Is Tesla A Game Changer?

stever

Yeah, but what if I just want to go to Walmart and want to work on my shopping list in the car? That's not an oddball destination. Hm, I wonder if it's illegal to dictate my shopping list on my handheld phone while driving.

I'm half there already with the directions part and I use my Garmin just about every time I get in the car.

There's two theories about the infrastructure. One is that since no one will need to own a car, they'll get used a good part of the day instead of sitting in garages or parking lots. That will greatly reduce traffic and wear and tear on the roads. I arrive at Walmart and the next shopper at the door grabs that car. I just call for a different car when I'm done.

The other theory is that everyone will have their own autonomous car and the roads will be jammed with empty cars making pizza and milk runs for their owners. That will still save wear and tear on the roads since it'll be gridlock 24/7.

fintail

That's exactly why the tech dorks here want autonomous cars - they want to profit from it. There's no legitimate altruism in it, although some claim there will be reduced deaths etc. They are really only seeing dollar signs. Plenty of idiot bleeding hearts will fall for it, too. Of course, those bleeding hearts are crap drivers anyway, so it might be for the better - for them.

Mr_Shiftright

Even inter-urban trains with dedicated track and fenced barriers aren't fully autonomous.

This is simply not going to happen for decades, not until "they" build actual smart roads that are dedicated routes---like those toy trains you see at some airports.

This is right up there with flying cars, robot kitchens and 500 mph atomic railroads.

I expect autonomous Teslas to approximate $130,000 Roombas in efficiency.

gagrice

The Autodrive Uber and Lyft craze will end when they kill a passenger or run over some little old lady crossing the street.

Mr_Shiftright

San Francisco has had Autodrive for 100 years--it's called the cable car.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

San Francisco has had Autodrive for 100 years--it's called the cable car.

Many legitimate reasons to not own a car in San Francisco. As long as getting to work is not imperative. They strike and shut down the transportation on a regular basis

gagrice

Musk seems to think he can win in court what he cannot win with public opinion. What part of we don't want you in Michigan doesn't Musk understand???

Electric automaker Tesla filed a lawsuit today against state officials, escalating its multi-year battle to sell vehicles directly to consumers in Michigan.

The California automaker named Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnson, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette and Gov. Rick Snyder in its lawsuit filed in in federal court.

The lawsuit was filed less than a week after Johnson rejected Tesla's application for dealership and service facilities in Grand Rapids. The license was denied because a state law in 2014 requires a dealer to have a bona fide contract with an auto manufacturer to sell its vehicles.

"Particularly egregious protectionist legislation was passed by the Michigan Legislature in 2014," Tesla says in its complaint. "The Michigan Legislature quietly enacted an outright ban on Tesla’s direct-to-consumer sales model, effectively giving franchised dealers a state-sponsored monopoly on car sales within Michigan."

Tesla operates nearly 100 stores in 23 states and the District of Columbia.

To buy a new Tesla now, Michiganders must go to Chicago, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati or Indianapolis, where the automaker operates its galleries.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/09/22/tesla-sues-state-officials-sell-cars-michigan/90832684/

stever

You think public opinion is that consumer choice should be limited? And that lobbyists should run the state capitols?

I think he's already won that argument but the pols haven't figured that out yet.

fintail

Lobbyists have controlled the country for decades. Public opinion lolol, it can be bent and bought.

gagrice

stever said:

You think public opinion is that consumer choice should be limited? And that lobbyists should run the state capitols?

I think he's already won that argument but the pols haven't figured that out yet.

I'm not sure if he has a great deal of public support. For me I never just go and buy from a dealer without shopping all the local dealers and surrounding states. Not many things in life do we buy direct from the source. Most always a middle man that is our advocate with the producer. Most manufacturers are not well equipped to deal with the consumers. Not the same as buying a dozen eggs from your neighbor.

I think it is going to become even more critical when he is selling his EV for the masses. In San Diego there is only one place to get your Tesla fixed. For about 3 million people. That place already has some negative feedback on Google. I look for more states to force him to sell through a dealership. Only 23 states you can buy a Tesla direct. The others you buy through the website and they are registered in CA. hmmmm

hpmctorque

stever said:

You think public opinion is that consumer choice should be limited? And that lobbyists should run the state capitols?

I think he's already won that argument but the pols haven't figured that out yet.

Public opinion and entrenched auto industry interests are at odds on this one. How would consumers be hurt by Tesla's direct distribution model? Shoppers would factor the benefits and drawbacks into their buying decision.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

Lobbyists have controlled the country for decades. Public opinion lolol, it can be bent and bought.

True, but it's worse in most other countries.

hpmctorque

"I look for more states to force him to sell through a dealership. Only 23 states you can buy a Tesla direct." The others you buy through the website and they are registered in CA. hmmmm

Why the heck should the states "force" the company to distribute its products in a way that protects dealers' interests rather than to leave that choice to the company and consumers? Why is competition in distribution models a bad thing?

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

You think public opinion is that consumer choice should be limited? And that lobbyists should run the state capitols?

I think he's already won that argument but the pols haven't figured that out yet.

Given what "public opinion" often comes up with, I'm not too keen on deferring to it in every instance.

Buying cars direct is probably a bad idea but sure let the public submit themselves to the experiment if they wish.

fintail

But most first world/developed/OECD countries? Apples to apples and all that

Somehow, I have even less faith in a direct sales model than I do in the current system,

hpmctorque said:

fintail said:

Lobbyists have controlled the country for decades. Public opinion lolol, it can be bent and bought.

True, but it's worse in most other countries.

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

You think public opinion is that consumer choice should be limited? And that lobbyists should run the state capitols?

I think he's already won that argument but the pols haven't figured that out yet.

Given what "public opinion" often comes up with, I'm not too keen on deferring to it in every instance.

hpmctorque

It looks like deep pocketed competition will soon become more intense for Tesla...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160925/OEM03/309269996/paris-motor-show-its-electric

hpmctorque

Is Kreisel Electric a game changer?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160925/COPY01/309259997/austria-brothers-aim-to-help-bmw-vw-others-tackle-tesla

Mr_Shiftright

Well certainly a credible company but I think the article illuminates the fact that there are no imminent breakthroughs in battery technology. What people are doing is refining what's already in place and squeezing every ounce of improvement out of existing technology.

fintail

Suddenly it's 1916.

Mr_Shiftright

How true. Around 1900, 40 percent of American automobiles were powered by steam, 38 percent by electricity, and 22 percent by gasoline.

I believe that the Nissan Leaf is still the world's best selling highway-capable EV.

fintail

And you can pick up early Leafs now for 6K all day long, might not bode well for how they (or EVs) age.

gagrice

fintail said:

And you can pick up early Leafs now for 6K all day long, might not be a good indicator of how they (or EVs) age.

The Leaf loses battery capacity rapidly in warmer clients. With real world mileage around 70 miles, How much can you afford to lose and be able to commute to work and back?

http://www.torquenews.com/1/nissan-leaf-bar-loss-emotional-chemistry-when-losing-battery-bars

fintail

Then it essentially becomes something for short distance commuters, and for suburbanites to use to go to the supermarket. Kind of pricey for those limited roles.

gagrice said:

The Leaf loses battery capacity rapidly in warmer clients. With real world mileage around 70 miles, How much can you afford to lose and be able to commute to work and back?

http://www.torquenews.com/1/nissan-leaf-bar-loss-emotional-chemistry-when-losing-battery-bars

Mr_Shiftright

I still have EVs in the "toy" category but I'm willing to have my mind changed. I don't mean "toy" as a disparagement--but you know, like a Harley or jetski are "toys". They don't do the heavy lifting of everyday life.

stever

Just saw a Leaf about an hour ago, pretty rare birds around here. Going 35 in a 45, on a cool day with no AC needed. Must have been on the home stretch.

gagrice

Will MB challenge Tesla with their ESUV?

Tesla has the lock on the all-electric SUV market with its Model X. But it won't for long. That's because Mercedes is gunning for the upstart electric-car-maker with its very own luxury EV crossover, dubbed the EQ, that it debuted in Paris Thursday morning.

As for range, Mercedes says the EQ can do 310 miles (500 km) on a single charge. It is also said to do 0 to 62 mph in under 5.0 seconds. Of course, it can say whatever it wants without impunity since the car is a prototype and won't actually be put on sale.

http://mashable.com/2016/09/29/mercedes-benz-eq/#Q8qhCc4bxPqD

Mr_Shiftright

Well maybe MB is playing it smart and not rushing to market with a product as buggy as Tesla's?

stever

"Lithium-ion batteries were supposed to be different from the dirty, toxic technologies of the past. Lighter and packing more energy than conventional lead-acid batteries, these cobalt-rich batteries are seen as “green.” They are essential to plans for one day moving beyond smog-belching gasoline engines. Already these batteries have defined the world’s tech devices.

But this comes at an exceptional cost."

The Cobalt Pipeline (washingtonpost.com)

gagrice

So it is likely the cobalt in the Tesla batteries came from mines using child labor. Interesting expose'.

berri

I don't think there is any truly carbon print free source of energy when you consider the big picture including manufacture of the equipment. Electric cars may be an interim solution to dwindling natural resources, but I think the long term solution is probably still trying to refine hydrogen fuel cells. But that will also require a rework of the energy infrastructure.

The devil with batteries is probably the question of how they are disposed of at their point of no longer usefulness. I'm not sure that picture is really being looked at by electric car cheerleaders like Musk.

hpmctorque

Self-satisfied greenies and government legislators should view that picture before they act. Unfortunately, however, there are few employment options for most people on the African continent.

stever

Not much better in China (The Guardian).

Of course, we never had those kinds of problems in the US. (USA Today)

gagrice

Thanks to the Feds giving foreign companies access to our resources and letting them rape the land and leave. That mine was Canadian owned if my Colorado friends are correct.

fintail

LOL I love the greenie weenie train of logic - their dear propulsion methods are known to be linked to hardcore environmental degradation in nations which are virtually unpunished social, IP, and environmental criminals. To counter this, they who have brought so much progress (and really stand by the ideals which they rallied around 45-50 years ago) point to accidents that occur in the more developed world, rather than face the externalities produced by their darlings. Pollution is just fine as long as you can't see it, NIMBY. One of the ultimate hypocrisies. These dopes virtually rule the Seattle area, and appear to have brainwashed many of the next generation. It'll be interesting to see the legacy brought for the future.

stever

gagrice said:

Thanks to the Feds giving foreign companies access to our resources and letting them rape the land and leave. That mine was Canadian owned if my Colorado friends are correct.

Probably went through a dozen owners as companies tried to shed liabilities. (New York Times)

berri

Seems to me that the far left ignores facts while the far right makes them up. Been that way since years back in high school. I'm not too worried about the younger generation. Perspective changes when you have a family and a mortgage.

stever

Better call home on this one and be sure to use your smart phone (especially our friend who works in telecom).

Tesla Motors says Q3 deliveries of about 24,500 vehicles, up about 70 pct from last quarter (Reuters)

The flip side (short sellers) figure that Elon has been advising employees to stretch the numbers. (valuewalk.com)

fintail

Seeing that creative accounting is one of the foundations of the business model, nothing would surprise me.

I can believe it though, I suspect every third Model X is delivered within 10 miles of me.

stever

Looks like part 2 of a Washington Post series on battery making:

"Making batteries big enough to power cars will cause a daunting leap in demand. A laptop requires just a handful of the familiar, thin, cylindrical lithium-ion batteries known as “18650s.” A smartphone requires even less. But a typical electric car requires thousands of times the battery power.

Today, the best known “gigafactory” for electric-car batteries is the one being built by Tesla in the Nevada desert — a plant the company says will produce 500,000 electric-car batteries annually. But it’s just one of many. About a dozen other battery gigafactories are being planned around the world.

This is “not just a Tesla story,” said Simon Moores, managing director of Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, a firm that tracks demand and assesses prices for raw materials in the industry. “The demand is rising everywhere, especially in China."

In Your Phone, In Their Air

fintail

The pollution is 8000 miles away, it's OK.

I wonder how many of those bribed/embezzling provincial officials will buy their way in elsewhere and launder money in the local real estate market. More externalities nobody wants to touch.

berri

Wait Fin, all that Asian pollution ends up in water or wind currents that carry it right up to your whereabouts buddy!

fintail

That'll just make the bleeding hearts feel guilty about western consumption, and say we deserve it. Still not a problem

gagrice

Well it has started. More coal needed to power the energy guzzling Teslas.

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2016-10-06/apnewsbreak-us-mine-expansion-to-have-minor-climate-impact

Mr_Shiftright

It might turn out some day that clean air will be the leading real estate "amenity". You will display your wealth not by the amount of gold you have in your home, or size of your house, but the purity of the air around it (and around your Tesla, of course).

fintail

Maybe that's why all the money laundering real estate "investors" like the relatively clean environment of the Seattle metro area.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

It might turn out some day that clean air will be the leading real estate "amenity". You will display your wealth not by the amount of gold you have in your home, or size of your house, but the purity of the air around it (and around your Tesla, of course).

I have no doubt you are correct. It may not have as much to do with pollutants as it does with layout. No way to keep pollution from backing up against the San Bernardino mountains within the Los Angeles basin. Coming down the Grapevine Thursday morning the smog made us think we were entering a 3rd World country. It is even worse driving in over Cajon pass toward San Bernardino. The CO2 from 18+ million people exhaling has to be significant. This picture is of the cleanest place on earth. One of those houses is owned by a scientist that tested air quality over the entire globe. When he tested the air in this area of the Big Island, he bought a lot and built his home there. Nothing but 2500 miles of Pacific ocean with constant breezes refreshing the air. We have rented several homes in this picture for vacation. My wife would move there in a NY second. We are planning to go look again with moving in mind.

gagrice

How to show a quarterly profit of $21 million. Get $139 million from the other auto makers.

Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA) shares rallied Wednesday after posting its first quarterly net profit after 12 quarterly losses, trouncing estimates with the help of roughly $139 million in revenue from California clean-car credits and record production and sales.

http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-motors-inc-tsla-3q-2016-earnings-tesla-shares-surge-after-posting-second-2437593

fintail

Just drink the Kool Aid, it's easier

gagrice

The media has the nerve to say that Tesla and Solar City are successful businesses. Give me a $100 million and I can look very successful without doing anything. Musk may be the Con Man of the Century.