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Yea he might as well, there are those who think that is a perfectly OK thing to do too........
There is no way I could look you in the eye after that stunt.
But, but,, its all about him saving himself some money. I should just be grateful for what I get....(sarc)
They have a sign on the wall:
"It'll cost a fortune and it'll take forever...any other questions?"
As a customer, I want value. But, value does not equal free unless it is an exceptional circumstance. So, if you diagnose an issue and provide documentation of it, but say, "This is the problem, here's how we know it is the problem, but our shop is not equipped to perform the repair for these reasons. We recommend this shop to perform the repair; provide them with this documentation and have them give us a call if they have any concerns," how is that not valuable? What customer could reasonably say that you did nothing for them?
It's a tough balance to strike, I'm sure. My concern is simply that if a precedent is set to not charge for conclusive diagnostics in the absence of a repair, then how in the world is anyone going to be convinced that diagnostics are even important? Yes, there are pitfalls to any conclusion and one size never fits all.
Both of those work towards driving someone out of business, one of them just does it a little quicker.
So, if you diagnose an issue and provide documentation of it, but say, "This is the problem, here's how we know it is the problem, but our shop is not equipped to perform the repair for these reasons.
The next question that has been asked is "Why did you take it in if you're not equipped to deal with it completely?" Then it turns into you're the bad guy for wasting their time since thy have top take it somewhere else.
We recommend this shop to perform the repair; provide them with this documentation and have them give us a call if they have any concerns," how is that not valuable?
That's a great question, maybe Mr. Reed can answer it.
What customer could reasonably say that you did nothing for them?
Any of them who don't understand what really went into coming up with the answer, after all doesn't Google have all of the answers already?
It's a tough balance to strike, I'm sure. My concern is simply that if a precedent is set to not charge for conclusive diagnostics in the absence of a repair, then how in the world is anyone going to be convinced that diagnostics are even important? Yes, there are pitfalls to any conclusion and one size never fits all.
It's been a major war to get people to see value in doing diagnostics when we do fix the car. We still get asked "Do I have to pay for the diagnostics if I give you the OK on the repair?"
Secondly, though, in response to the question, "Why did you take it in if you're not equipped to deal with it completely?", is that if you already notified the potential customer that you cannot handle certain repairs on that make due to proprietary equipment, etc., and the person still has you diagnose it, you've already CYA on that one. Plus, you could simply come back with the response that you WANT to repair the car - that's the only way you generate any profit (and even then, it's not a given apparently) on the deal - but your diagnostics pinpointed part X as the culprit, and part X can only be replaced by a service center with proprietary tool Y. Even then, they're getting a deal because the issue is now diagnosed and the person only paid $100 to get there. If you had been able and authorized to repair, the cost would be repair + full diagnostics, increasing the diag. fee to its actual time cost of Z hours.
So, broken down the customer pays:
Car repaired (or could be repaired, but customer declines): Full diagnostic time
Problem diagnosed, car requires specialized (referral) repair: $100
Could not reliably diagnose: No Charge
LOL. No argument there, I just hate when they do everything imaginable to make it our fault.
Even then, they're getting a deal because the issue is now diagnosed and the person only paid $100 to get there.
It should be that easy, but it turns right back around to someone, even if its the second shop asking that question, why did they touch it if they couldn't finish it? That engine job is the parallel example. The guy who has installed the engine clearly isn't trained and equipped to do the job or else it would be running correctly, but he took it on anyway, and for profit. (Or at least something that he thinks is profit, either way it's obviously income that is never going to be shown to the tax man.) Normally you'd hear about these stories if he had been successful and fixed the truck for a dollar less than we would have done it and he would be lauded as a hero. I'm betting this is the first time anyone but us has looked that close at the other side of one of these events like this.
No matter what the truck owner and that DIY'er still got to have our cake and eat it too, but they did leave us some of the crumbs.......
I think you've said before that shops have sent you work where, after diagnosing, you had to send the customer right back because the problem wasn't something your shop could actually remedy. They KNOW why you touched it when you couldn't finish it (e.g., it is not known whether or not the job is "finishable" until the problem is determined). If the outcome was known before the diagnosis began, there wouldn't be any need to diagnose it.
I'm not trying to be cynical or toss around negativity here. If there really is such a lack of goodwill within the trade as well as within the customer base, all parties deserve the inevitable outcome of that relationship.
Seriously, better than 99%.
There is a difference between what I have with my regular customers today and what the average shop has come through their door. Today none of my regular customers would do that, but there was a time that twenty percent of the customers might have tried.
We have never had a credit card charge back.
There has always been too much testosterone in the trade. I think you should be able to recall several posters here who feel their occasional weekend exposures are sufficient for them to strut their stuff, and question the abilities of real techs. Meanwhile, there is so much more to know than they understand, that they don't even know that they don't know.
Which reminds me, check out this call for help.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0627d/1159
The dealer had it and logged a thousand miles, and the customer got it back and it acted up in fifty. That figures.....
Could I actually help that poster?
Sure if I had the car and could spend all the time that it could require me to do so. But I can't earn a living while I do it, and I have little doubt that some of the dealer tech(s) have lost quite a few productive hours by putting time against that car. Imagine the most difficult work you ever have to perform on the job and when you have to do it, you don't get paid for it.
I started writing an answer to them but within a few sentences I realized that I was talking about steps that they had no way to give me the answers for. The dealer techs would likely have already covered all of the things that I would need to be seeing, but that doesn't mean they documented it sufficiently to pass that information on. They also very likely utilized technical assistance who can authorize tossing some parts and that did not result in a solution. The only way to beat a problem like that is patience, and developing a solid game plan for it.
There are only a few hundred techs in the country that could/would efficiently deal with that vehicle, that's not an exaggeration.
BTW the other shops that I routinely do work for understand the rules and appreciate the fact that I can take care of the alligators for them. There are some shops that are off of the list because they tried to play the game two ways, cut-throat the easy stuff, attempt the hard stuff and then they expected me to bail them out. In some cases they were hi-jacking cars that were supposed to come to me, but since they were doing the towing took advantage of the situation. When those situations ate their lunch and then they brought me the car that was supposed to come to me in the first place they got dismissed.
No. Towed it in, repaired the wiring harness damage for the crank sensor and he was on his way for $180.
Pa. Doesn't have a mechanics lien law. In fact we cannot legally hold someone's car for payment. They can simply report it as stolen, and then when the cop shows up we have to release the car to them and then file a civil case. But write us a bad check and that's theft by deception and after following the certified letter routine we can turn it over to the local police and they handle it from there. Generally that means they get XX days to pay up or the police file charges.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0627d/1159
The dealer had it and logged a thousand miles, and the customer got it back and it acted up in fifty. That figures..... "
Based on information in that post, I would look at power and ground connections to the instrument cluster, or maybe the PCM/BCM - whatever drives the instrument cluster lights. Symptoms sure are consistent with some sort of intermittent in the wiring.
" have 06 Chrysler Sebring Convertable. Heat and a/c work fine until I turn headlights on. A/c or heat goes to defroster.
When headlights are turned, a/c or heat goes to defrost and stays there until light are turned off. Then goes back to selected setting."
HVAC module? First step, scan for codes?
Seems to me if it were overall system voltage drop, we'd see other symptoms, but none reported.
If it is Automatic, any codes that would set would be in the body computer and they can be retrived by first setting the temperature to 75f, then you push and hold the Floor, Mix, and Defrost buttons simultaneously and release them when the display changes. The system will then run a self test and display any current or stored codes. If I was going to start the diagnostics this way I would run the test first without the lights on, and then rerun it with them on and watch for any change.
A scan tool would of course make this much easier, and the DRBIII fully supports this car.
There are four data networks in that car, Keyword 2000 which is stricly for communication between the ECM/TCM and EBCM and the scan tool.
High speed CAN which carries communication between the ECM/BCM/EBCM/and the TCM.
Class 2 Data Bus which supports the BCM/IPC/PSCM/SRS/and VCIM with the scan tool
Low speed bus which supports communication for the Radio and the digital radio receiver and scan tool
The illumination of any of the warning lamps can be caused by the system setting a fault code and they are commanded on, or if the instrument cluster loses communication with a given module. The class 2 message monitor in the TechII scan tool would constantly monitor the network for state of health messages, which the IPC is on, but a number of the modules involved are on another data bus and that means the BCM which is the gateway has to be sending the information to it for lamp contol.
You're really not going to do anything with this system without the factory scan tool. I would also be connecting my ALDL breakout box and my PICO to that to monitor the actual communication signal voltages and waveforms.
If a module is losing its ground connection, that would show in its communication wave form biasing high from ground. A module losing its power input can usually be seen in the scan data for that module under the IGN "X" pid.
That's what you need to know to choose how to approach the first step. There is no real reason to speculate beyond this until you have some failure activity and from measuring it have a sense of direction.
How would you handle such a situation?
On some really tough ones I will add tag wires that allow me to measure tough to reach circuits on certain components. I have also made LED boards and wired them into the cars so that the customer can call me when the condition occurs and they can tell me what lamps are lit and which ones are not.
No matter what the number one thing you need is patience, the number two thing is a solid game plan. Quite often with a problem like that Subaru I have to keep in mind that dash illumination generally is main powered by the same circuit that powers the marker lamps, so I would confirm that with a schematic, and then have the customer immediately check and find out if the marker lamps are also out when the failure occurs. From there I'd have to see how each of those components handle background lighting and concentrate the testing on what's common to them first.
I have the customer drive the car at least thirty miles in various operating conditions to first of all allow them enough time to really get used to the car and maybe start to notice any symptoms or warning lamps and then I put another ten or so on it with them.
The things I concentrate on would be something like if it had major engine work done are all the wiring harnesses correctly back in their support brackets and routed properly or are they simply just sloppily hanging around on top of the engine. It doesn't matter if it had major work done as long as it is quality workmanship, but if its sloppy that's a big red flag.
I check for sand and other debris in locations that most people either don't think of cleaning or simply can't reach. Sand and debris is a strong indicator for potential flood damage, and my bore scope lets me see places people would never think of looking.
Ultimately my goal is to make sure they get a good car that won't be a nightmare for them or me. If I get it wrong I'm the person that would be stuck fighting with everything to make the thing right so there is a lot of incentive there to make sure they don't buy me a nightmare.
that's pretty slick!
Well obviously a dealership is not going to do any of that for a customer.
One thing some mechanics might not know about PPIs is that legally, you are letting a deceptive seller off the hook.
Claiming that a 3rd party inspected the car, and that therefore, the buyer did not rely solely on the claims of the seller, is an excellent defense against used car fraud.
Correct, and that's why I do them for my regular customers, but not for anyone else. I had a guy call about an internet purchase of a Prius that he wanted inspected before purchase. I declined and advised that he use a dealership for that.
99.9% of what we do starts with a vehicle owner noticing and then reporting a symptom. A used vehicle inspection, any vehicle inspection for that matter uses only visual clues and physical measurements and then a short drive during which any number of random issues could simply not occur and therefore would not be detected.
The common idea that a used car dealer who is selling a car knows everything that is wrong with it isn't completely accurate. I know several very good guys who make their living selling used cars and they do everything reasonable to detect and solve problems before someone buys one of their cars and occasionally something slips through undetected, that's just cars being cars.
One thing some mechanics might not know about PPIs is that legally, you are letting a deceptive seller off the hook
Pa. came out with an extensive reconstructed vehicle inspection a few years back and they initially expected everyone of us to sign on and do them. I stepped right up and said no-way was I going to do inspections like that for exactly the reason that you state. The state rep told me that I had to as an inspection station, and I fired right back, no I don't. I'm not a body-man, and someone who tries hard enough could potentially hide something from me. Between that and a few other potential issues the state backed down and made it optional. So far I haven't heard of anyone getting into a situation that had them get burned for doing those inspections but better them than me if it ever happens.
Claiming that a 3rd party inspected the car, and that therefore, the buyer did not rely solely on the claims of the seller, is an excellent defense against used car fraud.
Caveat Emptor. When inspecting a used car I hand the customer a list of what I found wrong in a few minutes. It clearly states other problems may exist but they have not been discovered yet and it may take a few weeks and a number of miles for any symptoms to be discovered, and that's on the cars that I judge to be good. On the ones that I don't like I hand the customer the same list of what I found wrong and tell them that even if all of these things were fixed I still wouldn't buy it. The choice is always still up to them.
My computer guy wanted a BMW Convertible this summer and I nixed two of them before he found one that I said OK to.
Anyway, the tech noticed that the vapor separator and it's associated hoses were looking the worse for wear- one hose was partially collapsed and filled with oil. The vapor separator is BMW's fiendishly complex PCV system which-when it fails-can actually flood the cylinders with oil. While replacing those components it was discovered that the intake boot between the MAF and the intake was also split and it was duly replaced as well.
Needless to say, I'm blessed to have a dealer shop that knows what they are doing. Next up is the MS3- which just last week threw a "Low Coolant Temperature" CEL. Luckily my Mazda dealer's service department is also excellent, so I'll let them tackle it next week when it goes in for a scheduled service.
After that I only have to R&R the aforementioned bulb on the X3 and find time to put the Koni FSDs on the MS3- after which my Visa and I can rest for a few months.
Hopefully...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Maybe you can help me on this?
I assume you've 5 starred these dealers on Edmund's version of yelp for dealer service departments?
Accordingly, I praise the shops that do good work in addition to excoriating the shops that drop the ball.
I also do a fair bit of wrenching myself- see the xenon reference- I have previously related how I misdiagnosed the bulb failure in the right headlamp...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
BTW did you 5 star those dealers?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
( I type slower then Steve)
I took the Mazdaspeed 3 to the dealer to get the CEL checked and have the oil and coolant changed. As I predicted, the thermostat was bad. Funny thing- the advisor said that they needed to update the PCM(Mazda-speak for "engine computer") when they changed the t-stat. I didn't ask why, but they didn't charge extra. While I had it there I had them change the rear pads- they only had a few thousand miles left in them and I didn't want to have to deal with replacing them in the middle of winter. Surprisingly, the rotors were within spec. Pads that last 130,800 miles and rotors that last over a quarter of a million miles; not bad... Since a Mazda dealer performed the work, the pads are guaranteed for as long as I own the car- a moot point probably...
I was planning to just wait on the car, but I ended up having to rent a car because I had an emergency assignment in Northern KY. I rented through the Mazda dealer, but when I came to pick my car up my advisor told me that they would cover the rental cost 100%. Nice!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-2021 Sahara 4xe-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So if you took offense at my comment (you appear to have) so be it. I still enjoy reading your posts.
There's a "Report It" link? It dpesn't show on my page.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Only mildy as in it was worth kicking back....If y'a want to dish it out, y'a gotta be willing to get some back from time to time.
You might not have gotten to read that one before Steve nixed it that's about the only reason that it wouldn't have been recognized as spam. I think the Chinese to English convertor they must have used needs a little work. (It was so bad it was comical IMO) The answer they had on another "question" included a link to a site that is selling cloned scan tools which means they are running on "stolen" software. Shutting down someone like that is important for not only the original developers and owners for the IP, but for the people who play by the rules.
Often you don't have to read the post for content to spot the spam - the embedded links are usually the giveaway. Seems like we've been getting one or two OBDII spams a day just in Answers lately.
Well, they found out it was not the filter, but also proved to be quite competent at both pinpointing and repairing the problem in short order (had it there at about 0715, and we were on our way back to camp by 1500). I had to pay for the rental car we used that day, but it was only $50 and both the service advisor at the dealership and the Enterprise representative were absolutely top notch from start to finish.
If all experiences were so pleasant, owners would invent excuses to take their cars to the shop! Well, that *might* be a stretch.... :P
Ominous Noise Fixed
When you had techs that could rebuild everything bumper to bumper the pressure to be cheaper and cheaper served to not reward the techs for learning how to work on all of those different systems. Statements like "You'll be happy when the hood gets welded shut" were all about not having to pay shops/techs to fix the cars at all. Meanwhile as the work kept getting ever more technical in nature every other breath was still about doing whatever someone could to avoid going to a shop. The pushing of the cheap code pullers and encouragement of the consumers to simply toss a few parts was (and still is portraited.) as if thats what the top techs do.
How many times in this very thread did I see you post about someday they will simply swap out the whole engine/transmission assembly? (paraphrased) Well you won. You got what you wanted. The only thing left for you to do is post on that thread and gloat about not having to pay a tech to diagnose and repair that car. Their people have enough training to replace the assembly. That's what you always wanted, why is it supposed to be wrong now?
It's a bit narcissistic to think that every action that does not include oneself is somehow a comment upon one's worth.