The Current State of the US Auto Market

uplanderguy

That's 'always'.

stever

In the news, this could get interesting:

"Nissan Motor Co. (7201)’s take-no-prisoners approach to gaining U.S. market share has the auto industry worried that a price war is brewing that will erode the profit progress made since the recession ravaged auto sales.

Nissan’s marketing moves “strike me as a scorched earth policy of going for market share and sales volume at seemingly all costs,” said Michelle Krebs, a Royal Oak, Michigan-based analyst with auto researcher Edmunds.com."

Nissan Yen-Aided Cuts Threaten Detroit’s Price Discipline (Bloomberg)

busiris

There are 2 Cadillac/Chevrolet dealerships near me, both within 15 miles of my home.

One of the gives the customer a great experience, both in buying and servicing their product. OTOH, the other dealership is all things NASCAR, and after my experiences with them, I wouldn't let them service my bicycle. The SA there must be someone's BIL, because he looks like he struggled to make it out of middle school.

My guess is that 2 brothers could each buy an identical car from one of these 2 dealers and one would be very satisfied with his purchase... The other one, not so much.

I've yet to find a brand where someone hasn't had a bad dealership experience somewhere.

scwmcan

Strangely GM ( and domestic) dealers as I recall ( and I believe Ford as well) have better third party customer satisfaction scores than the mainstream foreign brands ( and as i recall have for quite a while).

scwmcan

This one is very similar to the recall for the Matrix and Corolla with the problem with the driver side power window switches.

ohenryx

I wouldn't let them service my bicycle. The SA there must be someone's BIL, because he looks like he struggled to make it out of middle school.

Back around 1994, I purchased a new Dodge Dakota, with the 318 V8. That thing was fast, and a lot of fun, but I had a lot of trouble with it. The dealership where I purchased it was competing, seriously competing, for worst service department in the known universe. I prepared a written list of 5 problems, clearly and explicitly stated, and printed out the numbered list using a large, bold font for improved legibility. The owner's manual explicitly stated that you should have a printed copy of your problems / complaints when you went to the service department.

I made an appointment, showed up at the scheduled time, and handed my list to the so-called "service writer". He squinted, moved the sheet of paper closer and then farther away, and I could see his lips moving (very slowly) as he tried to "sound out" the words. The guy was functionally illiterate. As God is my witness, true story.

Mr_Shiftright

Isn't so much their cars, which are pretty good these days, or even their dealerships....Cadillac's problem is GM's marketing, which is, IMO, pretty lame.

The ATS looks like the CTS---even the badging is one letter apart---which looks like the XTS. Their product line is all mushed together---the buyer can't see what they paid extra for.

Can you name any three of the 5 Buick models without looking them up? Bet most of you can't.

Does GM have anything that competes effectively with the Mercedes ML and the Audi Q7?

NAH.

nvbanker

If you really want to be dazzled, try a Lexus store. It's been a while since I owned a Cadillac, but the Lexus service blows them away.

nvbanker

A). BMW & Merc are the pioneers of Car DNA. EVERYTHING they make look alike, making it necessary to look closely to differentiate between a C or an E, sometimes, even an S. same with BMW. so Cadillac is actually following the leader making every model the same looking except for size.

2). The Caddy SRX would possibly compete with the M, not sure about the Q.

C). GM = Gross Mediocrity, and not just marketing. Caddys are getting tempting again finally, but after Lexus, I don't like my Caddy dealers at all here.

Mr_Shiftright

I see you point NV but for some reason Cadillac makes them TOO much alike.

nvbanker

Can't argue with that. They are almost indistinguishable from one another.

busiris

I see you point NV but for some reason Cadillac makes them TOO much alike.

Well, that's the trick, isn't it?

A manufacturer wants to make their different car lines similar-enough so that the average guy can recognize the similarities (yet also note the differences) between the model lines.

In BMW's case, the signature kidney-shaped grill works well to unite the individual lines, and I doubt many potential BMW buyers confuse a 3-series with a 5 or 7 series.

nvbanker

I do. Not a 3 and a 7, but I can confuse a 3 with a 5 or a 5 and a 7 at quick sighting.

hpmctorque

Yeah, sure, the Slade.

circlew

Well, some times they lead...like leading the United States auto market into a too-big-to-fail bankruptcy.

So the don't ALWAYS follow.

lemko

My Cadillac dealer also treats me extremely well. They should! I bought my last two new cars from them!

anythngbutgm

I believe the discussion was on the service side of things not sales...

Still, I agree that not every make is as welcoming when it comes to purchasing. I've never owned a Toyota myself but the dealer in my town is very well regarded for both sales and service. One that I visited a few years ago to check out a Scion tC was atrocious. Rude, pushy and one thing I hate the most, arrogant. Like he was doing me a favor by selling me a car... :sick:

Ironically, one of my favorite dealers and one that I used to visit was a Lincoln/Mercury dealer that was so good that I bought 3 vehicles from them. Sales was great, service was excellent but the vehicle (98 Explorer EB Sport) was a total lemon even after numerous tries. I've been extremely happy with Hondas and Subies since then so I haven't had the need to go back but the dealer has since become a Chrysler/Jeep dealer since.

I love the JGC so maybe I'll go back some day, who knows...

Mr_Shiftright

Oh the 'Slade...well, if the 'Slade is Cadillac's idea of their own future....good luck with that.

2006 -----62,206

2012 ----22,632

nvbanker

They should! I bought my last two new cars from them!

Yeah, but that was in the 80's, Lemko!!

obyone

It seems to me GM dealers have to treat their customers better to win back and gain customers, and I have found that to be the case.

I own a 2010 GMC Acadia and the warranty is up next month. I can't conceive owning a GM vehicle out of warranty or without an extended warranty. After purchasing this vehicle I noticed a vibration at 50-70. Upon closer inspection I noticed right front tire had 5.5 oz of balancing weights and the left had 6.5 oz. I found a GM TSB stating that tire balancing weights should not exceed 4.5 oz on ANY tire on ANY GM vehicle. If it did it should be balanced with a Hunter 9700.

Armed with the TSB and the vibrations I made an appointment with the GMC dealership. They contacted GM tech assist to verify the service bulletin told me to wait while they balanced the tires. When I got the car back it now had 6 oz on the left and 7.5 on the right and the vibration actually worse.

Long story short after 3 visits, 3 test drives, the vibrations are gone. I find out that the old tire balancer used by the dealership can't handle 20" rims. How were they balancing my tires up to the point of taking to a speed shop across the street? No one knows. Without breaking the bead and moving the tires around on the rim, the speed shop that owns a Hunter 9700 were able to get one tire to 1.5 oz and the other to 0.75 oz. The worst part about it the GM certified tech that did the balancing went on a test drive with the service advisor and myself and neither bothered to mention the 30 year old balancer that their shop uses.

BTW, you don't have to tell me how great an experience it is to own a GM vehicle. I have a '99 C5 and a '10 Acadia. I've also owned a Silverado and GMC Yukon Denali. Bought a truck last year and couldn't bring myself to purchase a Silverado/Sierra though the Denali version of the Sierra had me tempted.

I can understand why dealerships try and avoid warranty issues. If you check the book time allowed for diagnosing and repairing to be anywhere from 25 to 50% of the actual time needed to make the repairs. Warranty work definitely doesn't make money for the dealership.

lemko

Bought a Seville STS in 2002.
Bought a DTS Performance in 2007.

circlew

Are you keeping the Acadia? I'll assume you'll either trade for new or get a copious extended warranty.

I always get my tire/wheel maintenance at a dedicated shop that really knows tires.

Certified, indeed. Just like 'Professional Grade", right?

nvbanker

Ok, ok, lemko - just teasing ya.

nvbanker

Certified, indeed. Just like 'Professional Grade", right?

AMEN brotha, AMEN!!! GM motto-"We're no worse than anyone else who got bailed out".

obyone

Since it's the wife's car and she doesn't seem to mind driving it I suppose I'll be calling around getting prices on GMPP.

I always get my tire/wheel maintenance at a dedicated shop that really knows tires

Had I known it would take a total of 4 visits to get the tires balanced correctly I would have taken it to a Tire Rack recommended shop or use Hunter's website to search as to which company owned a Hunter 9700. I would have saved more than enough time to justify the expense.

I can't believe a dealership selling trucks which 20" rims are common doesn't own a balancer that can balance 20" rims. Funny thing when I purchased a 2012 Nissan truck I had asked the service advisor what kind of tire balancer the dealership owned? He said a Hunter 9700. At least someone's doing their homework.

busiris

I can't believe a dealership selling trucks which 20" rims are common doesn't own a balancer that can balance 20" rims.

I suspect this is far more common than most might think.

imidazol97

http://www.jamesblackcadillac.com/gmpp.htm

I believe the GMPP has to be purchased BEFORE the original warranty expires. These were the cheapest prices from black as I've watched through the years. They used to be at gmoutlet.com--new web address.

uplanderguy

I own a 2010 GMC Acadia and the warranty is up next month. I can't conceive owning a GM vehicle out of warranty or without an extended warranty.

I've had thirteen new GM's since 1981. I've never bought a single extended warranty on any of them, and haven't regretted it. I've got 67K on one I have now, 30K on another, and my last five have had 94K, 112K, 129K, another 94K, and 108K.

obyone

I've never bought a single extended warranty on any of them, and haven't regretted it.

I had a 2000 Silverado which at the end of the factory warranty decides to blow a compressor and had a leaking rack the following month. Month after one of the window motors goes out and would be the driver's one. That warranty paid for itself. Didn't get one on the 2002 Yukon Denali but that's professional grade.

The thing about the Acadia is if you follow the Acadia forums there is one thing that seems to be common which is trans failure. For a couple of thousand seems cheap as not only the trans is covered.

busiris

Moving beyond GM, I've owned countless makes and models of new cars since 1969, both foreign and domestic, none with extended warranties. If I compare the actual out-of-pocket costs I've had to pay for non-warranty expenses against the sum total of what I would have spent buying extended warranties, I've come out far ahead.

I've owned a couple of stinkers that an extended warranty would have been more cost-saving to me, during the term of my ownership, but the problem I had was identifying which cars would incur so much out-of-warranty expense over those that wouldn't... Especially when warranties were as short as 12K miles/1 year terms. A mid-80's S-10 Blazer comes to mind, because it was without exception the worst vehicle I ever owned, reliability-wise. It was a nice looking vehicle with a great interior, but each time I drove it I felt like I was rolling the reliability dice, or spinning the problem wheel of fortune.

I think overall (with a few exceptions, of course) most cars are fairly reliable nowadays, excepting the occasional lemon here and there. Personally, factory warranties are long enough today, on average, that I feel I can identify a potential dog of a car before the factory warranty expires, and I trade the problem child off before it starts digging too deep into my wallet.

obyone

I suspect this is far more common than most might think.

You are absolutely spot on. I had a 2002 Denali that I had bought from at a Buick/GMC/ Cadillac dealer. We had agreed to upgrade the Firestone tires that came on the truck. I get a call that the tires are in so bring in the truck.

Fast forward one week later I call to see what's going on since I didn't get a call back and while the dealer paid for it I thought a week with an Enterprise rental was kind of ridiculous for replacing 4 tires.

Interesting thing was the service advisor told me that the service order said upgrading tires from 265/70R16 to 275/70R16 would throw a code. I said who's the dummy that said that. He said it's written on the service order. Then said he will follow up and call me back. Truth is the tire balancer can't handle the tire size. So why didn't you send it out to a tire shop to have it done? SA says give me a day and it will be done. Wonder what would've happened if I didn't call to inquire?

obyone

Thanks for the link.

uplanderguy

The trans is warrantied for 5 years/100K miles. I'd certainly think that with a fluid change at 50 or 60K you should be just fine.

circlew

Dealine is tonight for Chrysler...

Jeep recall deadline looms in Chrysler vs. government

The NHTSA website says that if you learn of a safety defect "on a vehicle older than 10 years, take the responsibility to have your car repaired at your own expense — and eliminate unnecessary safety risks."

Ditlow says three crash tests sponsored by the center in 2010 and 2011 suggest that if Chrysler would make three fairly modest changes, the risk of fuel leaks and fires in rear crashes would be cut dramatically at a cost of $300 million, by his calculations:

• Install steel skid plates on the 90% of the Jeeps that didn't have them as factory options. They are sold as protection from rocks during off-road driving. The plates would protect the rear-mounted gas tanks better if hit from behind, he says.

• Install longer fuel-filler hoses so they wouldn't pull off the tank as easily and create a leak when the tank is shoved forward in a rear crash.

• Install better check valves in the tanks. Those devices keep fuel and vapor from leaking from the tank. "A good check valve is $2. The hard part is how you get it into the tank," Ditlow acknowledges.

He says those are similar to steps Ford Motor took in the 1978 recall of 1970s Ford Pintos and Mercury Bobcats. Those also had rear-mounted fuel tanks alleged by the government to pose a fire danger.

anythngbutgm

Wow, those are 20's on those? That might have something to do with it, I don't think there has ever been a GMC or Buick or heck even a Pontiac with wheels that big. Maybe the Sierra C3 or Denali?

anythngbutgm

But this was a good read.

Light Duty challenge

And the funny part was unexpected...

2014 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LT Z71 Crew Cab
...Victory Red Silverado 1500 built in Silao, Mexico, was $44,715.

2013 Ford F-150 XLT SuperCrew
...Blue Jeans Metallic F-150 built in Dearborn, Mich., finished at $44,805.

2014 GMC Sierra 1500 SLE Z71 Crew Cab
...Fire Red Sierra 1500 made in Silao, Mexico, finished at $43,720

2013 Nissan Titan Pro-4X Crew Cab
...Graphite Blue test unit made in Canton, Miss., came in at $44,515

2013 Ram 1500 SLT Big Horn Crew Cab
...Maximum Steel Metallic test unit, built in Warren, Mich., had a final price of $44,730.

2013 Toyota Tundra SR5 CrewMax
...Pyrite Mica Tundra test unit, built in San Antonio, Texas, listed for $41,199.

Results were not too surprising since the import? trucks are dated but the big surprise for me was the new GM twins still trailed the Ford (#1) and the RAM (#2) even being brand spankin new models!

uplanderguy

Incidentally, GM trucks are also built in Fort Wayne, IN, and I wouldn't be surprised if at a third plant. I wouldn't buy a Mexican-built one on principle only. But your results may vary.

dieselone

I read that article the other day and the results were interesting but not entirely surprising. IMO the Ram basically won. The main reason it placed behind the f150 was due to limited cargo and towing capacity.

Really the new GM trucks did well. The 5.3 Sierra returned the best fuel economy, but the new 5.3 just doesn't have the guts to match the Hemi or Ecoboost and GM is only going to offer the new 6.2 on the high trim models. You can get the Hemi or Ecoboost on almost all but the lowest trim level. The F150 model that one was just an XLT.

Basically IMO, it comes down to what your needs are. There simply isn't one that is best for all. If you want to tow and haul heavy loads and not spend a ton of money the F150 won. If you want gas mileage the GM trucks score well, particularly when towing. If you want a smooth nice handling truck with lots of power, but don't need a lot of cargo capacity, then the Ram is for you.

What's interesting is the Sierra and Silverado both had 5.3 v8s with 3.42 gears, but there were a measurable differences in performance and fuel economy.

The Sierra returned better mileage than the f150, but the Silverado was below the Ford (non towing).

The Silverado was .4 seconds quicker 0-60 nontowing than the Sierra, but the Sierra was .4 seconds quicker 0-60 with an 8,500lb trailer.

andre1969

Interesting that on the Ram, a 3.55:1 axle ratio is a $50 option. I wonder what the stock axle is these days? On my 2012, I think the 3.55:1 was standard, but mine has a 3.21:1. I can't remember if it was a no-cost option or not; I'll have to look at the window sticker again. I do remember there being some sort of cost associated with the axle, but that might have been for the Sure-Grip, or whatever Mopar calls their Limited-slip axle these days.

I'm impressed that the Ram got 21.7 mpg on their mileage test. The best I ever got was about 20, and that was almost pure highway. Admittedly, it wasn't exactly leisurely, light-footed highway driving. :shades: And the truck only had about 250 miles on it, so perhaps it wasn't broken in yet.

I guess that 8-speed automatic must really help out their fuel economy, versus the 6-speed that mine has.

iluvmysephia1

that looks the most like the one I'm pining for in Alamogordo, NM. Mine...I...I mean his has no bumpers (I love old Bugs w/o bumpers) and it has nice aftermarket wheels and new radials. Mine's white like this one. This one looks a lot like the one here. Mine doesn't have the rack on it like this one does.

1967 VW Bug - the enthusiast's favorite model year of the older Bug years

I'm currently learning what that small ellipse just below the headlights is...and if it lights up when the 67 Bug's headlights are turned on.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's bring your VW saga over to another topic (see link below)--this isn't the right topic for it, but we'd like to hear of your search and progress!

PROJECT CARS

circlew

Chrysler Group agreed to a recall it has fought for two weeks, but only after the government slashed the number of Jeeps involved in the recall by more than a million, saving the automaker tens of millions of dollars.

The automaker will recall 1.56 million 1993-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee and 2002-2007 Jeep Liberty SUVs.

Excluded: About 1.1 million 1999-2004 Grand Cherokees that were part of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's original recall request for 2.7 million vehicles.

Chrysler wins cut from feds, recalls 1.56 million Jeeps

stever

"It was a significant accomplishment for a company whose questionable vehicle quality in the past was part of what put it on a path of steady market share declines, financial losses and eventually a 2009 bankruptcy and federal bailout.

"This is a huge milestone, especially in light of the bankruptcy," said Michelle Krebs, senior analyst with Edmunds.com."

J.D. Power ranks GM tops in quality for first time (CNN Money)

"Porsche knocked Lexus out of 1st place in the J.D. Power and Associates 2013 Initial Quality Study, while Scion tumbled to last place.

GMC ranked 2nd in the 2013 study, a major improvement over its 2012 score. GMC was ranked 12th last year. Jaguar and Porsche tied for 2nd place in the 2012 study. Jaguar fell to number nine in the 2013 study.

Lexus took 3rd place among nameplates in the 2013 study. Infiniti was 4th and Chevrolet was 5th."

Porsche Shines, Scion Tumbles in J.D. Power and Associates 2013 Initial Quality Study

nvbanker

I wouldn't buy a Mexican-built one on principle only.

You are aware the Avalanche and Escalanche were both built in Mexico? (Incidently, the only GM trucks I like).

nvbanker

Good for GM - however, the 90 day survey is a great indicator of quality control at the factory, and inspection. No guide whatsoever though of engineering, design, longevity, reliability or performance - all of which matter a bit more to most people, I think. Annoying as initial problems can be, I'd put that Lexus of mine up against any 2009 GM ever built.

uplanderguy

You are aware the Avalanche and Escalanche were both built in Mexico? (Incidently, the only GM trucks I like).

Yes, aware for years. They're both gone from the lineup.

nvbanker

And that's a shame. Neat design. I had an 03 Escalanche - really liked it a lot, but at 40,000 miles, it began overheating when I towed my boat, and nobody could fix it. (right out of warranty, of course). Then the A/C compressors began blowing out, so I sold it. Too bad, it was a great tow vehicle. Great power, great brakes.

berri

Here's the thing, if GM had done poorly there would be all kinds of blogging about how they suck. Instead, there's a sign they may be turning around - not much posting! I think a lot of people here seem to just want them to fail. Where's the outrage about Ford and their quality issues? Seems that since Fields has taken over NA their product quality is nosediving. Why doesn't Mullaly just bite the bullet and put some knobs in now? They are sticking with a Microsoft system that doesn't seem too good and flashy tech touch controls that don't always respond well. They say they will "eventually" put in easier knobs and buttons down the line. Which company is actually responding to the consumer here? Let's be fair in comparing companies. None are all good or all bad. Give GM some credit for a change and call out Ford when it's appropriate. Maybe GM is actually paying more attention to what their customers want "now".

andres3

That's fine - the automakers will just have to price new cars accordingly to pay for potential claims two decades down the road.

Or they could just pay for qualified competent engineers and build quality and avoid claims all together.

andres3

People 40 and over are simply not going to switch from BMW to Cadillac at this point. I just can't see it.

They will if their BMW catches fire for no apparent reason other than design, engineering, and part defect.

Happened to a woman recently in San Diego, but she was under 40 :P