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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "How does the system protect the consumers from people who failed as professional technicians from opening up a back alley business?"

    Why, it doesn't.

    Other than the nuclear industry, I doubt there's any other industry with more regulation than the medical field. Yet, one can easily find instances with a minimal amount of searching that describe doctors practicing without a license, or clinics operating under deplorable conditions.

    IMO, folks need to utilize some common sense (which often isn't so common) when obtaining services.

    Personally, I like the idea of state/national certification of shops/mechanics, even if its not a legal requirement. A true certification process (not simple licenses bought by service providers) including demanding knowledge and the passing of exams, even if voluntary (along with the publication of standards in a manner the consumer could easily understand) would be a huge step forward.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    That's scary to think about but maybe I've been reading enenews.com too much.

    Maybe Gimme can weigh in on the Canadian certification system. Driver100 mentioned the APA (automotive protection agency) stings a while back.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    Oh yeah, 1999... no biggie. Thought is was fairly new.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    How does the system protect the consumers from people who failed as professional technicians from opening up a back alley business?"

    Why, it doesn't.

    IMO, folks need to utilize some common sense (which often isn't so common) when obtaining services.


    It would help consumers make better choices if writers learned more about what it really takes to service the cars today.

    Personally, I like the idea of state/national certification of shops/mechanics, even if its not a legal requirement.

    If it is to be done, then it has to have real teeth in it just like the medical field. Otherwise you end up with Michigan's law which is little more than a tax on the professional shops that the back alley guys skip around.

    A true certification process (not simple licenses bought by service providers) including demanding knowledge and the passing of exams, even if voluntary

    That brings us to ASE

    https://www.ase.com/Home.aspx

    and that leads into discussion of one of the issues we currently are dealing with. At one time the manufacturers really supported ASE, but divergence between system designs makes specific O.E. training and certifications much more important. Top techs view ASE as a minimum standard but its all we really have. Plus it takes time for ASE to react to changes in technology. ASE recently announced a new certification which will start in 2015, Hybrid and Electric vehicle certifications, that is more than ten years behind the introduction of these vehicles to the marketplace.

    ASE is a decade behind the work that we do today, that's pretty good compared to many of the self proclaimed experts that haven't been under a hood or dash in years, (if ever) who constantly try to peddle advice to consumers and that's one of the biggest hurdles to improving licensing and certification for techs. Most of the people who think they know how to judge us are still stuck in the carburetor and points era. JMHO
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    " Most of the people who think they know how to judge us are still stuck in the carburetor and points era."

    True, but if you don't know the basics of how an engine or transmission works (it hasn't changed since 1915), then you have nothing to build on.

    If I were trying to diagnose a 1915 car or a 2015 car, the phrase "check for spark" still applies. HOW it makes the spark---well, that's all different.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    edited October 2013
    but if you don't know the basics of how an engine or transmission works (it hasn't changed since 1915), snip or a 2015 car, the phrase "check for spark" still applies

    Are you absolutely sure about that?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    yeah I am if you exclude the rotary engine and things like that....pistons are still compressing fuel/air and going up and down, gears are still engaging and disengaging...even the Model T had a planetary gear system not unlike a 1941 Hydramatic.

    and chemistry and physics laws regarding gases, heat transfer and electricity still apply.

    And don't try some "doc trick" on me. You know I'm right :)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,737
    not to mention cars without gas-burning engines.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Even 1920s electric cars used batteries and electric motors--same idea as a Tesla.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,331
    And don't try some "doc trick" on me. You know I'm right

    Oh come on... we all know that there is only one person in this topic qualified to discuss anything about automotive repair- only one individual worthy of pulling the hood release.

    And if you don't believe me just ask him!

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well he knows more than I do, that's for sure, but he may not know everything I know.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Even 1920s electric cars used batteries and electric motors--same idea as a Tesla

    Do you really feel that the electric car technology of the 1890's to 1920's bares any resemblance to what Tesla is doing today? Can you image a consumer of today having to put up with buying a car without a battery, and then renting one from that point on an exchange basis? (That's what they did in the early 1900's because recharging them presented a significant challenge)

    Trying to dumb this all down like you are serves no real purpose. Even the idea of "Check for spark" usually has people pull a plug out and stick it or a screwdriver into a plug wire and hold it next to the valve cover and when they crank the engine see a spark but not understand that doesn't prove that there is enough spark to make an engine run, let alone run right or whether or not the spark is occurring at the right time. Truly being able to do the job means having a solid understanding of all of the fundamentals, not just a few fragments.

    Lets have some fun with this.

    http://answers.edmunds.com/question-98-Dodge-Caravan-EGR-catalyst-oxygen-sensors- -reset-179070.aspx

    Zaken's sending the guy on a wild goose chase. What's the right way to approach the posters emissions issue?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Well he knows more than I do, that's for sure, but he may not know everything I know.

    In this trade no-one knows everything, and just about every one of us has seen something that the next person hasn't. Nothing new about that, there's just too much to ever have to deal with. When I go and teach classes I enjoy every time a tech shares something that I haven't seen before because that's "One For Me" to take back to the shop.

    Those ceramic laser ignition systems are real game changers, aren't they?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    When I was a kid, we talked a classmate into sticking his finger into the end of a spark plug wire on his car to check for spark.

    It had spark all right!

    I know an old timer that would actually do that. It didn't seem to bother him at all. Wen the HEI ignition systems came out, he decided to find a different way!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    Either my point went right over your head on its way to the coast, or you're being coy again.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,331
    I'd call it a "passive-aggressive head game" rather than "coy."

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    What's the matter, did that laser ignition system catch you off guard? No its not in a current production car yet, but it has been in with engineering and testing then taken back out a few times over the last couple of years with several of the top end manufacturers. I can't say if it will make production in 2015 as of yet we haven't heard. Learning to diagnose a problem with that system will be like starting all over yet again.

    Which BTW brings us back to that 98 Caravan that won't set the monitors. Everyone believes they understand OBDII, well if they do then they should know how to approach that vehicle's problem. Running the monitors is what OBDII is all about. A check engine light and of course the code that gets set is the direct result of a monitor (test), or a part of a monitor (test) failing. Every test has criteria that has to be met in order for it to run. When a vehicle fails to complete its monitors that means the system failed to meet the minimum criteria for some of the tests. That answers forum leads posters to think their questions are going to be attended to by experts in the field, and yes Gimme, people who try and answer questions there are lauded as experts, meanwhile many of the answers prove they are anything but one.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    laser ignition doesn't change the basic principles---fuel, "spark" and compression. And the diesel and electric engines are just as old as the spark ignition/laser ignition engine. So the shade tree mechanic, if he's clever enough, will buy a laser ignition tester and test for "laser activation".

    and if defective,he'll do the same thing you have to do--buy a new one. Your mechanic of the future is going to be more and more a "parts replacer". His skills will shift over to diagnosis. He may never ever get his hands dirty again.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    So the shade tree mechanic, if he's clever enough,

    "IF" that's the biggest word in the English language.

    will buy a laser ignition tester and test for "laser activation".

    Buy a tester? That's funny. :)
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,331
    See Shifty? You are just as ignorant as the rest of us non-professional technicians...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sure, pull the "plug", stick it in the Beamtronic and let the gizmo check the current and alignment. Already happens with other laser devices, like those big film machines at Walmart.

    You could "eyeball" test it, but only once, lol.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    To get your custom Beamtronic..

    Payment is considered in two steps:
    First 50% as the order confirmation.

    Two months lead time to assemble unit according your particular order.

    Second 50% of payment is required upon completion.

    No delivery option offered, because Training is considered as the delivery stage of the product. Either your technician is going to receive device and Training in Russia, or our specialist is going to your country with Beamtronic. No specific courrier's delivery needed.


    Pretty sure that thing will be too expensive for me....... Shady must have some really deep pockets.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    The laser ignition system shows there is no limit to what the techno geniuses have in store for cars in the future. LSMFT
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Whelp - the cost of your laser ignition system linked was $20,000 in 2011. Recent estimates have it down to $5,000.

    In a few years, the test tool will be $88 at Harbor Freight.

    Well, hopefully it'll just be built-in with the ECU stuff and at worse, you'll have to call OnStar to verify that the lasers are projected at the right spot. I can hear the complaints now - it's running okay, but there's a lazy laze in cylinder #3 every six million nanoseconds.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,357
    some whiz kid probably already developed an ap for it. Point it at your iPhone, and there you go.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    I gotta get a smartphone. :sick:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Wonder how T-Mobile will react to all of the phones being upgraded with holes burnt through them....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Lol, us consumers will get the non-destructive testing version.

    As soon as FedEx delivers my 3D printer, I'm getting that phone....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Steve's right. IN the future we'll just hook that puppy up to our OBD-VIII diagnostic system and it'll tell us what to do. Remember, technology increases exponentially. We went from a horse to the moon in 65 years. We went from an MG to a Miata in only 10!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    On the other hand, it took 100 years for faxes to hit critical mass (and another ten for the mass market for them to collapse).
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,331
    edited October 2013
    I remember a lot of hand-wringing among BMW enthusiasts back in the early 1980s over how EFI would make it impossible to modify engines for increased power- but guys like Steve Dinan and my friend Jim Conforti proved those fears to be groundless.
    There will always be those who would like to see engine compartments sealed shut so that only "professionals" can obtain access for maintenance/repair, but there will always be men and women who will find a workaround.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Steve's right. IN the future we'll just hook that puppy up to our OBD-VIII diagnostic system and it'll tell us what to do

    We hear about magic tools all the time, haven't seen one yet.

    Remember, technology increases exponentially

    OBDII has been around for almost twenty years, and yet that poster with that Caravan still hasn't gotten an answer that would guide him towards solving that problem. The increases in technology is making problems like that worse not better. The manufacturers still don't have any real answers for doing diagnostics when a problem causes a loss of network communication. Those all have to be diagnosed by hand, by a qualified technician. In many cases it isn't practical to write a trouble tree to lead a technician because there are just too many variables.

    Snap-On tools sells this item.
    http://www.autocarepro.com/Article/94616/new_snapon_data_bus_fault_finder_diagno- ses_scan_tool_communication_failures.aspx

    The problem with this approach, even if it really did work universally (it doesn't) is it forces the tech to be a slave to the tool and that works to erode skills or maybe even prevent them from ever needing to be developed in the first place. With the specific GM vehicles that the tool was really designed to work with it could be a time saver to a degree. But try a Chrysler product or any other manufacturer that doesn't use the pre-chosen network splice pack connectors, or worse yet only harness splices instead of a connector and the tool becomes a liability. An experienced tech with a well rehearsed routine will leave someone slaved to that tool in the dust.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We hear about magic tools all the time, haven't seen one yet.

    Haven't seen laser ignition yet either. Got spark? :D
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Haven't seen laser ignition yet either. Got spark?

    Not on every car/truck that I routinely work on.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    OBDII has been around for almost twenty years, and yet that poster with that Caravan still hasn't gotten an answer that would guide him towards solving that problem.

    Yet here you are apparently knowing full well a helpful direction to steer him yet you choose instead to "have fun with it". Ugh.

    And what's up with you referring to me by name in suggesting some odd innuendo well after the fact? This is twice now you brought me into some weird agenda'd point you are trying to make. If you want to step up and reply, then why not at least to my most recent post #4587? It's a bit creepy how you bring my name up occasionally as if I'm a ghost shadow, hanging around your conscience.

    Personally, for all the worthiness you claim to have in the field, doc, I'd still like you to either defend or make a retraction regarding your claim that a bump unscrewed RB's oil cap. Oh...that's right...you think he made up the story as he went along...or at least that is what you accused him of.

    Doc...cards on the table moment here for a short, ok? You claim to have skills and diagnostic knowledge that some others here would like to have, yet you lack any grace when they are recognized. Instead you use this forum is your own personal little ego-stroker, or pity-party, depending on how a topic evolves. Usually though it is a surprising mix of both from the get-go.

    Morally, I think you should go and tell the Caravan owner that the advice he has been given will send him down the wrong road. While no harm will probably come from any efforts if he followed Zaken's suggestions to the letter, they are just costing him and wasting his time. Even if you didn't offer him the ever so coddled silver bullet that you treasure so, you could at least tell him to not waste his time and money. Let him search you down for credibility whether or not to trust you. Or you could just fire off that silver bullet for him...come-on...it won't kill ya..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Speaking of how tools have changed, a friend blew a plug on the road the other day in a little town in the boonies. The mechanic he found sent him to the chain saw dealer, who had a HeliCoil kit. My bud drives an Expedition and I guess the plugs are buried pretty good, but the kit has a scope so you can see what you are doing. Endocrinologists got nothing on auto mechanics, although their scopes are a bit more sterile.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The problem isn't the technology, the problem is that the technology isn't standardized across manufacturers.

    If houses were built like cars, contractors would go nuts.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    edited October 2013
    >Endocrinologists got nothing on auto mechanics, although their scopes are a bit more sterile.

    Gastroenterologists? Endocrinologists study hormones; are the cars being over emotional?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    my car is definitely overly-emotional. It acts out when it wants attention.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Crap, missed my edit window. ;)

    My cars don't have thyroids (just like me), but they do get fatigued when the additives get off, LOL.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I agree that standardizing tech on cars would go a long way toward improving trouble shooting. That won't happen because every mfr has to have it's own new best stuff. Even if there was some modicum of standardization, developments are occurring so rapidly that there may be no way to keep up or develop a skill base through experience.
    Another issue I like to reflect on is recruiting and training people to excel in a particular profession.
    As a retired teacher, some folks have the right stuff to be great teachers and some don't. End of story. The academics don't prepare you for the many challenges. I believe there isn't an infinite supply of folks who can do the job. If you could isolate a population of those who do, how many would actually want to be teachers ? How many would like the job for 30 years ? I believe that there aren't enough "right stuff" souls to fill every classroom so you have to deal with those who want to teach and will never be more than C or D performers. I believe this scenario applies across the board to many occupations including auto techs. You will have pockets of excellence but for the most part in an enormously diverse social system, there will be some just filling a space.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,331
    edited October 2013
    ;)

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wonder. What does a car mechanic make in relation to say an aviation mechanic?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    I wonder. What does a car mechanic make in relation to say an aviation mechanic

    Which one are you more likely to need tomorrow?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well, if the aviation mechanic screws up, there usually is no tomorrow.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Let him search you down for credibility whether or not to trust you. Or you could just fire off that silver bullet for him...come-on...it won't kill ya..

    I think you just summed up how little value there really is for me in giving him his not so silver bullet of an answer. There is no moral obligation for me to give out any more information than I already did, which if you only understood what I wrote there was more than enough to start him on the right path.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    usually?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    In small private planes, you can sometimes bring 'er down, then find the mechanic and shoot him. :)
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