Is Tesla A Game Changer?

gagrice

stever said:

I wonder what will happen when the wind stops blowing? Dams are so much better all the way around.

Best solution to the Lake Mead problem is draining Lake Powell into Lake Mead. It will reduce the evaporation and seepage problems. Of course it will make the environmentalist happy as Lake Powell has been a sore spot since inception.

Mr_Shiftright

Buffet told an audience in Omaha, Nebraska recently. "For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That's the only reason to build them. They don't make sense without the tax credit."


Warren, that's the whole point of tax incentives--because there are weak market incentives.

Mr_Shiftright

I just started a RELATED TOPIC if anyone is interested.

hpmctorque

Wow, Norway is the game changer!!!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-cheers-as-norway-reportedly-plans-ban-on-petroleum-powered-cars-2016-06-04

stever

Guess they can afford it - they've sold a lot of oil over the years.

fintail

Yep, when you have a small homogeneous population and a gigantic sovereign fund, one can engage in all kinds of silly social engineering.

Kind of hypocritical too, as they owe it all to oil.

Mr_Shiftright

Well regardless of their privileged position, at least they are making a move. Norwegians are pretty shrewd people, and they can see what's coming down the pike in terms of global warming and rising energy costs. If they have the chips to bet on green energy, I think that's a very good bet IF....you are the type of person/country who can think long-term.

I'm not sure that EVs are the only way out of the bag though. That remains to be seen. Especially in Norway.

fintail

Norway already penalizes gasoline cars, where taxes make a loaded Passat cost more than a Tesla. Used cars also have huge penalties until they are 30 years old, I think. Some people bet on things when they have a vested position - who knows how the funds are invested.

It'll be a lot easier to implement in a rich stable country of 5MM residents (WA state alone has 40% more population) than say a diverse large country with 320MM residents.

Mr_Shiftright

Undoubtedly, but I'm pleased they are setting an example, and at least aren't in total denial. Empires fall when they don't realize what is happening around them.

fintail

I don't know if the example would be relevant for all. Some things are apples to oranges. I suspect this ban is also only proposed to be for cars and not trucks, as Norway has people in isolated areas where train transport isn't feasible.

Norway also has a much more progressive tax structure - maybe that's an example that should be reviewed, too.

The empire is probably already decaying.

Mr_Shiftright

There's no one technology that's somehow going to "save us". I rather doubt ANY technology can do that anyway.

EVs solve some problems and create others.

Tesla has just taken existing tech and ramped it up a Stage.

fintail

Don't tell that to the Tesla or Prius crowd. They are saving the world, just don't ask where the juice or batteries come from. Don't talk about tax issues either.

Like you say, the affordable vehicle with real 300 mile range is the turning point.

Mr_Shiftright

The Sweet Spot:

300 miles with all normal accessories working, at normal speeds, on a winter's day
$30,000-ish price tag (same range as the "compact class" we have now)
8 year warrantied battery pack
120v or 220v charging in no more than 4 hours (for 220v)

fintail

That's exactly it. I suspect we are still several years for that, well into the next decade if we are lucky.

thecardoc3

You will see hydrogen fuel cell cars be the norm before that ever comes to pass.

thecardoc3

https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/?&srchid=sem|google||Model_Mirai|Mirai_General_E||

gagrice

Another reason Norway likes EVs is their electricity comes 95% from Hydro. Should be interesting to see how they make out there with everyone driving a Tesla equipped with hands free operation. Capable of 3.5 second 0-60. Still wonder if they have that many people that can afford a $130k car. VW is still the EV leader last I read. Will be interesting in about 8-10 years when all those batteries are losing their ZOOM. Will they recycle or???

There’s no mystery why electric cars are so popular in Norway. To paraphrase an old saying, “It’s the incentives, stupid!” Norway exempts most plug-in hybrid and electric cars from sales tax and registration fees. That makes them price competitive with conventional cars. It also gives EV drivers access to commuter lanes, free parking in most cites, and exempts them from most ferry and bridge tolls. If you look at a map of Norway, you will instantly see it has a lot of ferries and bridges. Finally, Norway is aggressively expanding its charging infrastructure.

The most popular electric car was the e-Golf, which accounted for more than half of all Golfs sold in Norway last year. Tesla was the second best selling electric car with the Nissan LEAF third.

http://gas2.org/2016/01/21/electric-car-sales-surge-in-norway-during-2015/

carboy21

fintail said:

I don't know if the example would be relevant for all. Some things are apples to oranges. I suspect this ban is also only proposed to be for cars and not trucks, as Norway has people in isolated areas where train transport isn't feasible.

Norway also has a much more progressive tax structure - maybe that's an example that should be reviewed, too.

The empire is probably already decaying.

Apples to oranges . Norway is a highly taxed and fully welfare state with a population slightly more then 5 million . Most people do not have cars. Ninety percent of the population live in southern Norway around Oslo / Bergen / Stavenger which are all within 150 miles of each other.. Most northern countryside is mountainous fjords and can only be accessed by air or sea.

gagrice

Google shows roads from Oslo to Nordkapp at the extreme Northern end of Norway. Can you imagine taking off in a Tesla on a 1500 mile trek to the end of Norway? Even going with a gas car would cost you a fortune. No Thanks. Too many nice places I have not been to.

Mr_Shiftright

There aren't going to be any truly "self-driving cars". A driver will always be necessary and he will always be intervening.

Unless of course you operate in some self-enclosed environment, like a tube with total control of all influences.

stever

"We believe that the full potential of self-driving technology will only be delivered when a vehicle can drive itself from place to place at the push of a button, without any human intervention. For example, there are many people who are unable to drive at all who could greatly benefit from fully self-driving cars."

That's Google's current dream.

fintail

There are many people who are unable to drive yet drive every day

The elephant in the room is lawyers.

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

"We believe that the full potential of self-driving technology will only be delivered when a vehicle can drive itself from place to place at the push of a button, without any human intervention. For example, there are many people who are unable to drive at all who could greatly benefit from fully self-driving cars."

That's Google's current dream.

That dream will NEVER happen with the current infrastructure on current or near future public roads. It's just...well...it's a PR statement with no science behind it.

Autonomous cars may gain in increments but as C&D recently pointed out, they operate in an open system, not a closed one...like airplanes have to.

This is the same fundamental error that people make when discussing the ecology of Mother Earth...they treat it like it was a closed system, but it's not. There's stuff entering its atmosphere all the time.

But sure, if Google wants to build a closed-system highway that will not allow intrusions, then yeah, it's possible.

There might be restricted corridors in big cities that cater solely to autonomous cars, with no pedestrians, dogs, pigeons, fire trucks, sink holes, downed trees and power lines.

stever

Wait until your autonomous car intentionally drives under the bus.

Chinese company proposes a bus cars can drive under (geek.com)

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, I know, and we'll all have flying cars and robots and live on the moon.

stever

Robots? Where's @PF_Flyer?

Mr_Shiftright

Is he a robot? I always had my suspicions.

fintail

LOL at that illustration, reminds me of the promises made about the future during the Seattle World's Fair. Not exactly a precise cgi either. If that's the render they presented, it doesn't bode well for the future.

hpmctorque

Which restrooms will robots use?

thecardoc3

That Chinese bus made me think of Detroit's people mover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover

The Mover costs $12 million annually in city and state subsidies to run.[12] The cost-effectiveness of the Mover has drawn criticism.[13] In every year between 1997 and 2006, the cost per passenger mile exceeded $3, and was $4.26 in 2009,[14] compared with Detroit bus routes that operate at $0.82[14] (the New York City Subway operates at $0.30 per passenger mile

stever

I was in Detroit a few years back for the auto show and we went to dinner afterward. There was also a hockey game that night, so we planned to park a bit away from the Ren Center and use the train to get around. Downtown was busy and we wound up at the casino stop at the end of our day and it was packed - there were some transit people there keeping people advised of the wait and that extra cars were in service. We had to wait an extra 5 minutes for a car. Very efficient and quite fun with all the sports fans amped up. No way could we have navigated the downtown core on foot or by driving.

So there was a good $150 into the city coffers Detroit never would have seen otherwise - without the people mover we would have skipped it.

Mr_Shiftright

I could see little Tesla Rent-a-Cubes parked curbside.

texases

Well, Tesla is changing the 'game' of car repairs: it has required owners to sign non-disclosure agreements to get a reduced price on repairing failing front ball joints. NHTSA is investigating, told Tesla to cut it out.

The agreement reads, in part:

"The Goodwill is being provided to you without any admission of liability or wrongdoing or acceptance of any facts by Tesla, and shall not be treated as or considered evidence of Tesla’s liability with respect to any claim or incidents.

You agree to keep confidential our provision of the Goodwill, the terms of this agreement and the incidents or claims leading or related to our provision of the Goodwill. In accepting the Goodwill, you hereby release and discharge Tesla and related persons or entities from any and all claims or damages arising out of or in any way connected with any claims or incidents leading or related to our provision of the Goodwill.

You further agree that you will not commence, participate or voluntarily aid in any action at law or in equity or any legal proceeding against Tesla or related persons or entities based upon facts related to the claims or incidents leading to or related to this Goodwill."

Pretty fishy, if you ask me...

Mr_Shiftright

Legally dubious...you cannot sign away ALL liabilities of other people.

stever

Very rude.

Some gazillionaire just placed a $300 million bet on Tesla stock and wanted to do more but had some 1.5% limit on investing in a single company (hedge fund?).

Radio said that a new, cheaper Model S is coming out - starts around $60k instead of $80k.

gagrice

Well maybe, makes you say HMMMMMM... Sounds like a desperation move to me. Two miles more also makes you wonder who will dump their dough on one.

But the Model S 60 is back -- packed with a whole lot more value and a lower price. This time around, Tesla's Model S 60 starts at $66,000, includes lifetime access to Tesla's Supercharger network (for which buyers used to be charged $2,000 extra), gets 210 miles of range instead of 208, and -- here's the biggest benefit of all -- comes with a 75 kWh battery. The larger battery is available for a $9,000 fee, anytime after delivery, with a simple over-the-air software update.

http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/06/09/tesla-motors-incs-new-model-s-an-aggressive-pricin.aspx

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

Very rude.

Some gazillionaire just placed a $300 million bet on Tesla stock and wanted to do more but had some 1.5% limit on investing in a single company (hedge fund?).

Radio said that a new, cheaper Model S is coming out - starts around $60k instead of $80k.

They might have mentioned the % of investors who are playing Tesla short. It's a LOT.

gagrice

Here is a good report on the ball joints. Has the goodwill letter.

Then, just days later, the OP reported that Tesla had offered to pay 50% of the $3,100 repair bill in exchange for his signature on a “Goodwill Agreement” which he subsequently posted here (a scan of the stock agreement can be found here). That agreement included the following passage:

http://dailykanban.com/2016/06/tesla-suspension-breakage-not-crime-coverup/

stever

Elon must have learned that from his PayPal days. I still avoid using PayPal unless it's absolutely the only option.

thecardoc3

$3100 for upper control arms which include the ball joint? Guess the price of replacement batteries is going to be the least of owners concerns.

gagrice

I had the ball joints replaced on my wife's LS400 at an Indy shop along with front brake rebuild and the total was under $1200. The dealership wanted $1200 each for the ball joints. But they are big fat crooks. Why I would NEVER buy another Lexus. I was thankful to find a Lexus Indy that does great work at reasonable prices. Oh, and that included Oil change and service.

Mr_Shiftright

$1700 with labor in California to do that job on a Mercedes S class

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

$1700 with labor in California to do that job on a Mercedes S class

That makes the inferior Tesla suspension a bigger rip-off. I will be surprised if Tesla survives this scandal. Most S models have not reached 70k miles where the defect seems to be showing up. TSLA is down about 6% since the story made headlines.

"This Could Be The Biggest Auto Scandal Since The GM Ignition Switch" - Why Tesla Is Probed Over A "Suspension Issue"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-09/could-be-biggest-auto-scandal-gm-ignition-switch-tesla-probed-over-suspension-issue

fintail

Yet another car I wouldn't touch out of warranty. And it might even be a pain within warranty.

For the Lexus, I wouldn't take any car that old to a dealer. Too many good indy shops around, they might not save much for routine servicing, but for big jobs, the savings is monumental.

Mr_Shiftright

Dealers generally don't have a clue on how to work on cars that are long out of their product line.

stever

This Is How Little Government Support Tesla Motors Actually Receives

"The electric-car maker receives virtually no direct support from state or federal governments." (fool.com)

fintail

I'd still call the undeserved tax break support, especially for vehicles of that price range. The fact that it hasn't been altered to have an MSRP cap makes me think lobbyists are at work.

stever

Seems like the owners are getting a bigger break than Elon.

fintail

A break is a break. Either it encourages sales and is called a break, or one can say current Tesla buyers would buy their toys no matter the break, which means they aren't actually stealing other sales (and that the break should have an MSRP cap around half the cost of a Model S).

texases

Paying customers $7,500 of MY money is a HUGE tax break. Nonsense article.