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Pontiac GTO



  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    Looks like I and several others here have owned
    Z28s. I have owned 5. Yep, 5.
    Currently own a '87 IROC LB9 5 speed, 3.45 rearend, 4 wheel disc car. 205K miles.
    Lots of Fbody and LS1 experience on this thread.

    Your Z28 is a auto so it does not pull down the big HWY numbers like the 6 speed cars do.
    28 mpg HWY is not unheard of with these cars.

    Like the G35 a lot. Looked at one yesterday with the new 2003.5 interior. Stunning car.

    Gto weighs about 200 lbs more than G35.
    High revving 3.5L V6 cant't hold a candle to a
    the torque monster 5.7L LS1/6.

    We also haven't talked much about the large rear seat area. This may be the GTO's ace in the hole.
    It will help a lot of people justify the car.
    Far more utility than the Fbod and Mustang. And the G35. Or any coupe I can think of save the Mercedes CLK at about 50K.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque.

    One would think that extra gears will help acceleration but it depends on the ratios and the spread.

    Extra shifts can slow a car down.

    Also '83 Monte Carlo SS w/ 3 speed auto was quicker in the quarter than the '84 with the 4 speed auto.
    Even though 4 speed had a much deeper 1st gear.

    But in most cases you are right a properly designed 5 speed auto should have the edge on a 4 speed with a deep 1 st gear and a wide space to 2nd.

    Some, like the inefficient Infiniti 5 speed sap more hp than the GM/BMW unit.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    As far as there being a lot of plastic crud on the GTO the Camaros fenders and doors were plastic.
    And you could option a Camaro well into the 30K range.
    And there was no ISS or any semblence of interior room in that car.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    When the Mustang GT was the car to have from '83-89 I only saw 2 tests with automatics. The earlier cars even had different hp ratings. 200hp for the manual and 180hp for the auto.
    Many people bought the auto thinking it was
    quick, because that is what the car mags said.
    The autos also had much taller final drives.

    I whacked many a Mustang in my '84 Z28 HO 5 speed.

    Good to see the GTO will have similiar gearing and performance for both the auto and manual.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    I think the SS 35th anniversary convertibles were up to about 40K.
    Mustang Cobra convertible is 37K
    And we all know how crappy that interior is in comparison to the GTO's or G35's.

    Intersting story on the Camaro. LS1 was introduced in '98 model year and had the cat cons up near the manifolds. Hump in passenger footwell was no longer needed.
    GM didn't want to spend the money to retool the floorplan so they left the hump.

    Looking forward to the GTO as the heir apparent to the fbods.

    GM seriously needs to get back into performance.
    I have had it with trucks and SUVs.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    b4z... You wrote, "GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque."

    Wonder if it really isn't more a case of GM refuses to design and build one, prefering to stay behind the times?

    Check out the October 2003 issue of Motor Trend. Has a comparison of the Chevy Silverado SS (6.0L V8) vs the Dodge Ram 1500 SLT Hemi (5.7L). Cheapskate GM uses a 4-speed automatic in a truck with an MSRP of $40,010 (as tested). DB-Chrysler uses a new 5-speed automatic in a truck with an MSRP of only $27,820 (as tested).

    The Dodge 5-speed AT is being used with a 5.7L Hemi engine that produces 345 HP (@5400 RPMs) and 375 lb-ft of torque (@4200 RPMs). Those numbers seem close to the GTO.

    Shame on GM for falling behind in AT technology. GM of Europe has been selling BMW 5-speed automatics for years. GM didn't decide to use one of their own sophisticated 5-speed ATs in USA until the recent Cadillac CTS. GM wonders why it loses market share?
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    the 5-speed automatic in my TL-S does not really make the car much better. There is little difference between the 4th and 5th gears. They are really both overdrive gears. Shifting from 5th to 4th does not produce much better acceleration.

    And to top it all off, my TL-S' tranny broke after 6,100 miles.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    GM has a 6 speed auto that will be ready in less than 2 years.
    It will have 4 gears below 1.00 and 2 overdrive gears.
    Now that will provide some great acceleration.
    They also have a 6 speed FWD transaxle they are developing with FOrd
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,967
    "GM doesn't have a 5 speed auto that can handle the LS1's torque."

    just wanted to point out that my father's 2500HD diesel GMC pickup has an Allison-made 5-speed auto. Can that tranny be used on the LS1? No. But that statement above is still false. OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    Not relative to the discussion.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,967
    not being relevant seems to be a very common occurence around here, so no biggie. Just thought that having correct information might be desirable. I know I like to be correctly informed. So, if anything, the statment could be ammended to read "GM currently doesn't offer a 5-speed auto that can mate to the LS1," because they certainly have one that can "handle" it, its just not compatible with it. I can listen to alot of negative comments about GM quality, but they should at least be correct.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    ruski... Keep in mind that your 260 HP Acura 3.2TL Type S uses a very low numerical final drive. For MY2002 it was 4:428:1. It thus has great initial acceleration off the line. 0-60 mphs in around 6.5 seconds or less. But it then needs the ultra deep 5th (overdrive) which is 0.47:1 to achieve great fuel economy, which it does. The '02 EPA city/highway figures were 19/29 mpg! This overdrive is a deep as a Corvette's. They need an intermediate overdrive 4th (0.653) to bridge the gap between 3rd and 5th.

    1st 2.563 x 4.428 = 11.348964 overall
    2nd 1.551
    3rd 1.021
    4th 0.653
    5th 0.470 x 4.428 = 2.08116 overall

    1st to 5th overall spread is a very good 5.45. Compare that to Camaro 4-speed AT.

    You can't do this with a 4-speed.

    Notice how your car gets great highway fuel economy with blistering acceleration? That is what good gearing and more gears can do.

    Thinking GM used to make a decent 2-speed AT. Friend of mine had one in a '65 Impala. GM used to use it on a ton of powerful cars. Maybe GM should bring it back? Save them a few bucks? :)
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    I am actually disgusted with my TL-S. Tranny broke at 6,100 miles. The car produces weird hickups. MPG... I don't think it is that great. I only get 250 miles per tank, all highway. On a regular basis lesser cars give me a hard time, especially if they catch me doing 85 in 5th gear - the tranny will not downshift to 3rd, it will only go down to 4th. I have to first slow down to 80mph, then force it to shift into 3rd. That helps, but for a short time. I did just that today - I managed to outrun a Camry and waved bye-bye to him, only to see him come back. Granted I did not want to take it much past 100mph out of fear of cops, plus my exit was coming up, but a Camry???
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    ruski... to hear about your problems. I took a 3.2TL Type S out for a nice test drive back in '01. She was a blast to drive. Powerful off the line and at high speeds. Think I had her up to 100 mph a couple times. And due to the deep overdrive, she didn't need too many RPMs to cruise all day long at highway or better speeds. An efficient and effective high speed crusier with great line manners. I was quite impressed (for a FWD car). Think your car might be an exception. What has the dealership's mechanic(s) done to fix your issues?

    My '96 Impala SS could've used a numerically lower 1st gear and a numerically lower final drive. She would've benefitted immensely from a 6-speed manual (or even 5-speed automatic).
  • avemanaveman Posts: 122
    I think gm is wise to go with the best performing most reliable trans they have at the time.I wonder how long it takes to mate a new transmission to an engine. I think the software is so complex that it takes a while to optimize.The SAturn Ion lanched with a Japanese made 5 speed that is not so quick.Honda is have transmison recalls. To lanch a quality vehicle you don't always want to be the most current.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    Since 2 doors don't seem to be popular anymore I am wondering if the GTO is around to make up for excess capacity at the Holden plant in Australia?

    Makes one wonder.

    I still like it though.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,967
    uh... you can typically drive and buy a particular model year car in the previous year. So driving an '02 in '01 is perfectly correct.

    of course, he still could have meant a CL.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • It's been over ten many have been ordered? You'd think if this car is a big hit Pontiac would be letting us all know by now. If nothing else to spur additional sales.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    Holden makes Commodores and Monaro's for both the home market as well as GM Middle East ( They added a third shift which allowed them an additional production capacity of 18k cars, which is what will go to the GTO. Sure they could export more to the US, at the cost of lower sales in their home market or to the middle east export market.

    I think the design of the GTO appeals more to the under-30 crowd than the 45+ group (which would prefer the GTO to be retro/resemble the GTO of old). I don't see many of the under-30 crowd having the $$$ to buy one at $33k, though...

  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    snakerbill... qbrozen was right. I test drove it on 11/11/01. Remember it was Veterans' Day and I had the holiday off. Test drove a ton of MY2002s that week, but I've never driven a CL. [Drove an I35t that day right before the 3.2TL Type S. No comparison. The TL-S a much more fun and exciting car.]
  • The Solstice won't work for me. I need a back seat to sell the deal to the "finance committee".

    I love the idea of a four-seat vette (GTO), but am still on the fence, pricing and build quality being the primary issues. I drive a '98 Altima SE that has been bullet proof since the day I bought it. On the other hand, I also own a '97 Bonneville that has had numerous quality issues and recalls.

    I'm resigned to waiting until there are some '04s on the lot for a while or waiting for the '05s and seeing what happens to the pricing then.

    Gee, I'd actually like to drive one first before I buy come to think of it.
  • nas43nas43 Posts: 13
    that has advance ordered an 04 GTO (43 to be exact). What I like about the car is the power (V8!), 6 speed manual, rear wheel drive, true dual exhaust, and the fact that it looks like someone can sit in the back seat and actually be comfortable (I have a wife and 2 teenagers). I'm not into retro styling. I love the look of the interior of the GTO. The exterior styling I like except the spoiler looks like it was added as an after thought. The only other cars on my short list of possibilities were the BMW 330i (with Performance package) and the Audi A4 3.0. The GTO should smoke either one, has more room, and costs less. I want a car that is fast, sounds good, looks good, but also that is comfortable inside and is built solid. I've never been interested in Japanese cars for whatever reason.
  • I'm 43 too and might have considered the GTO because its looks are'nt over the top. The problem here is that I'm not spending $35,000 on a car. I bought a Forester XT that does 0 to 60 in 5.3 seconds for $24,000 and I can drive it in the snow. $35,000 is crazy.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    Subaru has got it going on right now, but if you did a street start, the GTO would win.
    You have to rev the Subaru up and dump the clutch.
    Do that 10-20 times and you will either have no clutch or there will be parts lying on the street.
    The GTO has power all over the place and probalby only requires a 2500 rpm launch.
  • We'll see. The Forester XT is nothing like the WRX. No reving required because of the 444:1 final drive gearing. The closest comparison I can make for the Forester XT is the Buick Gran National. It's street start according to car and driver is 6.2 seconds. I don't know what the GTO's is yet. I'm not knocking the GOAT, I just think that GM should have evaluated the magic $30K limit that a lot of people ( me included) keep in mind when they buy a car.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,967
    during all this price comparison is that the goat is coming with alot of luxury built into it. Leather power seats and all that. Maybe they will offer a lower model later on to get that price below $30K. We'll see.

    I can tell you that the Forester is NOT a comfortable car and is far from luxurious. I'm not knocking it. I think its a great bargain, but we are talking about 2 completely different animals with 2 completely different purposes.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • garnesgarnes Posts: 950
    nas43 - I've got the same car ideas as you describe. Although my short list would never have ended up like yours.

    B4z - thank you. Yes, the GTO will be powerful from any situation - not just a trick launch. The pocket rockets are still quick from a roll, but nowhere near the "0 to" times. I find it amusing that these cars sometimes don't perform as well in later "comparison" tests with other cars either. The "first drive" models often test out faster. Hmmmm.
  • I am also a 43 year old family man who will have to think very hard about paying over $30k for a car.

    qbrozen - I think value is an issue. I can order a loaded '04 Mazda 6s for under $26k. Granted it has 130 less ponies under the hood, but it would have auto climate control, side air bags & curtains, real tires and some other goodies that the GTO does not. Is the GTOs extra power worth $8k more to me? I'm not so sure.

    By the way, since they are building these cars right now isn't it about time to set firm pricing?
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Performance is more, much more, than just straight-line acceleration from a standing start. 0-60 mph time is important. But so is 1/4 mile, top speed, 50-70 top gear, etc. And then there are the other equally important peformance issues: braking (performance and feel), steering, handling, ride, etc. There are the day-to-day driveability and liveability issues. Are the seats comfortable on long drives? Is the clutch too heavy? Is it easy to park? Can people get in and out of it without a hassle? Decently roomy and well-shaped trunk? Finally, there are the costs of owning and operating. Is it reliable? How much does routine maintenance cost? Insurance? How is real world fuel economy?

    Cars that do all these things well and some of them very, very well indeed are those that we all lust for. Question is whether GM/Holden can bring it to America and make all the parts work together as a team.
This discussion has been closed.