A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Mr_Shiftright

If you have a favorite car you plan on keeping for a while, you should start gathering up items that will definitely not be made in the aftermarket, like small interior and exterior trim pieces and of course, little black boxes and instruments clusters.

You should be able to get shocks, brake pads, alternators, radiators, etc for a long time however.

You don't have to worry about engines because quite frankly, if the car is 10 years old, chances are it's not worth replacing an engine---and many new engine short blocks are difficult, if not impossible, to rebuild in the machine shop anymore, as they might not re-bore.

qbrozen

I don't believe I have an unscarred knuckle anymore.

cardoc, I can definitely sympathize with the whole "where the hell did that blood come from" problem.

Mr_Shiftright

some of my friends were worse---one guy had a car on a lift and was prying something with a crowbar and.....you guessed it......right between the eyes. He looked like an alien for about two weeks.

I think most repair shops today are somewhat safer--with better lifts, eye wash stations, cleaner floors and better work habits.

qbrozen

The work habits is where its at and the toughest to change. Hell, I didn't start wearing gloves till the past couple of years. I'm still really really bad with jackstands. I have them close at hand, I'm just of the "well, its a quick easy job" mindset. Dumb, I know.

The worst accident I'm privy to I, fortunately, did not personally witness. It happened to a very nice man who worked for my father for decades, came to the house on many occassions, would send homemade Korean dishes home for us once in a while, etc. He was working on a propane tanker. He missed a step in procedure... he didn't safely purge the tank, and the worst case scenario occurred when he was standing in front of the rear dump valve. He died after about 2 days in the hospital burn unit.

No matter how safe you make the workplace, you can't erase human error.

xwesx

That's just awful. You're right though, when chance goes the wrong way, it goes the wrong way.

Thinking back over the years, there's many times I look back on some of the seemingly innocent stuff I or a sibling (or both!) did and think how close we came to that being the last thing we ever did. I'm sure my list will only grow as time wears on.

Since you mentioned falling trees, last September a tree fell just in front of us on a local trail. I don't think it would have hit her, but my daughter (5) was out in front of us when I heard the distinctive "pop," looked quickly about, saw the tree falling (it was ~6" at the base and about 30' tall, so not huge, but enough to be lethal), and rushed forward to snatch her up and backward. The tree landed about 20' in front of us, so she was probably a good 10' away from the landing site when I snatched her, but still too close for comfort.

I know exactly what you mean about sinking jack stands. I have to deal with that every year if I don't swap out my winter tires early enough. It's always a balance.... keep them on until the roads are mostly dry, but get them off before the ground starts to thaw! :sick:

xwesx

My "favorite" vehicle repair faux pas happened back in early 1995....

I was swapping the running gear from my dad's 1971 Ford Econoline over to the body of the 1969 Econoline I had purchased a few months earlier. The driver side suspension arm did not want to separate from the body mount, so I was "negotiating" with it using a sledge hammer. The problem was I couldn't get to the mount area to hit it from behind, and I couldn't get to the steering knuckle area of the wheel assembly with enough force (inside the wheel well) to make any appreciable difference.

So, I used a little DIY ingenuity stupidity and rigged up an extension out of 2x stock to place the location of the hammer strike outside the wheel well, but directed right where I wanted it. This would have been perfect, and it moved the assembly the first time or two I struck it, but the whole contraption would fall apart each time it was struck, requiring another minute of repositioning before the next strike.

My patience wearing thin, I invited my dad out to help me. I said, "I'm going to hold this 2x4. You strike it on the end with the sledge, and the assembly should pop loose. He was doubtful of our chances, but was game nonetheless, so I held the 2x4 between the assembly and the striking end (this whole thing is about 4' long), closer to the striking end, and he hits it. Promising... the assembly nearly comes out; one more hit should do it.

He rears back, hits it again, and the 2x4 splinters, sending the hammer ricocheting downward with most of its momentum and directly into my right shin. That was quickly followed by the worst pain I have ever felt. So intense, actually, that I was rendered dumb. It took a minute or so before I could say anything, let alone get my wits about me. Adrenaline pumping, I grabbed the hammer and made good on the assembly removal, then proceeded to nurse both my leg and my pride for the next hour or so until I could sort of walk on it again.

My leg didn't break, but it put an appreciable dent in the bone - one that is still there nearly 20 years later! Every time I jumped or ran over the next six months, a sharp pain shot through me. Thankfully, that part went away with time. :sick:

busiris

My dad was a "stickler" for safety, and he ingrained it into me and my brother.

The thing I remember most that he imparted to me is eye protection, and the invaluable utility a $0.99 pair of throw-away goggles can provide.

I know far too many people that didn't have the time to reach for eye protection, but had plenty of time for eye surgery and lost sight.

Even today, when one of the extreme few folks I lend tools to borrows anything that can put an eye out, they leave with a pair of safety glasses, or they leave without the tool.

imidazol97

>I lend tools to borrows anything that can put an eye out, they leave with a pair of safety glasses, or they leave without the tool.

Great idea.

qbrozen

I said, "I'm going to hold this 2x4....

All I could think was "I'll nod my head, and you hit it."

stickguy

back in college, I had a summer job in a warehouse. one of the guys there had a side gig in a garage.

I found out after I was back in school that he had died (was probably in his early 20s at the time). He was using a tire machine, and something went haywire and he was taken out by the tire.

thecardoc3

I had a one ton truck on the alignment rack, I think I was doing a fuel pump on it. At one point I had to move back out from underneath it and I recall falling, and thinking, "Why am I falling?" A few moments latern while still laying on the floor I realized that I had blood running into my right eye, and it was about then that I could feel the pain from hitting my head on the trailor hitch that was sticking out the back. That one left a mark..... :sick:

thecardoc3

There are two possibilities. He either over inflated it trying to force the tire to seat onto the bead, or it suffered a zipper failure. Either way its a violent sidewall failure and sadly it happens a few times a year.

There are a lot of video's on the net that we use for trying to teach young technicians tire safety. Some of them are pretty brutal and gruesome to watch but it drives the message home.

busiris

Two piece truck tire rims were bad about losing the tire retaining ring while being aired up, resulting in the decapitation of the installer. I would never inflate a two piece tire/wheel setup without using a tire cage.

Your story is far more common than you may realize. Lots of tire jockey types have been injured/killed working on two piece rims.

xwesx

Holy ouch! Those things hurt bad enough when you hit your shin on them....

Hahah; just a couple nights ago, I took my plow truck out to clear the neighborhood. Before I fired it, I wanted to disconnect the power steering pump (there's a leak in the system somewhere, so it doesn't hold fluid long and I don't want to burn out the pump) and check the oil level. In order to open the hood, I have to bang down on it with my fist while pulling the hood release in the grille.

Well, it was dark, and (subsequently) I had a flashlight in my hand, but that didn't register until after I slammed that hand down on the hood. It took a minute or two for the pain to register, and a little while longer to realize why the knuckle on my thumb hurt so bad.

It's still difficult to bend that joint! Autopilot....

roadburner

If you have a favorite car you plan on keeping for a while, you should start gathering up items that will definitely not be made in the aftermarket

One of my friends used to work in a BMW dealership's parts department; he owned a 1995 E36/5 very similar to mine(only much more exclusive). Anyway, a few years ago he shot me an e-mail telling me that a multifunction switch used only on the E36/5 was NLA in Germany and only five were left in the US. I immediately called my dealer and ordered one. Needless to say, the original switch is working just fine- and probably will continue to do so as long as I still have the spare... :P

thecardoc3

Needless to say, the original switch is working just fine- and probably will continue to do so as long as I still have the spare...

Yep, that's how that works. I think its part of "Murphy's Law".

thecardoc3

As a young technician I can recall many times a vehicle came in that had multiple failures. Basically the car had a problem but it wasn't real bad so they kept driving it, then another one developed, and yet they still didn't get it fixed. Then another one, and another one until it finally reached a point where they didn't have a choice, it had to be repaired.

First question, which problem is the one that finally caused them to bring the car in? Second question, how do reliably you see past an obvious isssue? Lets say the spark is leaking out of the plug wires, that's a misfire. How much additional testing would anyone expect the tech to do?

If the tech would try and do more testing, it would usually get very subjective, and no-one wanted to pay for it. Should the compression be tested at that time? Normally yes, but we got in trouble if we did because the shop couldn't or wouldn't charge for the time to do it. But inevitably eventually the tech would have a car that did lose compression, but they didn't know that until they took care of the spark leak problem and then still had a misfire. Then of course the tech was wrong again for not testing the compression, never mind the fact that the tech would have been wrong if he had.

One of the big problems back then was we didn't have much of a way to document what we did. Today we (I) document everything and we have ways of testing such as using a pressure transducer for measuring a cylinders compression under different phases of operation. On my blog Autotechtitude, you will see an example of how techs were treated in the past, only this was by another shop just today. What he didn't know is that I had proof that the exhaust was restricted, and with a mechanical issue like that you have to deal with it before anything else can be reliably found and repaired. It's guys like him that drive good techs out of the trade. Check out the post and the wave forms.

stever

document everything

That might be a way to educate consumers about your business. Instead of saying "replaced 02 sensor" you could go though the whole laundry list of how the problem was described, what steps were taken to diagnose the problem, the fix applied and how the car drove on the road test. Include the scan readouts.

Some will get clued in. Others will just think you're padding the bill, lol.

thecardoc3

I'm glad you think that's funny. Just this morning I saw where a neighboring "shop" is putting a Check Engine Light "29.95" on a street sign. They don't have any equipment, never attend any training, no certifications and have been relying on existing shops for anything that the simple pull a code and toss a part (or two or three) failed to fix the car. The guy used to drive a truck and always wanted to run a shop so he finally opened one. He's been pulling everything down ever since.

IMO he only stayed open because of the support from the better shops, I hope they see the light and let him fail on his own.

andre1969

Basically the car had a problem but it wasn't real bad so they kept driving it, then another one developed, and yet they still didn't get it fixed. Then another one, and another one until it finally reached a point where they didn't have a choice, it had to be repaired.

I just had something similar to that happen to my 2000 Park Ave Ultra. Last Friday night, the check engine light came on and it started shifting funny. My first fear was oh crap, it needs a new transmission. To be safe, I didn't drive it anymore, except to get it to my mechanic. And, wouldn't you know, on the way there, it behaved fairly well, although the light was still on. I'll admit, I did have the passing thought of why not just keep driving it for awhile, as it seems fine. But, I wanted to get it fixed, before it got worse!

Well, it turns out there was nothing wrong at all with the transmission. It turns out there were four different things that triggered that check engine light. There was something called a Mass Air Flow sensor that had gone bad, that was the real expensive thing. But there were some other things...I want to say some kind of solenoid? And some vacuum canister? So, all that stuff got replaced, along with cleaning out the throttle body, and other minor odds and ends. Plus an oil change. Total bill came out to around $1186.

Maybe some people would gripe about it, but I'm glad that the mechanic went through and did all that stuff at once. Some of the previous mechanics I've gone to would have just replaced whatever they thought was the most obvious component, called me up and said my car's all ready to go, and then it would probably act up on the way home, or the next day, and have to go back in the shop again.

I'd rather have the $1186 bill all at once, and only make one trip to the mechanic, rather than have a $400 bill here, a $300 bill there, another $400 bill a bit later, and so on.

stever

Well, if you market to the bottom feeders, you'll get them. With all the attendant problems that come with them, including bounced checks. Maybe you should raise your price. Then people may say you're expensive, but worth it.

I dunno Andre; sounds like your mechanic was just throwing parts at it.

thecardoc3

I dunno Andre

You should have stopped before you exceeded the limits of your knowledge and experience.

; sounds like your mechanic was just throwing parts at it

Based on what? Did you watch him/her do the work? Did you pull the codes and perform the diagnostics? Nothing that Andre wrote appears abnormal. By suggesting anything else, without a genuine reason to you make the bottom feeders more viable.

Maybe you should raise your price. Then people may say you're expensive, but worth it.

Now we are back to build it and they will come......
And we aren't even close to being expensive by national averages....

imidazol97

On the H-bodies, the MAF sensors need cleaning with a correct spray cleaner for air intake parts. Cleaning the throttle body is done usually because the throttle blade starts stick as the carbon goop rubs on the edge when it's closed after the engine cools.

The purge valve that bleeds air back in through the charcoal canister to clear it of gasoline fumes that it caught in air leaving the gas tank is a fairly frequent faiure. Replacing the canister itself would be questionable for me. Did he give you old parts? Is the canister loaded with liquid fuel from the tank being overfilled?

Reminds me of a garage in the area where I took my car when the metal gas pressure line from the tank had corroded and was seeping gasoline. The shop guy told me he might be able to use a patch setup sold by Dorman. Then it was the line was leaking too close to the tank--the part I saw was in front of the tank toward the fuel filter. Then when they did the tank I got a phone call that they needed to up it $100 because they needed something for the brake lines. When I looked underneath afterwards, there were two cylinders in the brake lines near the tank that looked like filters. I assume they wanted to cut the lines instead of working the tank around them and wanted me to pay the cost of using those as a patch to get the line back together.

I had been warned by a mechanic friend of mine who knows the shop that they would replace anything they could anywhere related to the job. So it was an expensive fuel line/pump replacement but I couldn't do it and my neighbor didn't want to do it. Didn't get a full bill because my wife picked it up while I was working on a Saturday and Saturday was not a normal work day at the garage. Never bothered to ask more, because I was done with that somewhat "higher level" repair shop.

jipster

W
A mass airflow unit can be cleaned. Throttle body gunked up can cause described condition.

andre1969

I dunno Andre; sounds like your mechanic was just throwing parts at it.

Well, if it craps out again within the next few months, and for the same problem, then I'll be concerned. But, for the time being I'm happy. At least the Buick didn't act up like my '79 New Yorker, and die right around the corner not five minutes after the old mechanic said it was fixed, and that he wouldn't be afraid to drive the car anywhere!

Oh, almost forgot...he also changed the fuel filter. I was under the impression that it was in the tank, supposedly a "for life" component, and expensive as hell when it does need to be replaced. But apparently, on the Park Ave, it's external, and easier/cheaper to get to. He said that it looked to him like it had never been changed. And that could be, as the car only had 56,000 miles on it when I bought it, and at ~89,000, I never had it changed because I thought it was in the tank!

I didn't ask for any of the parts back, as I've always trusted this shop. I dunno...maybe I'm *too* trusting? But, they've never given me reason not to trust them, before.

thecardoc3

On the H-bodies, the MAF sensors need cleaning with a correct spray cleaner for air intake parts. Cleaning the throttle body is done usually because the throttle blade starts stick as the carbon goop rubs on the edge when it's closed after the engine cools.

These do have problems with contamination, but cleaning them isn't a true option. They never come back to full operation once they are contaminated. That's been a hard sell for a long time but its easy to prove when a technician uses fuel trims and the engine load pid for diagnostics. The only thing cleaning them really accomplishes is that it temporarily hides the fact that the sensor needed to be replaced. What escapes those who aren't familiar with the problem is there is contamination that is also occurring from the sensors electronics cooling gel that is leaking and coating the elements. You can't fix that leak by just cleaning some of it off of the sensor's elements.

The purge valve that bleeds air back in through the charcoal canister to clear it of gasoline fumes that it caught in air leaving the gas tank is a fairly frequent failure.

It happens, it isn't real common. The purge valve gets commanded on by the PCM to draw air through the cannister to purge the vapors, sometimes the cannister starts to fall apart and the little pieces of carbon start to migrate throught the system. They get into the purge valve and cause it to stick open.

Replacing the canister itself would be questionable for me. Did he give you old parts? Is the canister loaded with liquid fuel from the tank being overfill ed?

But you have no proof do you? How many of these systems have you diagnosed and repaired? Have you ever attended training on the proper service and repair for evaporative emissions systems on this or any other manufacturer? BTW the cannister getting full of fuel from overfilling is primarily a Toyota trick and does not happen with all cars.

Reminds me of a garage in the area where I took my car when the metal gas pressure line from the tank had corroded and was seeping gasoline. The shop guy told me he might be able to use a patch setup sold by Dorman. Then it was the line was leaking too close to the tank--the part I saw was in front of the tank toward the fuel filter. Then when they did the tank I got a phone call that they needed to up it $100 because they needed something for the brake lines. When I looked underneath afterwards, there were two cylinders in the brake lines near the tank that looked like filters. I assume they wanted to cut the lines instead of working the tank around them and wanted me to pay the cost of using those as a patch to get the line back together.

The people who don't want you to have viable repair shops love stories like that. It's so easy for you to twist it to be anything but what it really is. They tried to piece it together, and then they had to deal with the fuel lines. Don't overlook the fact that your other guy wouldn't even touch it.

These things are known for brake and fuel line failures, I have done a number of them where we quote every line from front to back or else there isn't a reason to even get involved. It's a lack of experience that suggests that it is wise or proper to piece it in. Any line left behind is subject to future failure and I don't know if you have ever experienced a brake line failure but there are times that it can be a very unsettling event to say the least.

I had been warned by a mechanic friend of mine who knows the shop that they would replace anything they could anywhere related to the job. So it was an expensive fuel line/pump replacement but I couldn't do it and my neighbor didn't want to do it

He would have done it how? First why didn't he do it if he is a mechanic and your friend? It's easy to criticize, but if you have never done it these lines are miserable jobs to replace. You have to do "everything related" or else the car will be right back with another problem and now your fixing it for free.

Didn't get a full bill because my wife picked it up while I was working on a Saturday and Saturday was not a normal work day at the garage. Never bothered to ask more, because I was done with that somewhat "higher level" repair shop.

You just proved a lot of what I am talking about, this is quite often a thank-less job.

thecardoc3

A mass airflow unit can be cleaned. Throttle body gunked up can cause described condition.

It "Can be". But if you open a shop and make a habit of it you'll have some customers complaining that you didn't fix their car the first time and you'll be now be replacing it on your own dime and still be the bad-guy.

Oh and just because it can be cleaned and make the car better, it doesn't mean that you made it right. Diagnosing with fuel trims and the engine load pids usually reveal the truth.

stever

Nothing that Andre wrote appears abnormal.

There was no indication that the mechanic diagnosed what was wrong and what failure(s) actually threw the codes. Maybe the mechanic did that, but without more info, it sounds like the mechanic replaced anything and everything that could have been related to the reason the codes were thrown.

Just because everything can be replaced and make the car better, it doesn't mean that the mechanic diagnosed it right.

If the car could have been put back to spec for $300, why pay $1,100? Why toss a good part in the trash before the end of its useful life (excepting stuff like water pumps, that you may replace because "you're in there already").

thecardoc3

You of course can armchair that all day. When it comes to actually doing the work and testing and proving what needed done, do you really have a clue?

Once we get past that part we can debate the rest if necessary.

jipster

I had a mass airflow sensor replaced on a 99 Buick regal about 10years ago. After the fact, found out it was a remanufactured sensor, put in by Buick dealership. Which is what, cleaned out really well? For a $380 repair, felt a bit ripped off.

Like car salesman, the bad or unethical mechanics/shops, make the rest of you look bad. Thanks for your perspective on the other side, and for the thorough education you've given Steve.

stever

We're having nice friendly discussions about the car fixing business. And we can do that without making it personal.

I can research problems and I can fix all kinds of stuff. And I can do that without calling my friends or the pros clueless or trying to denigrate their intelligence.

Sometimes I screw up and miss stuff. And sometimes the pros do too. :P

(Where have you been Jipster? Haven't seen you around the boards for a while).

thecardoc3

We're having nice friendly discussions about the car fixing business. And we can do that without making it personal.

Except that many of the jabs are personal, you don't always know where the line is. There are things that you cannot say because your used to the ideas about where to draw the line in regards to race, the same goes with sexual orientation. Nobody ever thought about technicians.

I can research problems and I can fix all kinds of stuff. And I can do that without calling my friends or the pros clueless or trying to denigrate their intelligence

Did jipster live up to that with everything that he wrote?

Sometimes I screw up and miss stuff. And sometimes the pros do too

Did anyone ever get hurt or die because of one of your slip-ups here? Do you want to have that responsibility rest on your shoulders? We walk that path daily and have to make the correct choice the first time.

andre1969

Well, here's what the receipt says:

"Scanned computer for codes, system stored codes for Evap System vent and purge problem, code for bank, I system lean. Cleared codes after repairs to reset light".

As for the parts:
1: Mass Air Sensor, $403.75 (mechanic said it was a GM part, but made in China)
2: Purge Solenoid: $61.92
3: Vapor Canister Valve: $46.96
4: Fuel Filter: $26.99
5: 44K injection cleaner: $21.95

As for the labor:
1) Diagnose cause of light: $89.50
2) Replace Mass Air Flow Sensor, clean throttle bore: $161.10
3) Replace Evap Purge Solenoid and vapor canister valve at fuel tank: $179.00
4) Remove/replace fuel filter: $62.65

That much comes out to $1,053.82. Throw in the oil change, motor oil additive (dunno if that was necessary or not), tax, and shop supplies (I think they used to call that "R&G" back in the day) and it came out to $1,186.39.

With emissions type controls like this, is it possible that if you only replace one component but not the others, then the new one will fail more quickly? For instance, if they just did the Mass Air Flow sensor, but didn't do the fuel filter, vapor canister, and solenoid thingie, that if those other things were still old and dirty, they'd simply make the new MAF sensor fail more quickly?

thecardoc3

I had a mass airflow sensor replaced on a 99 Buick regal about 10years ago. After the fact, found out it was a remanufactured sensor, put in by Buick dealership

Was the car repaired?

. Which is what, cleaned out really well?

They replace the elements and rebond the housing.

For a $380 repair, felt a bit ripped off.

Did you price a new sensor back then?

Mr_Shiftright

You don't have to have studied dentistry to at least question whether taking all your teeth out was a good idea or not.

The customer has a *right* to be shown defective parts and to know why something was done.

xwesx

And we aren't even close to being expensive by national averages....

From what I've read here about your techniques and pricing, I certainly agree. I keep thinking that it would be nice to have a shop like yours about 4,000 miles closer....

thecardoc3

The customer has a *right* to be shown defective parts

Absolutely.

and to know why something was done

Do you remember the game we used to play in school where the teacher had everyone sit in a circle and whispered a sentence into the first kids ear? Then that kid told the next, and the next...... I'm often amazed at what people think they were told compared to what was really said.

xwesx

Remanufactured generally means that the non-wear components of the part are cleaned and reused, while the wear components are replaced. I'm sure there's more to it than that. I always prefer re-man parts, as I've always found them to be as good as new, and it seems a better use of resources overall.

busiris

The customer has a *right* to be shown defective parts and to know why something was done.

I totally agree, but I question just how many folks would have any real understanding about what functions the replaced parts performed, or understand the mechanical terminology on the explanation.

Seems to me it wouldn't take a very big shop to create a full-time position of "translator", taking the technical explanations and transforming them into terminology the average driver could understand.

I mean, fast food places have pictures on the register keys... Can you imagine throwing out something like " the carbo-dingalator had to be flushed out" to one of these types?

Mr_Shiftright

Not sure I agree with that. A car is not an ICMB. One should be able to tell the average car owner why the 02 sensor needed replacement--it needn't be highly technical.

This is especially warranted when a shop replaces the starter motor, and the car still doesn't crank, and then replaces the battery and the ignition switch.

I don't understand how people tolerate that kind of repair. I'd be all over that shop if they replaced a part and the same symptom appeared again and again.

imidazol97

>But you have no proof do you?

Actually, no one has proof unless the defective canister was provided to the customer. While I may not have under the car experience and I wasn't present at the repair, I do learn from the service manuals and from other people's recitation of their experiences. Some of those people are very good mechanics whose experiences I learn from. I am firm believer that with a car like the H-body, what goes around comes around. Consequently, I can't recall reading that anyone replaced a defective canister on an H-body of Andre1969's era. I do know several have diagnosed defective purge valves and hose defects. I do know several other items that seem to give trouble under the maintenance category.

I do know a lot of folks have cleaned their MAF sensor: I've done that twice on my 03. I do know many people have put in new ones that are not ACDelco and are certain brands marketed by parts houses and they have not had satisfactory results. So if cleaning mine doesn't suffice, I'll try a replacement.

> why didn't he do it if he is a mechanic and your friend?

Actually he didn't want to do it because it didn't fit his schedule. He's a shade tree mechanic of the worst kind. He works on BMW's to Fords. I had a gasoline leak and he didn't want to be pushed. Did I mention he works a full time job?

jipster

Hey Steve, thought I'd give you a guy's a break.

Sold our Mazda mpv minivan. Wife bought hyundai veracruz, I just leased a honda civic. I poke around the boards from time to time. This one's gotten pretty interesting. Keep up the good work.

busiris

Not sure I agree with that. A car is not an ICMB. One should be able to tell the average car owner why the 02 sensor needed replacement--it needn't be highly technical.

This is especially warranted when a shop replaces the starter motor, and the car still doesn't crank, and then replaces the battery and the ignition switch.

I don't understand how people tolerate that kind of repair. I'd be all over that shop if they replaced a part and the same symptom appeared again and again.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not suggesting that repair shops should refuse explanations, and I certainly agree that a quality shop would not simply jump into parts swapping to see what "stuck".

When I go to a shop, which, luckily for me hasn't been that often over the years (I chalk that up to doing preventive maintenance whenever possible), I expect a diagnosis of the problem and then a quote for the repair costs. Unless I've been warned up front (and accepted the conditions beforehand), I expect the repair to fix the problem... IMO, any other, unforeseen parts/labor needed are at the shop's expense. That's the exact business model I've lived by during my working career.

The point I was attempting to make is that the majority of folks (which, BTW, don't even take the time to read their owner's manual) care less about what was/is broken and far more about the costs, in $$$ and time of the repair.

I doubt if 25% even know what O2 is, much less an O2 sensor or what it's needed for.

IMO, trying to give a "layman's" explanation to the majority of folks of what's wrong, and what's needed, to fix their car can easily be a tough row to hoe.

In my time, I've seen numerous instances of owners with car issues convinced they were going to be raped by the repair shop before they even pulled into the parking lot. These same folks don't feel that way about their doctor...

To be honest, though, I would say it goes beyond auto repair shops. One an see the same behavior in appliance repair, plumbing, home repairs, etc. --- and in many cases, those fears are warranted.

stever

Nice upgrades. We're even thinking of downsizing from our van in the next year or two. A Mazda5 is on our downsize list, lol.

And yeah, this one sucks you in. Gotta keep Shifty busy trying to keep all of us in line, especially me. :shades:

Steve, visiting host

kyfdx

So.... andre.. Your mechanic charges $89.50/hr for labor?

roadburner

I had a vehicle problem yesterday as well; I was on my way back from an assignment in Northern Ky when my son called and said the low coolant light came on in his X3 and a couple of minutes later the temp gauge went into the red zone. I have threatened him with a slow and painful death if he drives one of my BMWs any distance with the temperature gauge pegged, so he pulled off as soon as it was safe to do so. I told him to wait until it cooled down and then drive it home(he was @1 mile away). When I got home a quick inspection revealed that the coolant expansion tank had cracked(after "only" 9 years and 148k miles). I really didn't have the time to perform the R&R myself so I used my insurance breakdown coverage and had it towed to my dealer. I called the dealer at 7:30 this morning but their phone system was down. However, an advisor soon called me on his own cell phone to find out why the truck was there. About one hour later my advisor followed up and confirmed my diagnosis. While I had it there I authorized replacement of the seeping valve cover gasket(another job I had been planning to do). At 12:45 they called and said the car was ready to go- and it was washed and vacuumed when I picked it up. This is why my wife is extremely hesitant to stray from the Munich fold(and this dealer)- and I can't say I blame her. I didn't expect it to be finished before Monday; never mind in less than 6 hours. I know of more than a few dealer service departments where the staff would have simply sat on their hands until the phone system was repaired.
Two BIG thumbs-up to Swope BMW

busiris

I've had similar experiences at my local BMW dealer.

Once, while having the annual oil change in my Z4 coupe, the service department installed a new driver's door weatherstrip that I didn't even realize was defective, all under warranty.

I've had the dealer re-code some of the options on both that car and my 328i convertible, and they have never charged me for that exercise as long as the car was there for another reason, such as a scheduled oil change.

And, the car is always returned washed and vacuumed.

Of course, I paid a premium price for the cars, but I know others that paid premium prices for other makes from different dealers that get no such treatment.

thecardoc3

I am firm believer that with a car like the H-body, what goes around comes around.

So you believe that every "like" car has the exact same failures, no matter what, correct?

Consequently, I can't recall reading that anyone replaced a defective canister on an H-body of Andre1969's era

There are a lot of people who when they think a particular part is bad use whether the dealer stocks it or not as part of their verification process. If you think about that, really think about it, that's silly. The yang of it as your're suggesting is that if the dealer doesn't stock the part never fails. When you have invested enough time studying and gaining experience you can accurately diagnose any failure, even if it is the one and only time that you ever encounter it. That's what every technician ascribes to be able to do.

I do know several have diagnosed defective purge valves and hose defects. I do know several other items that seem to give trouble under the maintenance category.

Pattern failures do occur, dealership technicians often get really good at replacing/repairing specific components. The problem comes when a failure doesn't fit the usual trends if someone is thinking the way I am reading you.

I use this example. You bring a 2005 Chevrolet Malibu in for a Check Engine light. The code is a P0101, mass airflow sensor (MAF) performance. You complete the diagnostics and it is a defective mass air sensor. Over the next few weeks you diagnose and repair nineteen more 2005 Malibu's with P0101's and every one of them is a defective MAF. How do you approach the 21st Malibu in for a P0101? Conventional "wisdom" says you replace the MAF sensor, heck it was right twenty times in a row.

What does that customer think if replacing their sensor doesn't fix their car?

They would be telling everyone that you don't know what you are doing, and that you are a rip-off. But remember, you were right twenty times! We have to change everyone's perspectives and it has to happen one step at a time. The first step is to make sure that the techs take a disciplined approach to testing, and that will never happen if they aren't paid correctly for the time required to do it. Now in my example, that 21st diagnostic should be going along at a rapid pace, with familiarity and practice come speed. But suddenly that one isn't a MAF and everything now has to slow down to make sure he/she gets it right the first time.

I do know many people have put in new ones that are not ACDelco and are certain brands marketed by parts houses and they have not had satisfactory results.

As I said, the potting that protects the electronics starts to seep and that's what is making the elements "dirty". There are other internal issues at play as well. We use O.E. sensors, it just isn't worth the risk using anything else.

Actually he didn't want to do it because it didn't fit his schedule. He's a shade tree mechanic of the worst kind. He works on BMW's to Fords. I had a gasoline leak and he didn't want to be pushed. Did I mention he works a full time job?

Does he report the income that he is making and pay taxes on it? Is his "shop" in an area zoned for commercial business? Does his insurance agent know that he is operating a business at his location? Does he have liability insurance? Has he been attending training on a regular basis? I could go on and on here. If he wants to be a mechanic Then he needs to be able to answer yes to all of those questions, and more. By working on the side, he is part of the problem. He is likely capable of skimming some of the gravy work off of the top, and that leaves a greater percentage of the bad work for shops, making it harder for them to be viable. Even when I read your first report in my mind I can see the shop trying to be as cheap as they can and undershooting the estimate resulting in having to report additional work. Here in western Pa you would not have a single line that would be in good enough condition to not replace, and I would estimate to replace everyone of them, up front. Oh, and those components you called filters, they are proportioning valves. They reduce the rear brake pressure up to about 1/2 pedal and then the ABS has to take over if the wheels start locking.

thecardoc3

It must have caught you a bit off guard for me to jump as hard as I did yesterday, but there has to be a limit. It seems so fashionable to continually cut down shops and techs, and sure there are some who aren't making much of an effort to climb above the stereotype. I've said it before, they don't build churches for the saints.

The best way to deal with the bad shops, is to make it easier for the consumer to identify the good shops and techs. The cookie cutter stories you can find about how to choose a good shop are themselves often way off the mark and in a serious need of an accurate upgrade. We can't survive only solving the nightmares, the publics perception doesn't permit us to charge correctly for them.

thecardoc3

"Scanned computer for codes, system stored codes for Evap System vent and purge problem, code for bank, I system lean. Cleared codes after repairs to reset light".

One of the first things that I'll point out is how that is a good description of what they found to initalize the repair. It could use more verbage, and explain what tests were done, but the flat rate atmosphere doesn't allow for that. They pay the tech "X" for "Y", and sitting at the computer writing falls under "Z". Meanwhile the service writer isn't a tech and while they will in time be able to parrot a lot of the typical repair information, they are not capable of doing the work at a productive level if at all.

As for the parts:
1: Mass Air Sensor, $403.75 (mechanic said it was a GM part, but made in China)
2: Purge Solenoid: $61.92
3: Vapor Canister Valve: $46.96
4: Fuel Filter: $26.99
5: 44K injection cleaner: $21.95

The parts would be virtually the same price, the dealer networks set the prices. Then injector cleaner is worthy of its own story, it has its place and use. Dollar for dollar Chevron Techron is a much better option for a fuel additive.

As for the labor:
1) Diagnose cause of light: $89.50

I'm higher here, but then I'm spending some ten times the money each year because I support a number of manufacturers systems, and I am doing it off the labors of just one technician.

2) Replace Mass Air Flow Sensor, clean throttle bore: $161.10
3) Replace Evap Purge Solenoid and vapor canister valve at fuel tank: $179.00
4) Remove/replace fuel filter: $62.65

Here is where we beat the dealer, I don't see us over $200 for all of this. That means we would be 850-900 for the whole visit, and there are shops around me who would be well under that.