A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

thecardoc3

Maybe he will bring some oil and a filter from Walmart so you can change them

Yea he might as well, there are those who think that is a perfectly OK thing to do too........

There is no way I could look you in the eye after that stunt.
But, but,, its all about him saving himself some money. I should just be grateful for what I get....(sarc)

Mr_Shiftright

Too bad you can't operate like a certain classic car restoration shop does in my area (they prepare cars for Pebble Beach).

They have a sign on the wall:

"It'll cost a fortune and it'll take forever...any other questions?"

xwesx

I can understand your perspective, especially regarding the diagnostics. However, I think that the amount of diagnosis documentation you perform is, by itself, valuable both to the owner and to a future shop that would perform the repair, so there's just no way I would send customers like this off without any fee whatsoever. You may not recoup the time and effort you put into it, but you'd also not be left entirely out to dry.

As a customer, I want value. But, value does not equal free unless it is an exceptional circumstance. So, if you diagnose an issue and provide documentation of it, but say, "This is the problem, here's how we know it is the problem, but our shop is not equipped to perform the repair for these reasons. We recommend this shop to perform the repair; provide them with this documentation and have them give us a call if they have any concerns," how is that not valuable? What customer could reasonably say that you did nothing for them?

It's a tough balance to strike, I'm sure. My concern is simply that if a precedent is set to not charge for conclusive diagnostics in the absence of a repair, then how in the world is anyone going to be convinced that diagnostics are even important? Yes, there are pitfalls to any conclusion and one size never fits all.

thecardoc3

You may not recoup the time and effort you put into it, but you'd also not be left entirely out to dry.

Both of those work towards driving someone out of business, one of them just does it a little quicker.

So, if you diagnose an issue and provide documentation of it, but say, "This is the problem, here's how we know it is the problem, but our shop is not equipped to perform the repair for these reasons.

The next question that has been asked is "Why did you take it in if you're not equipped to deal with it completely?" Then it turns into you're the bad guy for wasting their time since thy have top take it somewhere else.

We recommend this shop to perform the repair; provide them with this documentation and have them give us a call if they have any concerns," how is that not valuable?

That's a great question, maybe Mr. Reed can answer it.

What customer could reasonably say that you did nothing for them?

Any of them who don't understand what really went into coming up with the answer, after all doesn't Google have all of the answers already?

It's a tough balance to strike, I'm sure. My concern is simply that if a precedent is set to not charge for conclusive diagnostics in the absence of a repair, then how in the world is anyone going to be convinced that diagnostics are even important? Yes, there are pitfalls to any conclusion and one size never fits all.

It's been a major war to get people to see value in doing diagnostics when we do fix the car. We still get asked "Do I have to pay for the diagnostics if I give you the OK on the repair?"

xwesx

Hahahahahaha; okay, I get it. People are cheap. I know that as well as anyone, but I also know that when I make the decision to take my car to a shop for a repair, I'm prepared to pay for the service. Just because there are people out there who are not, doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for the decision they already made.

Secondly, though, in response to the question, "Why did you take it in if you're not equipped to deal with it completely?", is that if you already notified the potential customer that you cannot handle certain repairs on that make due to proprietary equipment, etc., and the person still has you diagnose it, you've already CYA on that one. Plus, you could simply come back with the response that you WANT to repair the car - that's the only way you generate any profit (and even then, it's not a given apparently) on the deal - but your diagnostics pinpointed part X as the culprit, and part X can only be replaced by a service center with proprietary tool Y. Even then, they're getting a deal because the issue is now diagnosed and the person only paid $100 to get there. If you had been able and authorized to repair, the cost would be repair + full diagnostics, increasing the diag. fee to its actual time cost of Z hours.

So, broken down the customer pays:

Car repaired (or could be repaired, but customer declines): Full diagnostic time
Problem diagnosed, car requires specialized (referral) repair: $100
Could not reliably diagnose: No Charge

thecardoc3

Hahahahahaha; okay, I get it. People are cheap.

LOL. No argument there, I just hate when they do everything imaginable to make it our fault.

Even then, they're getting a deal because the issue is now diagnosed and the person only paid $100 to get there.

It should be that easy, but it turns right back around to someone, even if its the second shop asking that question, why did they touch it if they couldn't finish it? That engine job is the parallel example. The guy who has installed the engine clearly isn't trained and equipped to do the job or else it would be running correctly, but he took it on anyway, and for profit. (Or at least something that he thinks is profit, either way it's obviously income that is never going to be shown to the tax man.) Normally you'd hear about these stories if he had been successful and fixed the truck for a dollar less than we would have done it and he would be lauded as a hero. I'm betting this is the first time anyone but us has looked that close at the other side of one of these events like this.

No matter what the truck owner and that DIY'er still got to have our cake and eat it too, but they did leave us some of the crumbs.......

jayrider

Do you spend your entire week working with people trying to shift negativity, blame and bad will your way ? What percentage of your customers trust your judgement and skill to service their ride and pay without accusing you of overcharging ?

stever

And assuming you take MC/VISA, how many chargebacks do you get Doc? Or bounced checks?

xwesx

It should be that easy, but it turns right back around to someone, even if its the second shop asking that question, why did they touch it if they couldn't finish it?

I think you've said before that shops have sent you work where, after diagnosing, you had to send the customer right back because the problem wasn't something your shop could actually remedy. They KNOW why you touched it when you couldn't finish it (e.g., it is not known whether or not the job is "finishable" until the problem is determined). If the outcome was known before the diagnosis began, there wouldn't be any need to diagnose it.

I'm not trying to be cynical or toss around negativity here. If there really is such a lack of goodwill within the trade as well as within the customer base, all parties deserve the inevitable outcome of that relationship.

thecardoc3

What percentage of your customers trust your judgement and skill to service their ride and pay without accusing you of overcharging

Seriously, better than 99%.

There is a difference between what I have with my regular customers today and what the average shop has come through their door. Today none of my regular customers would do that, but there was a time that twenty percent of the customers might have tried.

jayrider

So 1% of your customers cause 99% of your headaches. Just like my classroom when I was teaching. Nothing new in that arrangement ---- maybe you ought to sell a few used cars on the side. Great money and very few problems. My roommate in college lived in Frackville, Pa. his Dad opened a car repair shop after WWII and started selling cars he would buy and fix up along with the auto repair business. Did well through the 50's,60's and 70's. if you bought a car from him, he would fix it as long as you owned it --no labor charge just parts. Sent his son through dental school and his daughter through college. Different cars and different times.

thecardoc3

We had one guy write us a bad check, it was his first visit to us and that made sure it was going to be his last. My Choice. Seems he has a bit of a habit of doing that.

We have never had a credit card charge back.

bolivar

Did you put any parts on his car? You might be able to put a lien on his car.

thecardoc3

I'm not trying to be cynical or toss around negativity here. If there really is such a lack of goodwill within the trade as well as within the customer base, all parties deserve the inevitable outcome of that relationship.

There has always been too much testosterone in the trade. I think you should be able to recall several posters here who feel their occasional weekend exposures are sufficient for them to strut their stuff, and question the abilities of real techs. Meanwhile, there is so much more to know than they understand, that they don't even know that they don't know.

Which reminds me, check out this call for help.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0627d/1159

The dealer had it and logged a thousand miles, and the customer got it back and it acted up in fifty. That figures.....

Could I actually help that poster?
Sure if I had the car and could spend all the time that it could require me to do so. But I can't earn a living while I do it, and I have little doubt that some of the dealer tech(s) have lost quite a few productive hours by putting time against that car. Imagine the most difficult work you ever have to perform on the job and when you have to do it, you don't get paid for it.

I started writing an answer to them but within a few sentences I realized that I was talking about steps that they had no way to give me the answers for. The dealer techs would likely have already covered all of the things that I would need to be seeing, but that doesn't mean they documented it sufficiently to pass that information on. They also very likely utilized technical assistance who can authorize tossing some parts and that did not result in a solution. The only way to beat a problem like that is patience, and developing a solid game plan for it.

There are only a few hundred techs in the country that could/would efficiently deal with that vehicle, that's not an exaggeration.

BTW the other shops that I routinely do work for understand the rules and appreciate the fact that I can take care of the alligators for them. There are some shops that are off of the list because they tried to play the game two ways, cut-throat the easy stuff, attempt the hard stuff and then they expected me to bail them out. In some cases they were hi-jacking cars that were supposed to come to me, but since they were doing the towing took advantage of the situation. When those situations ate their lunch and then they brought me the car that was supposed to come to me in the first place they got dismissed.

thecardoc3

Did you put any parts on his car? You might be able to put a lien on his car.

No. Towed it in, repaired the wiring harness damage for the crank sensor and he was on his way for $180.

Pa. Doesn't have a mechanics lien law. In fact we cannot legally hold someone's car for payment. They can simply report it as stolen, and then when the cop shows up we have to release the car to them and then file a civil case. But write us a bad check and that's theft by deception and after following the certified letter routine we can turn it over to the local police and they handle it from there. Generally that means they get XX days to pay up or the police file charges.

srs_49

"Which reminds me, check out this call for help.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0627d/1159

The dealer had it and logged a thousand miles, and the customer got it back and it acted up in fifty. That figures..... "

Based on information in that post, I would look at power and ground connections to the instrument cluster, or maybe the PCM/BCM - whatever drives the instrument cluster lights. Symptoms sure are consistent with some sort of intermittent in the wiring.

xwesx

My thought too, but there's a helluva lot of wiring in that car!

Mr_Shiftright

You want weird? How weird is this?:

" have 06 Chrysler Sebring Convertable. Heat and a/c work fine until I turn headlights on. A/c or heat goes to defroster.

When headlights are turned, a/c or heat goes to defrost and stays there until light are turned off. Then goes back to selected setting."

HVAC module? First step, scan for codes?

Seems to me if it were overall system voltage drop, we'd see other symptoms, but none reported.

thecardoc3

Thats not all that weird and with it being repeatable would be simple to figure out. The first question however is whether the car is built with a manual AC system or Automatic. That's going to make a big difference in the diagnostic approach.

If it is Automatic, any codes that would set would be in the body computer and they can be retrived by first setting the temperature to 75f, then you push and hold the Floor, Mix, and Defrost buttons simultaneously and release them when the display changes. The system will then run a self test and display any current or stored codes. If I was going to start the diagnostics this way I would run the test first without the lights on, and then rerun it with them on and watch for any change.

A scan tool would of course make this much easier, and the DRBIII fully supports this car.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah I told him to get some codes pulled first off. So with automatic AC, you are also suspicious of the HVAC module?

thecardoc3

Based on information in that post, I would look at power and ground connections to the instrument cluster, or maybe the PCM/BCM - whatever drives the instrument cluster lights. Symptoms sure are consistent with some sort of intermittent in the wiring

There are four data networks in that car, Keyword 2000 which is stricly for communication between the ECM/TCM and EBCM and the scan tool.

High speed CAN which carries communication between the ECM/BCM/EBCM/and the TCM.

Class 2 Data Bus which supports the BCM/IPC/PSCM/SRS/and VCIM with the scan tool

Low speed bus which supports communication for the Radio and the digital radio receiver and scan tool

The illumination of any of the warning lamps can be caused by the system setting a fault code and they are commanded on, or if the instrument cluster loses communication with a given module. The class 2 message monitor in the TechII scan tool would constantly monitor the network for state of health messages, which the IPC is on, but a number of the modules involved are on another data bus and that means the BCM which is the gateway has to be sending the information to it for lamp contol.

You're really not going to do anything with this system without the factory scan tool. I would also be connecting my ALDL breakout box and my PICO to that to monitor the actual communication signal voltages and waveforms.

If a module is losing its ground connection, that would show in its communication wave form biasing high from ground. A module losing its power input can usually be seen in the scan data for that module under the IGN "X" pid.

That's what you need to know to choose how to approach the first step. There is no real reason to speculate beyond this until you have some failure activity and from measuring it have a sense of direction.

thecardoc3

Not suspicious at all yet. The most likely cross issues could have to do with the dash lighting, the BCM or even a voltage drop from the headlight current on the rad support. (Other circuits potentially related to the HVAC might ground there too) Those ideas however are meaningless without something measured to support them. Scan data would likely reveal some clues.

Mr_Shiftright

So, Doc, how do you handle "could not duplicates"? I saw a problem posted in Answers about a Subaru, where the dashboard, radio and lights disappear during a start up----if you drive a while, or re-start, they come back on. This has only happened 5X in a year. Whenever they go to the dealer, the car performs perfectly, so they say "we can't repair what isn't there".

How would you handle such a situation?

jayrider

Cardoc Do you do pre purchase inspections for used cars and how much do you charge ?

thecardoc3

My typical routine for something like that is that I bring the car in and get a good baseline on the system(s) involved and make sure that I have efficient testing points identified. Then provided the customer is close enough to my shop (and I'm home and not out teaching somewhere) the customer calls when the car acts up and if it's a no-start condition I go to the car with my equipment or in this case if the car is mobile I have them come directly to me and I drop what I am doing and go right to work on that condition. Now because I have pre-chosen testing points I typically can cover a lot of ground in a very short time frame.

On some really tough ones I will add tag wires that allow me to measure tough to reach circuits on certain components. I have also made LED boards and wired them into the cars so that the customer can call me when the condition occurs and they can tell me what lamps are lit and which ones are not.

No matter what the number one thing you need is patience, the number two thing is a solid game plan. Quite often with a problem like that Subaru I have to keep in mind that dash illumination generally is main powered by the same circuit that powers the marker lamps, so I would confirm that with a schematic, and then have the customer immediately check and find out if the marker lamps are also out when the failure occurs. From there I'd have to see how each of those components handle background lighting and concentrate the testing on what's common to them first.

thecardoc3

For my regular customers I do them all the time and the price goes from nothing to a little under $50 depending on just how close they want me to look at things. My general approach is to make sure everything on the car works, get it in the air so that I can see the body from that angle to check for evidence of major repairs, check the brakes and suspension and then really just drive it and see what I feel.

I have the customer drive the car at least thirty miles in various operating conditions to first of all allow them enough time to really get used to the car and maybe start to notice any symptoms or warning lamps and then I put another ten or so on it with them.

The things I concentrate on would be something like if it had major engine work done are all the wiring harnesses correctly back in their support brackets and routed properly or are they simply just sloppily hanging around on top of the engine. It doesn't matter if it had major work done as long as it is quality workmanship, but if its sloppy that's a big red flag.

I check for sand and other debris in locations that most people either don't think of cleaning or simply can't reach. Sand and debris is a strong indicator for potential flood damage, and my bore scope lets me see places people would never think of looking.

Ultimately my goal is to make sure they get a good car that won't be a nightmare for them or me. If I get it wrong I'm the person that would be stuck fighting with everything to make the thing right so there is a lot of incentive there to make sure they don't buy me a nightmare.

Mr_Shiftright

" I have also made LED boards and wired them into the cars so that the customer can call me when the condition occurs and they can tell me what lamps are lit and which ones are not. "

that's pretty slick!

Well obviously a dealership is not going to do any of that for a customer.

Mr_Shiftright

You have to be careful doing PPIs....there is liability for you in that. I'd recommend that you make the customer sign a short disclaimer.

One thing some mechanics might not know about PPIs is that legally, you are letting a deceptive seller off the hook.

Claiming that a 3rd party inspected the car, and that therefore, the buyer did not rely solely on the claims of the seller, is an excellent defense against used car fraud.

thecardoc3

You have to be careful doing PPIs....there is liability for you in that. I'd recommend that you make the customer sign a short disclaimer

Correct, and that's why I do them for my regular customers, but not for anyone else. I had a guy call about an internet purchase of a Prius that he wanted inspected before purchase. I declined and advised that he use a dealership for that.

99.9% of what we do starts with a vehicle owner noticing and then reporting a symptom. A used vehicle inspection, any vehicle inspection for that matter uses only visual clues and physical measurements and then a short drive during which any number of random issues could simply not occur and therefore would not be detected.

The common idea that a used car dealer who is selling a car knows everything that is wrong with it isn't completely accurate. I know several very good guys who make their living selling used cars and they do everything reasonable to detect and solve problems before someone buys one of their cars and occasionally something slips through undetected, that's just cars being cars.

One thing some mechanics might not know about PPIs is that legally, you are letting a deceptive seller off the hook

Pa. came out with an extensive reconstructed vehicle inspection a few years back and they initially expected everyone of us to sign on and do them. I stepped right up and said no-way was I going to do inspections like that for exactly the reason that you state. The state rep told me that I had to as an inspection station, and I fired right back, no I don't. I'm not a body-man, and someone who tries hard enough could potentially hide something from me. Between that and a few other potential issues the state backed down and made it optional. So far I haven't heard of anyone getting into a situation that had them get burned for doing those inspections but better them than me if it ever happens.

Claiming that a 3rd party inspected the car, and that therefore, the buyer did not rely solely on the claims of the seller, is an excellent defense against used car fraud.

Caveat Emptor. When inspecting a used car I hand the customer a list of what I found wrong in a few minutes. It clearly states other problems may exist but they have not been discovered yet and it may take a few weeks and a number of miles for any symptoms to be discovered, and that's on the cars that I judge to be good. On the ones that I don't like I hand the customer the same list of what I found wrong and tell them that even if all of these things were fixed I still wouldn't buy it. The choice is always still up to them.

My computer guy wanted a BMW Convertible this summer and I nixed two of them before he found one that I said OK to.

roadburner

So I took the 2004 X3 to the dealer to have the cooling system rebuilt(radiator, water pump, thermostat, and upper and lower hoses- after eight years and 156k miles it was way overdue). When I fired it up the left xenon bulb died- that's what I get for not replacing them both when I had the time, but I digress.

Anyway, the tech noticed that the vapor separator and it's associated hoses were looking the worse for wear- one hose was partially collapsed and filled with oil. The vapor separator is BMW's fiendishly complex PCV system which-when it fails-can actually flood the cylinders with oil. While replacing those components it was discovered that the intake boot between the MAF and the intake was also split and it was duly replaced as well.

Needless to say, I'm blessed to have a dealer shop that knows what they are doing. Next up is the MS3- which just last week threw a "Low Coolant Temperature" CEL. Luckily my Mazda dealer's service department is also excellent, so I'll let them tackle it next week when it goes in for a scheduled service.

After that I only have to R&R the aforementioned bulb on the X3 and find time to put the Koni FSDs on the MS3- after which my Visa and I can rest for a few months.
Hopefully...

obyone

Am I missing something? I read and reread your post and still haven't connected the dots to....A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood.

Maybe you can help me on this?

I assume you've 5 starred these dealers on Edmund's version of yelp for dealer service departments?

roadburner

I have been taken to task in this thread for having the temerity to criticize incompetent "professional" technicians who make inexplicable errors- like the shop that removed the oil filler cap and left it on the fenderwell when all the shop was supposed to do was mount and balance one tire. It has also been implied that my low tolerance for shoddy work means that I am impossible to please.
Accordingly, I praise the shops that do good work in addition to excoriating the shops that drop the ball.
I also do a fair bit of wrenching myself- see the xenon reference- I have previously related how I misdiagnosed the bulb failure in the right headlamp...

obyone

That's what i thought.

BTW did you 5 star those dealers?

roadburner

Yes.

thecardoc3

http://answers.edmunds.com/question-My-95-Honda-Accord-turning-won-start-179940.- aspx

jayrider

That's easy, the answer wasn't written by you.

stever

It's obvious spam - next time please click the Report It link and we'll get to it faster.

ray80

I am by no means a technician, but part of the answer appears to be spam and I don't believe spam is good for any vehicle

( I type slower then Steve)

thecardoc3

Sorry, I keep forgetting that someone who actually fixes cars for a living knows anything at all about them compared to someone like you. Of course you knew right away that it was spam. (and the other one too)

roadburner

So...
I took the Mazdaspeed 3 to the dealer to get the CEL checked and have the oil and coolant changed. As I predicted, the thermostat was bad. Funny thing- the advisor said that they needed to update the PCM(Mazda-speak for "engine computer") when they changed the t-stat. I didn't ask why, but they didn't charge extra. While I had it there I had them change the rear pads- they only had a few thousand miles left in them and I didn't want to have to deal with replacing them in the middle of winter. Surprisingly, the rotors were within spec. Pads that last 130,800 miles and rotors that last over a quarter of a million miles; not bad... Since a Mazda dealer performed the work, the pads are guaranteed for as long as I own the car- a moot point probably...

I was planning to just wait on the car, but I ended up having to rent a car because I had an emergency assignment in Northern KY. I rented through the Mazda dealer, but when I came to pick my car up my advisor told me that they would cover the rental cost 100%. Nice!!!

jayrider

I was actually only pinching your shoes with that wisecrack. Wasn't sure if you would see it that way but I guess I know now. I have great respect for gifted people in any profession, especially those who solve problems others can't. I hold those who choose to teach others in their field in even higher regard. And by the way, I had no idea that that was spam. The pinnacle of my mechanical skill set was changing spark plugs in my 75 VW Rabbit. They were all lined up in the front and I was quite proud of myself at the time.
So if you took offense at my comment (you appear to have) so be it. I still enjoy reading your posts.

imidazol97

>click the Report It link...

There's a "Report It" link? It dpesn't show on my page.

thecardoc3

So if you took offense at my comment (you appear to have) so be it.

Only mildy as in it was worth kicking back....If y'a want to dish it out, y'a gotta be willing to get some back from time to time.

You might not have gotten to read that one before Steve nixed it that's about the only reason that it wouldn't have been recognized as spam. I think the Chinese to English convertor they must have used needs a little work. (It was so bad it was comical IMO) The answer they had on another "question" included a link to a site that is selling cloned scan tools which means they are running on "stolen" software. Shutting down someone like that is important for not only the original developers and owners for the IP, but for the people who play by the rules.

stever

Yep, the link is highlighted in this pic.

Often you don't have to read the post for content to spot the spam - the embedded links are usually the giveaway. Seems like we've been getting one or two OBDII spams a day just in Answers lately.

xwesx

Sounds like it was a great experience overall! We had an excellent experience with our Forester when it developed a really bad oil leak on our transcontinental trip a couple months ago. We were able to get it in to a dealership in Washington (state) when we stopped in nearby NE Oregon for a few days. They were convinced it was probably the oil filter given how bad the leak was and how quickly it developed (both by my description). I was confident that this was not the case, but also joked with them that it would serve me right if it was.

Well, they found out it was not the filter, but also proved to be quite competent at both pinpointing and repairing the problem in short order (had it there at about 0715, and we were on our way back to camp by 1500). I had to pay for the rental car we used that day, but it was only $50 and both the service advisor at the dealership and the Enterprise representative were absolutely top notch from start to finish.

If all experiences were so pleasant, owners would invent excuses to take their cars to the shop! Well, that *might* be a stretch.... :P

stever

"The entire drive unit... gets put into a box and shipped off."

Ominous Noise Fixed

Mr_Shiftright

Good luck getting a straight answer out of them.

stever

Oops, the unit got lost in shipment. :shades:

thecardoc3

Is this a big deal or something?

When you had techs that could rebuild everything bumper to bumper the pressure to be cheaper and cheaper served to not reward the techs for learning how to work on all of those different systems. Statements like "You'll be happy when the hood gets welded shut" were all about not having to pay shops/techs to fix the cars at all. Meanwhile as the work kept getting ever more technical in nature every other breath was still about doing whatever someone could to avoid going to a shop. The pushing of the cheap code pullers and encouragement of the consumers to simply toss a few parts was (and still is portraited.) as if thats what the top techs do.

How many times in this very thread did I see you post about someday they will simply swap out the whole engine/transmission assembly? (paraphrased) Well you won. You got what you wanted. The only thing left for you to do is post on that thread and gloat about not having to pay a tech to diagnose and repair that car. Their people have enough training to replace the assembly. That's what you always wanted, why is it supposed to be wrong now?

Mr_Shiftright

Doc, I think you have to view the technicians as the consumer's second line of defense. The consumer certainly has every right to "give it a try"--it's HIS VEHICLE and he paid for it!!! -----this does not imply contempt for the trained technician. If anything, being humbled in one's efforts at DIY would afford the technician who solves the problem even greater respect.

It's a bit narcissistic to think that every action that does not include oneself is somehow a comment upon one's worth.