No excuses here...I hate excuses...but I think the revolving door of CEO's didn't help this matter at GM. Like I said on another forum, I don't know what the problem at Toyota was.
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@circlew said:
A 2015 GMC Yukon burst into flames while on a test drive in Anaheim, CA on Sunday after smoke filled the cabin. Residents of the neighborhood where the driver abandoned the redesigned Yukon reported hearing a series of small explosions (likely the tires, based on the video), according to a report from KTLA and The Los Angeles Times.
Rut ro... Although the current (soon to be last gen) Escalade had a few fires when it debuted as well so maybe there is some commonality in the engine dept.
Or since these school buses are so large, and it looks like there may be an entrance to a driveway hiding behind all that mass, maybe there is a Cruze hiding behind it that caught fire first and this was merely a victim... J/K...
Amazing that this incident grabbed a 3 minute slot on the news...
Please see Odyssey fire above, for which 900K were recalled.
Pretty ingenuous, how the article you linked from leftlanenews talks about the Toyota coverup, and GM isn't even mentioned, only Toyota... but you describe it as "...after the GM coverup". Please re-read the article.
Nice 'flaming'...appropriate here, even I'll admit.
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@uplanderguy said:
No excuses here...I hate excuses...but I think the revolving door of CEO's didn't help this matter at GM. Like I said on another forum, I don't know what the problem at Toyota was.
Perhaps concern over "Loss of face". Or just wanting to get to #1 and not have anything mess that up?
I beleive Pontiac's real breakout year was 1959 with the "Wide Track" and iconic split grille styling. Prior to 1955, I heard Pontiac as being a car for your spinster aunt.
My wife had a 2001 Impala she bought new and her Dad bought a new 2003 Impala he was so impressed with her ride. I don't recall either car being particularly troublesome. The 2006 Impala did greatly improve the interior, but the styling was unremarkable. It was like "The Return of the Lumina." The 2014 Impala is a quantum leap over both. I only wish they'd have brought back the triple taillights and had an available V-8.
@uplanderguy said:
That first paragraph is pretty dopey, really. I think the recall is the worst one at GM in decades, but it doesn't affect me (although there are three Cobalts in my driveway right now since my daughter's boyfriend is here, and the recall doesn't apply to any of the three), and thus, since I have enjoyed my GM's and trust my dealer, the recall in no way whatsoever by itself would make me go elsewhere. But then, as I'm fond of saying, I'd have bought a new Studebaker in '64.
Heck, I'd have bought a new senior Packard in 1955 or 1956!
@lemko said:
Ibv Prior to 1955, I heard Pontiac as being a car for your spinster aunt.
That's a good description of what I observed long ago as to the type of buyer for Pontiac in the 50s.
The Oldsmobiles were for youthful, sporty, active, up-and-coming folks. Buick owners had more money and bathed in the luxury of a Buick but didn't buy a Cadillac because of the additional costs. Doctors also had primarily Buicks as their car that the public saw for the "house calls" and driving to the office.
I was in a hospital parking garage for my wife's back injections this morning. I always notice the cars the doctors park because on the way to the exit is a level of doctor only parking. I usually see lots of BMWs, toyota Lexus/regular toyota, GM SUVs, and an occasional Mercedes. Today, there was a Maserati with 47 on the trunk. Different. No Porsches today.
This parking garage is not a complete sample of the doctors. There's another parking garage closer to the surgery in the main hospital. This one connects at one end where the hospital has lots of offices for doctors who are associated with the hospital. But I find it's interesting. On the other hand, I also sit in a corridor rather than the waiting room for the pain injection/surgery office. I can see the doctor's entrance to the other parking garage and watch what the people with those passes drive in.
Closest to a Buick for the doctors is an Enclave. Never a LaCrosse.
“I’ll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one." But bankruptcy is the equivalent eh? Well, maybe. Maybe not. Robert Reich quote and op ed from Forbes
@Stever@Edmunds said:
“I’ll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one." But bankruptcy is the equivalent eh? Well, maybe. Maybe not.
I'll believe Unions are people and should be able to continue to contribute huge amounts of money to their friends in government when one of the Unions is executed.
I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be something called the Orphan Car Club. I remember going to one of their meets back in 1991 or 1992 with the DeSoto.
Back then though, I think the last domestic car to achieve orphan status was Studebaker, so a lot of those cars were pretty obscure and out of the ordinary. Hudsons, Nashes, Studebakers, Packards, a couple of DeSotos, etc. I don't think they let Imperial in, because at that point Chrysler was using the name again.
Today though, I don't think such a club would be quite as interesting though, because you could add Plymouth, Mercury, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac to that list, and they're all still pretty common at car shows. Not to mention Saturn and Hummer. Just think...once the 2015 model year rolls around, the first Saturns will be 25 model years old!
I work with a 66-year old car guy who has never owned anything but a Ford (but like me, has driven a bunch of other stuff over the years). I said to him just recently, "Can you imagine if twenty-five years ago, someone said to you that there'd be no Plymouth, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Mercury?". We both concluded that we'd have said, "You're full of ****!".
I was thinking what would be my favorite DeSoto to own...I do like the tall taillight fixtures with the round lights inside (which was '57-59, right) but I could like a '61 DeSoto. I never thought the two-tiered grille was that bad, it's rare, and I like that general bodystyle. It's funny, I detest the canted headlights on the Lincolns, but I don't mind it on the Chryslers. It's probably the rest of the Lincolns, too, that I don't like!
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Well, you get back to defining terms. For example, you can go to Black's and find this:
A trade union is a "combination or association of men employed in the same trade."
A corporation is "an artificial person."
The other fun exercise is to net search "union leader jailed" and "corporate director jailed". Don't see any US hits for the latter in a quick look.
Does anyone really think jail time is an option for anyone at GM? The latest is that the engineers figured everyone stalling would be able to safely coast to the shoulder.
When corporate leaders are held to any real level of accountability, then corporations can be called people. Let me know when the guillotines are finally dusted off.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
“I’ll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one." But bankruptcy is the equivalent eh? Well, maybe. Maybe not
Maybe a 58 DeSoto hardtop could be nice, the late Packardbaker hardtops and wagons are cool in a weird way, too.
@uplanderguy said:
Boy, I'd like a '56 Nomad too fintail, but you wouldn't be part of the exclusive Packard-Studebaker-DeSoto club of the three of us! LOL
With the Cobalt/Ion, can those cars be quickly re-started once they cut off? Back when my 2000 Intrepid started cutting off at random, the first time it did it, I had no idea what the problem was, so I coasted to the shoulder, put it in neutral, turned it back to acc and then to start, and it fired right up. After that, I learned to be quick about it, and could get it re-started almost immediately, although one time it cut off on a sharp exit ramp, and that was a bit scary.
It got to the point that I could get it turned back on so quickly that it almost became like second nature. But then the problem started getting worse, so I finally had to get it fixed.
I had my '79 New Yorker out for a spin on Sunday, and it stalled out when making a sharp left turn. But, a quick pop into neutral, a twist of the key, and it fired right back up.
I have no idea, but then again, neither of our two or my daughter's boyfriend's one is part of the recall. The key setup doesn't appear any different to me than other cars I've had...on the surface.
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@uplanderguy said: The key setup doesn't appear any different to me than other cars I've had...on the surface.
The article seems to be sensationalizing the idea that bumping the lock cylinder area is going to cause the key to turn off. I couldn't reach the lock cylinder with my knee if I were 6'6".
I think were need to have NASA do a study. :grin Right after they find the Malaysian airplane that's missing.
Or we can sue the UAW for causing this problem and covering it up during their demand for money and power during the bankruptcy that the administration performed. :grin
Seems like the difference between the SUA of Toyota and the GM recall is that we still don't really don't have one thing responsible for the SUA - we have operator error, gas pedals, floor mats and various other conspiracy theories, like tin whiskers. GM knew about the ignition switch years ago but apparently only made one running change to the switch a few years ago.
I do think that with the bankruptcy and multiple changes in CEO, this got muddied more than it normally would have. Toyota had nothing of that nature to muck it up. Still, both things are terrible and I would expect GM to get a fine not unlike Toyota's record-setting one of last week.
As usual, the lopsidedness of some people's posts...even giddy glee about things....makes me think Edmunds should have a staff psychiatrist on hand.
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"GM knew about the ignition switch years ago but apparently only made one running change to the switch a few years ago."
Dexcool, ISS failures on numerous cars and trucks that are still being sold today, Power Steering problems on numerous starting in the early 2000's that didn't rear their ugly heads until a Fed Probe in 2010, etc. etc.
Sounds familiar...
My buddy was a Service mgr. for a large Buick/GMC dealer in NH and we get together maybe twice a month for a few beers and a game of Pool, so I got all to hear all those stories when we got together. Things that would make you cringe and never drive an automobile at all, let alone some the POS that those clowns at GM were pushing. Sure, there were things that were fixed "behind the scenes" that nobody knew about all the flipping time. There isn't enough bandwidth to list the crap he told me about but to stay on point, heck, ignition switches were problems on Cavaliers going back to the 80's, never mind the Cobalts and Ions.
But lets just say that after 2 ( well 1 and a half because he dumped the second cheap to a co-worker) "LEMON" GMC Sierras, he no longer works for them, even with a full service dept and a crew of techs to fix them (at less than dealer cost btw).
Guilty conscience? Sure, lets go with that
Still has his 2007? Tundra 5/7L Crewmax tho and as of St. Patty's day it's still running great and hasn't produced any problems (Or ones that he has actually been vocal about) and his wifes' (Ironically) "Pristine" Sienna minivan for his 4 kids (which was acquired after his 3rd or 4th ISS failure on the former Chevy "Burb") is still there as well. I don't see Toyota losing him as a customer the same way that "other" company did. But hey, maybe he needs to work their service dept. some day
"The recall problems, while tragic and a high profile, are likely to be relatively contained. The issue should have limited impact on the company's sales and profits."
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I had two Cavaliers, both with well over 100K miles. I can tell you, I would have heard about ignition switch problems years ago since I follow the industry. As mentioned previously, personally, I did not experience Dexcool issues, since I changed mine as recommended. Sometimes, BS needs to be called. Early-2000 power steering issues not addressed until 2010? What models were those? Rather loosey-goosey with facts.
ISS's were an issue, and GM sued their supplier about it. But, it's a GM problem if it's in a GM vehicle, that is for sure, no argument. I owned a '99, two '02's, an '05, and an '08, and I never had the issue. I haven't even heard of a problem with one in a car newer than '08, and that may even be an exaggeration in terms of it being too new.
I am glad your friend's Tundra isn't of the era where frames were rusting in half.
The youngest service writer at my Chevy dealer came from a Honda store. He said they were always beat up there on warranty costs and virtually never covered anything outside of warranty. He said the current dealer is much better with that.
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@andre1969 said:
With the Cobalt/Ion, can those cars be quickly re-started once they cut off? Back when my 2000 Intrepid started cutting off at random, the first time it did it, I had no idea what the problem was, so I coasted to the shoulder, put it in neutral, turned it back to acc and then to start, and it fired right up. After that, I learned to be quick about it, and could get it re-started almost immediately, although one time it cut off on a sharp exit ramp, and that was a bit scary.
The first time it happened, she was on a two lane road and went to the shoulder and restarted the car. The second time, she was on I-25 in the middle of Denver doing 55 .. she put the car in neutral and restarted it on the fly.
The second time it happened, my wife decided she wasn't taking it back to school after the weekend. That's when we got her the MINI and I started driving the ION. I put 60K on it in 3 1/2 years without the problem occurring again. The key did eventually get stuck in the ignition and I had to have it replaced.
I'm hoping to get reimbursed from GM for the cost of that repair .... $228.
Yes, typical comments from non-car people talking about their '67 and '75 models. You are right, though, that those people are out there too.
The side-terminal battery comments humor me some, as I don't know anyone now who has had an original battery as long as I have in my six-year-old Cobalt which sits out all the time. I planned on replacing it and had it tested, and the guy said, "I wouldn't replace that battery, look at this reading".
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@tlong Reading the comments at the end of that article is a better cross section of society than this board. Very revealing.
Many newspapers and internet places have stopped allowing posting just because it brings out all the kooks. Oh wait. That was your point, wasn't it? LOL
I think any competent driver should be able to control a car with the key suddenly switched off, but I could also conceive of rare situations where this could happen at a time that would make recovery very tricky.
@imidazol97 said:
tlong Reading the comments at the end of that article is a better cross section of society than this board. Very revealing.
Many newspapers and internet places have stopped allowing posting just because it brings out all the kooks. Oh wait. That was your point, wasn't it? LOL
No argument that there are a lot of kooks out there!
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I think any competent driver should be able to control a car with the key suddenly switched off, but I could also conceive of rare situations where this could happen at a time that would make recovery very tricky.
Yes on both counts.
1 - There are a probably a small number of situations where loss of ignition could be pretty dangerous. I suppose there might be hundreds or thousands of cases where ignitions actually shut off, but relatively few (but bad) accidents.
2 - We know that a lot of drivers aren't competent when something goes unusual, even though they might be ok in normal situations.
I don't think it's very reasonable to expect any driver to be able to recover from even the most minor operational aberration as long as the main requirements for obtaining a DL is to show up at the DMV and be breathing.
@lemko said:
I beleive Pontiac's real breakout year was 1959 with the "Wide Track" and iconic split grille styling. Prior to 1955, I heard Pontiac as being a car for your spinster aunt.
One can quibble over which year was the breakout year, but 1955 and 1959 were both breakout years, albeit in different ways. The 1955 put "stodgy" in the rear view mirror while in 1959 "Wide Track" differentiated Pontiac from it's GM siblings. It also differentiated it from competing domestic brands. From the standpoint of the engine, the 1955 was all-new, whereas the engine of the 1959 was pretty much a carryover from 1958.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I think any competent driver should be able to control a car with the key suddenly switched off, but I could also conceive of rare situations where this could happen at a time that would make recovery very tricky.
Key point being "COMPETENT" driver! I almost T-boned a Mercury Mountaineer the other day on the way into work when the driver put on his right turn signal, pulled over to the side as if to let me pass, and then suddenly did a U-turn right in front of me!
I think cars stalling out are sort of the same situation as flat tires...neither happens very often nowadays, so on the rare event that it does occur, it comes as a shock.
In my case, I've never had a high-speed blow-out. I did have a rear tire blow out on my '68 Dart, about 19 years ago, but I was only doing around 45 mph on a 2-lane road with a wide shoulder. No big deal. I've had tires go flat since then, but as a result of a slow leak. So coming out to a flat tire in the parking lot at work is a different story than having a high-speed blowout.
Something else I'm curious about...how do modern cars with electric steering act when the power gets cut? I've driven more old cars with failed power steering than I'd care to admit, and they were really only a problem in tight maneuvering, such as making a sharp turn from a dead stop, trying to parallel park, etc. But I imagine that nose-heavy FWD cars with wider tires might be more difficult. And, while back in the day the steering ratio of a power steering car was quicker than a non-power steering, I think they've made the ratios on modern cars even tighter.
something else I've wondered...with an older car that has drum brakes all around, but with a power assist, when you lose power, is it any harder to stop than an all-drum car that was non-power to begin with? I've only had two old cars that are all-drum, but with power...my '57 DeSoto and '67 Catalina. And I've never had either cut out on me at high speed. The Catalina usually only stalls out if I try to put it in gear too soon when it's warming up. And the DeSoto only stalled out at low speeds.
I know with disc/drum setups, power assist is almost mandatory. And I imagine all-drum setups need it even more.
The biggest car I ever had with non-power brakes was a 1967 Newport hardtop coupe with a 383-2bbl. It was drum all around, and easy to stop. Even more telling, it had been owned by a petite little old lady before I had it, so that's proof right there you didn't need a lot of effort to stop those old all-drum cars. Just don't put them through too many panic stops in a row on a hot summer day. Or get them wet. Or, feed them after midnight I guess...
Good question. All three of my Studebakers were drum; two were power. All had a split (dual-chamber) master cylinder. The '64 had no power assist and it had been decades since I'd driven a non-power-brake car..really had the feel of needing to 'stand on it'.
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@andre1969 said:
something else I've wondered...with an older car that has drum brakes all around, but with a power assist, when you lose power, is it any harder to stop than an all-drum car that was non-power to begin with? I've only had two old cars that are all-drum, but with power...my '57 DeSoto and '67 Catalina. And I've never
I believe the mechanical advantage between the leverage of movement on the brake pedal vs how far the brake cylinders moved was better on the cars with no power brakes. So stopping them wasn't as difficult as stopping a modern vehicle with a power assist and the mechanical advantage (displacement of the brake master cylinder volume compared to the movement at each wheel cylinder) reduced because of the power assist.
Drum brakes also were designed with a dig in movement where the front band's pressing against the drum moved the pair of bands in a way that swedges the rear band against the drum harder than just the force from the wheel cylinder's pressure would do. I suspect that mechanical assist also was reduced because of the power assist being there to help. The assist was enhanced by proper choice of material on the front band that made it grip the drum harder to help amplify the swedging effect.
I would worry about stopping a car with 4-wheel disc brakes and I tried that with my leSabre when the toyotas were being struck by the mystery disease that toyota never admitted to the real additional cause for beyond floor mats, accelerator movement sensors, and the tin foil hats they pretended anyone else had to be wearing except them. I could stop my heavy leSabre as well as steer it with the engine off AND I could stop it with the engine at full throttle at 50 mph.
@imidazol97 said:
I would worry about stopping a car with 4-wheel disc brakes and I tried that with my leSabre when the toyotas were being struck by the mystery disease that toyota never admitted to the real additional cause for beyond floor mats
LOL, I tried a few experiments when that was going on, as well. Although, all I did was stomp the gas pedal to simulate sudden acceleration, and then put the car in neutral. I was impressed that my 2000 Intrepid was "smart" enough to cut the revs immediately. Even though it was floored, it made no difference.
I also tried it with my uncle's '97 Silverado, but it revved up when I put it in neutral, so I guess it wasn't as "smart".
Comments
No excuses here...I hate excuses...but I think the revolving door of CEO's didn't help this matter at GM. Like I said on another forum, I don't know what the problem at Toyota was.
anything, do you believe Toyota hid anything, or only GM? Your handle hints at the answer.
Rut ro... Although the current (soon to be last gen) Escalade had a few fires when it debuted as well so maybe there is some commonality in the engine dept.
Or since these school buses are so large, and it looks like there may be an entrance to a driveway hiding behind all that mass, maybe there is a Cruze hiding behind it that caught fire first and this was merely a victim... J/K...
Amazing that this incident grabbed a 3 minute slot on the news...
Please see Odyssey fire above, for which 900K were recalled.
Pretty ingenuous, how the article you linked from leftlanenews talks about the Toyota coverup, and GM isn't even mentioned, only Toyota... but you describe it as "...after the GM coverup". Please re-read the article.
Nice 'flaming'...appropriate here, even I'll admit.
Wonder if the salesman used the old "so can I do the paperwork on it" line when they got back to tags dealership?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Perhaps concern over "Loss of face". Or just wanting to get to #1 and not have anything mess that up?
I beleive Pontiac's real breakout year was 1959 with the "Wide Track" and iconic split grille styling. Prior to 1955, I heard Pontiac as being a car for your spinster aunt.
My wife had a 2001 Impala she bought new and her Dad bought a new 2003 Impala he was so impressed with her ride. I don't recall either car being particularly troublesome. The 2006 Impala did greatly improve the interior, but the styling was unremarkable. It was like "The Return of the Lumina." The 2014 Impala is a quantum leap over both. I only wish they'd have brought back the triple taillights and had an available V-8.
Heck, I'd have bought a new senior Packard in 1955 or 1956!
Make mine a Scottish Heather and white '56 Four-Hundred hardtop!
Lemko, as they say, you and I'd be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with our choices of 'back then' cars!
I'd be right there with you guys, considering I probably would've sprung for a DeSoto!
A new car for me in 1956 - maybe a Nomad, Sierra Gold on Adobe Beige, I've always liked that combo on that car. Or if I was rich, a 300SL gullwing.
That's a good description of what I observed long ago as to the type of buyer for Pontiac in the 50s.
The Oldsmobiles were for youthful, sporty, active, up-and-coming folks. Buick owners had more money and bathed in the luxury of a Buick but didn't buy a Cadillac because of the additional costs. Doctors also had primarily Buicks as their car that the public saw for the "house calls" and driving to the office.
I was in a hospital parking garage for my wife's back injections this morning. I always notice the cars the doctors park because on the way to the exit is a level of doctor only parking. I usually see lots of BMWs, toyota Lexus/regular toyota, GM SUVs, and an occasional Mercedes. Today, there was a Maserati with 47 on the trunk. Different. No Porsches today.
This parking garage is not a complete sample of the doctors. There's another parking garage closer to the surgery in the main hospital. This one connects at one end where the hospital has lots of offices for doctors who are associated with the hospital. But I find it's interesting. On the other hand, I also sit in a corridor rather than the waiting room for the pain injection/surgery office. I can see the doctor's entrance to the other parking garage and watch what the people with those passes drive in.
Closest to a Buick for the doctors is an Enclave. Never a LaCrosse.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
“I’ll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one." But bankruptcy is the equivalent eh? Well, maybe. Maybe not. Robert Reich quote and op ed from Forbes
Boy, I'd like a '56 Nomad too fintail, but you wouldn't be part of the exclusive Packard-Studebaker-DeSoto club of the three of us! LOL
I'll believe Unions are people and should be able to continue to contribute huge amounts of money to their friends in government when one of the Unions is executed.
Same thing, isn't it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be something called the Orphan Car Club. I remember going to one of their meets back in 1991 or 1992 with the DeSoto.
Back then though, I think the last domestic car to achieve orphan status was Studebaker, so a lot of those cars were pretty obscure and out of the ordinary. Hudsons, Nashes, Studebakers, Packards, a couple of DeSotos, etc. I don't think they let Imperial in, because at that point Chrysler was using the name again.
Today though, I don't think such a club would be quite as interesting though, because you could add Plymouth, Mercury, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac to that list, and they're all still pretty common at car shows. Not to mention Saturn and Hummer. Just think...once the 2015 model year rolls around, the first Saturns will be 25 model years old!
I work with a 66-year old car guy who has never owned anything but a Ford (but like me, has driven a bunch of other stuff over the years). I said to him just recently, "Can you imagine if twenty-five years ago, someone said to you that there'd be no Plymouth, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Mercury?". We both concluded that we'd have said, "You're full of ****!".
I was thinking what would be my favorite DeSoto to own...I do like the tall taillight fixtures with the round lights inside (which was '57-59, right) but I could like a '61 DeSoto. I never thought the two-tiered grille was that bad, it's rare, and I like that general bodystyle. It's funny, I detest the canted headlights on the Lincolns, but I don't mind it on the Chryslers. It's probably the rest of the Lincolns, too, that I don't like!
Well, you get back to defining terms. For example, you can go to Black's and find this:
A trade union is a "combination or association of men employed in the same trade."
A corporation is "an artificial person."
The other fun exercise is to net search "union leader jailed" and "corporate director jailed". Don't see any US hits for the latter in a quick look.
Does anyone really think jail time is an option for anyone at GM? The latest is that the engineers figured everyone stalling would be able to safely coast to the shoulder.
When corporate leaders are held to any real level of accountability, then corporations can be called people. Let me know when the guillotines are finally dusted off.
Maybe a 58 DeSoto hardtop could be nice, the late Packardbaker hardtops and wagons are cool in a weird way, too.
Which is what my daughter did the two times the ION stopped running on her.
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With the Cobalt/Ion, can those cars be quickly re-started once they cut off? Back when my 2000 Intrepid started cutting off at random, the first time it did it, I had no idea what the problem was, so I coasted to the shoulder, put it in neutral, turned it back to acc and then to start, and it fired right up. After that, I learned to be quick about it, and could get it re-started almost immediately, although one time it cut off on a sharp exit ramp, and that was a bit scary.
It got to the point that I could get it turned back on so quickly that it almost became like second nature. But then the problem started getting worse, so I finally had to get it fixed.
I had my '79 New Yorker out for a spin on Sunday, and it stalled out when making a sharp left turn. But, a quick pop into neutral, a twist of the key, and it fired right back up.
I have no idea, but then again, neither of our two or my daughter's boyfriend's one is part of the recall. The key setup doesn't appear any different to me than other cars I've had...on the surface.
The article seems to be sensationalizing the idea that bumping the lock cylinder area is going to cause the key to turn off. I couldn't reach the lock cylinder with my knee if I were 6'6".
I think were need to have NASA do a study. :grin Right after they find the Malaysian airplane that's missing.
Or we can sue the UAW for causing this problem and covering it up during their demand for money and power during the bankruptcy that the administration performed. :grin
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Seems like the difference between the SUA of Toyota and the GM recall is that we still don't really don't have one thing responsible for the SUA - we have operator error, gas pedals, floor mats and various other conspiracy theories, like tin whiskers. GM knew about the ignition switch years ago but apparently only made one running change to the switch a few years ago.
I do think that with the bankruptcy and multiple changes in CEO, this got muddied more than it normally would have. Toyota had nothing of that nature to muck it up. Still, both things are terrible and I would expect GM to get a fine not unlike Toyota's record-setting one of last week.
As usual, the lopsidedness of some people's posts...even giddy glee about things....makes me think Edmunds should have a staff psychiatrist on hand.
Recall isn't GM's biggest problem
money.cnn.com/2014/03/25/news/companies/gm-recall-problem/index.html?iid=EL
"GM knew about the ignition switch years ago but apparently only made one running change to the switch a few years ago."
Dexcool, ISS failures on numerous cars and trucks that are still being sold today, Power Steering problems on numerous starting in the early 2000's that didn't rear their ugly heads until a Fed Probe in 2010, etc. etc.
Sounds familiar...
My buddy was a Service mgr. for a large Buick/GMC dealer in NH and we get together maybe twice a month for a few beers and a game of Pool, so I got all to hear all those stories when we got together. Things that would make you cringe and never drive an automobile at all, let alone some the POS that those clowns at GM were pushing. Sure, there were things that were fixed "behind the scenes" that nobody knew about all the flipping time. There isn't enough bandwidth to list the crap he told me about but to stay on point, heck, ignition switches were problems on Cavaliers going back to the 80's, never mind the Cobalts and Ions.
But lets just say that after 2 ( well 1 and a half because he dumped the second cheap to a co-worker) "LEMON" GMC Sierras, he no longer works for them, even with a full service dept and a crew of techs to fix them (at less than dealer cost btw).
Guilty conscience? Sure, lets go with that
Still has his 2007? Tundra 5/7L Crewmax tho and as of St. Patty's day it's still running great and hasn't produced any problems (Or ones that he has actually been vocal about) and his wifes' (Ironically) "Pristine" Sienna minivan for his 4 kids (which was acquired after his 3rd or 4th ISS failure on the former Chevy "Burb") is still there as well. I don't see Toyota losing him as a customer the same way that "other" company did. But hey, maybe he needs to work their service dept. some day
From your link:
"The recall problems, while tragic and a high profile, are likely to be relatively contained. The issue should have limited impact on the company's sales and profits."
I had two Cavaliers, both with well over 100K miles. I can tell you, I would have heard about ignition switch problems years ago since I follow the industry. As mentioned previously, personally, I did not experience Dexcool issues, since I changed mine as recommended. Sometimes, BS needs to be called. Early-2000 power steering issues not addressed until 2010? What models were those? Rather loosey-goosey with facts.
ISS's were an issue, and GM sued their supplier about it. But, it's a GM problem if it's in a GM vehicle, that is for sure, no argument. I owned a '99, two '02's, an '05, and an '08, and I never had the issue. I haven't even heard of a problem with one in a car newer than '08, and that may even be an exaggeration in terms of it being too new.
I am glad your friend's Tundra isn't of the era where frames were rusting in half.
The youngest service writer at my Chevy dealer came from a Honda store. He said they were always beat up there on warranty costs and virtually never covered anything outside of warranty. He said the current dealer is much better with that.
The first time it happened, she was on a two lane road and went to the shoulder and restarted the car. The second time, she was on I-25 in the middle of Denver doing 55 .. she put the car in neutral and restarted it on the fly.
The second time it happened, my wife decided she wasn't taking it back to school after the weekend. That's when we got her the MINI and I started driving the ION. I put 60K on it in 3 1/2 years without the problem occurring again. The key did eventually get stuck in the ignition and I had to have it replaced.
I'm hoping to get reimbursed from GM for the cost of that repair .... $228.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I had to replace an ignition switch on my 57 Ford. Guess I'll have to go back and sue?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As you know I think, I grew up GM but I'd take a '57 Ford over a '57 Chevy any day of the week!
Reading the comments at the end of that article is a better cross section of society than this board. Very revealing.
Yes, typical comments from non-car people talking about their '67 and '75 models.
You are right, though, that those people are out there too.
The side-terminal battery comments humor me some, as I don't know anyone now who has had an original battery as long as I have in my six-year-old Cobalt which sits out all the time. I planned on replacing it and had it tested, and the guy said, "I wouldn't replace that battery, look at this reading".
@tlong Reading the comments at the end of that article is a better cross section of society than this board. Very revealing.
Many newspapers and internet places have stopped allowing posting just because it brings out all the kooks. Oh wait. That was your point, wasn't it? LOL
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think any competent driver should be able to control a car with the key suddenly switched off, but I could also conceive of rare situations where this could happen at a time that would make recovery very tricky.
No argument that there are a lot of kooks out there!
Yes on both counts.
1 - There are a probably a small number of situations where loss of ignition could be pretty dangerous. I suppose there might be hundreds or thousands of cases where ignitions actually shut off, but relatively few (but bad) accidents.
2 - We know that a lot of drivers aren't competent when something goes unusual, even though they might be ok in normal situations.
I don't think it's very reasonable to expect any driver to be able to recover from even the most minor operational aberration as long as the main requirements for obtaining a DL is to show up at the DMV and be breathing.
With the currency manipulation going on, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look at "dumping" Japanese cars in the US.
And it'd be loads of fun tracking down the non-US made ones with no US supplied parts that are being "subsidized" by the artifically depressed yen.
One can quibble over which year was the breakout year, but 1955 and 1959 were both breakout years, albeit in different ways. The 1955 put "stodgy" in the rear view mirror while in 1959 "Wide Track" differentiated Pontiac from it's GM siblings. It also differentiated it from competing domestic brands. From the standpoint of the engine, the 1955 was all-new, whereas the engine of the 1959 was pretty much a carryover from 1958.
Key point being "COMPETENT" driver!
I almost T-boned a Mercury Mountaineer the other day on the way into work when the driver put on his right turn signal, pulled over to the side as if to let me pass, and then suddenly did a U-turn right in front of me!
I think cars stalling out are sort of the same situation as flat tires...neither happens very often nowadays, so on the rare event that it does occur, it comes as a shock.
In my case, I've never had a high-speed blow-out. I did have a rear tire blow out on my '68 Dart, about 19 years ago, but I was only doing around 45 mph on a 2-lane road with a wide shoulder. No big deal. I've had tires go flat since then, but as a result of a slow leak. So coming out to a flat tire in the parking lot at work is a different story than having a high-speed blowout.
Something else I'm curious about...how do modern cars with electric steering act when the power gets cut? I've driven more old cars with failed power steering than I'd care to admit, and they were really only a problem in tight maneuvering, such as making a sharp turn from a dead stop, trying to parallel park, etc. But I imagine that nose-heavy FWD cars with wider tires might be more difficult. And, while back in the day the steering ratio of a power steering car was quicker than a non-power steering, I think they've made the ratios on modern cars even tighter.
I have two Cobalts with electric steering, but neither has ever stalled while driving, so I don't know.
something else I've wondered...with an older car that has drum brakes all around, but with a power assist, when you lose power, is it any harder to stop than an all-drum car that was non-power to begin with? I've only had two old cars that are all-drum, but with power...my '57 DeSoto and '67 Catalina. And I've never had either cut out on me at high speed. The Catalina usually only stalls out if I try to put it in gear too soon when it's warming up. And the DeSoto only stalled out at low speeds.
I know with disc/drum setups, power assist is almost mandatory. And I imagine all-drum setups need it even more.
The biggest car I ever had with non-power brakes was a 1967 Newport hardtop coupe with a 383-2bbl. It was drum all around, and easy to stop. Even more telling, it had been owned by a petite little old lady before I had it, so that's proof right there you didn't need a lot of effort to stop those old all-drum cars. Just don't put them through too many panic stops in a row on a hot summer day. Or get them wet. Or, feed them after midnight I guess...
Good question. All three of my Studebakers were drum; two were power. All had a split (dual-chamber) master cylinder. The '64 had no power assist and it had been decades since I'd driven a non-power-brake car..really had the feel of needing to 'stand on it'.
I believe the mechanical advantage between the leverage of movement on the brake pedal vs how far the brake cylinders moved was better on the cars with no power brakes. So stopping them wasn't as difficult as stopping a modern vehicle with a power assist and the mechanical advantage (displacement of the brake master cylinder volume compared to the movement at each wheel cylinder) reduced because of the power assist.
Drum brakes also were designed with a dig in movement where the front band's pressing against the drum moved the pair of bands in a way that swedges the rear band against the drum harder than just the force from the wheel cylinder's pressure would do. I suspect that mechanical assist also was reduced because of the power assist being there to help. The assist was enhanced by proper choice of material on the front band that made it grip the drum harder to help amplify the swedging effect.
I would worry about stopping a car with 4-wheel disc brakes and I tried that with my leSabre when the toyotas were being struck by the mystery disease that toyota never admitted to the real additional cause for beyond floor mats, accelerator movement sensors, and the tin foil hats they pretended anyone else had to be wearing except them. I could stop my heavy leSabre as well as steer it with the engine off AND I could stop it with the engine at full throttle at 50 mph.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
LOL, I tried a few experiments when that was going on, as well. Although, all I did was stomp the gas pedal to simulate sudden acceleration, and then put the car in neutral. I was impressed that my 2000 Intrepid was "smart" enough to cut the revs immediately. Even though it was floored, it made no difference.
I also tried it with my uncle's '97 Silverado, but it revved up when I put it in neutral, so I guess it wasn't as "smart".