They continue with family and friends.
JM wrote this in the other forum. You have probably heard me say this in here before. I NEVER leave a lot that has touched my wheels, like a PA inspection station or tire place without checking all 5 lug nuts on all 4 wheels. I have found lug nuts over tightened a couple of times and marched back into the desk at tire shops and complained. One time the guy said something like, "why are you checking them. Do you have a torque wrench or what"? My response was, "no I don't have a torque wrench and I don't think you guys have one either".
Totally ignorant of the fact that breakaway torque can easily vary 50% over the tightening torque. I can grab a few more of his quotes if one isn't enough.
A good shop supervises all its employees and doesn't give someone a job he/she can't handle.
How does someone know up front exactly where that limit is at? How does a new tech grow and eventually become a master at the trade if he/she isn't given work that will challenge them on a continuing basis?
A good shop owner has the instinct for picking the right people. Sometimes you can just look at a newbie and tell if there's a light on in there.
Now we get to the next page. How are we ever going to attract a steady stream of candidates that are bright shining lights if we don't make the career shine bright enough for them to be attracted to it in the first place?
Audra is irrelevant to the issue of training and keeping good technicians. Her difficulties are related to attitudes toward women as a whole--her being a mechanic is incidental. It's like if a customer doesn't want a gay guy or an Asian-American working on his car.
If she is being harassed, then the shop isn't doing it's job making sure good employees stay there. She could be a barista or on a Board of Directors. The same problem might exist.
As for attracting the best and brightest to a career in automotive repair, that answer is very easy:
You pay them a lot of money.
To do that, you charge customers a lot of money and you provide outstanding service that completely outshines your competition.
If you don't strive for excellence, you will be nothing more than part of the pack, where auto repair is drudgery.
Audra is irrelevant to the issue of training and keeping good technicians. Her difficulties are related to attitudes toward women as a whole--her being a mechanic is incidental. It's like if a customer doesn't want a gay guy or an Asian-American working on his car.
Totally disagree on that. She was dealing with the same kind of negatism that all techs have had to put up with, her gender just made it a little more convenient.
If she is being harassed, then the shop isn't doing it's job making sure good employees stay there. She could be a barista or on a Board of Directors. The same problem might exist.
Those stories go back to the days when she used to work for her dad. Occasionally he did step in and interveen as can be seen in her comments. But that wasn't always the case. The tendency for some customers to be very abusive was a direct result of the attitude that the customer was always right and if they complained they could benefit financially. You have made several attempts to pull this back to "if the shop made a mistake then they must" and you need to come to grips with the fact that the shop and technician doesn't actually have to have done anything wrong, they only have to be accused of it.
As for attracting the best and brightest to a career in automotive repair, that answer is very easy: You pay them a lot of money. To do that, you charge customers a lot of money and you provide outstanding service that completely outshines your competition.
Remember the "Answers" forum again? How many times did a consumer write in questioning an estimate and be told to shop around? What was CarMD saying when they first came to be? Repair Pal, Yelp, Fixd. They all wanted to look good to the consumer, and the first thing they did was to attack prices. Things have started to change today, they had to, but is it too late?
The negative attitude toward repair shops is essentially their own fault. Your argument is a chicken & egg kind of circular logic. If blogs or newspaper columns inflame the car owner to remain suspicious of the repair shop, this was often warranted. Sure, the innocent were stained along with the guilty, I must admit, but nonetheless, there were plenty of guilty ones.
Right after WW II, just about everybody jumped into the used car and car repair business---and a healthy portion of these new opportunists were not all that savory. Just page through any car magazine from the 50s and 60s and look at the cartoons or articles: Yep, they are either mocking or warning against repair shop deceptions. Go look--it's informative.
We could say the same of contractors, plumbers and lawyers. It was easy to fleece the public because demand was so high. Boom-Town!
This unsavory reputation has never really gone away. It behooves the modern repair shop to not just sit and wait around for the general public to improve their bad attitude. One can act the martyr, but what happens to martyrs?
Trust must be won these days. It's no coincidence that many new car dealerships are called "stealerships". That doesn't come from mindless paranoia.
It is true that with the complexity of modern cars, the average car owner who has been "informed" by a consumer advocate is, at best, half-informed or, at worst, badly informed. Nonetheless, this is the only defense he has.
Many shops do not deceive, but they do up-sell. Sometimes the up-sell is actually a good thing--preventive maintenance is often justified.
Nonetheless, it's up to the repair shop to disarm the customer.
People WILL pay, and pay well, for good service and a high level of competence. So what if your shop loses the bottom-feeders? Do you really want that type of customer anyway?
In my neck of the woods, highly skilled, affable (well sort of affable), clean, efficient and friendly repair shops have more business than they know what to do with. And with that success comes pressure--to run a thriving business takes a LOT of work that doesn't even involve cars per se.
Ironically, at $150 an hour, the indie shops in my area are not only outperforming the dealerships, they are undercutting them on the cost of repairs. We now have the somewhat ludicrous situation of dealers sending repair work to the indie shops.
Mr. S., California has a significant motorsports enthusiast crowd. I'm sure the weather contributes to this. Do you think this aspect of the culture affects rates and attitudes toward repair shops?
Yes, sure, to some extent. Or even if you are just enthusiast about cars in general, as in "I Love Subarus!"--it doesn't have to be about motorsports, per se.
We have a lot of specialty shops in CA, and I think developing a specialty is the way for indie shops to survive and even thrive.
It's getting near impossible for a general repair shop to work error-free on 20 different makes of car.
But if you work on the same or similar cars, day after day, you get pretty darn good at it.
Yes, sure, to some extent. Or even if you are just enthusiast about cars in general, as in "I Love Subarus!"--it doesn't have to be about motorsports, per se.
We have a lot of specialty shops in CA, and I think developing a specialty is the way for indie shops to survive and even thrive.
It's getting near impossible for a general repair shop to work error-free on 20 different makes of car.
But if you work on the same or similar cars, day after day, you get pretty darn good at it.
The indie shop I use in my hometown for my Wrangler tries to keep up but they are concentrating more and more on domestic cars as well as Honda, Nissan, and Toyota. They are always busy. When they do get a BMW I sometimes get a call to use either my Schwaben scan tool or the Carly App on my phone to register a battery or delve deeper into the diagnostics or coding. The indie shop where I take my BMWs and Mini concentrates on BMWs, Porsches, and the occasional Italian exotic, and they stay very busy as well. Both shops provide excellent service at a reasonable price- which is why I've patronized them since the mid '80s. These days I wouldn't be inclined to go to a shop that advertises that they service all makes and models.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Another thing shops are doing is specializing not in makes, but in TYPES of repairs---so brakes, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, or some combination of specific repairs. So my friend Dave will work on my Mini--he'll do the brakes, the catalytic, routine maintenance, struts, etc---but not a clutch or engine work or power windows, etc. Some stuff he'll farm out or just refer.
So I have a network of perhaps 5 different shops. I'd sooner shoot myself than go to the dealer.
Another thing shops are doing is specializing not in makes, but in TYPES of repairs---so brakes, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, or some combination of specific repairs. So my friend Dave will work on my Mini--he'll do the brakes, the catalytic, routine maintenance, struts, etc---but not a clutch or engine work or power windows, etc. Some stuff he'll farm out or just refer.
So I have a network of perhaps 5 different shops. I'd sooner shoot myself than go to the dealer.
I've only been to the Jeep dealer once; the Mini dealer isn't that impressive, and expensive to boot. My BMW dealer is first rate and with my BMW CCA discount prices aren't that bad. My SA is an enthusiast as well as an HPDE junkie, so it's a win-win.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The former manager of Marin Audi and Marin Porsche is now facing 20 years in jail. Not really the owner's fault, though.
My "network" consists of a Porsche/Audi shop, an auto glass specialist, Brakes and Mufflers, Subaru, Saab & Volvo, BMW, smog certification, and an RV place. Many of these people plan to retire within 5-10 years. I used to have connections to tires and car audio and a big used car operation, but those are all gone now.
The former manager of Marin Audi and Marin Porsche is now facing 20 years in jail. Not really the owner's fault, though.
My "network" consists of a Porsche/Audi shop, an auto glass specialist, Brakes and Mufflers, Subaru, Saab & Volvo, BMW, smog certification, and an RV place. Many of these people plan to retire within 5-10 years. I used to have connections to tires and car audio and a big used car operation, but those are all gone now.
Car makers have successfully made car audio an expensive and complicated endeavor. Also, the higher end systems in many cars are pretty good now.
I remember when cassette decks were common well into the CD era by OEM carmakers.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
GM has announced changes in their diagnostic time approach.
As previously announced in GlobalConnect Message GCUS-9-5742, GM is making several improvements to the way Dealers are paid for Technician diagnostic time. These changes are a result of listening to your feedback and modifying our processes. Effective with job cards dated July 1, 2018, GM is pleased to announce the following changes:
• Increase diagnostic allowances from 0.3 hour maximum to up to 1.0 hour based on actual time spent by the technician, impacting over 1,100 select labor operations involving electrical and module diagnosis
• Increase to the R1234YF refrigerant evacuation and recovery time allowance from 0.5 to 1.2 hours, enabling thorough and accurate diagnosis and repair, leading to higher customer satisfaction and reduced comebacks by fixing vehicles right the first time
• In cases requiring more diagnostic time than typical Warranty Diagnostic Time, dealers should utilize Other Labor Hours (OLH)
• Variable diagnostic time is no longer required on 93 labor operations involving trim and incandescent bulbs. If additional labor time is needed on these items, dealers should follow the current OLH process
The additional labor allowance should be used with the understanding that not all claims need a full hour of diagnosis time. Technician cause and correction comments must support the diagnostic steps and repair performed. GM will now require any amount submitted in the Labor Diagnosis Time field be supported with separate on/off punch times. This applies to all job cards dated on/after July 1 . Service Management authorization is not required. GM will continue to verify Job Cards for accuracy and compliance. All labor time allowance enhancements will be reflected in the July 1, 2018, Labor Time Guide publication. Service Management should announce these changes to Technicians and Warranty Administrators, covering punch time requirements and proper claim submission. Additional communication will follow, providing several examples of how to apply the diagnosis time and how it impacts existing requirements. Additional training will be available as part of the July Emerging Issues broadcast.
It's not perfect but it's a move in the right direction.
I agree, that is definitely a move in the right direction.
My father was a mechanic, I spent more than a few hours around a dealership service department when I was young. Insurance didn’t run the world then, and it was possible for a kid to hang around. We lived out in the country, and I would often after school walk down to the dealership where my father worked and hang out with him until he got off work.
My younger brother followed in that trade, and worked in dealerships for many years. For a short while he was the service director at a new car dealership. I think that job is what drove him to drink, but that’s a different story.
My point is, I do have some experience from both sides of this debate. And yes, “factory pays” being much lower than what “customer pays” is a disgrace, a travesty, and something that ought to be illegal. It is most definitely just flat wrong on the face of it.
Which does not mean that there aren’t a lot of incompetent service technicians out there. That is a different matter altogether.
And then, just for something entirely different, there are the dishonest service departments. Something we have all seen.
Do I have the answers? No. But there are many sides to this argument.
I'm getting my windshield replaced as we speak, in my driveway, by my friend Troy from Express Auto Glass in Santa Rosa.
Interesting thing is that when we took out the replacement windshield, installed by the dealer who sold me the car (I insisted on a new windshield even though it was a used car)--Troy pointed out what a crappy job they did.
What's really interesting is the pains they took to cobble it up--aside from putting the glue in the wrong place, they re-glued little plastic clips rather than replacing them, left out grommets, and cracked both the anchoring pedestals on both sides of the exterior trim. They basically massacred it.
I always noticed wind noise and an occasional leak, and just blamed Mini instead of the people who did the install work last time.
The weirdest thing is that they actually installed a factory windshield while cheaping out on everything else.
I'm getting my windshield replaced as we speak, in my driveway, by my friend Troy from Express Auto Glass in Santa Rosa.
Interesting thing is that when we took out the replacement windshield, installed by the dealer who sold me the car (I insisted on a new windshield even though it was a used car)--Troy pointed out what a crappy job they did.
What's really interesting is the pains they took to cobble it up--aside from putting the glue in the wrong place, they re-glued little plastic clips rather than replacing them, left out grommets, and cracked both the anchoring pedestals on both sides of the exterior trim. They basically massacred it.
I always noticed wind noise and an occasional leak, and just blamed Mini instead of the people who did the install work last time.
The weirdest thing is that they actually installed a factory windshield while cheaping out on everything else.
Crazy.
Well, hopefully Troy resolves all those issues; you'll have one less frustration with little zippy!
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Yep, we got 'er back together, nice and tight this time....and I can see out of it, too (bonus). We had to be really careful with the trim. Troy says Mini trim pieces crack very easily (and BMW, too, he claims). Perhaps that's partly age related.
My BMW dealer installs their own glass; with rain sensing wipers and all the Helen Keller so-called "Drivers Aids" mounted to or looking through the windshield the install needs to be performed properly. When I worked there once or twice a month we'd have someone come in who had had their windshield installed at Billy Bob's Tanning Salon, Laundromat, and X-Pert Glass Installation. Invariably sensors weren't installed properly or had fallen off. I had the dealer install my windshield and they did a first-rate job.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yep, there's only one way and that's the right way. The glass looks great, the rain-sensor works and the wind noise has considerably diminished. I presume the leaks will disappear, too. We got the trim back on nice and snug. We just spaced out the undamaged clips and used a little extra sealant. The trim doesn't support anything.
My younger brother followed in that trade, and worked in dealerships for many years. For a short while he was the service director at a new car dealership. I think that job is what drove him to drink, but that’s a different story.
There are many stories like that, but there are good ones too.
My point is, I do have some experience from both sides of this debate. And yes, “factory pays” being much lower than what “customer pays” is a disgrace, a travesty, and something that ought to be illegal. It is most definitely just flat wrong on the face of it.
Which does not mean that there aren’t a lot of incompetent service technicians out there. That is a different matter altogether.
Some like to approach these issues on an indivudual basis, others lump everyone together and then there is the view from "ten thouand feet". Poor pay and working conditions is a direct cause of failing to grow and keep qualified technicians, and that means more techs who aren't ready for the front lines have to step into that role.
And then, just for something entirely different, there are the dishonest service departments. Something we have all seen.
If they charged correctly for the work that the vehicle comes in for, then they wouldn't have to go in search of additional services to try and make ends meet. Then again if they really charged correctly, would they have that car showing up in the first place? Think about how much easier it would be for others to under cut them on price if they suddenly doubled their fees.
I'm getting my windshield replaced as we speak, in my driveway, by my friend Troy from Express Auto Glass in Santa Rosa. Gonna stop by one of Guy Fieri's restaurants while you are there
My new Acura TLX has a dual clutch transmission with a torque converter. Sounds quite complex. Has a warranty for 6 years/70k miles. Any thoughts from folks around here about this set up? I don't know how much of this video about 5 things not do do with a DCT applies. I'm not even sure if the TLX has a "wet" or "dry" clutch....
From Acura: "Unlike a conventional automatic, the transmission changes gears though clutches – much more like a manual transmission – rather than simply a torque converter.
The transmission has one clutch for odd-numbered gears (1, 3, 5, 7) and a second for even ones (2, 4, 6, 8). While one clutch is engaged with the current gear, sensors predict whether the next gear change will be an upshift or downshift. The second clutch prepares the next gear ratio for instant engagement with a negligible loss of torque.
Eight gear ratios keep the engine running at or near peak efficiency at nearly all speeds.
Because dual-clutch transmissions have been known to shift roughly (particularly from a stop), we took the unprecedented step of incorporating a torque converter for a smoother launch.
The true performance potential of the 8-Speed DCT is realized by paddle shifters that enable lightning-fast shifts that take only milliseconds versus a typical manual shift of about a half second. This makes lively acceleration out of a turn or engine braking down a mountain road particularly satisfying."
My new Acura TLX has a dual clutch transmission with a torque converter. Sounds quite complex. Has a warranty for 6 years/70k miles. Any thoughts from folks around here about this set up? I don't know how much of this video about 5 things not do do with a DCT applies. I'm not even sure if the TLX has a "wet" or "dry" clutch....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W42zsFYjZvM&t=262s
From Acura: "Unlike a conventional automatic, the transmission changes gears though clutches – much more like a manual transmission – rather than simply a torque converter.
The transmission has one clutch for odd-numbered gears (1, 3, 5, 7) and a second for even ones (2, 4, 6, 8). While one clutch is engaged with the current gear, sensors predict whether the next gear change will be an upshift or downshift. The second clutch prepares the next gear ratio for instant engagement with a negligible loss of torque.
Eight gear ratios keep the engine running at or near peak efficiency at nearly all speeds.
Because dual-clutch transmissions have been known to shift roughly (particularly from a stop), we took the unprecedented step of incorporating a torque converter for a smoother launch.
The true performance potential of the 8-Speed DCT is realized by paddle shifters that enable lightning-fast shifts that take only milliseconds versus a typical manual shift of about a half second. This makes lively acceleration out of a turn or engine braking down a mountain road particularly satisfying."
BMW's DCT has been around for many years now. Search for and read up on that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
The largest percentage of those types are found in Quickie Lube franchises as well as a LOT of other franchise shops. Next in line would be new car dealers, and finally independent shops.AS a matter of fact, when I wrote my monthly automotive column for a local newspaper I advised finding a good dealer service department or indie shop and using them exclusively, as selecting shops on price alone virtually ensured that your car will be serviced by incompetents.
I recently found the file that contains most of those articles, and I'll post excerpts from a couple.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So you replace my timing belt and the tensioner breaks in 10 miles. That's probably your fault. You have to eat this, fix my car, and make things right. Then, afterwards, you can review what the tech did wrong, or failed to notice.
Everybody who works on cars is going to have a bad day. You just have to man up and learn from it. The customer doesn't need a lecture on your struggles. He probably has his own.
Of course, shops have to "fire" some customers now and then--they are cranky, unreasonable, or just plain hustlers.
But trying to cover up a screw-up is a big No No.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Is it costs that prevent companies from using both port and direct injection? Seems like from the video using both solves the problem. And Toyota is apparently already doing that with some of its engines. Maybe Honda and other companies are next?
J.A.
A friends son graduated from an automotive school and went
looking for a new job. A local Chevrolet dealer hired him
for the quick service team at a princely sum of 10 or so
coconuts per hr. After 6 months or so, he wanted to switch
to general repairs in the shop. They agreed and put him on
shop flat rate at the same pay.
My friend advised his son to stick it out for a couple
months and show them what he is capable of. He went back to
the S.M. after 2 successful months and was told that they
couldn't afford to pay him more. He went to another local
dealer and was offered 6 coconuts more than what he was
making.
He went back to his present employer and asked for a
matching raise. They offered to raise his pay by 3 coconuts
only, so he gave a two week notice. He was told that he
couldn't leave as one of the many papers that he signed when
he started working was a Non-Compete agreement. He said
"Good, I'm leaving anyway. I have no money for you to sue
me." After he started his new job, the service manager told
him that his previous employer called them up threatening to
sue for poaching one of their employees. All this for a new
guy just trying to get started in the trade. Bodes well for
the future, doesn't it? Sadly those "incompetents" who given proper training and support could grow to become tomorrow's master technicians no longer work alongside a master technician who could help guide them, double check their work and when necessary teach them how to avoid the common mistakes as well as the not-so common ones. There is no shortage of people both inside and outside of the trade who should shoulder the blame for that, but as I keep saying that doesn't solve the problem it only perpetuates it.
As for fuel, I always ran Top Tier fuels(I run it in all my cars save the Wrangler).
I wasn't seeing any issues with the N55 motor when I worked at BMW, so it gets 10k miles/1 year changes- using BMW 0W-30. Ditto for the naturally aspirated N12 motor in the Clubman.
Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it. As an interesting aside, BMW offers a proprietary chemical valve cleaning that works pretty well. Just about the time I left my dealer was evaluating a similar process offered by Valvoline and my SA has told me it seemed to work really well also. That said, all the hand-wringing over GDI will encourage some dealers/shops to push valve cleaning-non-GDI or not-when in some cases it simply isn't necessary. Luckily, I have a first-rate SA; when I asked him about using the BMW procedure on my non-GDI Club Sport at 140k he said, "You've always run high quality fuel and maintain it obsessively- it's not necessary."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Then, send in an oil sample for at least the first two or three times you change your oil. You can use many providers; I use blackstone-labs.com. Include a TBN (extra $10 at Blackstone) the first couple of times so that you can see how well your oil is buffering acids. The oil analysis will show you how your engine is wearing internally, and it will also provide you feedback on fuel dilution. Once you establish a baseline on the TBN, you don't need to keep ordering those (I use it for determining reasonable OCIs for extended intervals).
Equipped with this information, you can then modify your behavior with the car (OCIs, fuel type/grade, additives, trip frequency and duration, etc.) and with an idea of what results you might expect, as well as being able to continue to see how the oil looks over time (whether doing samples at every OCI or less frequently).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
so what was changed in the N55 that would prevent carbon buildup?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My wife (now ex) had a bigger penchant for fast driving than I do. She presently owns (as a second car, strictly for fun) a ground pounding Camaro. I drove that thing once, it is scary. I would estimate sub 12 second 1/4 mile times. Like I said, maybe flogging the h-e-double-l out of it might have helped.
Back when I owned a Cadillac with the Northstar V8, the Cadillac forums had several master mechanics who stated loud and clear that you needed to (at least occasionally) "drive it like you stole it".
And a large portion of problems are also created by inexperienced service writers.
I have seen some very good techs bail on a dealership to go to another one, because the service writer was not communicating very well with the customers.
And then, on the flip side, you have customers who there is no way to make them happy.
So it gives a new meaning to "customer complaint".
NO!
Not in the real world with a paying customer. The customer is paying for expert professional service. Finding one out of four tires was installed with the word "outside" on the inside of the tire/wheel assembly is simply unacceptable, F grade work.
That was the first direct injection engine I had. Maybe only one, unless my 3L TDI is direct?
If I asked for new wheels these would be the guys mounting tires...that would be self-defeating. I told them to get me new center caps and they did.
I can guarantee that place does a lot of destruction and gets a lot of single-visit customers.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180630/RETAIL05/180709995/ford-car-dealerships-mechanics
Ford helping dealers recruit shop techs
DETROIT — Ford Motor Co. is working to combat a nationwide shortage of body-shop technicians through a new initiative in collaboration with its dealerships.
The automaker said retirements by baby boomers, while young people aren't taught the advantages of a career in skilled trades, have led to a problem properly staffing its dealers' service bays.
Ford cited estimates that the auto industry will need to hire 45,000 technicians a year through 2026. That can directly affect the quality of repair work.
"It speaks to our ability to service customers," Frederiek Toney, president of the global Ford Customer Service Division, told Automotive News. "A dealer's ability to fix it right the first time and get customers in and out in a timely manner is largely dependent on their capacity to do it."
"The technician is the heart and soul of enabling a great experience for customers." Frederiek Toney, Ford.
A poor customer experience could prove costly to an automaker: The Inter-Industry Conference on Auto Collision Repair estimates that, of owners who had a bad experience with a collision repair, two-thirds get rid of their vehicle within a year and 60 percent change vehicle brands.
Ford is hoping to avoid those negative experiences by engaging students through what Toney calls a series of coordinated grass-roots recruiting efforts to add about 5,000 technicians across its network within two years. Ford dealerships currently have about 30,000 technicians to fill 65,000 service bays across the country.
The automaker plans to add "placement specialists" at dealerships to engage with high schools, junior colleges and military bases to connect with students and teach them about vocational careers. Each dealership will be mapped to a particular school, and it will be responsible for sponsoring students by providing tuition and offering summer internships. And Ford plans to donate thousands of current model-year vehicles, as well as engines and powertrain equipment, for students to work on.
"What we want to do inside Ford is to institutionalize these things if we're going to have a sustainable program to be the bedrock of our ability to provide great customer service for our customers," Toney said.
Toney said Ford already has a number of initiatives in place, but it's now bringing them all together.
"If you talk to every dealer, he or she is doing something; getting them engaged is not the problem," Toney said. "We have all these disparate activities that don't tie together in a way that allow us to be efficient and get results. We're now streamlining those efforts into one national program."
Without the still-unnamed program fully in place, Toney says Ford has recruited about 800 to 900 technicians so far this year and hopes to bump that number to 2,500 by the end of the year. Today, about 40 percent of the students Ford sponsors go to work for its dealerships upon graduation. Ford is hoping to improve that number.
"We're helping them recruit more effectively," Toney said. "It's not just attracting them; we need to retain them."
Toney said Ford was spending "an awful lot" on the endeavor but declined to give specifics.
"Dealers have been asking for this sort of support for a long time," he said.
"The technician is the heart and soul of enabling a great experience for customers."
From the article...
"We're helping them recruit more effectively," Toney said. "It's not just attracting them; we need to retain them." Toney said Ford was spending "an awful lot" on the endeavor but declined to give specifics.
There are currently no reports from technicians that Ford is now paying reasonable/achievable warranty labor times that I am aware of.
Abusive people don't stop at the shop. They continue with family and friends.
A good shop supervises all its employees and doesn't give someone a job he/she can't handle.
A good shop owner has the instinct for picking the right people. Sometimes you can just look at a newbie and tell if there's a light on in there.
You have probably heard me say this in here before. I NEVER leave a lot that has touched my wheels, like a PA inspection station or tire place without checking all 5 lug nuts on all 4 wheels. I have found lug nuts over tightened a couple of times and marched back into the desk at tire shops and complained. One time the guy said something like, "why are you checking them. Do you have a torque wrench or what"? My response was, "no I don't have a torque wrench and I don't think you guys have one either".
Totally ignorant of the fact that breakaway torque can easily vary 50% over the tightening torque. I can grab a few more of his quotes if one isn't enough. How does someone know up front exactly where that limit is at? How does a new tech grow and eventually become a master at the trade if he/she isn't given work that will challenge them on a continuing basis? Now we get to the next page. How are we ever going to attract a steady stream of candidates that are bright shining lights if we don't make the career shine bright enough for them to be attracted to it in the first place?
If she is being harassed, then the shop isn't doing it's job making sure good employees stay there. She could be a barista or on a Board of Directors. The same problem might exist.
As for attracting the best and brightest to a career in automotive repair, that answer is very easy:
You pay them a lot of money.
To do that, you charge customers a lot of money and you provide outstanding service that completely outshines your competition.
If you don't strive for excellence, you will be nothing more than part of the pack, where auto repair is drudgery.
Right after WW II, just about everybody jumped into the used car and car repair business---and a healthy portion of these new opportunists were not all that savory. Just page through any car magazine from the 50s and 60s and look at the cartoons or articles: Yep, they are either mocking or warning against repair shop deceptions. Go look--it's informative.
We could say the same of contractors, plumbers and lawyers. It was easy to fleece the public because demand was so high. Boom-Town!
This unsavory reputation has never really gone away. It behooves the modern repair shop to not just sit and wait around for the general public to improve their bad attitude. One can act the martyr, but what happens to martyrs?
Trust must be won these days. It's no coincidence that many new car dealerships are called "stealerships". That doesn't come from mindless paranoia.
It is true that with the complexity of modern cars, the average car owner who has been "informed" by a consumer advocate is, at best, half-informed or, at worst, badly informed. Nonetheless, this is the only defense he has.
Many shops do not deceive, but they do up-sell. Sometimes the up-sell is actually a good thing--preventive maintenance is often justified.
Nonetheless, it's up to the repair shop to disarm the customer.
People WILL pay, and pay well, for good service and a high level of competence. So what if your shop loses the bottom-feeders? Do you really want that type of customer anyway?
In my neck of the woods, highly skilled, affable (well sort of affable), clean, efficient and friendly repair shops have more business than they know what to do with. And with that success comes pressure--to run a thriving business takes a LOT of work that doesn't even involve cars per se.
Ironically, at $150 an hour, the indie shops in my area are not only outperforming the dealerships, they are undercutting them on the cost of repairs. We now have the somewhat ludicrous situation of dealers sending repair work to the indie shops.
We have a lot of specialty shops in CA, and I think developing a specialty is the way for indie shops to survive and even thrive.
It's getting near impossible for a general repair shop to work error-free on 20 different makes of car.
But if you work on the same or similar cars, day after day, you get pretty darn good at it.
Both shops provide excellent service at a reasonable price- which is why I've patronized them since the mid '80s.
These days I wouldn't be inclined to go to a shop that advertises that they service all makes and models.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Some stuff he'll farm out or just refer.
So I have a network of perhaps 5 different shops. I'd sooner shoot myself than go to the dealer.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My "network" consists of a Porsche/Audi shop, an auto glass specialist, Brakes and Mufflers, Subaru, Saab & Volvo, BMW, smog certification, and an RV place. Many of these people plan to retire within 5-10 years. I used to have connections to tires and car audio and a big used car operation, but those are all gone now.
I remember when cassette decks were common well into the CD era by OEM carmakers.
GM has announced changes in their diagnostic time approach.
As previously announced in GlobalConnect Message
GCUS-9-5742, GM is making several
improvements to the way Dealers are paid for Technician
diagnostic time. These changes are a result of listening to
your feedback and modifying our processes. Effective with
job cards dated July 1, 2018, GM is pleased to announce the
following changes:
• Increase diagnostic allowances from 0.3 hour maximum
to up to 1.0 hour based on
actual time spent by the technician, impacting over 1,100
select labor operations involving electrical and module
diagnosis
• Increase to the R1234YF refrigerant evacuation and
recovery time allowance from 0.5 to
1.2 hours, enabling thorough and accurate diagnosis and
repair, leading to higher customer satisfaction and reduced
comebacks by fixing vehicles right the first time
• In cases requiring more diagnostic time than typical
Warranty Diagnostic Time, dealers
should utilize Other Labor Hours (OLH)
• Variable diagnostic time is no longer required on 93
labor operations involving trim and
incandescent bulbs. If additional labor time is needed on
these items, dealers should follow the current OLH process
The additional labor allowance should be used with the
understanding that not all claims need a full hour of
diagnosis time. Technician cause and correction comments
must support the diagnostic steps and repair performed. GM
will now require any amount submitted in the Labor Diagnosis
Time field be supported with separate on/off punch times.
This applies to all job cards dated on/after July 1 .
Service Management authorization is not required. GM will
continue to verify Job Cards for accuracy and compliance.
All labor time allowance enhancements will be reflected in
the July 1, 2018, Labor Time Guide publication. Service
Management should announce these changes to Technicians and
Warranty Administrators, covering punch time requirements
and proper claim submission. Additional communication will
follow, providing several examples of how to apply the
diagnosis time and how it impacts existing requirements.
Additional training will be available as part of the July
Emerging Issues broadcast.
It's not perfect but it's a move in the right direction.
My father was a mechanic, I spent more than a few hours around a dealership service department when I was young. Insurance didn’t run the world then, and it was possible for a kid to hang around. We lived out in the country, and I would often after school walk down to the dealership where my father worked and hang out with him until he got off work.
My younger brother followed in that trade, and worked in dealerships for many years. For a short while he was the service director at a new car dealership. I think that job is what drove him to drink, but that’s a different story.
My point is, I do have some experience from both sides of this debate. And yes, “factory pays” being much lower than what “customer pays” is a disgrace, a travesty, and something that ought to be illegal. It is most definitely just flat wrong on the face of it.
Which does not mean that there aren’t a lot of incompetent service technicians out there. That is a different matter altogether.
And then, just for something entirely different, there are the dishonest service departments. Something we have all seen.
Do I have the answers? No. But there are many sides to this argument.
Interesting thing is that when we took out the replacement windshield, installed by the dealer who sold me the car (I insisted on a new windshield even though it was a used car)--Troy pointed out what a crappy job they did.
What's really interesting is the pains they took to cobble it up--aside from putting the glue in the wrong place, they re-glued little plastic clips rather than replacing them, left out grommets, and cracked both the anchoring pedestals on both sides of the exterior trim. They basically massacred it.
I always noticed wind noise and an occasional leak, and just blamed Mini instead of the people who did the install work last time.
The weirdest thing is that they actually installed a factory windshield while cheaping out on everything else.
Crazy.
I had the dealer install my windshield and they did a first-rate job.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Gonna stop by one of Guy Fieri's restaurants while you are there
From Acura: "Unlike a conventional automatic, the transmission changes gears though clutches – much more like a manual transmission – rather than simply a torque converter.
The transmission has one clutch for odd-numbered gears (1, 3, 5, 7) and a second for even ones (2, 4, 6, 8). While one clutch is engaged with the current gear, sensors predict whether the next gear change will be an upshift or downshift. The second clutch prepares the next gear ratio for instant engagement with a negligible loss of torque.
Eight gear ratios keep the engine running at or near peak efficiency at nearly all speeds.
Because dual-clutch transmissions have been known to shift roughly (particularly from a stop), we took the unprecedented step of incorporating a torque converter for a smoother launch.
The true performance potential of the 8-Speed DCT is realized by paddle shifters that enable lightning-fast shifts that take only milliseconds versus a typical manual shift of about a half second. This makes lively acceleration out of a turn or engine braking down a mountain road particularly satisfying."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S