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Is Tesla A Game Changer?

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Looks like Reno rolls the 7.

    "Electric car maker Tesla Motors said Thursday that it is preparing a site near Reno, Nevada, as a possible location for its new battery factory, but is still evaluating other sites.

    Tesla said it broke ground on the Nevada site in June. It said further that a final decision on the location for the $5 billion factory will be made in the next few months. Tesla has dubbed the proposed facility the "gigafactory," and says it could employ 6,500 people by 2020."

    Tesla says decision on battery factory months away (Las Cruces Sun-News)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    "In February 2013, I wrote that after driving my Model S, I couldn’t drive my Mercedes–Benz any more — it was like listening to an old cassette tape. I compared my Tesla to a supermodel working a Paris catwalk and the Porches and Ferraris owned by my friends to supercharged lawn mowers.

    But then I realized that wasn’t a fair comparison. They’re cars of different categories and prices. It wasn’t an either, or: this car was for a different market."

    What happens when a Tesla fanboy meets the Mercedes-Benz electric car (Washington Post)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I'm gonna drive one Friday 8/22---I'll let you all know what I think.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2014

    The other day I replaced my gas cap to fix an EVAP code. I toyed with the idea of getting a locking cap. These days the crooks are just as likely to puncture the tank and drain it instead of siphoning the gas anyway.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415

    MB with "deafening" engine noise and hesitation? I'd be curious to know which model the wealthy academic owned (or if he could even name it). Even AMG cars are pretty quiet unless at WOT.

    I wonder how much stock he owns...

    Time to end the tax breaks. Now.

    @stever said:
    "In February 2013, I wrote that after driving my Model S, I couldn’t drive my Mercedes–Benz any more —

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    ROAD TEST TESLA!

    Okay, I'm just back from a good long 45 minute road test of the Tesla S and here's what happened:

    Styling Exterior-- I liked the styling very much "in person". For a large, heavy car it does a nice job of disguising its size and weight. There are no jarring lines or kitschy details.

    Styling Interior -- nice choice of fabrics or leathers and trim. Not a warm and friendly place though--maybe if you choose the wood grain trim option, you'd feel a bit more cozy. It feels like I'm sitting in an iPhone. Speaking of seats---

    Comfort -- seats are TOO HARD, especially in back. Punishing. And the rear floor is very high in relation to the seat level, so that tall people sit "knees up". I would not be a big fan of this car if I were relegated to the rear seat. Front seats are better, but the windshield is too narrow top to bottom. One gets the feeling that if the road suddenly started to rise, you'd lose the sky completely (probably not but one does get the "tank slit" impression now and then).

    Accessories -- you'd kind of expect more for your money. There's a giant NAV and DIC screen, but the NAV doesn't give you directions unless you buy the $3700 additional "tech package". So for $85,000, you don't get turn by turn directions or voice command. Say what?! Also no driver assist such as lane avoidance or collision avoidance, even if you option all the way up to the $130,000 maximum Tesla. There's also no SAT radio. They did build in Slacker and there's a 3G system. Very nice driver interface and good ergonomics all in all.

    Performance -- acceleration is awesome. Feels like 400+ HP, Crazy fast car for its size. Crisp turn in, flat cornering, but you can certainly tell the car wants to go straight in a turn. This isn't a sports sedan.

    Driving -- easy to drive but the regenerative braking takes some getting used to. It takes a little while to become smooth driving the car. Realistic range in normal driving? I'd say 250 miles max. Push it hard and it's down from there.

    Shifty's Verdict -- an impressive bit of engineering but conventional luxury cars are already surpassing it in features, and probably for less money.

    it's time for Tesla to up its game.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The news is reporting that Tesla can now sell cars direct in Massachusetts.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Hmm...latest guess is that the Tesla 3 (the 'affordable' Tesla) will cost WAY more that $35k:
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094442_tesla-battery-cost-new-report-suggests-model-3-to-cost-50k-or-more?kinja
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    $50K? That's getting into pickup territory. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    And still with a tax break no doubt
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited September 2014
    Turns out Nevada is going to pay $78,000 per job created by Tesla. What's ironic is that state legislatures are really not paying for "new" jobs, but in many cases merely for moving jobs from state to state by outbidding their rivals. Moreover, part of the tax breaks include Tesla not paying school taxes, so that the children of these new employees will not be educated with Tesla profits. At 78K a pop, seems to me that the payoff for Nevada is in the distant horizon. They could give 3X as many unemployed families enough money to meet minimum Federal income standards while they re-train them for other work.

    I'm surprised that taxpayers in these states are not motivated to activism by these tactics, but they seem strangely reluctant to really look into what's involved here.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Jobs get politicians to do crazy stuff. I guess it's better than the extortion used by sports teams to get stadiums built.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The Tesla CEO says that next year, his company’s cars will be able to drive themselves about 90% of the time on a highway — which of course, doesn’t include trying to maneuver through dense cities packed with cars.

    “Autonomous cars will definitely be a reality,” he tells CNNMoney in an interview. “A Tesla car next year will probably be 90% capable of autopilot. Like, so 90% of your miles can be on auto. For sure highway travel.”

    Elon Musk Predicts Tesla Cars Will Be Able To Drive Themselves 90% Of The Time In 2015 (consumerist.com)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So he's out of the car business and into mass transit? Well....okay.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    I'm gonna drive one Friday 8/22---I'll let you all know what I think.>

    Ca

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    So he's out of the car business and into mass transit? Well....okay.

    Aren't they all? We enthusiasts don't generally like this autonomous driving trend, because we enjoy driving, it's part of our skill set (exemplified by your handle, "shiftright"), and we identify with our unique driving style. However, many younger people and the next yet-to-be-born generation will embrace it. We also associate driving with freedom and, to some extent, adventure. For us, getting a drivers license was a rite of passage.

    For many young people, by contrast, driving is just another chore, and getting a drivers license is not a big deal. Also, many people, regulators, and the insurance industry assign a lot of value to the purported safety attributed to autonomous driving. In 30 years, give or take a few, driving will be a lost art. It'll still be available for those who want to drive, just as horseback riding still is today, but it won't be part of our daily routine. My guess is that eventually driving won't even be an option on many public roads. Sadly for us, most of the topics on Edmunds will be obsolete.

    Already, cameras and nannies on new cars are supplanting the skills we learned and cherished.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the autonomous car is a response to the incredibly bad mass transportation sysems we have in the USA. It's a way of shifting the massive costs of mass transit infrastructure onto the consumer. Young people may not enjoying driving anymore, but they do enjoy going places, and they love gadgetry. So the Tesla concepts make a lot of sense from a business point of view. Their cars just won't be any fun.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2014
    Also coming - an all wheel drive version of the Model S.

    Analysts Predict Tesla Adding All-Wheel-Drive to Model S (Bloomberg)
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    edited October 2014
    WSJ had an article on batteries this morning, lead in was this (unfortunately it is behind a pay wall):

    "There is no Moore’s law for batteries. That is, while the computing power of microchips doubles every 18 months, the capacity of the batteries on which ever more of our gadgets depend exhibits no such exponential growth. In a good year, the capacity of the best batteries in our mobile phones, tablets and notebook computers—and increasingly, in our cars and household gadgets—increases just a few percent.

    It turns out that storing energy safely and reliably is hard in a way that miniaturizing circuits is not. A pound of [gasoline has 20 time the energy of a pound of batteries.]"

    It went on from there, and noted that the slow progress in batteries is why Tesla is willing to commit to today's technology (Li-Ion) batteries for the mega plant.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Tesla has to make some moves---their current Model S is totally outclassed in the 2015 luxury car market.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    The new Tesla sedan was supposed to start at $35k, but the analysis I reference above says it'll be tough to come in under $50k. Batteries in the S cost $30, all by themselves.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well given all the great gadgets you can buy on many cars today costing a mere $35K, the new Tesla better have all the latest technology.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Franchised dealerships increase competition, service vehicles that need warranty or recall-repair work, and provide jobs and tax revenue for local economies, Forrest McConnell III, an Alabama Honda dealer, said today at an Automotive Press Association event in Detroit.

    “The franchise system is the best way to go,” he said, adding that he likes Tesla’s Model S. The NADA, which represents almost 16,000 new-car dealers, has opposed the Tesla’s decision to forgo the use of franchised dealerships while leaving legal challenges up to states.

    U.S. Dealers Defend Franchise System Amid Tesla’s Threat (Bloomberg)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Tesla Motors confirmed Thursday night that it will launch an all-wheel drive version of its Model S electric sedan.

    Musk said while there will be a wait for the dual motor models, all trim levels of the Model S made since the last week of September have been rolling out of the factory with the hardware installed for a Tesla "autopilot" safety system."

    Tesla Announces Model S-D With All-Wheel Drive and Active Safety Enhancements
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Any guess on the S-D's price? I'm guessing $120k.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Probably a good guess. They want to compete with the LS ($80k) and the S Class is $98k, so that would be in the ballpark and the extra $20k would cover the EV cachet of the Tesla.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Tesla announced the coming of an AWD model as well as some advanced driver-assist technology (sorry older Teslas cannot be retro-fitted), so they are definitely ramping up (or catching up) to complete with the likes of Lexus and Mercedes and Audi. Tesla promises some additional features, like the car parking itself in the garage and coming out of the garage with the heater on when you press a button. Not sure if that's clever or ridiculous...I'll think about that one.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    This is from Ars Technica"

    "The 85 kWh version will be available for delivery in December, while the 60D and P85D models will begin delivery in February. The 60D and 85D will carry a $4,000 price premium over their read-wheel drive variants, while the top P85D adds $14,600 to the P85's already high $93,400 base price. Autopilot is rolled into the technology package, which is a $4,250 option. A stripped 60D with no options beyond the base configuration will cost $75,070, while a fully kitted out P85D with every option except for winter tires will cost $137,720 (both prices are without incentives and before taxes)."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The D models are meant to compete in the NE mostly, where Tesla has been at a distinct disadvantage against AWD cars. Probably a fully optioned 85D in California is going to be $150K out the door.

    A fully equipped Audi A8 twin turbo V8 Quattro will price out at about $105K.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    The D models are meant to compete in the NE mostly, where Tesla has been at a distinct disadvantage against AWD cars. Probably a fully optioned 85D in California is going to be $150K out the door.

    A fully equipped Audi A8 twin turbo V8 Quattro will price out at about $105K.

  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694

    The D models are meant to compete in the NE mostly, where Tesla has been at a distinct disadvantage against AWD cars. Probably a fully optioned 85D in California is going to be $150K out the door.

    A fully equipped Audi A8 twin turbo V8 Quattro will price out at about $105K.

    45K buys a LOT of premium fuel.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    While I know Tesla had to start expensive to get things going, this constant focus on high price cars is wearing thin, if they're to have any credibility as a 'real' solution to anything. Getting a few thousand folks out of their S550s isn't much of an accomplishment, to me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Tesla is not a car for a shopper looking to "save on gas".

    The Tesla is more like a Rolex watch or the most expensive iPad you can buy.

    I think buyers treat the car as a high-tech toy and I think stockholders treat the stock like a high tech stock.
    slorenzen said:

    The D models are meant to compete in the NE mostly, where Tesla has been at a distinct disadvantage against AWD cars. Probably a fully optioned 85D in California is going to be $150K out the door.

    A fully equipped Audi A8 twin turbo V8 Quattro will price out at about $105K.

    45K buys a LOT of premium fuel.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the entire 100K+ class fits in there. Talk to a MB salesman, he'll tell you that many new AMG buyers just want the most expensive thing on the lot.

    The performance of this new variant is impressive, but Tesla interior materials/design, and to some degree, exterior design, now needs to mature. I am not expecting to see S-class sales plummet.

    The Tesla is not a car for a shopper looking to "save on gas".

    The Tesla is more like a Rolex watch or the most expensive iPad you can buy.

    I think buyers treat the car as a high-tech toy and I think stockholders treat the stock like a high tech stock.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    S class has nothing to fear from the Model S.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    The Model S P85D Autopilot test flight. Impressive hands-free driving with hands free parking coming later this year or early next.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7quu551ehc0
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Autonomous cars are going to be a hard, hard sell to the American public. Possibly introducing various auto pilot features bit by bit might help to overcome resistance but trying to market a self-driving car right now would be, IMO, a big bust.

    Besides, there are major obstacles still to be overcome, such as teaching a computer to make "judgment calls" or to obey hand signals from road workers or traffic cops.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2014
    Ah, but you and I don't have a commute. If I did, letting the car drive me home would be great. I'd be playing on a tablet or napping..

    Next up, junk the HOV lanes and convert them to autonomous lanes, and watch the trains of cars go by.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For $130,000 you can just call a taxi to take you everywhere.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Did you shop for an EV but ultimately decided not to buy one? A reporter wants to learn more about what went into your decision. If you'd like to help, please contact pr@edmunds.com by no later than October 25, 2014.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Electric car-maker Tesla Motors Inc. called a Michigan bill that would prevent automakers from selling vehicles directly to customers a "raw deal" in a blog post Thursday."

    Tesla blog calls Michigan bill "a raw deal" (Detroit News)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    From today's Automotive News (where's Tesla?)...

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20141103/RETAIL/141109964


  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Tesla is having a huge flap with the WSJ, Autodata and Ward's, which all show Tesla sales down for the year, while Musk insists that they are up. Musk tweets back: "

    "Article in @WSJ re Tesla sales is incorrect," he tweeted-- "September was a record high WW and up 65% year-over-year in North America."

    Fortune magazine wonders if Musk is '"guilty of some terminological inexactitude."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    Tesla is having a huge flap with the WSJ, Autodata and Ward's, which all show Tesla sales down for the year, while Musk insists that they are up. Musk tweets back: "

    "Article in @WSJ re Tesla sales is incorrect," he tweeted-- "September was a record high WW and up 65% year-over-year in North America."

    Fortune magazine wonders if Musk is '"guilty of some terminological inexactitude."

    I'm sure the truth will be sorted out soon.

    My take is that while Tesla's U.S. sales are down, year-over year, global sales are up.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Just got back from a trip to Europe, saw several Tesla S...taxis! Not what I would have expected, doesn't seem to be a good application of the technology. The Amsterdam taxi driver we talked to (E class turbo diesel) thought of it as a publicity stunt, the Tesla didn't have enough range for his daily drive.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah, probably government-sponsored PR. The Dutch are greenies, for sure. I mean, look what they give over to bicycles in Amsterdam!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Yikes, the bikes! Walking was a death sport...almost. Do NOT walk across the path of a bike there, they seem to have the right of way over all others.
  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    texases said:

    Yikes, the bikes! Walking was a death sport...almost. Do NOT walk across the path of a bike there, they seem to have the right of way over all others.

    As I recall, the only safe crosswalk is the striped one. I learned to cross in the middle of the block, so I could see further down the block.

    Pedestrians are targets in Netherlands.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Tesla taxi cabs....well, I never!

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