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Comments
My posts revolved around Bama and you and ABS. Bama said he needs it...you said you pump your own and its not needed. I said you Tundra owners should get your act together....don't you remember? LMAO!!!
I think that Ndahi12 presented a very compelling argument against the additional cost and complexity of ABS.
At least with the Tundra it is an option! With the Chev you have to take what they give you.
Things are getting out of hand and the computer problems I'm having are NOT helping me stay on top of this like I should.
So can you PLEASE agree to disagree??
Thanks
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
Or is it related to connectivity?
I also priced the Tundra with Tow capability. Here are the Tundra options and the Rado LS 1500 side by side:
2002 Rado Extended Cab 1500 LS 4x2
* PCM Convenience Pkg., Electrical
(N/A Base) (Std. LT) Includes Inside Automatic Day/Night Mirror & Fog Lights.
* Z85 Suspension Pkg., H.D. Base, LS & LT 4WD
(Req's Tires-QCC or QCJ on 2WD Models)
* Z82 Trailering Equipment, Special H.D.
(N/A w/Suspension Pkg.-Z83) (Req's LR4 4.8L or LM7 5.3L Engine) Includes Platform Trailer Hitch, 7-Wire Trailer Harness, High Capacity Air Cleaner & Transmission Oil Cooling.
* G80 Axle, Limited Slip Rear
* UP0 Radio, AM/FM Stereo w/CD & Cassette
* A95 Seats, Bucket; LS w/Seat Trim-D
* PF9 Wheels, Polished Cast Aluminum
* QCC (5) P255/70R16 BSW
2002 Tundra SR5 Access cab 4X2
VP Convenience package
LD Limited Slip
CF Floor mats
LF fog lights
DH Towing system
DZ Deluxe Am/FM radio/cassette/cd w/6speakers
CC Captain Chairs
AL Alloy wheels w/265/70R16 M&S tires
Rear sliding window (standard)
Transmission cooler (standard)
HD Bilestin TRD shocks for $319. Yes the stock shocks SUCK on the Tundra.
So what are the excuses now?
Pickup trucks need ABS more than passenger vehicles in my opinion. This is because pickups can vary hugely in weight. There is much different braking requirements in a empty truck than a truck loaded to the max. While brake proportioning valves help this problem - I think that ABS does a better job overall.
I live in a very wet climate and ABS works great on wet roads. You just have to remember to tromp on them and let the brake system do the rest. You will be amazed at how short and perfectly straight the Tundra will stop with ABS.
ndahi12 said:
I would go w/o ABS. I like to modulate my own brakes. I never liked ABS and I race cars for a hobby.
Also if you do not intend to go off road, then do not get a 4X4. Get a 4X2 with a limited slip. That is what I did and I need my truck for towing once a month and as a daily driver.
The more complicated the truck becmomes the more stuff will breka on it. That is why I did not get the ABS and the 4X4. Why do I need more options that I do not use (4X4) and have not proved their effectivness (ABS)
I thought it was rather confusing. What would you say is the general consensus among you Tundra owners regarding this ABS thing and lack of a Dynamic Brake Proportioning System?
So you're saying that because GM doesn't offer us an option on ABS, that it is a problem? Well, I guess that makes sense as you've posted it in the Silverado problems topic......
I do not care if Chevy offers ABS standard or not. My point is that ABS has not proven its effectiveness as shown in the article that I listed.
If Chevy offers ABS standard, then good for them and you. I personally do not like ABS and I stated why. IIHS agrees with my position. Those with ABS have more accidents than those w/o ABS.
I do not care why this happens. Maybe people with ABS are overconfident because of ABS. They mistakenly think that they can brake later and stop earlier. Or they pump their brake with the ABS because they have had that habit.
Regardless of the cause, the result is the same: cars with ABS brakes have a higher crash rate than those w/o ABS.
"So you're saying that because GM doesn't offer us an option on ABS, that it is a problem? Well, I guess that makes sense as you've posted it in the Silverado problems topic...... "
was directed at Bamatundra.
BTW, IIHS studies said one thing, "We need more study to find out why antilocks are impressive on the test track but not on the road."
The data analogy suggests a larger sample size and more detail and filters to find the root of the problem. It isn't the technology, its the education.....but by saying that it wasn't proven technology....how is that?
Maybe more people had accidents with ABS brakes because they were like obyone - they were uneducated and didn't realize ABS can actually LENGTHEN/INCREASE the distance/time it takes to stop, especially on gravel and SNOW - the reason so many people have ABS.
I'm glad Toyota doesn't build ABS into all their trucks. I'm glad I can get a fully loaded Tacoma with the exception of having ABS and auto-tranny. Chevy - can't do that.
We have also had the pinging and 'lifter' noise. We got rid of the pinging completely with a the following combination: lower temp. thermostat, one heat range lower spark plugs GAPPED CORRECTLY, and 89 octane fuel. Runs great even when pulling hard now.
I think we get to just live with the lifter ticking though.
Happy Holidays!
This shows me how little you know about race car drivers. We do not pump our brakes. We are either on the brake or on the throttle. I have yet to find a race car driver that pumps their brake. As for brake fade, we do not have that either. We use Motul 600 brake fluid, stainless steel brake lines and aggressive race brake pads. I have yet to experience brake fade on my race car.
Regarding snow and gravel - a non-ABS car will actually stop faster than an ABS car. Why? Because the snow and gravel piles up and makes a wedge in front of the tires on the non-ABS car, creating more fricion. I think so many people get into accidents with their ABS cars because they do not understand this point. They are over-confident their ABS will stop them shorter on snow (snow is the main reason people want ABS). It doesn't. It only makes their stop more controllable because the wheels won't lock up, but the stopping distance many times will be greater than anticipated.
To really understand how braking works, you need to understand the difference between static friction (non-moving) and dynamic friction (moving). This is best demonstrated with a little experiment. Take a brick, lay it on its side, and attach a small spring-scale's end to the brick. Now pull the scale parallel to the floor or whatever surface you're using, dragging the brick. What do you notice happened?
When you were trying to put the brick into motion from a standstill, your scale may have read around 10 lbs of force or so on the brick before it budged and started moving. But after the brick was in motion, your scale may have read only around 7 or 8lbs of force was required to keep dragging the brick. What is the point?
The point is static friction is always greater than dynamic friction in the same situation. There was more friction between the brick and the floor when the brick was still and not sliding, hence more force was required to overcome this friction to put the brick into motion. But there was less friction between the brick and the floor when the brick was SLIDING, hence less force was required to keep the brick in motion.
Your tires do the exact same thing. Even though your tire is rolling and is in motion, relative to the ground, it is "still" because the tire's surface isn't sliding over the ground. This is a static friction situation, meaning there is more friction between the tires and the ground. Lock up your brakes, and suddenly you become involved in a dynamic friction situation - now the tire is sliding over the ground (just like the brick in motion) and there is actually less friction between the sliding tire and the ground. Less friction = longer stopping distances/times.
This is why threshold braking (braking to the maximum point just before wheel-lockup) or ABS will stop you faster than just locking up the wheels on SOME surfaces, but not all. There's so many variables that can affect braking it's staggering, like tires, snow and gravel's tendency to wedge under the tires, temperature, etc.
All I'm saying is if you can threshold brake well, you will get all the advantages ABS offers, with none of ABS' disadvantages it has in other situations.
Even if you read track reviews on high-performance sports cars (which aren't even race cars), the articles many times say they didn't experience brake fade, lap after lap. I'm sure racecars (designed for multiple-lap, hard braking) have even stronger, more fade-resistant brakes.
foot still on the gas! (in most cases)
Watch that in car camera closely !
I shouldn't have to enlighten you about the superiority of our "non-ABS, drum brakes" AGAIN! How many times does it have to be said: Tundras stop faster than Silverados, even LOADED Tundras stop faster than EMPTY Silverados.
You said it bud. Our brakes are superior.
I'm not going to look for the link, as it's already been posted numerous times in the past, but even a loaded Tundra proved to brake shorter than an empty Shakerado.
I liked the source of info from your link, too. Did you see the bottom of the page, where the performance figures actually came from www.Toyota.com or www.Chevy.com? Why didn't you post a link from a review/comparison where the trucks were ACTUALLY tested against eachother? The fact that the loaded Tundra stops faster than an empty Whimperado means:
A. Toyota underestimated the Tundra's brakes
B. Chevy overestimated the Whimperado's brakes
Wow, convincing argument you have there, obyone/quad/52farmin.
Peter
To quote you...From now on, I'll be at the Toyota boards. You Chevy "guys" are something else, LOL!
Please honor your word or is that to much to ask!
A non response from you, will be appropriate enough for me to see you got the message and can live by your own statements!
P F FLYER: Is this board destined to failure? I am getting to the point of hanging up on Edmunds because they allow this BS to continue, please edit out those that choose to argue and DON'T OWN SILVERADO'S, they are here for the sake of argument only and offer nothing OF IMPORTANCE to a SILVERADO OWNER!
Ray T.
Pluto, ndahi12, Bama, you guys like your Tundras? Good, we like our Rados. Now please GROW UP!
You guys will have to convince the obyones and quadrunners to do the same thing, though. Good luck.
I apologize if I contributed with some good information on the ABS debate over here. Had I driven a Chevy you guys would have probably appreciated it.
What a great tactic- stir up trouble, then delete yourself out of it! Don't believe me, read a few posts back where people are addressing his posts, but his posts aren't there! He just did the same thing on our Tacoma vs. Ranger board!
Don't worry, guys, this time I'm gone for good. What a stupid waste of time...
cowboyjohn
zero weight when comparing to a street and or off road vehicle.
Race cars run in controlled environments. The equipment on them
is built specifically for the environment they run in. Given that
threshold breaking is the status quo. On the street we contend with
oil, diesel fuel, water, sand, dogs, cats and whatever else is thrown
at us on less than ideal streets. A racetrack is a controlled environment
to some extent. ABS is excellent for the unexpected. I am glad to have it
(except for serious off roading). ABS can be inefective when the driver
is not used to it's operation. My wife freaked out when I took her to get used
to its operation. I had her nail the brakes in sand so she would feel the modulation.
After a couple of passes she held her foot strong and was no longer afraid to
nail the brake if needed.
You can be the best threshold breaker in the world, but you WILL NOT be able to adjust
up to 50 times a second for such things as road condition, warped rotors, brake fade or any
number of factors that are constantly changing in a street driven vehicle. Remember
race cars are practically re built every race. All critical components are checked and
or replaced. If you want to threshold break here in Southern California, please let me know
so I can stay behind and away from you.
That is a fact that the IIHS researchers have found. We can discuss WHY this is, but the fact will not change.
Please present evidence that will contradict the findings of IIHS and I will then change my mind about ABS.
End of story.
This is a Silverado board, let's stick to Silverados and put the Tundra posts on a Tundra board.
Mike L
Do you know quad had a 99 Z71 and now has a 2500 Dmax?
Isn't smith53 a friend of that weird guy with a red Yukon? Now what was his name?.....
Are there more cars on the road with ABS than without ABS?
Were the road conditions a contributing factor to higher deaths in cars with ABS?
Do cars with ABS save more lives in slippery roads than cars without ABS?
Do cars with ABS save more lives on dry roads than cars without ABS?
Was the data obtained from areas of the country where the road conditions are not favorable for cars with ABS?
I do not like to just look at the final numbers from any research, but I like to look at how they got to those numbers.
It is amazing how the "numbers" can be tweeked sometimes, or the data obtained be limited, in order to get the results that you want to see.
As for the rest of us, I think that we would like to see PF delete the last 100 worthless posts (this one included) and help us stay on topic and keep this site usefull...(if you've forgotten, that's for discussing Chevy Silverado Problems and the solutions and experiences related to).
new pcv valve
-Eric
-Mark
Took my truck in for a couple of squeaks at the
top of the doors and the clunk on take off.
The service department had the truck done before
it was promised and the squeaks are gone.
They did have to order the new nickel plated
youke for my drive shaft, but that was expected.
I also posted your TSB on the oil consumption board.
Ray T.
http://www.c5registry.com./2k2z06/page5.htm
Tom
Engine Knock on Cold Start
1999-2002 Chevrolet and GMC C/K Pickup and Utility Models
2002 Cadillac Escalade (2WD)
with 4.8L, 5.3L or 6.0L Engine (VINs V, T, U -- RPOs LR4, LM7, LQ4)
Some of the above vehicles may exhibit an engine knock noise that begins in the first 19,000-24,000 km (12,000-15,000 mi) of use. The knock noise is most often noticed during initial start-up and typically disappears within the first 5-30 seconds (may last longer in extreme cold temperatures). The noise is usually more noticeable on the initial start-up when the temperature is below 10°C (50°F) and may be more pronounced on the first cold start following a long trip.
This noise may be caused by an interaction between carbon that has formed on the piston, the piston motion and the cylinder wall. GM Powertrain Engineering, and an analysis of engines with this condition, has confirmed that the noise is not detrimental to the performance, reliability or durability of the engine. THIS NOISE DOES NOT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE LONGEVITY OF ANY OF THE ENGINE COMPONENTS.
Important
At this time, attempts to repair this condition by replacing the engine assembly or pistons is not recommended.
Please share the information found in this bulletin with customers who inquire about this condition. In the event they have additional questions or concerns, please advise your Area Service Manager.
Bob
Oby, Yea another tidbit TSB from GM covering their butts on the knock syndrome. But surprised that they included the 2002 production run models too, well maybe not so surprised based on the C5Registry board and what their engineers had to say to the related knock issue in the Vettes. Still wish I could afford one of those Z06's though, that is one kick [non-permissible content removed] car for the money!
Ray T.
Have had the clunking sound at acceleration from stop since shortly after buying truck and have taken truck in for such before. Chevy dealer did do the fluid flush and change as recommended by GM TSB---problem was better---but still existed---Chevy dealer said nothing else could be done.
Within the past few weeks the clunking has become more pronounced, to the point where just last night my wife commented on it. This morning---about 5 minutes after I made a mental note to call the dealer today to make an appointment to check out the clunk ---I was driving to work when as I was starting from a stop the clunk occurred as is typical and immediately thereafter a loud whining sound erupted. The acceleration slowed markedly.
I stopped and then attempted to turn around. During this manuever I noticed that the truck would not go into reverse--(luckily I could go forward and turn around in a culdasac(sp?). The whining continued for a few minutes and then stopped. However, from a stop the truck would no longer shift into second gear until the RPMs had reached over 2500rpm.
Made it to the dealer---he noted that they now have a new fix for the clunk --a nickle covered part that costs 300.00.
Dealer called this afternoon and says I have lost reverse, second and fourth gears and asked permisson to go into trans to evaluate. He also noted that this is consistent with a "sun shell" falling apart---cost 1500.00-1800.00 to repair.
Any one else had this problem? And does this sound like it might be related to the clunk(that has been known since my warranty period and getting worse for the past few weeks)?
Many thanks.
Robert
-- Don