The Current State of the US Auto Market

hpmctorque

As you know, the '72 98/Electra/Deville didn't share their platforms with the Caprice, so that would explain why those near-luxury (98 and Electra) and luxury (DeVille) didn't typically cross-shop Caprice.

I imagine a good number of Catalina, Bonneville, LeSabre and Delta cross- shopped the Caprice, since the Caprice was comparable to those more prestigious GM models, or at least considered the top-of-the-line Chevy.

uplanderguy

Perception lagging reality, again.

The Malibu's more reliable AND less expensive!

circlew

Here's a pretty balanced video.

Comparo: 2013 Fusion, Malibu, Optima

Here are the Sales YTD 2013/(2012):

Fusion: 136,833 (241,263)
Malibu: 89,812 (210,951)
Optima: 68,859 (152,399)

The 2013 Kia Optima and the 2013 Chevy Malibu are both well-equipped and safe vehicles, but in comparison the Kia has a stronger engine, better gas mileage and offers more cabin and trunk space, which makes it the ideal midsize sedan.

andre1969

but I'm curious about what makes you choose a Charger over a Chrysler 300?

I just like the style of the Charger better. More sporty and less formal.

uplanderguy

I was thinking CR rated the '13 Malibu LT higher in points than Optima, but I could be wrong (yes, I admitted that). I know there were several cars it rated higher than that caused a good number of 'harrumphs' here.

berri

Thought that was probably the reason, but you're a Mopar knowledgeable guy so I wondered if there was something else involved.

hpmctorque

Such as preference for RWD? In that case, the Impala SS has RWD, but will be offered only with a V8 when it's introduced, in a few months. I read that a V6 option may be added later, which would make it more competitive with the Charger.

nvbanker

But was the real motivation preserving Ford's super class shares where the family can control the company with a minority amount of stock and investment dollars???

Likely, but that doesn't matter to me - they did the impossible, turned it around without assistance, and other than their stupid partnership with Microsoft, produce a great product now. The Toyota tech package doesn't do everything the Sync system does, but it does most of it, and it works!

Anyway, whether I buy another Ford or not, I admire them, and I won't buy a GM product, period.

nvbanker

Perception lagging reality, again.

The Malibu's more reliable AND less expensive!

Well, at least less expensive.

andres3

But the bailout decision was really based on a broader macro-economic basis of the entire messed up economy back then.

I don't really think Washington had a choice on GM, or Wall Street at that point in time

I disagree on those points. I think it is much simpler. Bush did the bailouts because he had a huge ego and didn't want the stain of a failed GM on his tenure in office.

Obama did the bailouts simply because analysts told him he'd win re-election with the help of Michigan and Ohio battleground States at re-election time.

I don't think the interest of the people (99%), or the greater good ever came into play here.

Arguing there "was no other choice for Washington" is the same fear-mongering argument at the other choice was so bad, that it is unthinkable and not up for worthy consideration (too big to fail argument).

I like the idea of "containing the damage" of too big to fail companies that can and do (and did) fail. Containing the damage could include bailouts to the collaterally damaged companies, like suppliers. Of course, I think they were stupid for relying their business model upon the credit worthiness of a GM in 2008.

The other choice was simply letting all the failed companies fail, and letting the scavengers pick and choose the winners and losers, rather than the gov't.

berri

You might want to read up on the Great Depression and the events and actions that led up to it and worsened it.

berri

Yeah, RWD differentiates them, but I was curious if anything technical differentiates the Charger from the 300.

circlew

Here are the CR ratings for 2013 mid-size sedans:

Camry = 93
Accord = 90
Sonata = 89
Legacy 3.6R LTD = 88
Fusion = 87
Mazda 6 = 86
Altima 3.5 SL = 84
Optima SX = 84
Malibu 1LT = 83
Fusion SE (T) = 82
Passat SEL = 82
Optima LX = 81
VW CC Sport = 81
Altima 2.5 S = 81
Legacy 2.5i = 81
Passat TDI SE = 80
Fusion 2.0T Titanium = 78
Malibu ECO = 76
Passat SE 2.5 = 76
Sonata Hybrid = 69
Chrysler 200 LTD V-6 = 52
Dodge Avenger SXT (4cyl) = 43 :lemon:

andres3

You might want to read up on the Great Depression and the events and actions that led up to it and worsened it.

But the FDIC didn't exist back then did it? In fact, wasn't it created because of it?

andres3

Chrysler 200 LTD V-6 = 52
Dodge Avenger SXT (4cyl) = 43

CR is spot-on again. Based on my two recent rentals (although I had the 4 cylinder version of the 200), I would say those scores about right on point. I'd give the 4-cyl 200 a score in between; say 47.

It's like CR can read my mind! Psychic.

berri

The issues go far, far beyond the establishment of the FDIC!

andres3

http://www.edmunds.com/dodge/dart/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-dodge-dart-repla- cement-windshield-awol.html

I guess they haven't fixed the structural instability issue my 95' Neon had when the windshield split in half for no apparent reason other than Chrysler design and engineering faults. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

:lemon: :lemon:

andres3

The issues go far, far beyond the establishment of the FDIC!

That's a fair statement, but the FDIC is particularly valuable because it protects the 99%.

There are other examples of differences in today's age that make 1929 unlikely to have repeated in 2008.

andres3

Well, my lemony '95 Neon didn't even catch fire, although it probably almost did when the engine overheated due to faulty head gaskets that lost all my coolant, or when the AC compressor seized up the belts and burned them.

If that car didn't catch fire, no car should. I suppose I could allow 1 "witnessed" car to be excused though.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, head gaskets were a big problem on the Dodge Neon. You'd think that after building cars for 71 years, they'd have figured out how to keep a cylinder head firmly attached to the engine.

I actually shopped that car when it first came out---I thought "Hey, this car is cute, seems to perform well and is affordable---it's the new Alfa Sprint from the 1950s!"

Wrong

andre1969

Heck, they were building them longer than that, if you take Dodge into consideration. Weren't the very first Fords powered by engines built by the Dodge Brothers?

It is really curious though, that the Neon 2.0 was so self-destructive. It was based on the older 2.2/2.5 engines, which were designed by the same guy who did the slant six.

Now, I had an '88 LeBaron turbo coupe that got a warped head and blew a head gasket, but that was around the 118,000 mile mark at least. And by that time, my ex-wife had it a few years, and it had been stolen a couple times, so at least it had *some* excuse!

The 2.0 still used an iron block and aluminum head, so that might have been part of the problem, as the expansion/contraction rates of the different materials would play hell with the head gasket. Still, other manufacturers figured out how to do it.

**Edit: just looked up on Wikipedia. It seems that one problem with the 2.0 is that Chrysler made the head bolts too short. They probably did that because it looked good "on paper" (just like the 100,000 mile service interval on a 1979 GM THM200 transmission looked good "on paper), and probably saved them a little bit of money in production. However, time and time again, the automakers get taught the lesson that what looks good in theory doesn't always pan out in real life.

dieselone

I put 70k or so on a '95 Neon with the 2.0 DOHC/5 speed and never had any engine trouble with it. I beat that car too.

I wonder if their was a reliability difference between the SOHC 2.0l and DOHC?

Mr_Shiftright

Good question. We'd need to research that. Of course, even if the head gasket failure rate were 10%, that's a train wreck for an automaker.

they made an R/T version in 1998. i wonder if that would be any fun?

I hope US automakers continue to produce models that will appeal to young urban buyers...."hot hatches" and such.

andre1969

I guess it's possible that they beefed up the DOHC version a bit. FWIW, both cars were pretty powerful for their time, for that class of car. The base 2.0 had 132 hp, and the R/T had 150. There were still some cars in this class that barely put out 100 hp!

So maybe that power was just a bit too much for the SOHC version, but the DOHC was beefy enough to handle the power?

Interesting though, that the performance version would end up being more reliable. IIRC, Ford had the same issue with the Probe. I think if you got the base model, you got a Ford engine and the automatic tranny was a Ford unit. But if you got the performance versions, it had a Mazda engine and tranny? I knew someone with a '94 or so Probe, and I think it ate tranny #1 around 30K miles, and tranny #2 around 80K. He had engine issues as well.

Even going back to the disco era, I think the turbo version of the Pontiac 301 was supposed to be more durable than the regular model. The turbo would add its own set of problems, but the beefier block corrected a lot of other issues. Same with the old Buick 231.

dieselone

think if you got the base model, you got a Ford engine and the automatic tranny was a Ford unit. But if you got the performance versions, it had a Mazda engine and tranny? I knew someone with a '94 or so Probe, and I think it ate tranny #1 around 30K miles, and tranny #2 around 80K. He had engine issues as well.

I believe all last gen Probes '93- used Mazda powertrains. My wife had a '94 Probe SE. It was a 2.0 DOHC 5speed manual. Definitely a Mazda engine as Ford could never have made a 4cyl that smooth;)

I think the only Ford engine to ever make it into the Probe was the 3.0 v6 in the '89-92 version. The N/A and turbo 4 cylinders were Mazda sourced.

The 2.5 DOHC v6 used in the '93+ GT was a gem. Probably one of the smoothest revving v6's I've ever sampled.

berri

Personally, looking at Ford's recent quality trends I'm thinking they should have kept their alliance with Mazda.

nvbanker

Can anybody enlighten me on the new huge "catfish" grilles being placed on most new cars on the lower front area?? Is this just a styling trend that people seem to like, or is this a reaction to the NHTSA regulations regarding pedestrian injuries recently mandated? Personally, I think most of the applications are hideous. They can't be for ventilation, as most of the grilles are faux, covered up to divert air around the car, with smaller openings within to cool the engine. So, does anybody know what the deal is? :confuse:

imidazol97

>Can anybody enlighten me on the new huge "catfish" grilles

They're right up there with the oversized rims and low profile tires.

berri

I think it's just today's style and look du jour. Monkey see, monkey do. Just like the return of the angular side profile on cars like the Sonata and Fusion. 6 window side profiles are now in, then 4 windows will return down the road.

nvbanker

I guess that's good news - maybe it will go away someday. The Fusion and Taurus aren't bad, Toyotas have just gone wide mouth bass, Lexus too. Focus and Escape are ridiculous.... GM hasn't bought in, thankfully, but I won't be buying one anyway. Oh well, thanks for the input.

fintail

Indeed, sycophant designers. Audi got the ball rolling ~10 years ago, now it has spread, eventually it will pass. The 6 window sedan fad noted is also an Audi thing. IMO the grille trend is worst on Lexus, it's nothing but different for the sake of different.

Mr_Shiftright

i think it also has to do with the pressure automakers are feeling to accelerate their product development cycles....if they see "the next new thing", they jump on it.

fintail

I can see that. It seems style is evolving faster now than it did in the 90s and 00s. Maybe some intentional obsolescence like we had in the late 50s. Some modern designs aren't going to age well, either - where it seems some 90s era cars don't look bad after all the years. Or maybe it's just my old eyes.

tlong

Audi got the ball rolling ~10 years ago....

Seems like MB has had it forever, so perhaps Audi and others are just copying them. :shades:

lemko

They destroyed the look of the Avalon with that hideous grille. The Avalon was about the only Toyota-branded product I could see myself seriously buying.

fintail

Yes, MB has had a formal grille design for oh, I don't know, about the entire history of the company, so yep, it's been forever :shades:

No real big mouth bass or predator look though.

Mr_Shiftright

RE: Audi--I think he meant that Audi spawned new styling motifs, with their "arc roof" on the Audi TT. Most car companies, even MB, copy-catted Audi and still are.

Audi busted us out of the "melted ice cream" styling of the 1990s.

stever

Personally, looking at Ford's recent quality trends I'm thinking they should have kept their alliance with Mazda.

I'm a bit jaded after reading the CX-7 forums but I doubt that the new Mazda stuff is as good as my mom's Protege was. It never hiccuped on her for something like 17 years, when she finally hung up her keys.

Of course that was pre-Ford I think, so I can't really shoot holes in your theory, although I wonder if the opposite is true.

andres3

For sure Ford is a drag on Mazda (bad on Mazda) but I'm sure that Mazda helps lift up Ford a bit (good for Ford).

I think the independence of the two greatly favors Mazda.

andres3

http://www.edmunds.com/dodge/dart/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-dodge-dart-repla- cement-windshield-awol.html

71 years you say.... it seems even with 2013 models they haven't figured out how to even build a decent car yet, that holds up without falling apart like the car Jim Carey drove in the "MASK" before he found his mask.

Yes, my '95 Neon got a cracked windshield for no external reason just like the modern Dart has, only difference is mine cracked after the warranty period. Guess they had more planned obsolescence experts back then. Funny, ironic, that Chrysler cutbacks on planned obsolescence engineering experts might now be costing Chrysler more money in warranty claims.

tlong

RE: Audi--I think he meant that Audi spawned new styling motifs, with their "arc roof" on the Audi TT. Most car companies, even MB, copy-catted Audi and still are.

I also think that VW was even earlier in their mid-late '90's Passat arc roofline. Still IMHO a better looking car than today's Passat.

Mr_Shiftright

Audi TT was first shown in 1995, so I think VW had this arched roof in the pipeline already.

I think Passat first showed that roofline in 1996.

fintail

The B5 Passat (not until 1998 for USA) is structurally related to the Audi A4 of the same era, and no doubt the same talent who created it was behind the 98+ A6 - both of which were real lookers for the era. No coincidence the VW and Audi are similar looking.

MB kicked it up a notch with the CLS, which was on the road by early 2005 - enough to eventually influence BMW and Audi with a rakish 4 door (A7, Gran Coupe).

nvbanker

They destroyed the look of the Avalon with that hideous grille. The Avalon was about the only Toyota-branded product I could see myself seriously buying.

Ah, I KNEW I eventually would agree with you on something, Lemko!

The new Avalon is delicious looking to me from the rear and side, and then I saw the Large Mouth Bass in the front, and croaked! Kind of like coming up behind a gorgeous woman with long hair, then having her turn around to reveal a Joan Rivers face! Ouch! :sick:

obyone

Hey that botox is expensive stuff.

andres3

American cars have caught up to foreign cars, but my experiences with Honda and Audi just don't bear that out. I've yet to have a windshield split in half on one of my Audi's or Honda's.

Maybe I'm the LEMKO of foreign car buyers, and all my foreign cars will be perfect no matter what. We will know for sure if I buy something like a Range Rover and it ends up being flawless like LEMKO's Buicks and Cadillacs.

andre1969

I've yet to have a windshield split in half on one of my Audi's or Honda's

The windshield on my buddy's 2006 Xterra got an unexplained crack in it one hot summer day last year. So, it can happen to furrin' rigs as well. I think the Xterra is built in Tennessee though, so maybe it's the American DNA that does it. :P

berri

Range Rover - that's British. You really like to temp fate

berri

When I was living in the south, it wasn't unusual for any car to break a window from the heat if something wasn't cracked open. I'd guess some of the domestics might be less likely to have it happen because they aren't always sealed as tightly, but I think that is changing.

stever

A reporter would like to speak to a recent buyer of a car from a manufacturer that is widely considered "American"--e.g. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Cadillac-- who has not previously owned an "American" car. If this is you, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, July 1, 2013 no later than noon Pacific.