A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

crkyolfrt

There is no moral obligation for me to give out any more information than I already did,

To who? You told us, but I see you can't be bothered to tell him. Do you expect one of us to be your messenger?? "Well I know this guy who puffs his chest, but he does know a thing or two at times and he says.."

I see you are still unwilling to address a mounting number of queries, doc..
Sidestep much?

And yes, when you seek to entertain at his expense by "having fun", then there is an obligation there..but with your usual self-absorption interests, I guess I'm not that surprised that you don't realize it.

You're not going to get any more feedback (constructive, entertaining, educational or otherwise) from me, until you.. once and for all..step up.

thecardoc3

I see you are still unwilling to address a mounting number of queries, doc.. Sidestep much?

So we are right back to the double standard where I have to address every innuendo, but nobody else (especially you) does.

This is exactly what its like to work in the trade, you (and many others) don't recognize that the techs who have been working harder both on the job and off it to understand just how these vehicle systems really work should be earning something back for that effort. It wasn't free to us to learn these things, why is it supposed to be free to you? (or him)

The repeating stories always fall to pull a code, go change a part, anybody can do it, and is supposed to be free. Others have stated they don't see the cars not getting fixed so there can't be a shortage of techs. And let's not forget the "Hook it up to the machine and it will tell you what's wrong".

"Well I know this guy who puffs his chest, but he does know a thing or two at times and he says.."

What you should really be saying to him is you know this guy that keeps working hard no matter how much we have tried to dump on him, and he does know how to solve the problem you are having with your car. He started a post about it but we only found it in ourselves to attack him instead of having a light and possibly entertaining discussion about it. He thinks knowing how to fix your car is supposed to be worth something but I think we can shame him into giving the information away for free.

You're not going to get any more feedback (constructive, entertaining, educational or otherwise) from me,

So we can hold you to that, right? Excellent. Have a nice day!

roadburner

If I wanted to alienate every other participant in a topic I believe I would choose to project a smug attitude of perceived superiority- and then blend in a dash of bitterness and pessimism, finished off with a hefty persecution complex. I'd follow up by accusing anyone who had the temerity to disagree with me of being dishonest.

Of course, if someone were to actually try that they would come off looking like a prime candidate for a psychiatric case study- so I'm glad that no one in this topic is pursuing that strategy...

busiris

An excellent observation...

jipster

"It wasn't free to us to learn these things, why is it suppose to be free to you?"

While I appreciate any info given, when I ask a question it is usually for the sake of convenience (sometimes because I can't find an answer).

I don't want to have to "work" to find an answer. If I have a question about oil, I can research the properties of oil specs for 10 hours, or you can be a nice guy and tell me in about a minute.

thecardoc3

I don't want to have to "work" to find an answer. If I have a question about oil, I can research the properties of oil specs for 10 hours, or you can be a nice guy and tell me in about a minute.

Yea, and we (I) do answer those questions all the time. But take that back to the question that was at hand which relates to that Caravan not completing its monitors and "the answer" can take several hours of effort to prove out. It isn't something that can just be looked up or memorized and silver bulleted which is why I wanted to make a discussion out of it.

In later models Chrysler supports running of the monitors with the factory scan tool. None of the aftermarket tools picked this capability up. With a 98 it might do it if the software in the PCM has been updated, but not in all cases. If it does support running the monitors here is how it is approached.

When you are driving the vehicle to run the monitors after meeting minimum criteria (coolant temperature, intake or ambient air temperature, vehicle run time) you have to keep the engine speed, vehicle speed, throttle position etc. inside tight windows that are displayed on the screen on the scan tool. When you have all of these parameters correct simultaneously in all of the windows, the chosen monitor runs. Then you move to the next monitor that isn't complete and repeat the process. Some of the cars can be made to run the monitors in a few miles and are pretty easy, but then again some are difficult to hold or maybe even can't be held inside all of the windows for one reason or another. Or a vehicle may fail to meet the minimum criteria which means there is something that will need repaired first for any of them to run. An example of that could be if the coolant temperature is too cold on the highway, that can block the monitors from running.

There are a lot of things that can block monitors from completing, in the case of the EGR monitor (with that Caravan), the O2 sensor monitor, and fuel trim monitor have to have completed on this trip, or the previous one since short term trim is used to judge the EGR flow.

That's the basic explanation for Chrysler products and even knowing this if you don't have the factory scan tool or if the vehicle doesn't support it, you can't run the monitors this way and have to rely on the drive cycle and manually watch the minimum criteria with the scan tool.

Since Pa. started OBDII emissions testing I have averaged about a dozen of these diagnostics a month across all manufacturers.

xwesx

I realize that the point of your post wasn't so much to discuss the Chrysler van as it was to illustrate the point you brought up earlier, but I'd like to tie your explanation back to the introduction.

Having had a Chrysler van for a few years, I know these vehicles tend to have ground issues. Are you saying that it is highly unlikely that the advice offered by Zaken is useful in any way, or that the advice, in the absence of any testing that would lead one to that conclusion, is not likely to yield meaningful results?

stever

I have to believe that the monitors and self-checks will keep getting better all the time too.

thecardoc3

Are you saying that it is highly unlikely that the advice offered by Zaken is useful in any way, or that the advice, in the absence of any testing that would lead one to that conclusion, is not likely to yield meaningful results?

Both actually, but I really like the way you worded the second part. The symptoms as described just aren't there to support a faulty ground issue and besides if it was that, any number of the techs who looked at this previous to the post would be aware of that tendency.

thecardoc3

Then you need to get into a shop and find out first hand. I haven't even gotten fully in depth as to just what would be entailed to diagnose that Caravan, I've only set the table for what is to come.

The 2008 Impala that I did Friday had 58 tests that had to complete to be ready for its emissions test. Half of them were being blocked by the fuel trim test not completing because the system couldn't accurately confirm purge valve flow. There is no trouble tree to guide a tech to the answer with something like this. I, (and other techs have) had to find our own way and share ideas and concepts with this stuff. That one required logging the tests that weren't running and looking at the codes that could be generated by those tests if they failed. Then I had to study the code set criteria, and the code enable criteria to figure out just which ones had to happen first. All of this was the result of someone simply clearing codes without documentation and without performing proper repairs. If a qualified tech would have seen this first it would have been a much simpler issue. But by someone taking a bad routine it nearly cost the girl a healthy ticket for her expired inspection.

thecardoc3

If you have followed what I wrote you should recognize that the O2 sensor monitor must complete first before the EGR and the Catalyst Monitors can run. With none of them completing that means the O2 monitor is not running to completion. To figure out why start by looking up and listing all of the O2 sensor performance codes that the system could set. A circuit code is different from a performance code, if there was a circuit fault those are much easier to set so make sure to identify the difference in them and you won't need to look at circuits until you find the exact portion of a test that suggests you may need to. Once you have identified the performance codes, see if you can find the code enable criteria for them, and then the code set criteria and try and figure out exactly when during a road test the computer should be running each part of the test of the sensors. (The O2 sensor tests are a combination of about eight tests)

Once you do that you would now have to drive the car and try to figure out what and why that test(s) are not running.

xwesx

"Better self-diagnostics" sounds more to me like more potential things to fail and introduce more noise into the results. The end result? More complication for the technician doing the diagnostics and, ultimately, more cost to the owner to get the vehicle fixed!

Example? The horn on my Fiesta isn't working. It's not the fuse....

I really miss the days of mechanical engines, transmissions, and a handful of wires. :P

thecardoc3

I wrote this about six years ago.

Seriously, how do YOU perform
testing when the repair order just handed to you says the
horn is inoperative?

Do you have a set routine, or do you simply choose where you
want to start this time? Have you ever really thought much
about it that all diagnostics should follow the same routine
no matter how simple they may appear to be at first, or how
complex you are sure it's going to be?

First step. Simply try the horn and confirm the reported
problem. For this exercise we will confirm the horn did not
blow. Now the second step what would you do? How many would
go out to the horn (where ever it's at) and check for power
to it and ground for it? While some cars the horn is readily
exposed, there are others that may require you to put the
car on the hoist and remove splash shielding. R&R of this
could take a half an hour, not to mention dealing with any
fasteners that don't survive the process. Would this
difference make you change your routine this time? How about
listening for a relay to click when you pushed the horn pad?
Great trick until we have the relay under hood, or one that
simply does not make noise so you cannot find it when you go
hunting for it. You could check the fuse, of course while
your at it, be sure to check all of the fuses. Just because
there are no other reported problems, it does not mean that
there aren't any. Would you go and get a schematic for the
car and check component locations and maybe do a TSB check
at this point?

All of these "second" steps are typical ones that any of us
have done, and frankly few of us have ever been taught to do
this any differently. The fact that some of the steps would
more readily apply to other systems than just a horn is no
accident, it's to discuss a diagnostic strategy that will
overlap many different systems.

Are you ready for what the second step
SHOULD be today?

Open the hood, attach your current probe to the battery
cable, "zero" the probe, because we don't care what current
is presently flowing, and reach through the window and try
the horn again. How much current did you see flow?

There are basically three possible answers. 0 (zero) amps,
no current flow at all. .1-.6 amps, or 3 amps or more. This
would be repeatable when you hit and release the horn pad.

Lets start with the first one, no current flow at all. What
did that tell you? What is your next move? Test the fuse,
the relay, or the horn pad? Maybe go get a scan tool to look
at scan data? See if the SIR lamp works? How about this.
Look at the key fob. Does it have a panic button on it? If
so, press it and measure the results. Did the horn sound
when the panic button activated? Did the resulting current
flow give you any hints what to check next?

Depending on the results of this second step, your next move
should be to a schematic, and to I.D. component locations.
You now are only looking at a fraction of the original
circuit by having used a solid routine for the first couple
of steps. Simple, don't you agree?

Lets try another, the .1 to .6 amps current flow. What do
you know as soon as you see that much current flowing when
you pushed on the horn pad? Would you need to check the
fuse, the horn pad, the clock spring, or wiring in the
steering column? The small current flow that you would see
is the relay primary circuit that is energized by pressing
the horn pad. That one move you confirmed that entire
circuit, and now only have to be concerned with the
"controlled" portion of the circuit, being the horn(s),their
ground, and the relay output.

Now lets look at the last possibility, and I used 3amps as a
number I pulled out of the air. Basically when you see any
current flow that proves the relay functioned, and then
current should have been available to the horns, you know
your headed out to them anyway. Three amps would suggest the
likelihood of a voltage drop occurring where there is a
complete circuit, but insufficient current flow for the
horns to blow. Six or more amps basically gives you total
assurance of not only a complete circuit, but dead horn(s)
and it didn't take you any more than about 90 seconds to get
there.

Now who wants to attempt to repeat this exercise with
another circuit, and "speculate" on exactly what you will
see when you do? How about a power window, or power door
lock? Wipers, blower motor, etc.

PS. How do you charge to do this, now that on average what
used to take 1/2 an hour or more on occasion is completed in
under five minutes almost every time?

stever

Then you need to get into a shop and find out first hand. I haven't even gotten fully in depth as to just what would be entailed to diagnose that Caravan, I've only set the table for what is to come.

That Caravan is a '98 and the Impala is an '08. I bet there's more info available on the Impala when you plug it in that on the Caravan. The tools and sensors and self-checks will just keep getting better.

thecardoc3

I bet there's more info available on the Impala when you plug it in that on the Caravan. The tools and sensors and self-checks will just keep getting better

I get it, you don't believe what I am saying. The only thing for you to do is become a tech and get into a shop and find out yourself for real. It isn't getting easier, its getting harder, much harder. Twenty years ago we could work on all makes and all models and some of us could go bumper to bumper. Fifteen years ago we had to start to specialize more, maybe give up transmission work and concentrate more on engines or vice versa. Ten years ago we had to really start limiting manufacturers and specialize even more. Today, a tech does really good to handle basic general work on most nameplates and specialize in depth on one or two. Transmissions are left to specialty shops, engines are almost exclusively done at full machine shops. For the electronics aspect its best to only work on one manufacturer, but if you really want to work hard at it, you can do American, and maybe some Asian, or just all Asian, or just Euro's. It's entirely prohibitive in cost and training needs to try and do them all. There is just too much to have to know on any one nameplate, and its only going to get harder as systems get more complex.

stever

It goes back further than that Doc. Specialization isn't anything new.

Back in '77, the mechanic we went to most often only worked on Volvos. A family member just did starters and generators and he wound up just doing ones on semis. None of the auto shops I've ever used machined heads.

Tool and shop cost was a factor but a lot of it was focusing on what they liked to do and were more interested in, and what they were really good at.

qbrozen

I don't think that's what he's saying, though. Doing something like machining heads or reconditioning any parts is a different matter. That is akin to swapping out a broken starter for a remanufactured one. You just don't do that in-house. It isn't worth the time or money. The cost benefit isn't there. A machine shop is a different business than an auto repair shop.

And if an auto repair shop chose to deal with specific makes back in the day, well that was really by choice, not necessity. I definitely remember some old timers who wouldn't touch anything except what they knew. My grandfather was like that. Worked at a Pontiac dealership for a big part of his life, so he wouldn't even look at anything else.

My father, on the other hand, the one who trained me, started out fixing pinball machines on the boardwalk in high school. Went into the army after that where, after being grounded for health reasons, wrenched on helicopters and planes. Applied that knowledge to big rigs in the real world. By the time he opened his own shop, there wasn't a damned thing he was afraid to dig into. So I definitely hear where doc is coming from on this point. Back when I was working the shop in the '80s, I don't recall there ever being anything we couldn't deal with. We never turned anything away based on make or model.

thecardoc3

So I definitely hear where doc is coming from on this point. Back when I was working the shop in the '80s, I don't recall there ever being anything we couldn't deal with. We never turned anything away based on make or model

While at the dealership in the late 70's and early 80's we often joked about being glad that there wasn't a railroad spur running through the building or they would have expected us to fix them too.

When the towns garbage truck lost a hydraulic pipe in the packer body, it was me that had to come up with the tools and figure out how to repair it. (Fitting and threading black pipe and making the new hydraulic hoses)

I'll never forget putting an engine in it all by myself over a weekend, rebuilding the transmission, and rear axle on it on other occasions. The worst thing ever had to be when it lost the blow off valve (parking brake) for the air brakes while it was at the dump. FYI the air pressure releases the brakes, they are applied by spring pressure so when the valve failed all the wheels became locked and it wouldn't move. I made a temporary repair so I could get it out of the garbage and then fixed it out on the road. I still gag at the thought of that event.....

But gbrozen is correct. As a twenty year old I did my own valve jobs, which meant I alone ground the valves and the seats, I was rebuilding starters, alternators, transmissions, engines, steering gears etc., and could go bumper to bumper on Fords.

In '82 I went from Ford to GM and basically had to learn everything all over again with them. GM had computer controls in every car. I started studying electronics through CIE in late 83 through early 84 and that helped me become better at diagnostics which was important because they weren't charged for, and that meant we didn't get paid to do them. It was in '88 that I went into the aftermarket and started learning everything else and again it was an epiphany. While I could work on the other manufacturers back then there was still a very clear learning curve with them and it took a lot of hard work both on the job and off it to advance. But all of that was nothing compared to what we run into today. Every car that comes in the door now has the potential to be a completely unique experience, it wasn't like that thirty years ago. With all the money I have spent on scan tools and software I run into cars that I don't have everything that I need to complete the job. It sucks when I get it diagnosed only to find out that the module may need to be programmed or initialized and it isn't supported by my present tooling. When over $100K to date doesn't support what we need to do there is no choice but to stop, inform the customer of our findings and send him back to the dealer or to someone that specializes in their brand, No Charge. Sometimes customers describe issues with given vehicles that we know right away we can't help them and we turn them away and direct them to someone who can help them. As it is I see us supporting Ford, GM, and probably Honda and Toyota in the near future and then only basic stuff and interior and fuel control electronics. A few years later I'll have to decide if we cut down even more, if we are still around that is.

stever

While I could work on the other manufacturers back then there was still a very clear learning curve with them and it took a lot of hard work both on the job and off it to advance.

I think there will be guys like you twenty years down the road too. Not sure it makes sense from a business standpoint though. But complexity? I think a blower resistor printed on a circuit is less complex than a one with "actual" resistors or coils soldered on a board. It's not cost effective to repair either kind if they blow.

Cars do seem impossibly complex, but they are just a bunch of systems working together. If your brakes are mushy, you focus on that system, not on the fuel injection. That's what's nice about OBD - it helps techs cut to the chase.

qbrozen

With all the money I have spent on scan tools and software I run into cars that I don't have everything that I need to complete the job. It sucks when I get it diagnosed only to find out that the module may need to be programmed or initialized and it isn't supported by my present tooling.

I just can't imagine trying to own a shop these days that isn't specialized. And even then, things are changing all the time, new tools are needed, etc. You are trying to keep up with a dealership budget at a lower hourly rate and with less exposure. Looking from the outside, it seems like a horrible business proposition to start up a new one today.

Maybe a classic car shop. That's about the only idea that makes sense to me. And when repair orders are light, you can buy, fix, and sell cars at the same time.

qbrozen

That's what's nice about OBD

yes... for those times when you can actually read it and read all of the systems, which is getting more and more rare, if not completely gone already.

I had to attempt 3 different OBDII scanners to find one that could read the CEL on our '08 Chrysler.

A BMW service advisor explained to me a little while ago that not even their dealership could read everything on my 135. According to him, there are 3 levels of access to the car, and they are only authorized the first 2 levels. Only a factory rep could access the 3rd.

stever

Right To Repair will fix that.

thecardoc3

Looking from the outside, it seems like a horrible business proposition to start up a new one today

To open a shop today you need to invest about $500,000 to get the doors open, and you'll still need deep enough pockets that you don't need to take a paycheck out of it for the first two to three years.

Maybe a classic car shop. That's about the only idea that makes sense to me. And when repair orders are light, you can buy, fix, and sell cars at the same time.

Many of these do reasonably well if you are a gifted body-man. The advantage is you are working with a specific group of clients, and not everyday consumers.

thecardoc3

Right To Repair will fix that.

Its been more than a year since it passed the legislature, and almost a year since the popular vote. The only thing they had that sounded like a solution was to force everything into the J2534 protocol and the problem is several manufacturers had already progressed way beyond the scope of that communication platform. That resulted in them negotiating that requirement back out and now to our knowledge there is nothing happening with the legislation other than to try and get more states into it and eventually the federal government. As the links for the Euro version of the law clearly show, they are very worried about parts. That's all the companies that support the legislation are worried about, that's all they were ever worried about. It's never really been about shops and helping us attain, let alone afford the tools and software.

xwesx

I'm not sure why this even crossed my mind this morning, but on my way to work I recalled that you (Doc) have mentioned in several posts related to diagnostics, that the end result was "no charge" to the customer. This is despite the fact that you were able to trace the problem to its source but lacked the specialized equipment to perform the final repair.

Why do you send the customer away with no charge? It's almost as if to say the diagnostic portion of the work, which is clearly the most important aspect here, has no value. I ask this because I have *never* left a shop without having to pay a bill when diagnostic work, fruitful or not, was performed. In fact, often times I strongly suspect that the only "work" that is done is simply plugging in the OBD interface, reading out any codes, and then shrugging and responding with, "I dunno; there's no code. That'll be our minimum diagnostic fee of $100."

Yet, in your case, you trace the problem, have all the necessary backup to prove the source, and move the customer up to the shop that can perform the final repair, and then value your role in the repair as "no charge." I mean, I understand that customers don't want to pay for something when it isn't fixed, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't, or that they are getting poor value if they do. If nothing else, you could charge them a nominal "stand-alone diagnostic fee" of $100 or so, and then reserve the "no charge" situations for those in which you were unable to trace the source of the issue. In other words, people should be agreeing to pay a minimum price, up front, for the time investment in the car. Any downward adjustment to include "no charge" in certain cases should be left to the shop as a matter of good customer service.

I'm sure you have a good reason for this not to be the case, and perhaps we've even covered it here before, but that was my musing for this morning nonetheless.

stever

Good question. I had to go out of town yesterday and I filled up on the way back. Ten miles later I slowed for my shortcut turn through the woods, hit a pothole and my CEL came on and I started getting some misfire action.

Called my shop this morning for an appointment and they said just bring it by today and we'll run the codes.

No mention of any charge just for the "look-see" (and there's no parts store near me who'd do that for free).

At least they'll recognize me as a regular when I show up, unlike Doc, who gets walk-ins (tow-ins?) off the street.

What say you Doc?

stever

Just got back from the shop - no charge but the reader couldn't connect either. Taking it in Wednesday.

thecardoc3

I'm not sure why this even crossed my mind this morning, but on my way to work I recalled that you (Doc) have mentioned in several posts related to diagnostics, that the end result was "no charge" to the customer. This is despite the fact that you were able to trace the problem to its source but lacked the specialized equipment to perform the final repair.

That means I have you thinking beyond what we write here. Yea, that's the way it is, once we take ownership of the vehicle's problem we take on all of the risk. I won't have a customer leave the building thinking that they paid for nothing.

When we have to send a vehicle back to the dealer, or to another specialist they have to do their own diagnostics and I won't have the customer paying for that twice. That way it isn't a problem for the second shop. The reverse is we have many times where someone calls up and they already have a diagnostic that suggests a bad module, that's a trap if we fall for it. If we just install the new module without proving it ourselves and that doesn't fix the car it doesn't matter what was agreed to in advance, we end up being the bad guy. Then even if we diagnose the failure and say we repair a broken or corroded wire the question lingers, did the customer get taken advantage of and get sold a part that they didn't need?

Why do you send the customer away with no charge? It's almost as if to say the diagnostic portion of the work, which is clearly the most important aspect here, has no value. I ask this because I have *never* left a shop without having to pay a bill when diagnostic work, fruitful or not, was performed.

It's the right thing to do. Its one thing to say that one is all for the customer, its another to live it, but it does extract a significant personal cost because nothing is free, someone paid for it somewhere. Through-out my career that has always been the tech that is the one who pays.

thecardoc3

At least they'll recognize me as a regular when I show up, unlike Doc, who gets walk-ins (tow-ins?) off the street.

What say you Doc?

I had a guy come into the shop yesterday that a year ago had us tow his Ranger pick-up to another shop. It was an easy diagnosis, the timing belt had broken and the other shop blew our estimate out of the water. The reason he came in now is his other truck is setting a large evaporative leak code and they have already replaced the fuel cap and the cannister vent valve and they think the PCM is bad but they can't handle that.

So here is the scenario playing out once again. Do we just install a PCM, program it and the theft deterrent system based on their diagnosis, or should we diagnose the failure first? If we spend time doing the diagnostics and it is in fact a bad PCM some people treat that as if they paid for something (the diagnostics)twice, is that fair to the customer if it works out that way? If it isn't the PCM and we just install it without doing the diagnostics, then those same people will feel they were taken advantage of too. We do get to be the hero's (to that customer) if we diagnose the problem and prove and resolve a wiring issue or some kind of a leak, however he has already proven to me that he won't be a permanent customer because he will jump for a cheaper price in a heartbeat.

Oh, BTW. The timing belt repair turned out to be more than just slap a belt on and ended up costing pretty much what I estimated in the end. (Except it cost more because of the second tow).

stever

Well, there's fair and there's "fair".

What would be more fair would be for the shop that couldn't diagnose the issue to refund the money. Ditto if the diagnosis was wrong. Getting back to your Xwesx reply, techs sure get a lot of flack for saying they couldn't reproduce the error, and it really steams people if they have to pay for that.

But I don't think you have to take ownership of a car necessarily. You can simply offer up the results of your diagnosis, and if the owner decides to take it to the cheaper place or have you fix it, you've earned your money with the diagnosis.

So let's go full circle, and say the tech's diagnosis is wrong, why shouldn't the customer get a refund?

(yeah, that's a softball lob - you want to take it or shall I continue? ).

thecardoc3

So let's go full circle, and say the tech's diagnosis is wrong, why shouldn't the customer get a refund?

He said / she said.. Is the problem a hard failure or intermittent? Was the module actually failed because the component or wiring issue took it out? etc. etc.

But I don't think you have to take ownership of a car necessarily.

Not the car, but the problem that the car is presented for.

So let's go full circle, and say the tech's diagnosis is wrong, why shouldn't the customer get a refund?

Answer that yourself but from the shops/techs point of view. You are the tech and you mistakenly condem the module so you have to give them all of the money back out of your own pocket. You don't actually have a choice either because its going to be a payroll deduction. (They get to keep the new module too). Your move.

stever

I don't think you own the problem either - you initially just diagnose it. It's up to the customer at that point to agree, disagree, get another opinion, authorize some work or get rid of the car. Or the tech can say that the problems looks like the confabulator but we don't work on those.

Fair would be to pay the shop for the diagnosis. That's really a separate job from the repair. But no one pays AutoZone for their "diagnoses".

Mr_Shiftright

I would never rely on some other shop's diagnosis, ESPECIALLY not for a bad PCM. The customer has to understand that they will pay for verification because how would they feel if you didn't verify, installed the PCM and it did not fix the problem? They'd be even madder, and out considerably more money.

sometimes I wonder if mechanic's training doesn't have the same fatal flaw as most teacher training. Teachers are *not* trained in how to control a classroom of kids, and mechanics are not trained in how to communicate with customers to avoid unpleasant misunderstandings.

thecardoc3

I don't think you own the problem either - you initially just diagnose it

You can claim semantics on that, but to understand the scale of the issue, as the shop/tech you take ownership of the vehicle's problem. That's the promise that we really are making.

Fair would be to pay the shop for the diagnosis

Fair is a very subjective word.

jayrider

"Fair is a very subjective word." So is "ownership" and "promise."

thecardoc3

"Fair is a very subjective word." So is "ownership" and "promise."

Not in the context as I used them.

srs_49

I think you should charge something for the diagnostic, even if you can't fix the problem.

You go to your GP complaining of tiredness, and he/she does some "diagnostics" and says "this is out of my league, I'm going to refer you to a cardiac specialist".

Your GP charges you/your insurance company for that visit, right?

Mr_Shiftright

Well if the GP spotted say a murmur or irregular heart beat, sure, you owe him, and if the mechanic really nails the problem by diagnosis but isn't equipped to fix it--let's say he really doesn't want to mess with the shifting solenoids on a 7 speed automatic transmission---I think he's entitled to a diagnostic fee--especially if he can point you to a reliable transmission specialist.

Of course the transmission specialist will verify the diagnosis, so yeah, you end up paying twice I guess---of course, mechanic #1 might have made specialist #2s job easier, especially if he provided a write-up.

thecardoc3

if the mechanic really nails the problem by diagnosis but isn't equipped to fix it--let's say he really doesn't want to mess with the shifting solenoids on a 7 speed automatic transmission---I think he's entitled to a diagnostic fee--especially if he can point you to a reliable transmission specialist

Have you ever heard someone say "Can't you just look at it", Or "Can you take it for a ride and tell me what's wrong?" Or "You're not going to charge me to just look at it are you?"

Picture this. Yesterday I get a call from a guy who a month ago asked me to put some time into checking out a truck that he had just bought and what I found was the engine was simply worn out and needed rebuilt/replaced. We gave him the estimate to replace it which he declined. He instead had someone else (not a shop) install the engine and now after two weeks of fighting it wants to tow it to me to fix it, apparently it barely runs now. This is another classic no-win situation now for us.

thecardoc3

Your GP charges you/your insurance company for that visit, right?

GP? You mean our family doctor? I wouldn't know who he is if I met him on the street, and that's no joke. I think I met him one time in the last ten years. The only other time I had a visit to the office I saw their nurse practioner. (sp?)

thecardoc3

I think you should charge something for the diagnostic, even if you can't fix the problem.

I'm waiting for Steve to debate this with you.

stever

Paying for a diagnostic fee is typical in lots of industries.

Paying for a wrong one is another matter.

thecardoc3

So what about all of the times that you have tried to state that it should be free, "because the customer is just trying to save themselves some money"?

Oh, almost forgot. What about when Mr. Reed was involved in that Sting with NBC and they praised shops that didn't charge to correctly diagnose that failed relay?

stever

I think I was referring to getting info from the net or the parts stores who read codes for free.

Going to the shop comes after that.

Then you rinse and repeat to try to see if the shop's diagnosis makes sense.

That said, I can email my doc and get a free "diagnosis". Sometimes the answer is "come in for an office visit". Ditto my mechanic or a dealer. Lots of lawyers give free consultations, and contractor bids are usually free. Plenty of examples for either option.

jayrider

This guy declines your estimate on the job--- goes elsewhere ---- the car won't run -- wants you to fix it ? Why is this a no-win situation for you ? He made his bed and now he gets to sleep in it. Are you telling me you would actually agree to get involved ? Please Doc, say it ain't so.

thecardoc3

Nice guys finish where?

I'm wrong if I turn him away, just ask him he will tell you and everyone else and it's easy to see that it's wrong if I don't. Keep in mind he doesn't need to offer all of the details and he can tell the story as he see's fit to anyone that he wants to.

On one hand there isn't anything that they could have done or that has occurred here that would be tough for me to figure out but that doesn't make it fair. (There's that four letter word again) On the other hand my experience should have generated the entire repair to support my business and he wouldn't be in the situation that he is in right now. But again just like the other stories it comes down to him saving himself some money and that's all that matters..........Right Steve?

thecardoc3

In relating to auto repair shops and techs, is this ever explained to the readers or represented in that manner to the viewing public? Or would you say that's conveniently left vague so that we only have to deal with the discrepancies?

jayrider

So, have you set up an appointment to help this dude out ? If you have, you are way beyond "nice guy" and closing in on sainthood.

thecardoc3

He's set to come in on Monday. There is no way to get to fair from here so it feels more like martyrdom than sainthood.

You know it kind of feels like it did when Angie's list wanted me to pay to be one of their featured shops, and then give their users a discount on top of that.

jayrider

Maybe he will bring some oil and a filter from Walmart so you can change them -- I mean, it is already on the lift and it might save him a few bucks.
There is no way I could look you in the eye after that stunt. Sounds like it's SOP for you.