Jeep Liberty

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Comments

  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    Correction- Escape and Tribute, 2 model-years.

    Liberty 4 months.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    My decision speaks for itself HOTCOFFEE... I bought the Liberty over the Xterra. That's proof enought that my knowledge is broader. :)

    Kidding aside... I visit other forums too but just to observe and I really don't chime in too much. Your obsession with the Liberty is obvious since you have visited this forum over five times this day alone. If you want, I'll let you drive mine for a day. Poor Johnny!!!
  • hvan3hvan3 Member Posts: 630
    I recently saw the new 2002 Honda CRV at the California Auto Show.

    Between the two SUVs, I think the Liberty is way better value and better performance than the CRV.

    You guys did well choosing Liberty.

    PS
    I don't own a Liberty nor do I intend on buying one.
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    I drove one for a whole afternoon- I don't need to drive yours.

    But thanks-

    Now I've been here 6 times- how much regret does that convert to??
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    image


    ...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern on Thursday. Hope to see you there!


    http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/jeepchat.html

  • marspamarspa Member Posts: 2
    I have a silver select-trac 4x4 Liberty Sport, auto, offroad package, 4500 miles. Overall, I am very pleased with the build quality, paint job, ride, interior. Took a trip from Texas to Arkansas, put 2000 miles on it. Drove fantastic. Being a completely new vehicle, I was expecting a few bugs.

    Problems so far:
    1. Squeeky windows on rolling up: Silicone will help rid you of the squeek.

    2. Fan belt noise on start up: Replaced belt(warranty).

    3. Wind noise coming from front passenger window at highway speed: Haven't pinpointed it yet. Suspect antenna or noise seepage thru window. Possible fix: Vent shades, don't laugh, wax antenna.

    4. Annoying noise from rear. Lube the rear door latch and lower guide with white grease or petroleum jelly.

    5. Clunk from rear when approaching a stop. I noticed this, asked dealer, could not duplicate. Still happens, but sporadically. Suspect transmission shifting back into 1st. Usually happens when I've accelerated quickly then stopped quickly. Plan on keeping an eye on it.

    6. Rear seats fold flat enough for me.

    7. NO wheel shudder. Alignment is fine.

    8. Gas mileage roughly 17mpg with AC on all the time. Live in Texas.

    9. Not really impressed with the 5-star service, but it will do.

    10. Don't have horizontal roof rails so no roof noise and I suspect that is why jeep left them out.

    11. Select-trac 4x4 works great.

    12. Brakes could be a little better (ie, stops take a little longer than I like). Have to remember this thing weighs in over 4000lbs and its not the little hatchback I got rid of. I just leave a little more room to stop.

    13. HAS PLENTY OF POWER. For those of you who want a sports car, go buy a sports car.

    14. Did not care much for brushed aluminum parts of LTD, that's why I got the sport, however, all one color (black) was a little boring. Just installed a carbon fiber overlay on dash, around radio, climate controls, shifter, power window buttons, horizontal strip across dash. Looks very sharp. For those interested: Exoticwooddash.com. Different kits from $100-350. Comes in different wood tones also.

    Thanks for reading. MARSPA
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I just read yesterday's messages, and had to add in a couple of my own experiences. Most people have good experiences with Toyota products, but I haven't. On the other hand, I haven't had any problems with my Wrangler, which is a '98 and has over 90,000 miles on it. My good experiences with the Wrangler does keep me coming back to look at the Liberty, even though I don't need the Liberty's excellent off-road handling (that's why I have the Wrangler).

    I'm looking for both performance and comfort, but I've been driving trucks of various sorts for so long, my ideas of comfort tend to be different than those driving luxury cars... Mainly I want a daily-driver good in the snow, good on the highways, can go up steep grades (sea level to 6,000 feet) daily without tranny problems, who's air conditioning won't conk out when I drive through Baker in 106 degree weather, and that I can put 200,000 miles or more on without heavy maintenance costs (I drove the Tacoma 42,000 miles last year, and it sat for 3 months because of the snow). Economy is important, but after a year with that Taco, it isn't as important as comfort. I will wait and put up with it, if I have to, rather than buy something that isn't much better, or can't handle my hard commute.

    So I keep lookingcoming back to the Liberty!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Before I bought the Liberty I was thinking about buying a Subaru wagon. I test drove one and found the acceleration lacking. Then I realized that I would have to get something with a higher ground clearance because of the heavy snows in NE PA. I decided on the Liberty and I can understand why you keep going back to it. I intend to put the Bridgestone Blizzak type tires on it in November. I understand these tires will transform the vehicle into something akin to a snowmobile on wheels.
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    Enjoy the Jeep. I am glad you have had better luck than me with them.
  • junaidjunaid Member Posts: 18
    I am having a hard time deciding between the Liberty Ltd 4*4 and Freelander S. I know that the freelander costs a few thousand more but has the advantages of steptronic, HDC, good looks and the Land Rover name on the hood. But Liberty seems to have more powerful engine, better ground clearance, better cargo space and low range transfer case. The competition seems to be tough, all your thoughts and views in this regard are most welcome.
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    When I first read about it, I thought it would be cool to have a legendary Land Rover 4x4 as a mini-ute. Then I found out it was basically an Escape at off road situations with a higher price. No thanks.

    Maybe other countries will get things like a low range transfer case, etc. I do really like the HDC system though. Mind you, putting the Jeep in 4Lo and the transmission in 1st will almost accomplish the same thing. You just have to trust the vehicle, which is a little scary when you're staring down a steep hill with a turn at the bottom.
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    If you go thru the Liberty Problems forum, you'll notice that a lot of the questions are geared towards price, etc. Not many "real" problems. No where near the Escape/Tribute problem forum.

    -mad
  • huck7huck7 Member Posts: 16
    If you are like me and cannot get enough of reading KJ reviews, here is one for you.

    www.cars.com/carsapp/usatoday/? szc=86004&srv=parser&act=display&tf=/features/mvp/jeep/liberty/liberty_overview

    Note, you must first join the URL back together (.../? + szc...) since I was not allowed by the system to post any "word" over 115 characters.

    Huck
  • basepro09basepro09 Member Posts: 91
    I went to the nhtsa.org website yesterday and found that the Liberty got it's rollover rating. Well it got a two star rating out of five, five being the best. Not very good, but I think they said that the rating is like, let's say you're driving and you go off the street and hit a pot hole or ditch that you're more likely to rollover than someone in a 3 star or four star rating vehicle. Now I'm not sure if I understood this right, but I'm pretty sure.

    Matt
  • arjay1arjay1 Member Posts: 172
    As the owner of a 1999 LR Discovery I can attest to some of the features. The HDC (Hill Decent Control) is cool but I agree with Vin_Weasel, low range and 1st gear works about the same. The only difference is that HDC also applies the brakes. It is neat to experience.
    The most effective, and a feature that the Freelander has, is 4ETC. This is 4 wheel Electronic Traction Control. This thing is amazing. I take the Discovery off-road regularly and the others I go with all have Jeep products. In low traction climbing situations, none of them can match the Discovery. The 4ETC just keeps shifting power to the wheel or wheels with traction. It's a great hi-tech alternative to a locker of any kind, works on all 4 wheels and is standard from the factory.
    The Freelander will have 4ETC. Even though there is no low-range, I would put this vehicle against almost any other SUV just based on this. The other mini-utes are not even in the same league. Is this one in the league of the Liberty?, not for everything. It won't have the towing ability (1600 lbs versus 5000)and not as much ground clearance (7.3 inches versus 9.2). I am not bashing the Liberty, I am considering adding one to the stable. I would consider the Freelander if towing capacity is not a need. I would bet that the Freelander can go 99% of the places the Liberty can, even without low range. That ETC is amazing.
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    2 very different animals.
  • hartmanhartman Member Posts: 4
    Hi all. Has anyone bought a Liberty through Jeep Wharehouse in Indiana? Interested in any experiences with them. Looking for a Liberty, but so far, my local dealers aren't working out too well. Looked at Jeep Wharehouse's web page and it looked quite interesting. Any info appreaciated.

    Jon
    Future Liberty owner - hopefully
  • basepro09basepro09 Member Posts: 91
    Everyone must be out driving their Liberty's, because no one writes in here as much as they used to.

    Matt
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    But I am not driving my Liberty :( I am working.
  • bugsybugsy Member Posts: 1
    i did not order the tow package with my 4wd
    sport but now i need to.is the dealer the best bet? msrp for the receiver is $179 + install
  • rmk17rmk17 Member Posts: 16
    I've been reading the board faithfully, although I plead guilty to not posting recently. I have about 1200 miles on my Liberty and have been pretty happy so far. I was a little annoyed because my check engine light came on twice in the span of three weeks! The first time the service department did nothing, the second time they replaced a "Celluloid Pack" in the tranny. Supposedly the light was not a "driveability" problem, but hopefully all of it is behind me now! I have a big trip coming up this weekend from Chicago to Athens, OH, and I can't wait for the drive.

    Ryan
    '02 JLL Patriot Blue, ABS, Butt Warmers
  • ericbwayericbway Member Posts: 19
    I have a Liberty on order, Patriot Blue, ABS, Sunroof, Side Air bags, and I cant wait. But the ship date was moved last week from October 19th (Dang) to November 2nd. Daimler Chrysler said it was cause of a tire delay, my dealer said it was Sunroof delay. All I know is I AM DELAYED!!!!!!!!!
    Is anyone else in a holding pattern as well?
  • cwnevadacwnevada Member Posts: 10
    Hi, I've been lurking on this list for several days, I finally got through all 1900+ messages. It was well worth the time! I have found this list to be a GREAT asset! Thank you all!

    Currently own an 89’ Chevy Silverado PU, Ext Cab 2wd. I have 160K miles on her, and they all have been trouble free. I never thought I could put this many miles on an American made vehicle without major repairs. Luck-of-the-draw I guess. But I did take care of her.

    I don’t care for the regular passenger type cars. They are kind of boring. No, let me rephrase that. They are boring! I like vehicles that have a utility value, ones that allow you to do things, or go places that regular cars are unable too.

    Spotted a Jeep liberty a-week or so ago, and it really caught my eye! Hence my reason for reading all the posts on this list. I wanted to gather as much info as possible (problems - likes - dislikes - alternatives) before make a decision to purchase this particular SUV.

    I visited our local (Las Vegas, NV) Jeep dealer three times . Two were on a Sunday-to avoid the salespeople. Several of the Lib’s were unlocked, so I got the opportunity to take a close inspection. The interior & exterior fit and finish were impressive! Couldn’t find anything in the interior that looked to be a future source of rattles. The dash looked to be constructed of high quality material, nice-and-tight, and well appointed. On the third visit, I went to pickup a brochure. They were out. So I asked to take a test drive (Sport 4wd, V6, A/C, Off-Road pkg., Tow pkg., Sun Roof, No ABS). Armed with the info gleamed from this list, I put her through her paces. The V6 supplied surprising power up a 5 mile grade (A/C on). No wind noise @ 80 mph. The rack and pinion steering was precise, and at speeds >70, a quick movement of the wheel made her feel top heavy. No pull to right during straight driving or heavy breaking. The ride was quite and smooth. I especially liked the tight turning radius.

    Wow, this is a nice set of SUV! Didn’t get to try any off-road stuff but, what I’ve read so-far is that it’s no slouch on the trails.

    Ok, (sorry for such a long post) I like this one allot! Now I have to look at the comparable competition - Nissan X-terra & Pathfinder.

    Please keep posting!
  • lovethosesuvslovethosesuvs Member Posts: 95
    I know you're a Chevy owner, but don't omit the Escape from your consideration...
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    The Escape is simply as car dressed as an SUV. It's been plagued with numerous recalls and the ride is quite tinny. It doesn't even have a low gear in the transfer case! DUHHHHH!!! The Liberty will smoke the Escape away. It's also BORING looking... like a scaled down Explorer. If you want, have a look at its sister the Mazda Tribute... at least its better looking. But it's the same underneath the skin.
  • basepro09basepro09 Member Posts: 91
    my foot caught the molding on the bottom of the door frame. You know the little plastic piece with ribs on it. Anyway it came up. So I attempted to put it back on realizing that it should just snap in, but it didn't go down in the middle, so I pulled it up and a piece had broken or fallen off. So I'm going to take it in to get fixed next week. It's not a big problem, but I'd like it to be perfect.

    Matt
  • lovethosesuvslovethosesuvs Member Posts: 95
    I have mine. I am not an offroader so the Escape is perfect for me. There is not one right vehicle for everyone. Mine has not had any problems. Look at Jeep's reliability record--which is just as bad as the INITIAL recalls with the Escape. If you want a cleaner record overall, then neither of us is right and we should have probably bought a Toyota or a Honda.
  • huck7huck7 Member Posts: 16
    I ordered a brochure from the jeep liberty website and what they sent was a compilation of reviews from various magizines. The surprising thing was that the reviews were, as far as I could tell, unedited. They covered the good, the bad, and the ... well there really is no ugly, but they were pretty objective.


    The KJ website is http://www.jeep.com/liberty/index.html .


    Huck

  • huck7huck7 Member Posts: 16
    Has anyone chosen (or seen) any Liberty's with either the Dark Garnet Red or Salsa Red paintjobs?
  • hayleysmom1hayleysmom1 Member Posts: 2
    I am in the process of trying to get a deal on a 4 year lease for a Liberty LTd. with G pkg. with side airbags, heated seats, sunroof and maybe ABS. I would like to know what type of leasing rates people might be getting on a similar lease.
    We are trading in a 7 year old Accord as part of the deal. I was given a rate of $294.00 without ABS. Is this a good rate? Also I have gotten different opinions on ABS. Are they necessary???
  • junaidjunaid Member Posts: 18
    I think the closest rival to Liberty IMHO is the freelander atleast in the V6 Ltd. If freelander had cost couple of thousand less than liberty it would have been a sure winner.
  • accountstudentaccountstudent Member Posts: 11
    We have a dark garnett red (purple) Lib and love it! I've only seen our color once in 4 months. Look at the current month's edition of SUV magazine and check out the custom yellow paint job on their test model-- way cool.
  • norwegianbluenorwegianblue Member Posts: 3
    I am also waiting but no delays noted so far. Mine is Patriot Blue but has off-road pkg. so tires would be a little different (has sunroof too). I would think A LOT of people would be affected if tires were causing a delay! Last I checked the status code for mine was D1 and the VIN has been assigned. I expect it to be built next week with a ship date around Nov. 1st. Hang in there, I think it will be worth the wait!
  • cwnevadacwnevada Member Posts: 10
    The Escape looks to be a nice vehicle, but I don't think it's was designed for the off-road enthusiast. I stopped by the Nissan dealer today and picked up several brochures (X-Terra & Pathfinder). Will be reading them this evening.

    The Jeep dealer is still out of Liberty brochures. I ordered one from Jeep’s site. Hope to get the same one that huck7 referred to in #1986.

    Has anyone read the article that reviewed the Liberty running the Rubicon Trail? I did several searches but couldn’t find it. I would like to know how well it performed.

    I’ll give the Freelander a look.
  • ver2us1ver2us1 Member Posts: 36
    The Jeep Liberty is able to do a little more than the Escape if you are interested in climbing over a few rocks but don't fool yourself into thinking it is meant for true off-roading. If you are talking gut-wrenching, bouncing off the ceiling, real off-roading your Liberty will be in pieces in no time - unless you are just playing with off-roading you need to check into a vehicle built for true off-roading....like a Hummer!
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    Any questions about the Xterra, I'd be happy to discuss on Xterra board.

    You'll find a lot of happy owners there.

    I went through the Liberty/Xterra/others shopping several months ago. Ended up with Xterra.

    Your needs may be different.
  • arjay1arjay1 Member Posts: 172
    Have you ever been offroad in a Hummer? It is like driving an RV, those things are huge.
    The trail you are on better be wide as a barn to fit the thing. In addition, if you get it stuck you need a tractor to pull it out, they weigh A LOT!
    People are infatuated with them because of the military background and the size. They can churn through deep water and mud but they are far from nimble.
    I gaurantee you one thing.
    I could start with a Jeep Wranger, Cherokee, Liberty or Land Rover Discovery and build an off-road vehicle that could beat the Hummer in every way, bar none. By the way, I bet I could do it without spending the $75,000 that the Hummer would cost you.
  • lc2001lc2001 Member Posts: 1
    About the only aspect of the Liberty I find unacceptable is the space behind the rear seats. According to Jeep this is 29 cu ft ... Xterra is 44 cu ft. Current Liberty owners -- do you find this to be okay in everyday use?
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    There is a big difference behind the seats.

    The Liberty has a lot of vertical room.

    The X has okay rear seat leg room, but the Liberty has a bit more- digging in to the rear cargo area.

    I like the space- the deck is high though, due to tuck under spare (which is preferable in a rear collision).
  • mellismellis Member Posts: 150
    Interesting "opinion" you posted regarding the Liberty's off-road ability. Do you own one? Have you ever sat in one? Have you driven a Liberty off-road? Just wondering what you are basing your opinion on - heresay or experience?

    A Liberty OWNER
  • cwnevadacwnevada Member Posts: 10
    ver2su1 - “True off-roading”. Yes! My definition of the true off-roading vehicle is; an SUV of the type that would be an its element on the trails, washed-out roads, dry/ wet washes or just picking a line across the desert. I wouldn’t attempt any of this at speeds much faster then a brisk walk. PLUS, it must have enough power to pull a small camp trailer. A Jeep Wrangler would be perfect for the off-road stuff, but I don’t think (know) if they can pull much (trailer), and they don’t have much cargo area and comfort in regular transportation needs. The Lib & Xterra look to fill-the-bill.

    Hope that I am not asking for too much!
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    Either will suit your needs.

    The Liberty: Has more horsepower (than non Supercharged Xterra), Has a flashier dash, Has a power sunroof as an option, has fulltime 4wd as option.

    The Xterra: Has more rear cargo space, ABS and limited slip standard, can get a 5 speed already (need to wait on Liberty). (Can get nice Leather aftermarket).Lower price when fully loaded. Nissan dependability.

    Both: Low range gearing, good looking exteriors, very off-road capable.

    TIP: If you like the Wrangler better (in general) than the Grand Cherokee- The Xterra is more your style. If you like the Grand Cherokee more than the Wrangler- the Liberty is more your style. I've had a Wrangler and a G.C. and that is my finding. Hope it helps.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I find the Liberty rear compartment to be adequate for every day needs. I figured the compromise is the fact that the rear passengers have more leg room. When the seats are folded the space is I believe around 68 cubic feet. If ride is your concern, go with the Liberty. The Xterra ride has been described by the press as crude and truck like. The Liberty has received accolades for its sedan, quiet like ride. I've driven the Xterra and though it is a great truck, I'd never want to own one. The Liberty's reliability and solidity will definitely be better than previous Jeep launches. Just read their brochure and see the section regarding the factory. It's the same technology used to build Mercedes. I've had mine for 3 months, have close to 4,000 trouble free miles. Tight as a drum, quiet... a really nice truck that rides down the highway like a tall sedan. You CAN'T say that for the Xterra.
  • bgolfvbgolfv Member Posts: 10
    I have seen a Salsa Red Lib and ordered one with G package, ABS , and six CD changer. I don't have the vin number yet but it's suppose to be shipped on the first of Nov. Also order it with the high contrast interior. Maybe I'll post a pic when I receive it.
    Buy the way does anyone know how to get the vin number in advance?
  • kwalker2kwalker2 Member Posts: 2
    I've been shopping for a Liberty in the St. Louis area and it seems like the dealers are all told to not take anything less than sticker since the Liberty's are supposedly moving so fast.

    Anyone else with this experience? Did you pay sticker for yours? How'd you haggle with these people? Heeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllpp!!!!!!!
  • hotcoffeehotcoffee Member Posts: 218
    Liberty is more car like in its ride - but there most certainly is an exageration of the negative for the Xterra's ride.

    It was a VERY pleasant surprise. I think the ride is much better than my old Grand Cherokee- Yes, stiffer, but more solid, and less mushy. I don't want a limmo ride- never have. Off-road it feels a lot like my Wrangler did- which I like

    My wife has a Mitsubishi Eclipse and LOVES to drive the Xterra.

    I think the Liberty will be dependable- but it cannot be argued, it is not proven yet. The Xterra got the SUV of The Year Award from Motor Trend. And all mechanical catagories are excellent, or above average in Consumer reports.

    I also like a spare mounted under the vehicle. The lowering mechanism on the Xterra is easy to use and actually really cool.

    Nothing wrong with the Liberty- I like the opening rear window by remote- that's cool. I am a big fan of Selec-Trak full time 4 wheel drive- you can leave your truck in 4wd all winter wet and dry pavement... If Nissan would incorporate a similar mechanism in the X it would be great.

    There's a feeling of quality, and customer service that I have received with my 2 Nissans that has lacked greatly with mt 2 Jeeps. I am glad I chose my Nissan.

    So go forth and find which truck suits you best- you can't go wrong. (except you'll get only marginal mileage on either one). They are so vastly different... in image and reality.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    about how difficult it seems to be for DC to make a profit. A suggestion:

    Make more items standard, and offer fewer options. In other words, streamline the production aspect of making vehicles.

    For example, if Jeep would offer just one 4wd system, instead of three, and drop 2WD models, it would go a long ways towards making production easier and cheaper. There are many other items, that currently are options but could be made standard too

    In addition to simplifying production, and thus making the vehicles cheaper, they would also be far more attractive in the marketplace.

    Bob
  • lyngolyngo Member Posts: 28
    That's the first I've heard of any dealer charging sticker. I live in SoCal and you would think it'd be higher priced out here but it isn't. If you pay much more than $500 over invoice, I'd be surprised. The way you get that deal tho is to deal exclusively with the Internet Fleet Sales Manager (or some variation of that title) Ask for him/her specifically. Have you tried getting a quote online?? That's really the best way to go because they will set you up with a local dealer whose job it is to offer the lowest price possible. Usually at or near dealer invoice...saving more than a thousand to two off MSRP. I ended up going through the dealer that autobytel.com set me up with...best offer but there are many car buying services online. Do NOT go to the dealer and deal with whatever lot rat approaches you...you won't get the best deal that way. Deal with the fleet mgr...tell him you're getting quotes from other internet sales managers and I'll bet you'll pay close to invoice. I bought in August so maybe things have changed but at least try that route.

    Good luck! I bought a fully loaded Limited (off-road, tow, sunroof) for $26,434...sticker was $28,921 (I believe) so as you can see, I saved thousands. If you go with the Sport, the savings will be even more...the Limited seems to be in higher demand.

    As for cargo space...I don't even use all that's available. I'm very happy with the size of the Liberty and have not needed any more than is standard...yet. I have over 1000 miles on it and couldn't be happier. It *is* tight as a drum...no squeaks/rattles. And several owners have off roaded it with impressive performance. In fact, one owner pulled out a few Cherokees so it definitely can play with the bigger boys :)

    Check out photos at www.jeepsunlimited.com The Liberty forum...don't mean to advertise another forum but there's always room for more than one...I come here and go there all the time. Here's a link to some impressive Liberty off roading pics...the photo of the Liberty with the tow strap behind the Cherokee is the Lib pulling the Cherokee out of the mud tho it looks like it's being pulled...you may need to copy/paste the url onto your browser :)

    http://forums.jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/001751.html
  • richardcoulsonrichardcoulson Member Posts: 88
    Does anyone have the side air bags and anti-lock brakes? All the Liberty's I have seen at the dealers do not have either of these two options. I am close to making the plunge. One dealer has offered invoice and another $100 over invoice.
    Thanks.
  • lilshuglilshug Member Posts: 12
    The most I carry in the cargo area is my 30+ pounds of laundry every week. On a day to day basis it is more than sufficient unless you have tote a ton of stuff everyday. Then perhaps you should be looking at another vehicle alltogether. Fit and finish of the Liberty is superb. I love how it drives, how it turns, and the feel of the seats (especially when I turn the heat on in my Limited...yeah baby!)
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