The Current State of the US Auto Market

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Comments

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    edited August 2013
    The new Impala is definitely an improvement, but like the Malibu it's adequate and certainly not competitive.

    Well, I've not driven one so you are a step ahead of me, but I cannot help but wonder if your thinking is burdened with preconceived notions. Your assessment is different than virtually every car mag, including vaunted CR who said it tested better than M-B and Lexus products costing $20 grand more.

    Just for background color, can you tell us what car(s) you drive daily?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    edited August 2013
    What model Impala was it (LS, LT, LTZ) and was it a four or six?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    so if you were driving at night, there'd be no other car's headlights in your face? Awesome!!!
    So the trunk lid was angled up, blocking the rear window? What were you hauling in the trunk?
    soft suspension? As in new?
    Impala vying for special? Wouldn't that pss off Caddy and Buick?
    Too bad you only got 31 hwy. The 300 horse 3.6 easily managed more in last year's model.
    I've got to figure out what oversteer is. I thought it only happened on a racetrack.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    If it was a rental, chances are it was an LT with a V6. From my observations, the mix has to be 90% LT - but LTZ are not unknown.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited August 2013
    So the trunk lid was angled up, blocking the rear window? What were you hauling in the trunk?

    Rear visibility is one area CR complained about. OTOH, the Impala isn't alone, it seems many new models have poor rear visibility.

    As for oversteer, I certainly doubt that's an issue, most fwd cars understeer.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Well if you're right, that rather contradicts the "product loyalty" survey we just saw a few posts back...How can you have #1 product loyalty but your buyer not being able to wait 10 tens and so bails out and buy a Toyota?...Or do we measure product loyalty these days in "gerbil-attention-span" increments?

    I'd have to say that product loyalty in this market is based on truck sales - the F150 is the top selling vehicle in NA and truck owners are extremely loyal.

    Conquest sales are where inventory matters.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay fair enough! But "conquest sales" are very hard to acquire even in the very best of times.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    General Motors announced Tuesday that it will knock $5,000 off the sticker price of a new Chevy Volt, making it the latest electric car to be steeply discounted as automakers battle for buyers.

    Customers will be able to get the discount on 2014 Volts, reducing the car's starting price from $40,000 to $35,000. Government tax rebates can bring the price down as low as $27,495, GM says.

    "Chevrolet has quickly discovered that when price savings at the pump and ultimately value are your key selling points, a $40,000 cost of entry makes for a difficult hurdle to overcome for most budget conscious consumers," Gutierrez said.


    More incentives! :sick:

    GM offers big price cut on Chevy Volt
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    As your article stated...it's the latest electric car to be steeply discounted...not the first.

    The most-enjoyed new car by owners, so I've heard.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I may test drive a Volt myself.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Never said it was the first, did I?

    I've heard the Tesla S was the most-enjoyed new car.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited August 2013
    Wow, 2014 discounts already!

    Edit: Just saw the deal was for 2013's not the 2014's...

    Imagine what kind of deal you can get on the leftover 2011, 2012's and 2013's that are still rotting on the dealer lots...

    Volt Inventory
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    I heard Tesla was the best-tested car CR ever did...the Impala being the third-highest and lowest-priced to score that high...but that CR's owners' survey said the Volt topped the list of owners who said they'd buy again.

    Where did you see your information on the Tesla?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $70,000 for a Tesla that has a range of only 1/2 my Mini Cooper? Don't think so.

    When a Tesla costs $40,000 and can approximate the range of 12 gallons of gasoline, it'll get my interest. I think most people would agree with me on that.

    PS: You can buy more $$$ battery packs and you can purchase the "supercharging" option firmware, but then you are pushing over $80K. With these two options you can go 265 miles (equivalent to 10 gallons in an efficient gas sedan), and w/ supercharging for 30 minutes, you can get another 150 miles, says Tesla.

    The range advertised is for a 55 mph speed.

    Also the annual fuel costs advertised for the Tesla are based on .12/Kwh which in my neck of the woods is not going to happen. (more like .23 Kwh).

    So, compared to a Mini Cooper, a Tesla S would save me, roughly $600 a year.

    So I'd break even in 133 years.

    In a Chevy Volt it's tricky to estimate MPG because it can run on pure electric for some of your daily trips. But if we give it a modest 50 mpg in the "real world", then the Volt also saves me about $600 a year, for 1/2 the investment of the Tesla and no "range anxiety".

    SOOOOO---for me, this means that the ideal EV is still in the future---perhaps the distant future.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    Never said it was the first, did I?

    What would compel you to mention only the Volt, when other electrics are hugely discounted and were before the Volt?

    This isn't just a GM forum, you know.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Why, from CR!

    There, we said it. The Tesla Model S outscores every other car in our test Ratings. It does so even though it's an electric car. In fact, it does so because it is electric. :)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Are you the moderator now? What's up with the defensive nature of your posts?

    Isn't GM in the US Auto market? :confuse:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666

    The sticker price on the 2014 Volt, which will arrive at dealerships this month, will be $34,995, including an $810 destination fee. That drops the effective price to $27,495, after applying the $7,500 federal tax credit for the plug-in hybrid.

    GM cited price competition as a key reason for the price drop. Several other automakers have reduced prices or sweetened lease deals on EVs and plug-in hybrids this year.

    Nissan Leaf sales have surged this year after the automaker in January cut the EV's base price by $6,400, to $29,650, including shipping. Leaf sales more than tripled through July, to 11,703 units, edging sales of the Volt, which are up 9 percent to 11,643.


    Wow, less owners to be satisfied there! Perhaps sales will triple for GM too?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited August 2013
    In a Chevy Volt it's tricky to estimate MPG because it can run on pure electric for some of your daily trips. But if we give it a modest 50 mpg in the "real world", then the Volt also saves me about $600 a year, for 1/2 the investment of the Tesla and no "range anxiety".

    50mpg is way too modest tho, because like many other GM vehicles (Equinox for example) they are coming no where near the mileage claims. For example, CC says the Volt is good for 37mpg on the gas engine which is about what a typical compact gets. The only caveat to the Volt is you get 37miles on electric first. Yay, that's one way to work for my commute... :lemon:

    Carconnection

    For me, the draw to vehicles like Tesla is the absolute Zero emmisions that the vehicle produces. And the little-to-no maintainence costs associated with an ICE. Last there is the gobs of torque from having Electric power.

    But if I were going for a hybrid, the Prius would still get my dollars since it has 15 years of reputation and a million plus copies ( including many with impressive mileages ) on the road. And you can actually it mileages in the 50's which as I recall will not happen with pretty much any other gasser on the market (Diesel is another story)

    Starting at a price of under 20 grand ... :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Any different from the massive price cut the Leaf experienced not long ago?

    I wonder what the Prius would have cost had the Japanese gvt not aided its development...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think most of today's popular priced vehicles are pretty decent rides with decent quality. I can actually envision a scenario in a few years where GM leaps ahead of Ford with product. Ford is bringing all of their stuff out now. GM has a bunch in a few years. Ford is also gambling that all of this turbo is going to be a winner. We'll see; you're operating a conventional engine with higher rpm and heat specs, so I have some reservations about longevity and maintenance costs before jumping on board the turbo train. Remember, Ford is doing this to a price point, so it's not necessarily like some of the expensive European turbo's on the market today.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,097
    Rear visibility is one area CR complained about. OTOH, the Impala isn't alone, it seems many new models have poor rear visibility.

    Heck, I've been complaining about poor rear visibility, thick roof pillars, and high beltlines since I bought my 2000 Intrepid back in late 1999! Since then, I think most cars have gotten worse in that regard.

    However, as Dave8697 mentioned, the high decklids of todays cars do have the advantage of blocking the headlights of cars behind you. This past weekend I drove my '76 LeMans coupe out to a classic car show near Allentown, PA, and some of the trip was at night. After getting used to the high decklids, and higher seating positions in general on newer cars, it was a bit of an adjustment driving that LeMans at night.

    But, I guess too high can be an issue, as well. My 2012 Ram sits up high enough, that I can see more over the Jersey barriers in the medians, so the lights from oncoming traffic bothers me more than in other vehicles I've owned.

    I drove a 2014 Impala, but it was limited to a test course around the fairgrounds in Carlisle, PA. I liked it from what little I got to experience of it. But if I was going to buy one, I'd look deeper into it, and how it compares with its peers.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No different....GM following, as usual. Others continue to do it better, imho.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited August 2013
    In its announcement, VW noted that it's sold more than 47,000 diesel cars in the U.S. so far this year -- about a fourth of VW sales, and more than three-fourths of all diesel light vehicle sales here.

    The engine is similar to the current diesel — turbocharging, direct injection, the same bore and likely the same 2-liter displacement, spokesman Mark Gillies told Cars.com.
    Volkswagen will offer a new, more efficient four-cylinder diesel engine in its 2015 Golf, Beetle, Passat and Jetta that it says could be EPA-rated as high as 46 mpg highway when the final numbers are in.

    VW said the new diesel four (the EA288 in its nomenclature) will replace its ubiquitous 2-liter turbodiesel four
    .

    But beyond that, VW says it is a new design with new features that include better exhaust-gas treatment, friction reduction and an intercooler integrated with the intake manifold. If that's all Greek to you, VW says the results should be better fuel mileage, sharper accelerator response and lower emissions.

    The new diesels also have slightly more oomph: 150 horsepower versus the outgoing TDI's 140 hp. Torque will be the same strong, diesel-appropriate 236 pounds-feet.

    Volkswagen will offer new TDI diesel engine

    In a recent Michigan to Washington, D.C., highway run in a stickshift Passat TDI -- at the posted speed limits with a full load and AC on -- USA TODAY registered 53.5 mpg with no special effort.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    Why, from CR!

    There, we said it. The Tesla Model S outscores every other car in our test Ratings. It does so even though it's an electric car. In fact, it does so because it is electric.


    You just completely reiterated what I said.

    You said, it was tops in customers' opinion. Where did you see that? I saw that in CR for the Volt.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    Isn't GM in the US Auto market?

    So are all the other electrics that have previously been heavily discounted, but...surprise of surprises...you didn't say anything about them. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    edited August 2013
    Imagine what kind of deal you can get on the leftover 2011, 2012's and 2013's that are still rotting on the dealer lots...

    Nice try. That 6700 number for Volts for sale in the country represents 1 and a half per dealership.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But the Tesla is not strictly "zero emissions"--it is "transferred emissions"--the emissions are emitted at the point of energy source---the power plant---rather than the point of use---the car.

    So really, we should determine how much pollution was generated in producing a Kwh and then assign that to the Tesla's daily Kwh usage.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think most of today's popular priced vehicles are pretty decent rides with decent quality. I can actually envision a scenario in a few years where GM leaps ahead of Ford with product. Ford is bringing all of their stuff out now. GM has a bunch in a few years.

    Yes, but GM ALWAYS has a "bunch" in a few years. Like for the last three decades or so....

    Seriously though, they *have* been improving. I just don't see them being as aggressive as say, Hyundai. The Impala is very impressive, but that's not a huge market segment. The Cruze is decent. Let's hope their Malibu refresh is decent as well.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You didn't read the article...nothing new there, either. ;)

    GM is just a company that had it all and failed. Now they are TRYING to improve. You shouldn't take it personal.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ford (NYSE: F) has a habit of performing well above any bar that’s set ahead of it. The company's growth has been strong across the board, by and large, where each geographic region has demonstrated visible improvements in performance metrics. The second largest US automaker declared its quarterly results a few days back, and needless to say, it beat both revenue and earnings estimates by appreciable figures.

    This Car Maker Is Cruising
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Where did you see that? I saw that in CR for the Volt.

    I heard it from a customer! I didn't have nearly as official a source as CR! :shades:

    Remember, I wrote that I heard it was very satisfying.

    But judging from the ratings, don't you agree most customers will be extremely satisfied? We'll see in the next CR Customer Satisfaction Survey for 2013.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    According to Automobile, the 4-banger is not worth the small gain in FE. Should have put the 2.0T in to start with.

    2014 Chevrolet Impala 2.5 1LT First Drive
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Malibu still beats HyunKia!

    image
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited August 2013
    Like I originally posted when pricing was announced, the ATS was priced wrong by GM. Nothing new there. Go UAW!

    Back in April, we reported on relatively high incentives for the Cadillac ATS, which were discovered in the midst of some fact-checking on a blatant puff piece on the brand by Bloomberg. Months later, none other than Automotive News has caught on, with their own story about the baby Cadillac’s high pricing and the resulting incentives being offered.

    To avoid the inevitable fan boy cries of “bias”, here’s the take directly from Automotive News

    When General Motors launched the Cadillac ATS nearly a year ago, executives sent a bold message by pricing the newcomer in the same territory as BMW’s 3 series, long the compact-luxury segment’s top seller.

    But at the dealership, the ATS hasn’t commanded 3-series prices, research data show. Through the first six months of the year, the average transaction price on the ATS was $39,459, vs. $44,764 for the 3 series, according to Edmunds.com. The ATS had heavier incentives, too: $4,088 per unit, vs. $3,555 for the 3 series.


    One explanation seems to stem from Cadillac’s distribution strategy, which, we learned, involved sending units to key markets in wealthy ZIP codes where Cadillac is looking for growth. But these locales (places like Miami, wealthy areas of California etc) tend to favor import luxury brands rather than Cadillac, and sales are, according to our source, not meeting internal projections. This explains inventory levels, which have been consistently above 100 days of supply since we last checked in (there’s currently a 122 day supply of ATS’ right now).

    Given the multi-decade timeline it takes to rebuild a brand, it will take Cadillac some time to pull themselves up, and good product is the first step of a long journey. However, these are the facts – there are significant rebates and inventory levels are high on a car that had outsized expectations. And it took months for mainstream outlets to notice what we did.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited August 2013
    I was part of a discussion on another board about this topic.

    Yes the 3 series has a higher average transaction price when compared to the ATS as it should - it offers higher priced variants. 3 series prices range from to $32K to over $66K for an 335iX M Sport sedan with all the boxes ticked. The ATS ranges from $32K to about $53K. So of course the average price of the BMW should be higher.

    It's even worse when you consider the M3 convertible tops out at over $83K and is included in this comparison.

    When the V version and coupe are introduced, I think you will see higher prices on the ATS.

    I love poorly written stories about the newcomer being a failure in less than a year when compared to the reigning king of the past 20 years.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    YTD JULY 2013 ATS Sales = 22,088
    YTD JULY 2013 3-Series Sales = 59,052

    YTD JULY 2012 BMW 3-Series Sales = 54,415

    Agree with your point on the transaction prices but as you can see, 3'er sales are not phased by the ATS.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    SCENE: A small cafe in Casablanca. A Cadillac ATS sits alone in the dark, smoking a cigarette, perhaps slightly drunk:

    "Of all the cars in all the showrooms in all the world, they had to make me compete against a BMW 3 Series"

    (bangs fist on table).
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited August 2013
    IMO, ATS sales have many things going against them which is keeping it from being successful.

    1. The looks: I've only seen 1 or 2 of these since they've been out and IMO they are hard to tell apart from the CTS other than the swept front lights and the smaller profile. I imagine non-enthusiasts can't tell them apart.

    2. Price. Dealers are stocking the loaded to the gills models in pursuit of profits. Tacked on stuff like Nitrogen tires, pinstripes, etc on top of it. It's just not much of a value. Which leads me to point #3...

    3. CTS. For the same price as a loaded ATS, one could get into a CTS. Bigger car, larger interior, and doesn't look a heck of a lot different.

    4. Unbeknowest to the non-enthusiasts (which haven't really flocked to Glitz and Gauche Caddies in the past) the ATS is essentially a reverse engineered BMW 3-series. It's even been marketed as such. SO... I'm sorry but when a company comes out and literally admits that they are cloning a competitors car for the sake of getting into the field it screams "LAZY" to me.

    And I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but I'll just go buy the real thing...

    5. Cadillac is a brand that is not taken seriously by the competition. Sorry to tick off folks here like Lemko (no offense intended at you man), but I don't think the BMW's, Audi's, Mercedes and Lexus of the World care less what Cadillac does. I've never once in the past say 30 years seen an ad for any of these guys calling out Cadillac for comparison sake.

    Each other? Plenty of examples over the years. But Cadillac, no way. Might as well call out out Lincoln while they're at it.

    Lastly, there is a new 3-series on the block, the 320i which for all intensive purposes to me is the car that gets many buyers thru the door. It gets an EP rated 22/34 (ATS 2.5 Base is 22/32) and from the reviews I have read is actually quite a good driver. Plus, (and I think this is the biggest reason) it's a BMW which I'm sure many realize is a car that many people buy just for the Roundel on the hood. And that again brings me back to point #5...

    Cadillac doesn't have the cache. It's going to take a long long time to overcome this one. The ATS is a good start IMO, reviews are generally positive and some even say it's a better drivers car (Ahem, being a BMW E36 clone will kinda do that...) than the 3. But it's still just A Cadillac...

    But IMO (and I'm sure this entire post will be berated for some sort of B.S. about "Balance" :sick: Oy vey...) the ATS is currently at or near the bottom brand wise, reputation-wise next to the Germans, and quality is still too new to be judged. It's got a long fight to the top, as does Cadillac which for my entire lifetime has been mostly float-boats and barges with the decade and a half of Gangsta School busses thrown in the mix, and I am very curious to see what the next CTS does to take the next step towards making the brand a worthy alternative to the German Stalwarts.

    Flame away...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    I heard it from a customer!

    "A" customer? You know someone who has a Tesla?

    I'm afraid I have to call BS.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited August 2013
    GM presses suppliers for future recall costs

    Interesting. Wonder how many of them will tell GM to "pound sand"... GM - Supplier relationships have been traditionally sour. I worked for a GM supplier before, they were the worst company we dealt with that's for sure...

    I'll definitely be forwarding this one on to a few of my former contacts. Should be some interesting observations.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    edited August 2013
    I'm suspicious of a couple things in the article, although don't have time to research right now.

    That is the first time I've heard that there was a four-cylinder LTZ available.

    Also, the real price difference between a four and a six is really in the thousands, with the base car--and it's pretty nice at that; I've looked at one--available for $27,535, bottom of the sticker.

    I guess due to my job for 33 years, I try to express myself precisely, and cover all the bases. That's why I get frustrated on this forum. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No, just a gent that stopped in Belmar at the boardwalk. Asked him how he liked it and he said "Best car he's owned to date".

    BS right back at ya, dude! :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    It will be interesting to see if CR even has enough data next year on Teslas to give a rating on owner satisfaction--to see if it bests the Volt, the winner previously.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    As I have mentioned before I got to drive a demo '09 Jetta TDI, 1500 miles on it, trip computer said 50mpg at 70mph on the highway.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Check it out. 1LTZ trim = 4-Cyl and base price $34,690 including destination. Chevrolet.com

    I guess due to my job for 33 years, I try to express myself precisely, and cover all the bases. That's why I get frustrated on this forum.

    You should be frustrated with GM also, correct? ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited August 2013
    You post rings true as GM is in catch-up mode. Let's hope they continue to develop ATS and the Caddy brand into a world-class luxury provider!

    It's a great start, imho. That's why it was priced wrong...it was a start. Seems the Koreans do that the best at the moment! ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited August 2013
    From Chevrolet. com. :P

    Select Trim

    LS

    MSRP from $27,670†

    1LT

    MSRP from $29,920†

    2LT

    MSRP from $30,895†

    1LTZ

    MSRP from $34,690†

    2LTZ

    MSRP from $36,715

    The new 2014 Chevrolet Impala starts at $27,535. Chevrolet recently announced the sedan's base price, which is $850 higher than the previous-generation 2013 model.

    That base price is for a 4-cylinder Impala LS. Shoppers who choose the mid-level LT will pay $29,785. The high-end Impala LTZ tops the sedan's range at $34,555.

    In each case, prices reflect an Impala equipped with a 197-horsepower 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine. Shoppers looking for more power can opt for a 3.6-liter V6 in both LT and LTZ models. Mated to a 6-speed automatic transmission, that engine boasts 300 hp and 262 lb-ft of torque. V6 models start at $30,750 for the Impala LT, or $36,580 for the LTZ.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 17,007
    edited August 2013
    You should be frustrated with GM also, correct?

    Not at all. Great value.

    My hardcopy Impala brochure shows the 4-cyl. available in '1LZ' group, but if Chevy's website says an LTZ four is available, I trust that most. I could be a rich man by spotting errors in non-manufacturer's websites (my job is finding errors in our clients' billings).

    I see there's apparently been a price increase in the Impala already, as the base model could be had, destination included, for $27,535.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Seems like they got a more powerful computer that can do more than straight lines for designing car bodies....I like that someone at Caddy realized "heyyy we don't have to use a ruler, we can use these things what are they? circles" but taking styling cues from a lot of other carmakers isn't the answer either.

    Oh and when are they gonna pay us back? How long before the next billion dollar waste or our money?
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