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Is Tesla A Game Changer?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2016
    Bottom line, the law requires you to be in control of your car at all times. At best, this accident is probably going to be ruled a double-fault, with each driver 50% culpable, because the Tesla driver wasn't "driving". If he/she was actually driving, then I could see the truck getting all the blame.

    So this might be a case where autopilot will be a severe detriment to the lawsuit and/or insurance claim.

    Pilot training must be at least 100X better than driving training and some of us are aware that there are bad pilots out there.

    So you can imagine the number of incompetent drivers out there who aren't even spaced out on autopilot, much less with it.

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    edited July 2016
    berri said:

    But I read that the truck apparently made an illegal left turn in front of the Tesla, so it will be complicated legally.

    Does it really matter if the turn was illegal? You are not allowed to deliberately cause an accident just because someone does something illegal on the road; which is essentially what Tesla's Auto-Pilot did.

    At a minimum it is a legal and moral responsibility to mitigate any damages caused by an illegal act (whether it was negligent is another matter). At a maximum, deliberately causing a collision could be considered attempted murder (although in the case of a Tesla hitting a semi, this one might be overboard). However, what if it was a Tesla deliberately hitting a motorcyclist?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928

    Bottom line, the law requires you to be in control of your car at all times. At best, this accident is probably going to be ruled a double-fault, with each driver 50% culpable, because the Tesla driver wasn't "driving". If he/she was actually driving, then I could see the truck getting all the blame.

    So this might be a case where autopilot will be a severe detriment to the lawsuit and/or insurance claim.

    Pilot training must be at least 100X better than driving training and some of us are aware that there are bad pilots out there.

    So you can imagine the number of incompetent drivers out there who aren't even spaced out on autopilot, much less with it.

    someone might attempt to show that there was plenty of visibility to see the truck, and come to a safe complete stop with minimal awareness and attention; a good start to defending the truck.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    It will be interesting to see what speed the car was at when it hit the trailer.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm not sure Tesla will end up paying anything. It probably depends on what specifically it defines it's autopilot as in advertising and owners manual (as well as a liberal or conservative court). Personally, I think the whole auto industry is wasting a lot of money on this self driving thing. They've already improved cruise control and added auto braking (which may need some additional work on lens and computer interface in various light conditions) as well as lane correction. I just don't see the world living in the George Jetson age of reading the paper while the car is driving. Heck, you can't even do that as a railroad engineer. Maybe too many executives have been on family vacations to Disney B)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A new Tesla X in rollover, that driver blames on autopilot. Tesla has covered their backside with this on the socalled autopilot.

    Tesla says that before Autopilot can be used, drivers have to acknowledge that the system is an "assist feature" that requires a driver to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. Drivers are told they need to "maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle" while using the system, and they have to be prepared to take over at any time.

    http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/07/05/southfield-art-gallery-owner-survives-tesla-crash/86712884/
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Tesla can say that, but a feature call "autopilot" sure seems to say the car will drive itself.

    And Musk is now trotting out the 'it's an anti-Tesla conspiracy' nonsense regarding the fact that Tesla didn't publicize the accident until after a huge stock sale.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    texases said:

    Tesla can say that, but a feature call "autopilot" sure seems to say the car will drive itself.

    And Musk is now trotting out the 'it's an anti-Tesla conspiracy' nonsense regarding the fact that Tesla didn't publicize the accident until after a huge stock sale.

    I have a good friend that claims his sister takes her Tesla S from home to work a 50 mile commute all hands free. Hard for me to believe. But not worth debating over beers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, don't believe it. For one thing, a Model S cannot read a traffic light. So if there's no car in front of you stopping for the light, you're gonna fly right through it. "They" say traffic light recognition is coming, but if a traffic light is in front of a setting sun, I don't see that happening.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848

    "They" say traffic light recognition is coming, but if a traffic light is in front of a setting sun, I don't see that happening.

    It's called V2V and V2I communication where your vehicle is able to know in advance what the traffic light is doing, and of course going to do and when. The only way to make this work however at this time is a fairly low speed signal by today's standards. There must be very little delay for the car to link up with other cars and/or infrastructure.

    If this makes you go Wow, (or why) just wait until all of the cars have cap-less fuel fillers like Ford does and the car is robotically fuelled. This is projected right down to the dispenser linking to your cell phone or the car's Bluetooth for payment.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Just more to break and run up huge repair bills!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Robotic fillers would work to negate the horrible hardship of manual refilling claimed in Tesla lease propaganda.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sometimes I think the pursuit of fully autonomous cars is a fool's errand. The environment in which the autonomous vehicle operates must be a closed system, so until closed systems are built as by-ways for the vehicle, you're not going to see fully autonomous cars on the road without drivers fully alert and ready to take control at an instant's notice.

    I mean, I like the idea of switching to autopilot in very low speed traffic crawl. At worst, when the autopilot makes an error (which it will, invariably), the result might be no worse than a bumper tap.

    At this point, I don't even want to ride in a Tesla with the owner on autopilot beaming to his passengers: "Look Ma no hands!".

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I don't know if it will ever happen, for one reason - revenue from traffic fines. So many corrupt lazy useless little municipalities, counties, and even some states are so addicted to the proceeds from traffic tickets - most of which would vanish with (we assume law-abiding) autonomous cars.

    That being said, Tesla should be forced to rename its system to something other than "autopilot", as it isn't one.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some people point to autopilot systems on airplanes as a successful model, but think for a moment how strictly controlled airspace is, compared to the carnage and chaos of automobile traffic.

    My main concern is that all these "driver aids" are going to dumb-down more drivers than they are going to assist.

    I know that one risks being branded a "luddite" if one resists any kind of innovation, but my counter argument is that today's "futurists" aren't like the ones who used to sit in think tanks and really THINK things out. Today's "futurists" who hang out at TED talks sometimes seem to be borderline product hucksters more than careful planners of future tech.



  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I like the idea of tech up to where it is now on some cars - radar cruise control, curve assist, etc - fun things that still require input. People don't seem to realize that pilots aren't firing up a fondue set and boogeying down when the plane is on autopilot, so they can't do similar in a Tesla. I think the dumbing down ship has sailed - automatics might have helped, that and lax basic law enforcement (signals, lane discipline, etc).

    Many people are not a fan of TED talks. I had a boss who was addicted to them, and some co-workers were enthralled, but I think the majority finally got bored and they stopped.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But at TED you can actually be fooled into thinking you learned something of significance about a highly complex subject in only 20 minutes---Speed Learning !

    Well, let's see--we'll learn astrophysics from 9 to 10 AM, then move onto The Nature of Autonomous Driving Systems just before lunch.

    Man, this sure beats 8 years of post-doc.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Here's why I think autonomous cars is a futile sinkhole - railroads are about as closed looped as you can get, far more than even aviation, and you still need an engineer because sometimes s... happens.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2016
    There's a ton of Interstate miles out in this part of the country that could be made closed loop with little effort.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well be sure to tell the rabbits, potholes, flash floods, falling rocks, road crew flagmen, stray cows, mud slides, etc.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So what's the Evil Genius Musk up to this week? Any idea what his "surprise announcement" will be?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928

    "They" say traffic light recognition is coming, but if a traffic light is in front of a setting sun, I don't see that happening.

    It's called V2V and V2I communication where your vehicle is able to know in advance what the traffic light is doing, and of course going to do and when. The only way to make this work however at this time is a fairly low speed signal by today's standards. There must be very little delay for the car to link up with other cars and/or infrastructure.

    If this makes you go Wow, (or why) just wait until all of the cars have cap-less fuel fillers like Ford does and the car is robotically fuelled. This is projected right down to the dispenser linking to your cell phone or the car's Bluetooth for payment.
    I love the cap-less fuel filler on my Audi TTS. One of my favorite features not found on the old '14 S4.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Surprise announcement - the oh so necessary tax breaks for 80K+++ EVs extended indefinitely, and his cars are exempt from front plate requirements? ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Tesla made a first-time ever $11.84 in profits?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    Got to love the telemetry that the cars collect. When the Pa turnpike crash happened the car was not in auto pilot mode. http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/technology/tesla-autopilot-crash-pennsylvania/index.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So much for Tesla owners that claim their car will take them from home to work without touching the steering wheel.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It makes it sound even worse. The car decided that the driver's hands were too long off the wheel and so disconnected the autopilot. Apparently the driver didn't get the message.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Over automation can be a friend or an enemy. Some early Airbus incidents were at least partially attributed to over automation. Some years back many airlines had to rethink flight training and operations because a combination of over reliance on automation and long hauls with little landing and takeoff time each month were atrophying flying skills at times. KAL in San Francisco a few years ago is a good example of over reliance on over automation.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848
    edited July 2016

    It makes it sound even worse. The car decided that the driver's hands were too long off the wheel and so disconnected the autopilot. Apparently the driver didn't get the message.

    How do you figure that? From the article.

    A Tesla spokesperson released a moment by moment description of what happened in the 40 seconds before the crash.

    After 15 seconds of what was described by Tesla as "visual warnings and audible tones," the autopilot began to disengage because the driver's hands were still not on the wheel.

    About 25 seconds before the crash, "Autosteer began a graceful abort procedure in which the music is muted, the vehicle begins to slow and the driver is instructed both visually and audibly to place their hands on the wheel," according to the company.

    Tesla said the driver responded 11 seconds before the crash by retaking the wheel, turning it toward the left and pressing on the accelerator.


  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    11 seconds is a long time cruising down the highway. Now, check the call status on the driver's cell phone.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Dead men tell no tales, unfortunately. It seems hard to believe that someone would ignore 29 seconds of visual and audio alerts. I have no idea what these alerts sound like, however.

    And really, in 11 seconds you can't avoid a collision?

    Something isn't adding up with any of this.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Perhaps overconfidence and maybe "experience" (to put it nicely) were factors too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2016
    Possibly. He could have ignored the warnings because he didn't see any obstacles in front of him--sort of "yeah, yeah, I'll be with you in a minute, Autopilot".

    Just goes to show you how there's no such thing as a "foolproof" system. You provide the system, Nature provides the fool that'll prove you wrong.

    PS: A little off the subject. Am I the only one who gets insulted when someone says: "You'll love this. It's foolproof!"?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,848

    And really, in 11 seconds you can't avoid a collision?

    Something isn't adding up with any of this.

    Do you suppose it was a case of too embarrassed to admit what really happened so the first thing that he could think of to blame was the auto-pilot? If so, then BUSTED!!!

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well he's dead so he ain't blaming anybody, but given what's been placed before us, he either ignored the warnings, or didn't get the warnings.

    As anyone who has watched car wrecks in Russia on YouTube, not all accidents are preventable, no matter what the driver, or the machine, does.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    This is the rollover accident, right? Not the fatal one with the semi.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I think it was just a moderate side swipe, not a rollover.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Moderate side swipe is an interesting term if the guy was killed. If that is the case, seems to me the guy was not wearing seatbelts, the victim of a freak in physics or the car is a tin can?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This was the side swipe the guard rail, crossed over the highway and rolled over in PA. The driver did not get hurt that bad. He blamed the Autopilot and has been proven a liar.

    The Tesla driver in FL is the one that got killed. And that was on autopilot as far as I can tell. Did not react to a semi crossing in front of him.

    Best keep your hands on the wheel and play Pokemon at home.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the "Autopilot" name is the issue, and Tesla needs to be forced to change it. It's not an autopilot, how can they get away with calling it that?

    If this was a 77 year old crashing his Avalon, it wouldn't be a surprise. I suspect this guy's VCR is blinking 12:00/
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Partially agree, but "autopilot" doesn't mean sit back and watch a movie. You still have to monitor the vehicle. I'll bet if we see more of these, the judge and jury's involved will be giving very different decisions for them. Just like the old Toyota "unintended" acceleration.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Where's the logic here? If 34,000 people a year are killed with their hands ON the wheel, I'm not convinced that Tesla's current systems are going to do us any good on improving that.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I actually suspect it would get worse. Lack of attention to the driving and overconfidence combined with malfunctions due to light condition impacting lens and computer interface, or even just bad imaging from dirt, rain, snow, etc. on the lens. What I find most ridiculous on the tesla is that apparently it has no way to determine or react to another vehicle that is not moving in the same direction. What was it that Barnum and Bailey used to say...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think it does even less than the autopilot in a plane. It's just a dumb name, which will feed into the bravado of monied tech dorks. I suspect there are more cases we don't know about, and there will be more.

    The Barnum line is a good one, although IIRC the "sucker" quote was actually about him. I remember when the PT Cruiser was new and selling for huge amounts over MSRP, a friend of mine said the "PT" was for P.T. Barnum.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Over sticker for a PT Cruiser...and I've got some property to sell you in the Everglades B)

    You may be too young to know about W.C. Fields, but he had many good lines as did Groucho Marx.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can't give away a PT Cruiser now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    3 down and counting. I see a lot of attorneys getting rich on autopilot.

    This month, two Teslas equipped with Autopilot veered into barriers following disclosure of the first fatal wreck, a Model S slamming into a 18-wheeler crossing a Florida highway after the semi-autonomous car failed to distinguish the truck’s white trailer from sky.


    “The moment I saw Tesla calling it Autopilot, I thought it was a bad move,’’ said Lynn Shumway, a lawyer who specializes product liability cases against carmakers. “Just by the name, aren’t you telling people not to pay attention?’’

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-15/tesla-won-t-be-able-to-put-crash-defense-on-autopilot
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928

    You can't give away a PT Cruiser now.

    People finally realized PT Cruisers were just Neons underneath, so replace the transmission, head gaskets, and air conditioners frequently; a Bently would be cheaper per mile.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Speaking of Neons, I saw a first generation one today, the second sighting of one in a week. They're not rare yet, but it's been a while since I'd seen one before last week. If Neons were so troublesome you'd think they'd all be scrapped by now. It's hard to justify spending the money to repair one.

    There are still plenty of second generation ones around. Are these more reliable than the first generation, or are they still around because they're newer and less miled up?
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