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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited May 2013
    I remember reading a report (in Car and Driver, maybe) on the '92 Civic shortly after it was introduced. It said that this was the car MB would build if they built a small car, or words to that effect.

    I don't want to take the time to check the specs now, but I'm thinking that the interior dimensions of the '92 Civic were probably similar to the "baby Benz." One major difference, though, is FWD vs. RWD. The other major difference was that the Civic was reliable whereas the 190, from everything I've read, was troublesome. Yet, I still see 190s being driven, so some people must like them enough to repair and maintain them.

    In terms of styling, the Civic was nicely styled, but I liked the 190 even more, and still do.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'm articulately fond of It Was a Very Good Year.

    BTW, my daughter just traded her Versa for a new Subaru XV Crosstrek, Premium model. We discussed her trading a while back....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    There's a nice looking blue Versa in the motel parking lot tonight - saw lots of Subies today (Ontario/Bruce Peninsula), but no Crosstreks. Your daughter will enjoy being the new kid on the block for a while.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I actually understand that comment about the Grand Marquis. There's something about how Ford often seems to set up it's doors, seats and dash that always seemed to me to impede entry and legroom compared to GM. I can't put my finger on it, but after many cars and rentals GM just usually works better for my 6 foot frame and long legs.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It probably is a matter of what disc is acting up. Seems like some with back problems do much better sitting up like in your truck, while some are better sitting lower with their legs stretched out...and you're still just a kid - just kidding!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,446
    No MB will be as easy to live with as a Civic, but I bet the driving experiences are different, too.

    Those 92+ Civics were probably over-engineered a bit, as they were able to take a lot of abuse and keep going. I see some really rough ones still moving along. The 190 is 30 years old now, it has aged well, looking better than it did 10 years ago when it was just looking old.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you had a 2.6L 190, you could live with that. But the 2.3L was a very trouble-prone automobile and quite valueless today.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,030
    One thing I don't like about the Panther is the way the dashboard juts out. IMO, it's a lot like the old "dogleg" A-pillar of old GM and Ford cars of the 50's that had those wraparound windshields. And, the seats are a bit low, the driveshaft and transmission hump are fairly big, etc.

    I think a lot of its shortcomings are simply a by-product of the fact that, despite the more modern sheetmetal, it's still a 1979 design.

    FWIW, one of my grandmother's friends used to complain about Grandmom's '85 LeSabre, that the passenger seat was too low. And, it was. Plus, the floor was raised up a bit to accommodate the catalytic converter. The driver's seat was good, as it had a ton of adjustments on it to get into a good position, but the passenger seat just had manual fore/aft and oddly, a power recline button
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Was the 190 2.5D a good engine? They're rare in the U.S. now, but there's a maroon one about a mile from my house. It may be a daily driver, because it's often not there.

    I chatted briefly with a guy who pulled up in a manual 190D at Mc Donald's a couple of years ago. Don't remember if it was a 2.2 or a more recent 2.5, but he was the original owner of this low mileage example, and he really liked it. Unlike the one near my home, which has a dent in the left rear quarter panel, the one at Mc Donalds seemed well cared for.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have no idea about that engine.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    FWIW, one of my grandmother's friends used to complain about Grandmom's '85 LeSabre, that the passenger seat was too low. And, it was. Plus, the floor was raised up a bit to accommodate the catalytic converter.

    My dad had (I think) a 1984 white Buick Electra Park Avenue, and sitting in the front passenger seat it felt like you were sitting on a thin cushion on the floor. He couldn't ride in the passenger seat for more than 100 miles at highway speed without havingbtomfet out and stretch his legs for a couple of minutes.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That engine was just ok, the transmission on the 190 was the real trouble spot. It wasn't a high-end Mercedes anyway, a starter Benz, so the MB premium quality wasn't there. People tend to think if it's a Benz, it's top of the line quality. Remember, MB builds EVERYTHING in Europe, from skateboards to tanks. The high priced models are where the good stuff is found.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,446
    And even those aren't built like Rolls Royces or something - they are all assembled in a factory that could build any car. The workers are probably better trained and happier than most, but they are all mass produced mass market products, from an A150 to an S600.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "[Subaru] said it would increase annual production capacity by 100,000 vehicles to 300,000 at its plant in Indiana by 2016.

    However, the latest measure won't help the company meet potential demand over the coming months, the top executive said.

    The car maker has been working on improving its supply of vehicles in recent years. Its U.S. inventories increased to a 40-day supply from 18 days at the end of 2011, but still well below the U.S. car industry average of around 60 days."

    America Is Running Out of Subarus (Wall St. Journal)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    it's a lot like the old "dogleg" A-pillar

    Not always true, but I think a fair number of Ford models I've driven have a less than optimal interrelationship between the A pillar, dash and firewall. It ends up making them feel a bit more cramped than many GM models, particularly if you are tall. But then, Toyota generally has such tight headroom that it's often tough for a six footer to drive one with a sunroof without severely reclining your seat back like a banger (and it certainly ain't a banger type of car!). I guess they figure the oldtimers are shrinking or something.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    I used the grocery store as a very real example, as it is a very short drive to it, there are two other grocery stores here so my point was, and is, if GM had a real BK we would all be better because of it.

    Did anyone starve here while the one store here (of many it was a big retailer) was bought, shut down for a few weeks, changed the name? Don't think so. People just shopped other stores.

    Kinda like I dunno......Fiat buying Chrysler. As I stated we don't HAVE to drive but we have to eat.

    And other car companies would have been happy to supply more cars if GM couldn't. But they were "to big to fail" so we will never know.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited June 2013
    Last year I experienced a premature water pump failure on my 09 Camry at around 32K miles. I thought it was just one of those fluke things. This weekend my kid calls and says their Corolla of around the same vintage has a defective water pump and it's mileage in only in the 20's. So I look this up on the Internet and lo and behold, there are all kinds of postings about early Camry and Corolla water pump failures. Now how long have cars been using water pumps? Seems to me this is just a case of Toyota using junk quality parts? Last year that Corolla needed a new ECM - so much for Corolla's being bullet proof vehicles! My other kid bought a new Highlander last year and it already has rust on some of the door jam area weld spots.

    The past several cars we've bought have been Toyota and Honda products since we all thought we were buying good quality, high reliability vehicles. But it sure seems like the domestics are closing the gap there. We rent a lot of cars and generally the domestics have more comfortable seating and quieter rides, so I think we'll seriously consider going back to them on our next purchase. Then again, maybe the younger generation has it right - cars as a commodity. Maybe it's best these days to narrow down what you like and then buy whichever one is cheapest or has the lowest projected total cost of ownership.

    I'm wondering if Japan is becoming the new "old" Detroit???
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I don't think anyone would suggest the Earth's rotation would stop if GM had been allowed to go belly-up and fail.

    The South survived the Civil War, too, but its hard to find anyone educated in the subject that would suggest the war was the ideal solution to resolving the issues of the day.

    The most destructive solution is rarely the ideal, most beneficial solution to a problem, even though some may benefit in such a circumstance (the "carpetbaggers" that moved into the South after the war, for example).

    Yes, others may have benefited from a GM bankruptcy, but in an unusual twist, Ford was out there encouraging GM's bailout, because they knew what the common suppliers would experience from a landscape where GM was no longer a player.

    I doubt anyone could find any politician wielding enough power to actually influence the GM bailout directly that would have put his/her political career on the line by doing nothing to save GM.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    FAilure of the US auto industry would have been a global humiliation for the United States, and no president or congress wants to be remembered as presiding over such an event.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,892
    edited June 2013
    Motor Trend tests full-sizes: Impala, Azera, 300, Taurus, Creden...er, Cadenza. They rated Cadenza first for value I think; Impala was rated second, Taurus last.

    Cover of Automobile Magazine, ten best cars for 2013--Camaro ZL-1 is on the list.
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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think given the potential economic impact and what you've added, both meant GM wasn't going to die. The Republicans had the luxury of not requiring all of their votes to bail it out, so they could talk a tough line. However, if they had control of Congress, I think they would have still bailed GM out given the situation and circumstances. In fact, it all started under George W. even though Obama gets all of the blame from the opponents. I do think there would have been a few differences though. I don't think traditional BK law would have been tossed aside resulting in bondholders being excessively punished to protect the UAW. The UAW would have gotten a haircut like most other employees of BK companies, rather than just a minor trim. I also think GM would have had to restructure a little more deeply. But it's all over now and it seems like GM is starting to rejuvenate itself, so in the long run this decision will likely turn out to be a good one despite some who expound facts that really aren't correct. It wasn't just Ford pushing for the rescue, so were others like Toyota and Honda because of the common key vendor base. Further, there was not near enough US production capacity if GM fell to cover all of the output. Imports would have risen because you can bet the transplants weren't going to take over plants in the heart of UAW territory and Ford didn't (and still doesn't) have the financial resources to do it.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The UAW would have gotten a haircut like most other employees of BK companies, rather than just a minor trim.

    Ill be the first one to say I'm no expert on the bailout details, but IIRC, the UAW took a significant hit in wages and benefits.

    I don't see myself as having a dog in this hunt, but on the surface, I'd say the UAW got more than a minor trim in the deal... At least, compared to where it was pre-bankruptcy. Maybe more needs to be cut, I really can't say one way or the other.

    Was it "fair and balanced" to all parties concerned? Probably not, especially from each individual faction's perspective. In a bankruptcy, someone always loses more than others.

    Just my opinion...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Gotta read the fine print. New employees and 2nd tier work at lower wages, not the older union members. The union did take over health benefits, but got a gob of stock to fund it with. I think if you review it you'll find they did much better overall than many other people in their situation like at the airlines.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,892
    Forgot to mention that the new Avalon was tested too. They rated the Impala above the Avalon.
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  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Read the article, don't see how they rated the Cadenza first on Value, ther explanation just didn't make sense, especially when you toyed at the chart of their intellichoice ratings, it wound up being several thousand more in cost than any of the other cars. I get that they liked the styling and how it drove best, that's fine, but their vale reasoning just didn't make sense. Oh well not a big deal, except for the Taurus all the cars were pretty good overall so I think any of them would be a good choice in the segment if you were shopping in it. They did complain about the Avalon's harsh and yet floaty ride again though, and they did seem to like everything about the Impala except they said the transmission was hunting for gears to much ( and had the same company about the Tarus as well which I recall is using basically the same transmission since ford and GM teamed up to develop the 6 speeds).
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They were saved...but no one can say they didn't fail. :)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,678
    >I don't see myself as having a dog in this hunt, but on the surface, I'd say the UAW got more than a minor trim in the deal...

    The idea of lower starting wages had been in place for NEW HIRES ONLY for years. My neighbor, and his now exwife, both started working at a UAW auto-related plant at the lower wages 15 years ago. After a couple short years, the work was moved to Mexico. They both were dropped since they chose not to move to another plant in the deep South to retain jobs.

    The UAW gained because they did not lose their contract rights and have to renegotiate. Instead they have substantial ownership in the company, so there will never be any way of getting rid of the UAW from the GM plants.

    Various things happened to give value to others rather than bond holders as would occur in the usual bankruptcy.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,678
    >The UAW would have gotten a haircut like most other employees of BK companies, rather than just a minor trim. I also think GM would have had to restructure a little more deeply.

    I believe because UAW did not take a pay cut but rather only the new employees got the pay cut, they gained because they now own part of the company. The high seniority workers, who are the brunt of the usual, deserved jokes, still get their wages.

    >because you can bet the transplants weren't going to take over plants in the heart of UAW territory

    Right on. Even the Honda plant built in Indiana near Columbus a few years back was allowed by then governor Daniels to carve out which counties from where they would employ a given percentage of workers. They included Indianapolis' county but not the closer county area around Anderson. Anderson had been the site of many UAW plants supplying GM in the past. They did not want any possibility of a pro-union worker getting into Hondai.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't think there is a "usual" bankruptcy, especially not with bigger corporations.

    If the bondholders didn't want to take the deal and thought they had the bankruptcy law on their side, they could appeal the court decision. They didn't - more money after bad.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,678
    >it all started under George W. even though Obama gets all of the blame from the opponents.

    Bush set it up so Obama could procede as he chose since he had "won" the election. BO blamed everything else, even IRS scandals now, on Bush. But can't get by with this one.

    Also on a political theme, the misuse of the banktupcy method by BO giving advantage to the UAW was payback to the UAW for their hard work and big money contributions, above board and hidden, to support his campaign.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    "1,420,937 new cars and trucks will be sold in the U.S. in May for an estimated Seasonally Adjusted Annual Rate (SAAR) this month of 15.1 million light vehicles. The projected sales will be a 10.6 percent increase from April 2013 and a 6.5 percent increase from May 2012."

    Car Sales Expected to Get Back on Track in May

    Incentive spending is up. Audi is selling the fastest, Mitsubishi cars sit the longest.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think most Americans assign way too much perception of power to the POTUS, when in fact this office is a leadership role, and does not have any dictatorial powers. Aside from power assigned to deal with foreign states, the POTUS is a relatively weak position to be in unless you are very good at drumming up support in congress and in the courts. The POTUS can say "I want" all he wants but that doesn't mean it will happen.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2013
    Subaru supplies running low as automaker struggles to keep up with US demand

    Consumers in the US are gobbling up Subaru models, a trend that may result in dealer shortages if the Japanese automaker isn't able to meet the surging demand. A quick look at the numbers reveals a 25.2 percent year-over-year jump in April US sales, and a 17-percent gain for the first quarter of 2013. The sales are so strong that the company's CEO, Yasuyuki Yoshinaga, told the Wall Street Journal that Subaru will exceed its 2016 goals (380,000 US units sold) by the end of the company's current business year. The US market has grown to be one of Subaru's best, with the company now logging about half its global sales on our shores.

    A good problem to have, but not one that I would strive for...

    On a side note, the Forester has taken off very well in New England. I covered a good amount of miles over the weekend and I saw countless new models in my travels. Quite a few BRZ models as well. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,892
    Never worked in an auto plant; not related to or close friends of anyone who did, but...for all the harping by those who never worked in an auto plant, about the pay for what they do, one thing I see over, and over, and over again in "Hemmings Classic Car", in the section called "I Was There", is stories from guys who worked a summer, or recently in an article, even one day, in an auto plant 'back then' and how they thought it was back-breaking, mind-numbing work and how it taught them the value of a college education. As I said, in the latest issue, a guy quit before his first day was up.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    Wonder what that's about. Chrysler sales are up nicely.

    Chrysler Posts 11% Rise in U.S. Sales (wsj.com)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    1st place: Kia Cadenza
    A huge value proposition, solid fuel efficiency, near-luxury ride, and pretty sheetmetal make the Kia our near-unanimous choice for first place.
    2nd place: Chevrolet Impala
    Despite a few flaws, the Impala offers a well-thought-out package at a reasonable cost. This is a solid step forward for the American sedan.
    3rd place: Toyota Avalon
    Extremely efficient and generous in interior room and features, the Avalon is let down by a bone-shaking ride and an uninspiring drive.
    4th place: Chrysler 300S
    A pretty face goes a long way, but it can't argue with reality. Poor fuel economy and interior room relegate the good-looking Chrysler to fourth.
    5th place: Ford Taurus
    The Taurus needs more than a refresh to compete in this segment. If you're on a budget, shop for something in the midsize category.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    ... stories from guys who worked a summer, or recently in an article, even one day, in an auto plant 'back then' and how they thought it was back-breaking, mind-numbing work and how it taught them the value of a college education. As I said, in the latest issue, a guy quit before his first day was up.

    I'd be willing to bet the same could be said for any assembly-line job, whether it be making cars, iPods, or processing chickens.

    Personally, the main issue I have with any organization such as the UAW is the guaranteed defense of the members by the organization, regardless what the offense might be in which the members participate. Sure, its a great deal if you can get it... And, I'm sure I would have enjoyed a much more exciting adolescence if I had a defender always at my back, providing "cover" for everything I might have done.

    All one has to do is take a cursory look at Congress to see what happens when folks somehow feel the rules everyone else must follow don't apply to them.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Various things happened to give value to others rather than bond holders as would occur in the usual bankruptcy.


    I personally participated (at various levels) of taking 4 companies through Chapter 11 from the mid 1990's-early 2000's.

    In each case, there were some groups that others thought fared better than themselves, and to some extent, they may have been correct.

    One thing I have never seen in any bankruptcy is where each participant felt he had been treated as fairly as all the other participants.... For some, I doubt if anything could have been done to make them feel they were justly compensated.

    It's the nature of he beast.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Subaru is partially owned by Toyota, and is sharing manufacturing plants with Toyota. The last 3 Camrys I bought and sold were made in the Subaru plant (as indicated on the manufacturer plate). I was surprised. Makes one wonder if Toyota needed more capacity than they had to build Camrys, or if Subaru had extra capacity and needed something to build there...

    Anyway, I expect with the resources Toyota has, this partnership will resolve any issues with suppliers.

    Not making any judgements here, but the Forester is a hands down favorite for Lesbians in the west and northwest, taking the crown from the no longer available Ford Ranger. No idea why. :confuse:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,892
    edited June 2013
    I don't know...I worked in a factory assembling stepladders, and also worked the furnace/extrusion line there, but I make no comparison to churning out 60 cars an hour someplace.

    Anybody who hasn't worked in an auto plant, ought to look at that issue of 'Hemmings Classic Car' that's on the stands now. The guy talks about building Belvederes in Illinois, '67 model year. He said he quit because more and more tasks kept getting added on his first day..."I felt like I was going to be building the whole car pretty soon!" LOL
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,892
    I thought the Azera was part of the test, too, but I might be remembering them commenting on how the Kia was better than the Azera.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I've been through the local BMW plant several times, taking friends so they could get the nickel tour.

    It's a very modern, clean plant and its always dry inside, with a pleasant temperature for the employees.

    Each time I go through it, though, I always think how bad things would have to get before I could submit to the daily grind of assembly-line work. Of course, if I was 18, just out of high school with no means of furthering my education, it might look far more attractive.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That seems to be the consensus lately - that Kia has taken the lead from Hyundai. I buy and drive a lot of both - and they seem the same under the body to me, but the style and design is superior in the Hyundai to me, inside & out. That's a subjective thing, of course, but the quality of the materials seems better in the Hyundai. Yet, Kia gets the nod. I wonder when Kia is going to replicate the Equus or the Genesis? The fact that it hasn't demonstrates that Kia is clearly not the premium brand of Hyundai.

    Also, I believe the sales of the Equus can be counted on a calendar, and the Genesis isn't much better.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    When I see comments about how the bond holders at GM were the big losers, I can't help but think how that should have surprised anyone, especially the bond holders.

    GM entered the realm of "junk bond" status back as early as in 2005...

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/05/gm-m09.html

    Along with all other financial analysts, S&P pointed to GM’s “burdensome post-retirement benefit obligations” as a major drain on profits. The company’s unfunded retiree medical liability, it noted, increased to $61 billion at the end of last year, up from “the already massive $57 billion” at the end of 2003. And these obligations “could become even more onerous”. If GM were able to find some way to “roll back its health insurance benefits” then it could reduce a significant competitive disadvantage.

    Junk bonds sell because they offer a higher return on investment, albeit at a higher risk. I don't really have a lot of sympathy for investors that buy high risk instruments and then complain when they go south.

    Here, in the upstate of SC, is an example...

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/2004-02-05-homegold_x.htm

    Folks bought into Carolina Investors because they were paying 3 times the going rates on CD's. Many put their life's savings into the company. Of course, at some point, it had to fail.

    Not a very good investment strategy.

    As someone else pointed out, the bond holders had a legal remedy avenue available, but they didn't do much to pursue it.

    No use in throwing good money after bad...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No, Azera was not part of the test.

    Comparison:
    The Big Test: 2013/2014 Full-Size Sedans
    Chevrolet Impala LTZ vs. Chrysler 300S vs. Ford Taurus SEL vs. Kia Cadenza vs. Toyota Avalon Ltd
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Very Soon.

    Kia Quoris Flagship Sedan Coming To U.S in 2014

    The Quoris shares a rear-wheel-drive platform with the Hyundai Equus and its size and proportions also match up with the Hyundai flagship. To differentiate it from its corporate sibling, the Quoris forgoes a V-8 and relies instead on a 3.8-liter V-6 rated at 285 horsepower.

    A direct-injected version of this engine with 330 horsepower on tap is expected to be fitted to models sold in the U.S. An eight-speed automatic will be the standard transmission.


    Kia Quoris

    Hyundai Genesis Sales 2012 = 33,973
    Hyundai Equus Sales 2012 = 3,972
    BMW 7-Series 2012 Sales = 11,092
    BMW S-Class 2012 Sales = 11,794
    Caddy XTS 2012 Sales = 15,049 But 2013 YTD May Sales = 12,450
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,446
    I've been on tours of the MB facility in Sindelfingen, the AMG engine factory, and the US facilities of MB and BMW. None of them appeared to be bad places to work. Hell, if I was offered a job at the AMG place, I would take it - it was a pretty cool facility. Different in Europe though, where most employees have been with the organization since a youth apprenticeship (something this part of the world can't embrace). Probably better jobs than many college grads can get today, especially those with iffy majors.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,446
    Looks like a facelifted 2006 Lexus GS.

    I am shocked 80 Equus sold per week. Not surprised about the XTS, it has some presence, and starts around 45K IIRC.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,678
    Uplander:
    I agree about the articles in Classic Car and people working in the auto industry. Those are interesting tor ead.

    Fintail:
    I toured the GM plant, Moraine, Ohio, and the movements the assembly folk made did not seem strenuous at all in terms of needing quick, difficult movements. Things that had weight we usually supported by overhead hooks as the assemblers wiggled them into place on the car.

    This was an IUE plant instead of a UAW site. The plant originally built S-10s when new; it had been revamped for the SUVs years earlier than my tour. It was warm inside the plant on one of the coldest days of winter. I was the only touree because the others had failed to show up due to the severe cold.

    Not bad work compared to many jobs out in the real world.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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