Is Tesla A Game Changer?

PF_Flyer

But if I wanted to buy a Tesla, a Ford dealer can't match the price since they don't sell the product, correct? A competing, similar product, but a different product

scwmcan

The same logic applies to any car then though, if you want to buy a Ford truck the GM dealer can't match the price, another Ford dealer can, so I think that is the point you may have been trying to make, but a GM or Toyota dealer can't make you a deal on a new Ford.

PF_Flyer

Exactly. What I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around is the validity of a protest of the way Tesla markets their cars, especially calling it a "consumer protection" issue. If I choose to buy a Tesla direct, and there's no "dealership" for me to walk into if there's a problem or warranty issue, that's a choice that *I* made, right? Nobody is hiding any of that from me.

I really wish people would stop trying to protect me from myself, especially when it really seems that they are trying to protect their self-interest

Mr_Shiftright

I think the point is that with direct selling Tesla can just fold its tent in a matter of days; whereas with a dealer infrastructure the consumer would have plenty of warning. Saturn and Oldsmobile owners at least had a place to go for service. If Tesla folds, you're pretty much stuck. Ask a Fisker owner--their cars are being gutted and refitted with Chevy engines.

Keep in mind that part of this resistance is that it is Tesla, not Ford. Tesla has been burning capital for about 10 years now without profit and only sells 35,000 cars a year. So the company does not present a glowing future to legislators.

PF_Flyer

If I, as a consumer, don't know that Tesla could be gone next week, and that it's NOT a traditional business, that's on me, isn't it? It's not like the whole burning capital thing is a well-kept secret.

Or is the accepted way of "thinking" (very loosely applied)... Ooh look! Something shiny. It will be here FOREVER because *I* want it to be.

stever

DeLorean redux?

PF_Flyer

stever said:

DeLorean redux?

Only if it has the flux capacitor trim level

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the point is that with direct selling Tesla can just fold its tent in a matter of days; whereas with a dealer infrastructure the consumer would have plenty of warning. Saturn and Oldsmobile owners at least had a place to go for service. If Tesla folds, you're pretty much stuck. Ask a Fisker owner--their cars are being gutted and refitted with Chevy engines.

Keep in mind that part of this resistance is that it is Tesla, not Ford. Tesla has been burning capital for about 10 years now without profit and only sells 35,000 cars a year. So the company does not present a glowing future to legislators.

Not to mention the tax payers and every car buyer chip in to keep Tesla afloat for the affluent.

fintail

There definitely needs to be a MSRP cap on that tax break, no more than 40K or so - just my (correct) opinion.

gagrice said:

Not to mention the tax payers and every car buyer chip in to keep Tesla afloat for the affluent.

Mr_Shiftright

Tesla isn't going to make money until it can make a car just as good as an ICE car. Their car might be faster than most, and better looking than many, but it's not as good. Even the humblest ICE 5-passenger sedan can go 300+ miles

stever

"Toyota this week officially rolled out what it's betting will mark "a turning point" in automotive history — a sleek, affordable, eco-friendly "future" car that can drive for 300 miles, takes less than five minutes to charge and comes with three years of free fuel.

It's everything haters of gas-guzzling car culture could love. And the biggest name in electric cars hates it."

Meet the fast-charging, affordable ‘future’ car that Elon Musk hates (Washington Post)

texases

For once I think Elon's right. H2 is not an energy source, it's gotta be made, at great expense. Waste of time/$$, IMHO.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it'll be an interesting face-off. Reminds me of the early battles in automotive history among steam, gasoline and electric cars. Steam cars had the power, electric cars were the cleanest and simplest to operate, and gasoline cars were the most versatile. It was touch-and-go until around 1912, when Kettering perfected the electric starter motor for the gasoline cars, eliminating the dangerous nuisance of hand-cranking and thus inviting women to drive (and women were almost the entire electric car market at the time). This also left steam cars, with their long warmup times and complicated operation (yeah, they did blow up), way behind as well.

Anyone placing any bets yet? Now the race is hydrogen, electric or gasoline.

stever

One thing that appeals to me about EVs is that you can fill-up at home. You could do that with a CNG Honda too (for a while anyway). Figure out the range and battery issue and except for road trips, you never have to go get "gas" with an EV. Seems like that's a big benefit often left out of the equation.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh the brutal hardship of going to a gas station---you can do that while you're out, you know....:)

Sure, you can fill up at home, if you don't plan on going anywhere with the car in the evening.

Really if you own an EV.....ANY EV.....you need two cars at least. And anyone who doesn't have off-street parking is in for a hassle.

So I don't see charging at home as a "big" benefit if you step back and look hard at it.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh the brutal hardship of going to a gas station---you can do that while you're out, you know....:)

Sure, you can fill up at home, if you don't plan on going anywhere with the car in the evening.

Really if you own an EV.....ANY EV.....you need two cars at least. And anyone who doesn't have off-street parking is in for a hassle.

So I don't see charging at home as a "big" benefit if you step back and look hard at it.

I can't see myself driving a pure EV ... something like the Volt would be much better.

stever

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh the brutal hardship of going to a gas station---you can do that while you're out, you know....:)

Sure, you can fill up at home, if you don't plan on going anywhere with the car in the evening.

Really if you own an EV.....ANY EV.....you need two cars at least. And anyone who doesn't have off-street parking is in for a hassle.

So I don't see charging at home as a "big" benefit if you step back and look hard at it.

I think it's a chore. With an EV, get home, plug and snooze. If you decide you need a midnight snack, unplug and go to Denny's, plug 'er back in when you get back. Put some panels on the roof and your cost per mile goes way down, even with the initial capital expense.

My van's a quart low and I'm not due for an oil change for another 1,000 miles. Talk about another chore. Non-issue with an EV.

Mr_Shiftright

Solar panels on the roof of a $130,000 car? yeah, real attractive Steve! LOL! Beverly Hillbillies?

stever

lol, I meant the roof of the house. But you can get a solar sunroof on some Prius models.

fintail

Remember, the slightly charlatan-tastic Tesla promoters used fueling time as a monetary calculation in the cost to own - billing it at $100/hr and claiming 15 minutes to fill. This stuff can't be made up.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh the brutal hardship of going to a gas station---you can do that while you're out, you know....:)

Sure, you can fill up at home, if you don't plan on going anywhere with the car in the evening.

Really if you own an EV.....ANY EV.....you need two cars at least. And anyone who doesn't have off-street parking is in for a hassle.

So I don't see charging at home as a "big" benefit if you step back and look hard at it.

gagrice

Maybe Tesla is priced too cheap to interest mainstream $millionaires.

The boom in business, for the most part, comes from a simple supply-demand relationship: Growing ranks of wealthy consumers want more opulent toys. At the end of last year, about 211,000 people had a net worth of at least $30 million—a 13 percent increase from 2011, according to UBS and the research firm Wealth-X. For a person worth $30 million, purchasing a car for a mere $100,000 isn’t a weighty decision. It’s akin to the median U.S. consumer with net worth of $45,000 swinging by the used car lot and dropping $1,350 on a well-worn Pontiac Aztek.

Car companies are also doing a better job of price segmentation, the practice of separating customers by willingness to pay. For thousands of elite consumers, there's not much difference between spending $300,000 on a car and $1.2 million on a rarified version of the same kind of car. This explains the recent rash of ultra-expensive sports cars produced in small batches. Ferrari only made 499 of the LaFerrari, the surprise hybrid sports car rolled out at the 2013 gathering in Geneva. Each one had a price tag above $1 million. Porsche, meanwhile, made only 918 of its Model 918, a car that started at $840,000. Lamborghini bested them both, making just three of its 12-cylinder Veneno model and selling them for $3.9 million each.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-25/hyper-luxury-cars-are-now-selling-faster-than-normal-ones

slorenzen

Now Gary, don't you go pickin' on my Aztek...

gagrice

slorenzen said:

Now Gary, don't you go pickin' on my Aztek...

I cannot take credit for that, it was Bloomberg. Do you hide one in the Garage???

slorenzen

gagrice said:

slorenzen said:

Now Gary, don't you go pickin' on my Aztek...

I cannot take credit for that, it was Bloomberg. Do you hide one in the Garage???

Well, If I owned one, yes, I'd hide it in the garage...

stever

lol, that hertz.

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, did you hear about the electric car company that went out of business?

They gave out batteries free of charge!

badda-boom!

slorenzen

Mr_Shiftright said:

Hey, did you hear about the electric car company that went out of business?

They gave out batteries free of charge!

badda-boom!

I see what you did there...

stever

I want one of these now, plus it collapses so it won't have to be cartopped and block the solar roof when I haul it to the lake.

gagrice

I think I would prefer the double Kayak model, like my little brother's. Cost a bit more than a Tesla, but all a write-off if you keep it in a rental pool in St Martin.

stever

In keeping with the marine theme, Tesle presents an Easter egg.

Tesla Model S has a hidden James Bond mode (theverge.com)

gagrice

What is it like to have the money to plunk down $866,000 for a car that probably does not run? Probably a write off for Musk, or subsidized by US low life tax payers.

stever

You can get the same feeling by going down and plunking $40 on a new shirt.

It's an even better feeling finding a nice shirt at the thrift for $4 though.

gagrice

I don't think I have bought a new shirt in 20 years. I have over 75 Hawaiian shirts 90% of which I bought in thrift shops. I do buy new T-shirts once in a while. Though I have way too many of them. I only buy name brand Hawaiian shirts that were made in Hawaii. Many go for big bucks on eBay. Elon Musk dresses like he shops at the Goodwill.

stever

Smart guy.

gagrice

stever said:

Smart guy.

No doubt about it.

Mr_Shiftright

Musk is betting against Toyota. I would never bet against Toyota.

stever

Their partnership fell apart rather badly. And now Toyota is going hydrogen on them.

Why the Tesla-Toyota Partnership Short-Circuited (Bloomberg)

I'd blame it on personalities, but look at Daimler-Chrysler. Then again Dr. Z has a bit of a reputation too I guess.

Mr_Shiftright

I couldn't think of a worse marriage than Musk the Entrepreneur and the stolid conservative world of the Japanese corporate businessman. I mean really, when was the last time you heard of a Silicon Valley exec being publicly shamed after a product failure?

Mr_Shiftright

This from Audi chief engineer Ulrich Hackenberg"

"“In early 2018, we will launch a battery-powered sports activity vehicle in the large premium segment with a range of more than 500 kilometers (300 miles),” "

Looks like they are shooting for Tesla's Model X.

texases

Prices should be interesting...

stever

Telsa is starting to learn how the game is played.

"Tesla launched an assault on the entrenched auto industry by going before the California Air Resources Board (CARB) last week with data showing that the auto industry has been actively and successfully lobbying against fuel efficiency improvements that the state has been working towards for the last 20 years. Specifically, Tesla’s Vice President of Business Development Diarmuid O’Connell shared that lobbying has fundamentally set the state back in achieving its air pollution reduction goals — which is essentially the charter of CARB."

Tesla Lining Up Broadside Attack On Auto Industry Lobbying (cleantechnica.com)

texases

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle...Tesla exists solely on the $$ it gets in government incentives, either directly or indirectly (EV rebates). So I have no sympathy for their complaints. Sure, complain about an issue that has no impact on them (mpg requirements).

stever

Maybe they can get another grant specifically dedicated to lobbying?

gagrice

Edmund's does not paint a pretty picture of their long term Tesla experience. 21 warranty issues, including several Found Dead Along the Road.

"The Model S is comfortable, luxurious and it feels substantial on the road. And it is fast. Like supercar fast.... The Tesla does not like crosswinds. For several miles, keeping the sedan true in the lane was difficult. Nothing severe, but not the kind of dynamic flaw you find in a Mercedes S-Class or a Porsche Panamera." — Scott Oldham

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

Mr_Shiftright

Seems like it would be a frightening car to buy once out of warranty.

stever

I think the trick there would be to buy a used one from Tesla and get the 4/50 warranty.

But four years can pass quickly.....

stever

Interesting chart from one of Tesla's company reports, via Motley Fool:

fintail

Of course,we won't look at 2013-2014, or see that almost all of those models are coming off new model highs, or are very old with buyers waiting for the replacement. Cherry picking, just like valuing time at a filling station at $100/hr and including that as a deduction in the "real" price of a lease.

It'll be verrry interesting when the wacky tax incentives finally expire.

texases

I'm SO happy to see my tax $$ helped some poor slob pick an S instead of an S550...

Mr_Shiftright

Incentives will start decreasing after the 200,000 sales mark, and will completely dry up in...what?...is it 18 months after the 200K mark is hit? Something like that. Tesla missed its quarterly projection for 2016 but stock rebounded on the strength of these "pre-orders". How many people actually end up buying a car from the pre-order is a big question mark. Also the Chevy Bolt, a good competitor to the Model 3, will be selling cars long before the 3 rolls off the assembly line.