Is Tesla A Game Changer?

fintail

I wonder if they have the political clout to extend the undeserved tax incentives.

Mr_Shiftright

I think so....they've got the ol' "made in the USA" thing going, as well as "bringing jobs back home"---the usual hot buttons that obscure the rather dubious balance sheets.

texases

Tesla was on a workable path - get attention with the sports car, develop a reputation with a FAST luxury car. Then it went off the rails with the troubled, too-expensive X. Now it's pursuing disaster with a crazy-rapid ramp up...

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think you can scale up car production like you can cell phones.

stever

Is Sergio in the building?

Paging Sergio - your "car" lifeline is here. Tell your dealers they have to accept PayPal now.

Mr_Shiftright

I like the idea of door-to-door car salespeople. Musk should try it.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

I like the idea of door-to-door car salespeople. Musk should try it.

Yeah, but then the "3 day cancellation period" would be applicable.

Mr_Shiftright

Well no, you wouldn't buy the car right there...the salesperson would sit down with you, show you all the brochures, maybe take you for a test ride, let you play with everything, then pop the trunk lid and the "closer" would come out to sign you up.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well no, you wouldn't buy the car right there...the salesperson would sit down with you, show you all the brochures, maybe take you for a test ride, let you play with everything, then pop the trunk lid and the "closer" would come out to sign you up.

I don't know about CA, but here in CO if you enter into a contract in your home, you have the right of recission.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's not so different than some of those dealer programs where you can try the car out for a few days.

stever

I think the FCA hookup would be ideal. Trained factory workers, production lines available, dealer network in place, unreliable vehicles.

Perfect match on all points.

gagrice

Maybe Elon really will buy VW's factory in Chattanooga.

I don't think VW is that close to financially desperate. I don't think Musk bought most of the NUMMI factory. From what I read he bought less than a third of the facility. Will Toyota or the current owners be as generous if Musk wants to expand.

I think he is blowing smoke to generate cash from investors. He has never delivered on time. He is half genius, half flim flam man.

Mr_Shiftright

Many geniuses are flim-flam men (or women). The trick is to not believe your own flim-flam.

fintail

This kinda works:

laurasdada

Monorail!

At least Musk admitted that, 20/20 hindsight, they over engineered (or how did he put it? Over bedazzled?) the Model X. Which may bode well for the 3.

texases

Typical egotist excuses. They UNDER engineered the X, given all the problems. Too many unneeded features, poorly executed.

Mr_Shiftright

C & D's Longterm Testing for the TESLA is interesting.

stever

Small quibble about the beta comments. Software is never "finalized".

"Not only is Tesla prohibited from selling cars here, but Michigan law prevents Tesla from working on customers’ cars within the state at company-owned service centers or using its roving Ranger team."

Talk about idiotic legislation. Sheesh.

Mr_Shiftright

It may not be finalized, but I'd rather Tesla did R&D on their own dime.

stever

Range anxiety? This will get you home that last mile if you run out of juice. (abc7.com)

Mr_Shiftright

Tesla owners could hang them from small lifeboat-davits off the rear bumper. Might save you after all the Teslas blow out your local power plant.

All kidding aside, I finally got some "real-world" information about operating a Tesla S in cold climates. One car magazine reports range reduction as low as 134 miles on a charge during sub 40 degree weather, with operation of the heater, and having the car parked outside during the work day.

fintail

I wonder if the kiddie version still gets a tax incentive

texases

Oh, yeah. That's a big reason he came up with the "500,000 cars in 2018" goal. Otherwise the credits run out before all the reservations are filled. 

stever

Tesla Motors' gargantuan Gigafactory will open on 29 July (stuff.tv)

Not to be outdone, this was just announced - Volkswagen’s $11B Battery Factory (vs Tesla's measly $5 billion dollar one). (learnbonds.com)

VW "revealed that it needs the huge factory because it plans to be selling 1 million electric cars by 2025."

That's 9 years away folks.

The game is changing. There's about 90 million cars produced a year now - EVs will be approaching a good 2% of that by 2025.

Mr_Shiftright

The 2017 Chevy Volt can do everything an electric car can do, and more, and it's available right now. Game has already changed. You don't have to wait for a Model 3. You get 50 miles of range even with accessories on, (more than enough for most people's everyday errands) excellent acceleration in either electric or gas mode, 42 mpg in gasoline mode (should you ever need gas), home charging that's easy, and a similar price point. You also get it serviced at your local Chevy dealer.

And, no range anxiety to worry about.

stever

There's one Volt within 200 miles of me last I looked and we may go down to El Paso one of these days to check it out. I'd never have to put gas in it unless we hit the road. Assuming we'd get the $7,500 tax credit, the price is a pretty reasonable $32,000ish.

Our electric rates go up during the summer, so it may be cheaper to use it in gas mode for a couple of months.

Mr_Shiftright

Depends what you pay per KW vs. what you pay for a gallon of gas, of course. Still might be cheaper to use EV mode. Consider that you aren't full-charging the battery every night, as you might not consume those 50 EV miles every day. So you might only have to be on the charger for 4 hours.

The Chevy Volt is an amazing bit of technology and IMO renders most electric cars useless.

stever

True - some days the van doesn't leave the garage unless I push it out to play on the tablesaw or something.

And, it's a hatchback.

Today was the first day we've turned on the AC here; was a mild Spring and my May electric bill was $56 instead of last year's $76.

Mr_Shiftright

Native Americans didn't have air conditioning.

texases

Here's a great post by Edmunds of all the problems created by the 'Falcon Wings', many I hadn't considered but now see as absolute fails:
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-14-drawbacks-to-those-doors.html

Imagine living in the snow belt!

fintail

Hilarious. And the rich mature tech dorks who want to look edgy are still lining up.

gagrice

fintail said:

Hilarious. And the rich mature tech dorks who want to look edgy are still lining up.

You have to wonder how many of those pre purchase cars will be bought and resold to losers that will pay a premium for anything in short supply? It wasn't that many years ago you could sell a slightly used VW diesel in CA for thousands more than the manufacturers list price. Or the housing bubbles in the early 1970s then 80s and 2000. Put a $1000 down before they break ground and reap thousands when they are ready to move into. PT Barnum is alive and well, just changed his name to Elon Musk.

fintail

I have to repeat this when thinking of Musk:



I've read the Model 3 reservations aren't able to be re-sold, but I have my doubts that there isn't a way around that claim. I really want to see what will happen when the dopey tax incentive expires, or if they are weasel their way into an extension - sounds like something related to that trickle down nonsense I've been hearing about for most of my life.

It'd be something if similar incentives expired for real estate - it's as hyped here as Tesla, just don't ask where the money comes from.

texases

Latest news - the Model 3 owners don't get free fillups at the supercharger stations.

Fine with me, I struggle with why EV owners should get free fillups, HOV passes, and NO ROAD USE FEES, anyway.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, that seems to be rewarding the people who need it the least. They're already saving money on gas, and they have enough income to buy a brand spankin' new car in the first place.

I am by no means against the government momentarily subsidizing new technology that might prove beneficial to society as a whole, but I feel the money should be carefully spent in that regard.

stever

gagrice said:

fintail said:

Hilarious. And the rich mature tech dorks who want to look edgy are still lining up.

You have to wonder how many of those pre purchase cars will be bought and resold to losers that will pay a premium for anything in short supply?

I'm sure a few will show up on eBay as they are delivered.

If Elon has a $5 billion dollar scam rising in the Nevada desert, I guess we'll find out by August 1 since the plant is supposed to be open by then.

fintail

Add to that what is often a 10K++ tax break. The gap has to be compensated for somewhere.

texases said:

Latest news - the Model 3 owners don't get free fillups at the supercharger stations.

Fine with me, I struggle with why EV owners should get free fillups, HOV passes, and NO ROAD USE FEES, anyway.

gagrice

texases said:

Latest news - the Model 3 owners don't get free fillups at the supercharger stations.

Fine with me, I struggle with why EV owners should get free fillups, HOV passes, and NO ROAD USE FEES, anyway.

I agree, as those stations are also heavily subsidized by the tax payers. So all the cheapskates buying the Tesla 3 get no free lunch. Seems many Tesla owners use the superchargers exclusively to save on the high cost of electricity. Once you entitle someone to free stuff, it is not easy to take it away.

For Tesla Model 3 owners, Supercharger network will cost extra
Buyers of Tesla's most affordable electric car will have to buy a separate package to use the company's charging station network, CEO Elon Musk says.

http://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/for-tesla-model-3-owners-supercharger-network-will-cost-extra/

stever

A reporter is looking to talk with someone who traded in a hybrid or EV to buy a regular gas-powered vehicle. If you're willing to share your experience, please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by no later than June 6, 2016.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Small quibble about the beta comments. Software is never "finalized".

Gee that's funny. In the other forum you use the ability of software updates to fix some problems as a means to diminish the viability of technicians.

stever said:

"Not only is Tesla prohibited from selling cars here, but Michigan law prevents Tesla from working on customers’ cars within the state at company-owned service centers or using its roving Ranger team."

Talk about idiotic legislation. Sheesh.

That's consumer protectionist legislation that created the requirement for shops and technicians to be licensed and certified. You aren't trying to say that's a bad thing now are you?

stever

Software is never finalized in the same sense that a tech's education is never complete.

Are you suggesting that Tesla wants Michigan to allow them to hire unqualified techs to fix owner's cars in Michigan? Sounds to me more like they want to level the playing field and allow Tesla techs to be certified in Michigan.

Michigan is weird in some ways. Ask me how I know.

gagrice

SteverIf Elon has a $5 billion dollar scam rising in the Nevada desert, I guess we'll find out by August 1 since the plant is supposed to be open by then.

Would not be a surprise. The desert seems to attract scam artists. Seems the Mexicans have stuck it to the tax payers with their $2.6 billion solar fiasco. What do all alternatives seem to have in common. THE TAX PAYERS GET the SHAFT.....

An engineer (from India) working on a special work visa was informed in April 2013, that he must leave the country, since his visa expired. His Supervisor, Mr. Diego Manuel Rodriguez Gonzalez told him to stay in Victorville, working out of his apartment, while the company worked on renewing his visa stay. The engineer would come to the office in Victorville, CA, to pickup his work assignments two to three times per week, and work at home. His pay was coming out of Spain and he wasn't paying income taxes. In addition, this employee was enjoying full medical coverage, while staying illegally in the USA.


http://greencorruption.blogspot.com/2014/04/abengoa-atrocities-sequel-california.html#.V08gVpErKhc

Google is not off the hook with their little scam.

“$2.2 billion California project generates 40% of expected electricity” This past weekend’s Wall Street Journal has some unsurprising news about solar-thermal technology. Excerpts to follow, but, in short: It’s very expensive to build, it doesn’t deliver nearly the amount of projected power, and it kills birds: The $2.2 billion Ivanpah solar power project in California’s Mojave Desert is supposed to be generating more than a million megawatt-hours of electricity each year. But 15 months after starting up, the plant is producing just 40% of that, according to data from the U.S. Energy Department.

https://politicalhitjobs.wordpress.com/2016/03/18/ivanpah-solar-solyndra-like-project-in-california-found-to-be-crony-kick-back-scam/

stever

So, you're saying VW is right in there with the scammers eh?

thecardoc3

stever said:

Are you suggesting that Tesla wants Michigan to allow them to hire unqualified techs to fix owner's cars in Michigan? Sounds to me more like they want to level the playing field and allow Tesla techs to be certified in Michigan.

Actually I was asking you why you had a problem with Michigan's licensing. You did call it idiotic legislation.

gagrice

stever said:

So, you're saying VW is right in there with the scammers eh?

I think diesel gate pales in comparison to the various alternative energy scams the tax payers have been stuck with. When the dust settles on VW it will be a couple ambitious engineers involved. Or Bosch engineers and VW just used their programming.

stever

Must be my disconnect day.

I don't think the various state's efforts to keep Tesla from selling cars in their borders is justifiable and I don't think that preventing a Tesla tech from servicing a car purchased elsewhere is justifiable either.

My VW reference was to their building a battery factory that's going to cost twice as much as Tesla's. Who's getting scammed in that one - the EU government(s) or VW's shareholders or ?

Mr_Shiftright

gagrice said:

stever said:

So, you're saying VW is right in there with the scammers eh?

I think diesel gate pales in comparison to the various alternative energy scams the tax payers have been stuck with. When the dust settles on VW it will be a couple ambitious engineers involved. Or Bosch engineers and VW just used their programming.

Not really. This is going to cost VW a boatload of money. Can they afford it? Sure, but that's money they could have used elsewhere.

And I think there is a difference between speculation gone awry and outright fraud (the latter being VW).

gagrice

And I think there is a difference between speculation gone awry and outright fraud (the latter being VW).

True, however, with speculation the speculators expect a possible ROI. Way too many of our speculative ventures are just money into fat cat pockets. No gain for the tax payers only loss. That would of course include our ventures into foreign countries like Afghanistan. I like to go back to Warren Buffett's statement that investing in wind farms without subsidies would be stupid. I think most corporate welfare is a form of fraud.

Buffet told an audience in Omaha, Nebraska recently. "For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That's the only reason to build them. They don't make sense without the tax credit."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/nancy-pfotenhauer/2014/05/12/even-warren-buffet-admits-wind-energy-is-a-bad-investment

stever

I wonder what will happen when the wind stops blowing? Dams are so much better all the way around.

fintail

I don't know if it could be fraud, but isn't Tesla fond of creative accounting? Definitely not a snow white innocent party if one is going to be pointing fingers