A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

isellhondas

And Ill bet you have a whole lot more tools that aren't on that truck.

Just be careful where you park it. A friend of mine got his truck broken into recently and he had several thousand
dollars of tools ripped off!

thecardoc3

Michaell said:

If labor becomes scarce, won't wages go up?

This post from a technician in the iATN describes what is going on at the dealer level.

The area I'm working in, close to XXXXXXXXXXXXX, has quite a
few dealers. Two of the nearest dealers, good sized shops,
have been referring work to us. One dealer is sending us
engine work as they have no heavy line techs still working
for them. The other is sending us transmission work as they
cannot find any transmission techs willing to repair
transmissions for the short labor times that G.M. pays.

This includes both CP and warranty jobs. Many of the older
techs are retiring or moving on and the remaining techs are
too savvy to take on heavy line or transmission work that
does not pay even the time spent on the job and is risky as
a comeback can be disastrous. G.M. and it's dealers are
starting to reap what they have been sowing.

James A.

Michaell said:

If wages go up, won't that attract more folks into the business?

Wages would have to go up substantially and how can anyone do that with all of the negative press that the trade has been subjected to for as long as I can remember? For wages to go up the businesses prices have to rise accordingly. Meanwhile there are many older shops who have struggled through who have managed to carve a niche that they can maintain without raising their prices. These shops simply learn to pass on stuff that they find out that they cannot handle and do just what they need to in order to survive. What's even worse is with no real retirement, they will work until the day that they simply cannot any longer without investing anything into the business and then one day just cease to exist. That unfortunately means the majority of them aren't going away any time soon.

There are shops that are for sale all over the country with little to no interested parties, and even when tech wants to make that step he/she quite often has nothing saved up to pull out of the bank and give it a try. To add insult to injury most of the shops that do sell are usually bought by people who have never been in the trade and they have no experience actually doing the work. They quickly get in over their heads and the techs that do try to work for them find no real changes that enhance their careers.

The trade is facing challenges that there just aren't answers for. The never ending march of technology and the costs to train and tool up to meet it. The idea that consumers can just Google and find the answer to their vehicle issue which while it doesn't work all of the time does work enough to drain potential revenues for the shops even if it simply strips the gravy off of the job and then only presents with the most difficult part of the work
to be dealt with by the shop.

Shops still exist by the combination of labor fees and parts profit and we have an entire industry now set up on line and in parts stores where the consumer can purchase parts for at least the same price the shops can acquire them if not for less. That one alone has to force the shop labor rates higher if they aren't selling parts and what you find is the ones marking time that can tolerate that revenue loss do so and win the day as they continue to drag everything and everyone else with them on the race to the bottom. You have to also look at this and realize that "consumer experts" praise that kind behavior and they do anything but praise the talent, skills and commitment to excellence along with the inherent costs of a shop/tech rising to the challenge of advancing technologies.

If we could address and solve the reasons that the trade is in a death spiral inside of ten years and start attracting the people that it really needs it would still be another ten to twenty more years before they are truly the techs that you need them to be. That same person can be a fully certified electrician in less than five years.

Oh, I forgot to mention, underlying all of this a car is still by design a depreciating asset.

Mr_Shiftright

As cars become more complex, owners will have no choice but to pay higher shop rates. If the auto repair business is in a death spiral, then DIY is certainly not going to take up the slack.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

As cars become more complex, owners will have no choice but to pay higher shop rates.

What if they don't have that choice? Higher rates suggest that a shop is in it for the long term and they are investing for that future. If someone only has to make it until 2025, or 2030 they have every right to try and get there by any means and if that equals pulling labor rates down because they are competeing via price then that is what they will do. Oh and they will be (are) praised for doing so.

Mr_Shiftright said:

If the auto repair business is in a death spiral, then DIY is certainly not going to take up the slack.

This isn't new. There is nothing to pick up the slack now. Just look at the dead battery threads and realize that a properly trained and equipped technician can solve any one of those. But nobody wants to pay him/her to take the time that is necessary to do it. Everytime the solution is to get rid of the car the manufacturers and dealers win so why should they really want someone who can figure the problem out and fix it?

Mr_Shiftright

Well if shops cut their rates to money-grubbing levels and slit each other's throats, then yeah, welcome to capitalism at its ugliest-- automotive technician as pit bull in the arena. It's pretty sad.

I don't see dentists or lawyers cutting their rates just because life is more complex. People pony up and pay.

0patience

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well if shops cut their rates to money-grubbing levels and slit each other's throats, then yeah, welcome to capitalism at its ugliest-- automotive technician as pit bull in the arena. It's pretty sad.

I don't see dentists or lawyers cutting their rates just because life is more complex. People pony up and pay.

Or, as is happening here, the indy shops are folding. Currently, in my area, there are more dealerships, than indy shops.
Who'd a thunk it?
Which makes it tough for someone like me, who handles a fleet.
My primary work is heavy fleet and equipment, but the sedans, pickups and light fleet is still my responsibility, so those often get farmed out to shops.

The problem is, 20 years ago, there were plenty of indy shops and dealers to go around.
Now, there is less than 15 indy shops in the area.
Of those, 1/3 are what I consider "hole in the wall" shops.
The shops who are basically someone's garage.

When you are talking the area of 3 towns, that isn't a lot.
And even at that, those shops are crying for auto techs.

As was said, until the auto industry steps up and starts paying the wages that will attract younger people, in 5 years, the industry will be in trouble.

But, I do think that it will take something extreme for the industry to change and WyoTech could be the first indication of a pending disaster.

Mr_Shiftright

Auto mechanics don't "work with their hands" anymore. They work with their heads. If you want a high level of human intelligence operating in your industry, you have to pay for it.

Factory squeezes Dealer, Dealer squeezes techs. It's a terrible system.

andres3

A good shop would hire well, train well, and take care of their employees well, generating loyalty so they stay for the long term. How did the "independent contractor" mentality come about for Techs? Is it hard to hire well? I'm not saying good help isn't hard to find, but if you put in the effort, can't you avoid hiring a dud?

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes the tech is well-trained but isn't a good fit for the shop. I've seen this happen in my friends' various shops.

thecardoc3

I've been presenting a series of classes of late for professional techs that enhances their ability to do diagnostics. These classes are along the lines of the more advanced samples that I have shared over the last few years. Stuff like using the digital oscilloscope combined with current probes and pressure transducers on top of advanced critical thinking skills. Training at this level requires a serious commitment from the shop and especially by the technician both in class and at home in the evenings by being engaged in self training exercises. It's also really important that the shop allows the techs to take the time that is required to work this way as they build their skills which includes charging for it appropriately. This kind of knowledge and experience produces technicians that are more efficient and accurate in not just their diagnostic abilities but their actual repair capabilities as well. That means they take less time to do the same work once it is mastered.

The top technicians in every location that classes like these are presented always show up. Then you have the ones who need this kind of training more than anyone else and go figure, they aren't interested and never show up. In many cases these are the ones who don't know that these kinds of routines exist let alone are used.

BTW. Training at this level is way more advanced than anything manufacturers and dealers have to offer.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Auto mechanics don't "work with their hands" anymore. They work with their heads. If you want a high level of human intelligence operating in your industry, you have to pay for it.

Factory squeezes Dealer, Dealer squeezes techs. It's a terrible system.

I once knew a tech who was as good as it gets! He was a wizard at everything he touched and he ran circles around the best dealership guys. But, alas, he was also a Prima Donna. And I know you know exactly what I'm talking about. He went from shop to shop. He would dazzle them for a few months and then his attitude would start to show. Late to work, didn't get along you know the type. he was finally blackballed and he moved away.

Mr_Shiftright

It's a stressful job, whether you have your own shop or work for someone else. You can have very very bad days in auto repair.

thecardoc3

isellhondas said:

I once knew a tech who was as good as it gets! He was a wizard at everything he touched and he ran circles around the best dealership guys. But, alas, he was also a Prima Donna.

I've met a number of techs around the country who got to carry that label. But they were not ones who would show up late to work, no matter what there was no excuse for that. The techs I'm talking about would routinely turn 2X to 2.5X hours on normal work with NO MISTAKES and then be asked if not expected to bail the shop out for no pay when another tech was in over their head on some diagnostic or repair. What was even worse than that was when they weren't paid an equivalent scale (if at all) when they had to do diagnostics when compared to what they could earn when doing much simpler work. Often times it was wanting more money for the diagnostic work as to why the label was affixed. It's really sad when you think about it and realize what was really wrong is the shop owners didn't know how to or just simply refused to charge correctly for it. Then there was the constant belittling that every tech was for some reason is expected to tolerate that the "Prima Donnas" somehow felt should have been behind them and would grow to object to. Comments like "Your supposed to be a master technician, I can't pay you to learn how to work on someone's car" when in reality walking up to something a given tech has never seen before is normal,. there are just too many different things out there to know even a tenth of them in advance no matter how experienced, intelligent, or how much studying one does.

isellhondas said:

And I know you know exactly what I'm talking about. He went from shop to shop. He would dazzle them for a few months and then his attitude would start to show.

The techs often reported owners who made promises of Nirvana when they were really overseeing another purgatory. That's were the monikor of ESO came from. (Evil Shop Owner)

isellhondas said:

Late to work, didn't get along you know the type. he was finally blackballed and he moved away.

Likely a win on both of those two sides of the triangle, but just what did it do for the custmoer on the remainig side?

isellhondas

Yes, I've seen that too. Those guys usually hop from shop to shop feeling that they are mistreated and they often are. I wouldn't put these techs in the Prima Donna category!

0patience

There is one thing I always tell young techs.
No matter how good you are or think you are, there is always someone better.
And there is always things changing that you don't know.

The key to being a good tech is being smart enough to know when you aren't smart enough.
Knowing where to find the information and who to call when there is something out of your realm.

And remembering that once you know how the system works, you can then understand why it isn't working.

A few months ago, a shop tech took credit for something I figured out. One of the other field techs called me, cause he knew I was involved in it and we had gone over it at length and was pretty mad.
I told him that most of the field techs knew where the info came from and if he felt the need to take the credit for it to make himself feel better, I'm ok with that.

Techs who come off as prima donnas have a confidence and self image problem.
They feel the need to prove themselves.
My question is, if you are as good as you think you are, why do you need to prove it?
Your work, your co-workers opinions and your ethics should speak for themselves.

Just my opinion.

thecardoc3

Watch this video and listen to the comments at the end about how this lets the dealer employ "lower wage technicians". Do you think the ever growing shortage of qualified technicians is important to them?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180215/VIDEO/302199994/honda-stores-push-to-pull-cars-through-service

Mr_Shiftright

Well he's talking about oil change guys, not qualified techs. They aren't doing diagnostics.

So welcome to capitalism. The worker adds labor value, gets paid some of that value back but the owner keeps the lion's share of what the worker made valuable, even after paying off his costs. The split is not equitable at all for the value added.

isellhondas

" Even after paying off his costs" Be careful here. Overheard is a KILLER and it's getting worse all of the time!

Yeah, these are lube techs who do the quick and easy stuff like lubes, rotations filters and measure brake pads.

The techs get the tough jobs and sometimes they pay well and other times not. It can be a dam tough way to make a living especially in the wrong shop!

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well he's talking about oil change guys, not qualified techs. They aren't doing diagnostics.

Those positions are supposed to help acclimate and groom future technicians, what they are doing is creating another dead end job essentially blocking the career path.

Mr_Shiftright

Wellllll....i"m not so sure about THAT. I don't think this was designed as an apprentice program--at least I didn't get that idea from the video. I think the intention was to create a dead-end job.

This dealer wants to compete with indy shops and quik-lubes. So the faster tech services and TV screenings take care of competing with the indy shops and the fast-lane lube racks take care of competing with quik-lube places.

I thought the TV screens were a pretty good idea, although they could be used just as easily to fool as to instruct.

If you aren't technically savvy, you don't really know what you're looking at, as a customer. What might appear *serious* could in fact be trivial. So I"m a bit skeptical about this.

kyfdx

The worst part about the "free" service with Toyota? None of the lube techs can handle any other problem.

So, you have a new car... with some niggling issues, and you think, I'll just wait a month until my scheduled service appointment. You drop it off for the oil change and tire rotation, and say, "Can you have someone check the clutch? The pedal seems to take a long time to engage, like if a hydraulic hose was crimped." Sorry, you'll have to make a service appointment. Our lube techs can only do the factory paid service.

So, the problem isn't really the lube techs, I guess. It's that getting your car in for regular service, doesn't really mean anyone is checking anything other than what you do weekly, when you fill up. It's exactly the opposite of what happens at the BMW dealer. (or, any other dealer where you pay for your scheduled maintenance).

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Wellllll....i"m not so sure about THAT. I don't think this was designed as an apprentice program--at least I didn't get that idea from the video. I think the intention was to create a dead-end job.

This dealer wants to compete with indy shops and quik-lubes. So the faster tech services and TV screenings take care of competing with the indy shops and the fast-lane lube racks take care of competing with quik-lube places.

I thought the TV screens were a pretty good idea, although they could be used just as easily to fool as to instruct.

If you aren't technically savvy, you don't really know what you're looking at, as a customer. What might appear *serious* could in fact be trivial. So I"m a bit skeptical about this.

Look at the television monitor Mrs. Jones....see that shiny thing? That's your transmission...it needs to be flushed"

thecardoc3

isellhondas said:

Look at the television monitor Mrs. Jones....see that shiny thing? That's your transmission...it needs to be flushed"

Customer "Oh, now that you mention it I forget to tell you that it takes ten to twenty seconds to go into gear on cold mornings"

Quick Lube advisor "Sorry you'll have to make an appointment with the repair shop for that"

Customer "Well it's been flushed two times in the last year, do you think that will fix it this time"?

thecardoc3

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/50412/subaru/forester/2018-forester-with-6-000-miles-2-dead-batteries-dealership-cant-find-problem#latest

The dealership has had the car 3 days, wants to keep it for another week and say they can't locate the problem. A brand new car and I have told them I can't trust it and want a full refund...to which they replied, that's not as simple as you might think! I have just read 8 pages of the same issue other customers are having. Why isn't Subaru doing anything about this issue???

Maybe if the dealer was more interested in having people trained and equipped to solve problems like this and paid them correctly for doing so instead of worrying about competing with Quick Lubes.......

Mr_Shiftright

No reason he can't do both. I think you are setting up a kind of false dichotomy here. doc.

thecardoc3

I would love it if you were right, but unfortunately know otherwise. The "leaders" who push that cheap and fast services don't know what it takes to grow a qualified technician and are too focused on gross dollars to care. They deserve nothing less than to have vehicle  owners like the 2018 Subaru one routinely told as much.

thecardoc3

A letter to the editor at Automotive News.....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180219/RETAIL05/180209805/industrys-bitter-pill

Industry's bitter pill

The writer of a December letter to the editor seemed to imply that young people should flock to become service
technicians if they are not in tune with four years of college. For her and thousands of other fixed ops managers
and dealers who think like her, here is the reality pill that everyone just wants to spit out.

I am a former dealership fixed ops manager as well as a human relations professional and dealership recruiter
with more than 20 years’ experience. Many career opportunities await young workers who opt out of getting a
four-year degree.

Here are just a few examples of industries whose companies approach me looking to poach our techs: railroads,
trucking, utilities and oil. These jobs pay well and offer full benefits, including health insurance and
retirement plans.

What these jobs don’t have: roller-coaster pay weeks because of flat-rate pay plans, bills for $30,000 to $50,000 for education if techs want an associate’s degree, and another $30,000 to $50,000 in tool expenses.

Today’s work force is avoiding our industry like Ebola. There are solutions, but they are bitter pills that
automakers and the industry do not want to swallow.

JOE HENRY, Owner, ACT Auto Staffing, Palm Harbor, Fla.

Mr_Shiftright

All true but Mr. Henry leaves out the fact that unlike the other industries he mentioned, at an auto dealership you can work close to home and in a town of your choosing.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

All true but Mr. Henry leaves out the fact that unlike the other industries he mentioned, at an auto dealership you can work close to home and in a town of your choosing.

Probably a bit of a minor consolation! Hahaha

Mr_Shiftright

Well if the author is right and the industries poaching potential auto technicians are in the railroad, trucking or oil industry, that's not going to appeal to a lot of people who already have young families.

0patience

thecardoc3 said:

Here are just a few examples of industries whose companies approach me looking to poach our techs: railroads,
trucking, utilities and oil. These jobs pay well and offer full benefits, including health insurance and
retirement plans.
.

This is all true.
Oil industry is actively recruiting heavy/diesel techs for places like North Dakota and Alaska.
Utility companies can't keep tech positions filled.
Railroad companies and govt are actively seeking to fill heavy/diesel techs.
Trucking/construction/logging companies in my area are always looking for heavy/diesel techs and regularly talk with automotive techs about making the transition. Especially if they show talent.

Most of these offer full benefits. There are a few exceptions, but most of those companies that don't offer full benefits can't get or keep techs.

I have seen many automotive techs make the move to construction/trucking companies, because it is often quite a bit more money. Add to that overtime and benefits and it makes it far more appealing than automotive.

thecardoc3

Consumers better think twice before they buy a Chrysler product.

http://kb.dcctools.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=565

andres3

thecardoc3 said:

Consumers better think twice before they buy a Chrysler product.

http://kb.dcctools.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=565

Think twice, I don't have to think once to avoid that mess. I'd have to be on some serious drugs to even consider thinking about buying a Chrysler product again in this lifetime.

qbrozen

thecardoc3 said:

Consumers better think twice before they buy a Chrysler product. http://kb.dcctools.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=565

I don't understand. What I just read at that link tells me nothing about Chrysler products. What am I missing?

guitarzan

I'm going to make a guess: That site supports Chrysler diagnostics? The forum is going away so sharing of diagnostic information is going away, thus consumers of those cars are at risk of not getting a solution. How did I do?

qbrozen

Maybe. But it does state there is a new knowledge base. Seems like they are simply changing the name.

Besides, how many consumers are even thinking "gee, I wonder if this car has an online knowledge base to diagnose it..."? My guess? 0.01%

thecardoc3

That site was our direct access to Chryslers service information and factory tool purchases.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

Maybe. But it does state there is a new knowledge base.

There is a new site and its access is limited to owners of the newest scan tool.

To view all articles, please access the KB via the wiTECH 2.0 menu.
Thank you,

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

Maybe. But it does state there is a new knowledge base.

There is a new site and its access is limited to owners of the newest scan tool.

To view all articles, please access the KB via the wiTECH 2.0 menu.
Thank you,

guitarzan

They are acting as extortionists? Hilarious. Sad. I suppose it is expected. Hrm what is the motivation? Perhaps bringing repairs back to their dealers? Taking lessons from BMW? Such a mediocre brand will find out that not everyone can do this and survive, despite the big grin on the VPs faces when someone suggested, "Here is how we will increase profit!"

kyfdx

I don't think it's unusual that a business would have to upgrade it's technology as time goes on.

andres3

kyfdx said:

I don't think it's unusual that a business would have to upgrade it's technology as time goes on.

Sort of like how my Calculus Textbooks always needed a new edition every year in college. Because Calculus keeps changing since it was first discovered and invented

Mr_Shiftright

Well it doesn't "change" so much as it is amplified, right?----much like automotive tech. An engine today still runs on the same physical principles that it did in 1900.

0patience

Automotive is headed the way of heavy trucks and equipment for diagnostic tools.
If you don't update them, they quit working.
If you don't have internet access, they can't communicate with their central server and they quit working.
If you don't pay the annual license subscription, they quit working.
And companies like CAT and John Deere don't even want outside shops or fleets having their software.

thecardoc3

Now we are Ninjas?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20180416/RETAIL05/180419952/1434

From the article...

Several times each year, Nissan invites master dealership technicians to Smyrna to see how the Tech Line and last line team work. There are plant visits and a tour of Nissan's consumer affairs call center, where agents field customer comments.

Nissan calls the program Corporate Immersion with Technical Information Exchange Shadowing, or CITIES. Its goal is to show dealership technicians how best to use Nissan's diagnosis and repair processes.

"We are trying to show them we are here to help them," says Jackson Hisey, the manager of Tech Line. "We are not teaching them how to fix a car. We are not teaching them how to measure something.

There is a dark side to that comment. When the techs don't exercise critical thinking skills for themselves, and truly learn all of the aspects of their career they end up where they have to have someone else tell them what to replace. In other words solving the vehicle problem at hand is important, but the techs need to learn how to make the measurements, and they need to learn how to fix the car without this kind of help.

"We are teaching them that they have resources behind them," Hisey says. "And that we care. A lot of times, a tech thinks the factory doesn't care -- that we are just trying to take money out of their pockets. We're not. We're in the fight with them."

Except that is exactly what they ARE doing, taking money out of the tech's pocket while simultaneously placing barriers to personal growth for the technicians.

Finally, the last line team identifies what's wrong with the Pathfinder: a slipping clutch in the transmission. The dealership tech will replace the transmission and ship the faulty component to Smyrna.
Nissan engineers will put the bad transmission in a vehicle, test it and then disassemble it. They will look for a cause: possibly a supplier's faulty part or a manufacturing error.

They don't see this as a loss for the technician. What was really learned here? The next car that demonstrates the "same symptom" doesn't have to be the same problem.

While last line members puzzle over the problematic Pathfinder, 10-year master technician Matthew Mead fields a Tech Line request from Russ Darrow Nissan of Milwaukee. A new, diesel-powered Titan XD is displaying a slew of trouble codes. A warning light shows the diesel exhaust fluid to be low, even though the tank is full.

Mead exchanges notes with the dealership tech, reviews the truck's diagnostic data and examines reports of similar problems. In about 45 minutes, he identifies the problem: a faulty fuse.

That should have people scratching their heads, a call for help to the tech line and then forty-five minutes to diagnose a fuse issue? I can see how a tech can struggle to solve that little problem from time to time and it starts with the service information and how it is written. When schematics are drawn in such a way that show fuses connecting to a black box but leaves a complete mystery as to the path of current flow from there, issues like that can arise. What the article fails to report is that the dealer tech got paid .2hrs for the diagnostic time. That would include the time attempting the diagnostic on his/her own, the time with the first line tech assist line and then the time with the Ninjas........

Meanwhile a tech who has gotten to learn how to diagnose correctly key's right into this statement from the last quote. "displaying a slew of trouble codes" Trouble codes don't tell you what part is bad, they are the identification number of a test that the module runs that has failed. The first stage of the diagnostics isn't following a flow chart it is getting into the service information and figuring out how exactly the module ran the tests. Do that for several of the "slew" of codes and usually a pattern can be discovered and the tech can then go straight at the problem with no outside help required. However, it takes longer than .2hrs to do that and dare I say less than forty five minutes. But the tech that can do that can and should demand a good wage or else strike out on his/her own. This isn't anything new BTW, it's been going on for decades.

Now does the shortage of qualified techs make a little more sense?

Mr_Shiftright

You may be behind the cutting edge here Doc, although I know you pride yourself on keeping up with the latest technology.

But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.

What if I challenge you this way:

You want to keep all the knowledge you need in your...well...head. Your brain case.

But what if you kept some of it outside your head--in your "other brain"---the Cloud Brain.

Maybe humans can't expand their brains anymore to take in all the complexities of modern life + knowledge needed for work + the speed with which all this is occurring.

Our heads can't grow any larger to evolve more brain matter. If our heads got too big, we couldn't be born.

Yeah, I'm only half serious here, but it is HALF serious. Maybe there's too much for one guy/gal to know anymore to do their job successfully.

After all, what is the difference between keeping a fact in your head and keeping it somewhere where you can do get it?

What if there was this BIG SMART CARDOC, who was actually a machine, and "he" guided you step by step on how to approach and repair something?

Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

You may be behind the cutting edge here Doc, although I know you pride yourself on keeping up with the latest technology.

But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.

What if I challenge you this way:

You want to keep all the knowledge you need in your...well...head. Your brain case.

But what if you kept some of it outside your head--in your "other brain"---the Cloud Brain.

Maybe humans can't expand their brains anymore to take in all the complexities of modern life + knowledge needed for work + the speed with which all this is occurring.

Our heads can't grow any larger to evolve more brain matter. If our heads got too big, we couldn't be born.

Yeah, I'm only half serious here, but it is HALF serious. Maybe there's too much for one guy/gal to know anymore to do their job successfully.

After all, what is the difference between keeping a fact in your head and keeping it somewhere where you can do get it?

What if there was this BIG SMART CARDOC, who was actually a machine, and "he" guided you step by step on how to approach and repair something?

Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.

Jeopardy, too.

The Watson technology from IBM is doing exactly this. Taking collective data and using it to solve complex problems. It's already in use in the healthcare industry; I suspect its footprint will grow to include things like auto repair, eventually.

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

Now we are Ninjas?

I love that term. In my prior job, which I summarily walked out of last year, a certain business manager called our team "ninjas." If the business people wanted a response of "we'll schedule that project within 6 months", they would go to the IT department for a solution. If they wanted data in hours or a couple of days, they would come to our small group. This earned the moniker "ninjas". This is a positive term for people who know their stuff thoroughly and who can quickly react.

thecardoc3 said:

When schematics are drawn in such a way that show fuses connecting to a black box but leaves a complete mystery as to the path of current flow from there, issues like that can arise.

Documentation is lacking in every area of systems. It is usually generated as an afterthought. This is one major thing that should change but never does. Part of this has to do with financial people running companies and having no idea of the impact, as they only see the product rolling off of the production line.

Documentation for me has usually been a black project. I do it in the background, constantly, vigorously. The boss would hate to hear that I am spending any time writing anything up. Then he hires someone new and asks me to pass on a procedure, I hand them a document, I am done. Or a department we are integrating with wants a detailed specification. I whip out the spec and the boss's face looks like he just walked into a surprise birthday party. Documentation was completely thankless from the company side, but infinitely valuable for me personally to just take the initiative.

Documentation: It is critical to quality and service, but management does not understand the need and does not want to pay for it. Weird I say.

guitarzan

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Maybe there's too much for one guy/gal to know anymore to do their job successfully.

What if there was this BIG SMART CARDOC, who was actually a machine, and "he" guided you step by step on how to approach and repair something?

Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.

Jeopardy, too.

The Watson technology from IBM is doing exactly this. Taking collective data and using it to solve complex problems. It's already in use in the healthcare industry; I suspect its footprint will grow to include things like auto repair, eventually.

This is a good point and apropos to these electronics problems. Doc has harped on the fact that when a connection goes bad, then none of the procedures matter because the system is not operating in a known state. We discussed how only an expensive, completely redundant system could detect the root cause. However, you are right, a computer could be programmed to predict the types of issues that occur when the system changes from bad connections.

That said, personally I think the complexity of vehicles has gone way overboard and everyone contributing to it, from the OEM to the consumer, is certifiable. We need to go in reverse and simplify the systems. Otherwise, your "Watson" for telling the tech what is going on should work well.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

You may be behind the cutting edge here Doc, although I know you pride yourself on keeping up with the latest technology.

But let's step back and look at the bigger picture.

What if I challenge you this way:

You want to keep all the knowledge you need in your...well...head. Your brain case.

But what if you kept some of it outside your head--in your "other brain"---the Cloud Brain.

Maybe humans can't expand their brains anymore to take in all the complexities of modern life + knowledge needed for work + the speed with which all this is occurring.

Our heads can't grow any larger to evolve more brain matter. If our heads got too big, we couldn't be born.

Yeah, I'm only half serious here, but it is HALF serious. Maybe there's too much for one guy/gal to know anymore to do their job successfully.

After all, what is the difference between keeping a fact in your head and keeping it somewhere where you can do get it?

What if there was this BIG SMART CARDOC, who was actually a machine, and "he" guided you step by step on how to approach and repair something?

Remember, a machine has already beaten the best chess and poker players in the world.

Let me know when the machine can out drive a race car champion in F1.